Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bladesinger Boy 12-28-04, 06:53 PM	Who do you think is the best Fighter/Mage: Eldritch Knights, Spellswords, or Bladesingers? Why, why not? _______________BAB__spell lvls prog____REQ BAB__REQ spell lvl__REQ feats Eldritch Knight . +10 . . .9 lvls . . . . . . . none . . . . .5-6 . . . . . . none Spellsword . . . .+10 . . .5 lvls . . . . . . . +4 . . . . . . 3-4 . . . . . . none Bladesinger . . . .+10 . . 5 lvls . . . . . . . +5 . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . .4 obviously there' more to consier than this, but it's a start. Are there any other Prestige classes to consider? I'm not only tryin to make sure each clas is balanced, but has it's own niche; a clear cut winner implies improper planning and playtesting. Truth be told, this is half in the pursuit of a well themed, well balaned Bladesinger but forget about that for the moment; any imbalance is one I want to solve Who's the best? You can crunch out some numbers, or talk about stuff in general, thematic/role-play difference, maybe their role in past editions, what should and should not be within their scope of power, or the increased reqs-increased power theory validity. Ah, interesting enough, instead of making character to pit against each other in an arena to test power level, can anyone come up with a well themed party of 4 PCs 3 of which are a Eldritch Knight, Spellsword, and Bladesinger? Think about niche overlap, combat role, used/less used stats, weapon and armour variety, range of skill coverage, curing and restorative ability. Heck, if you want, see if you can among friends pit fighter/mage teams against other fighter/mage teams and may the best team win. Think themes, not just stats.
Arcane Guyver 12-28-04, 07:32 PM	The best, flavor-wise, is the Bladesinger (I LOVE that picture in CW). Power-wise, I'd say the Eldritch Knight is the best. The Spellsword strikes me as a collection of abilities that'd work better as cool feats (arcane failure reduction & spell channeling).
Ravos20 12-28-04, 07:40 PM	though its not a fighter/mage type, arcane trickster is a PrC to note.
ninjarabbit 12-28-04, 07:49 PM	Hexblade
Bladesinger Boy 12-28-04, 08:35 PM	care to elaborate? What do you think makes the Hexblade so good?
Bladesinger Boy 12-28-04, 08:41 PM	double post; admin dude, smoke this post eh?
Khelvaster 12-28-04, 08:46 PM	Hexblades are good because they have that godlike curse(Uuber in non-combat campaigns with the - to skill checks. The subject of the curse doesn't know he is effected.), the two strong saves, and mettle. Mettle is only shared by the templar, and that class is unable to do arcane spells.
Shazarn 12-28-04, 11:29 PM	I like the Bladesinger, mainly because he can sing and music is cool.
loydsamthird 12-29-04, 03:37 AM	well i play a human spellsword, eldritch knight, serpent slayer that has a pretty good bab and a nice spell casting but feats is what makes this character strong. combatn brute and elusive target plus arcane strike. But you have to figure out what you want to do.
CaoSlayer 12-29-04, 03:48 AM	I personally like bards, they arent as powerful casters as eldritch knights or as powerful fighters are bladesingers and spellswords... but curiously are sighly better fighters than eldritchs (better hp, can use light armor without troubles,for an optimized building EK arent as useless at start) and this spellcasting it is way superior to the other two because have a full caster progresion... and also have a lot of skill points for non-fighting focused campaigns. of course my tittle to the best fighter/mage goes to the assasin (sneak attack and a better spell progesion than the hexblade). ;)
Inkubus 12-29-04, 07:27 AM	The Raumathari Battlemage (Fr UE) and the War Mage (DL AoM) are both cool and pretty powerful, too. Cheers, Inkubus
Shadowbane 12-29-04, 08:56 AM	I think the war mage is a very week melee caster. It has the mage BaB which is hideous. If he could buy or find a weapon with the "skill" discripter that might change things. The war mage does have ALOT of flavor though and I like that. I vote for the bladesinger He has alot of great abilities. The spellsword is cool too ( bladesinger for humans ). The eldritch knight is very strong but lacks any kind of flavor really.
Saros Stormborn 12-29-04, 10:35 AM	Hexblades are good because they have... the two strong saves Unless there is an errata floating around somewhere Hexblades only get one good save, Will. That being said I love the Hexblade and I always felt that they should have both Fort and Will as good saves.
Zilvar 12-29-04, 11:22 AM	Who do you think is the best Fighter/Mage: Eldritch Knights, Spellswords, or Bladesingers? Why, why not? Of those listed, I'm partial to the EK. It's a relatively boring class, special-wise, and has a poor hit die, but is an archtypical caster-focused fighter/mage...and that's what I like to see. There are a couple of new PrC's in Complete Arcane with a good spell progression and 3/4 BAB. Some of them might make interesting fighter/mages, but I am, at best, a non-optimal character designer. :)
ArochanoX 12-29-04, 11:23 AM	Dragonsalyer because they are so specialized in straight foward objective, but their means to achieve that objective are complex. The task is too!
Stuntman 12-29-04, 11:25 AM	I prefer the Spellsword over the Eldritch Knight. The reason is that I prefer a fighter/mage that is more fighter than mage. The EK is too much of a mage that I would rather take a straight mage than the EK. Channel spell is cool to me. Also, the reduced ASF makes the SS the only class potentially capable of using a (non-mithral) shield and not suffer ASF.
spasheridan 12-29-04, 11:34 AM	All 3 classes have something going for them. The question isn't what's the best, the question is what you want to do. Questions about the "best" class is like asking which tool is the best, the screwdriver or the hammer. Neither is best, each is suited to a differant task. When you want to hammer nails... use a hammer. When you want to screw something together, use a screwdriver. When you look at these 3 classes you realize you have 1 major question. Do you want spell caster levels or do you want mildly better melee powers. This is a thematic question really, are you a fighter who can cast spells or are you a mage who can fight. Personally I like the spellsword over the bladesinger for a fighter who can cast spells, but I like playing a mage who can fight more so I like the eldritch knight more than the spellsword.
shadow mage 12-29-04, 11:35 AM	How do you determine the best of a particular "group" of Classes and Prestige Classes when their roles are different? Bladesingers are the swashbucklers of mage/fighter (or if you're familiar with the term gish, fighter/mage) builds. High Dexterity and Intelligence and emphasis on single-weapon use make it an ideal mobile fighter who can reach some damn-near amazing AC. The biggest problem is once you pop the fun don't stop, it's really hard to get OUT of the PrC because of how awkward its spellcasting/class ability progression is. Eldritch knight was made as a purely mechanical PrC, in my opinion, as it has absolutely no flavor STANDARD. I want to stress that because any character can have flavor if you work hard enough. Anyway, the eldritch knight is a win/lose PrC because while you keep full BAB and a good Fort, you lose in that first level a spellcasting level and you’re stuck with ****-poor skills and a d6 for life the whole way through. Eldritch Knight is a good AUGMENTING PrC, not a standalone one. It doesn’t have a set niche in the mage/fighter group except as a filler between the real juicy goodies. Spellsword is a very different PrC than the bladesinger. It emphasizes heavy armor use. Hell, mithral full plate after five levels for no ASF? Sounds good to me. Furthermore, it stresses more tank-like builds, in the sense that you can hit hard, once at a time, and are sitting on the front-lines with heavier armor. Channel Spell is awesomely powerful, especially when you get to channel TWO spells (twin prismatic sprays anyone?). This is a great power-house PrC and is infinitely more common and useful than the bladesinger STRICTLY because of the flaws in the bladesinger’s terribly awkward prerequisites. I could go on with all of the classes and prestige classes, but there’s no need to. The point I’m trying to get across is that asking which of the classes/prestige classes was more powerful would be like trying to compare a ranger and a paladin. Each specializes in its own thing and only shares similarities with other similar classes/prestige classes. If you’re curious as to what the said classes/prestige classes can yield power-wise, check out the thread in my sig Character Build Spotlight: Gish. It’s got most everything you need to know about these types of builds, and a link to the original thread focusing more on class builds (by JosephKell).
1clericofgood 12-29-04, 11:55 AM	wouldn't the warforged plating be metel
Duke Lupo 01-02-05, 03:06 AM	Spellsword hands down is the best. Of course I say that having played one in a Gestalt campaign. An Elf Fighter/Sorcerer/Spellsword TWF with Arcane Strike. Heheheh
Zilvar 01-02-05, 08:14 AM	Spellsword hands down is the best. Of course I say that having played one in a Gestalt campaign. An Elf Fighter/Sorcerer/Spellsword TWF with Arcane Strike. Heheheh I've been trying to figure out (without actually tearing myself away from world of warcraft long enough to build it) if it would be possible to make a TWF Dervish with Arcane Strike. There's something conceptually awesome with the idea of getting that many attacks with Arcane Strike bonuses.
Kurama Youko 01-02-05, 12:59 PM	Eldritch Knight all the way. The skills arent as bad as someone claimed them to be, especially when your comparing them to the two classes that would most likely walk down this path. Sorcerer and Wizard, in a Forgotten Realms campaign (because those are the ones i usually play anyway.) Both could qualify for this PrC by taking one feat at first lv. Both would gain better HD than they were already getting and still maintain a straight casting superior minus one caster level. (Lets but that in to better prespective, if you considered playing a LA+1 race because of a stat bonus or whatever other reason knowing your gonna be a caster then its pretty much a the same deal in terms of spellcasting.) The skills are fairly good, sure they dont exceed what the wizard normally had but then again the Wizard nor Sorcerer had great skills to chose from in the first place. However now having Sense Motive and Ride as class skills both can take a little more of a hands on approach in social situations, discerning truth from lies though cleric or druid might still be better if present and ride is just well, think about it something has to be said for a wizard who sits atop his Phantom Steed and can preform gracious combat manuvers/casting spells without missing a step in the control of his steed. It look awesome! Ala Magic Knight! and whenever you can use money to buy the affects of a class then that immeditately brings down the value of said class. Example: way before the Spellsword came along, there was Spell Storing and Spellabsorbing weapons, i suggest getting back in touch with those abilities, and with the introduction of mithril twilight armor ASF is pretty much a thing of the past. For a transmutation focusing Sorc/Wiz I'd go Eldritch Knight, polymorph makes up for lower Hit dice rolls with con boosting monster forms as well as gives healing as if rested for a day. That means when you first cast it and assume a form any damage you had prior to that is now reduced as if you camped. Assume you took any of the feats that boost natural healing your gonna be pretty good to go.
shadow mage 01-02-05, 02:28 PM	Picking favorites like that, though, is going to leave you very badly surprised when that Fighter2/Sorcerer4/SpellswordX comes in and whips your behind. The reason I don't think you can compare them is that their roles are so damned different. It would be like comparing barbarians and druids. Similar flavor, like all three of these prestige classes, but different roles. Druids are not primary combatants (unless you're min/maxing). Barbarians are. Druids are healers, barbarians are hurters. The biggest problem me and many many others have with eldritch knight is that it's only a good prestige class mechanically. There's no flavor whatsoever. Why on earth would an eldritch knight have Sense Motive? That makes no sense, especially considering the classes taken to qualify for it. While fighter-mages are in themselves flavorful, fun little mixes, spellsword, bladesinger, dragonslayer, rauthmari battlemage or whatever it's called, all of these have flavor and substance. Eldritch knight does not. It's a great filler class for other fighter-mage builds, but not a standalone, well-rounded class in and of itself. If I want an elven-finesse character who like many of his people blend swordplay and magic? Or do I want that rare arcane-casting-dwarf who refuses to let his martial side fall behind and loves the smithing path? Or maybe I want to focus on a singular weapon and enhance it beyond belief and still grow stronger myself in the areas of casting (well, manifesting in this example) and fighting? The best case scenario, as I mentioned, is for eldritch knight as a supplement. While people love to compare numbers and mechanics, in actual role playing it's usually very hard to justify why you're taking X-feat and combining it with Y-Z abilities from classes A, B, and C, you know? If you want a mechanical answer to this question, which is better, go to the CO forum. From a role-playing aspect, though, I have to say the bladesinger is the best, since it perfectly fits the races for which it's made for, spellsword is a close second since it did a pretty good job being universal in what can take it, and eldritch knight is dead last of all other choices because it's got about as much flavor as someone taking two core classes and four prestige classes and trying to justify that as (relatively) realistic and role-playable.
Venom of the Yuan Ti 01-02-05, 02:33 PM	It really does depend on how you wnat to play them, an eldrch knight is a more powerfull spellcaster, but can't risk armour, a spellsword is a fighter with spells, the blade singer, in my opinion, falls nearer the middle.
Kurama Youko 01-02-05, 04:06 PM	I expected someone to come up with such a ignorant answer *ahem* shadowmage*ahem* there is nothing in the entire Spellsword writeup that could even lead to such a conclusion. As a person who has both played a EK and watched a equally powerful Spellsword come up in the ranks i can honestly say your claim is little more than a threat. the above poster couldnt have said it better EK = Strong Spellcaster with Martial Prowless, a Spellsword = a Fighter with a few magic tricks. a Bladesinger is pretty much the same as Spellsword but specific to elves. In martial prowess all 3 are equal, in spellcasting the EK pulls out ahead the pack. Casting in armor is not really an advantage par say its a option. Would I rather have that option or cast level levels spells? hmmm, higher level spells most defintely! Every gish build to this day that optimizes a Fighter/Mage for maximum spellcasting possibility uses Spellsword or Dragon Slayer to flush out the remainder of levels only because their first lv gives a +1 to spellcasting lol. I hardly see a Eldritch Knight losing to a Spellsword, unless the Eldritch Knight was poorly made or of a entirely different arcane casting class the EK will definitely prove the more valuable character.
shadow mage 01-02-05, 08:25 PM	Sounds like someone was offended and makes personal attacks in return without considering the logic behind other people's points. Okay then, I'll provide examples of my claims with a few arguments. (If you want the short version skip to the bottom) 1) Martial Prowess The eldritch knight has good base attack bonus, which is nice. But that's not all of what makes an effective martial combatant. Both the bladesinger and spellsword (and dragonslayer on that note) have the same base attack bonus AND higher saves and Hit Die. The spellsword in particular makes armor usage easy, and no matter how tough that eldritch knight gets it still can only remove as much Arcane Spell Failure as a set of twilight mithral armor can manage. Spellswords can sit in full plate with much less comprimise to their spellcasting than an eldritch knight can (though a bladesinger also gains the ability to ignore some arcane spell failure, which puts it above eldritch knight in usefulness in this category). Bladesingers trump both classes in AC, as they can add Intelligence to AC and are almost tailor-made for Wizard-types. Heck, bladesingers can manage an extra attack even, providing more possible uses of things like Arcane Strike than either the spellsword or eldritch knight. Comparing the classes outright damage ability, ranged and melee, boils down to what synergizes most with its other inborn abilities. Spellsword tops that list, combining an awesome class ability (channel spell) with a feat like Arcane Strike, allow it to hit harder in one shot than either the eldritch knight or the bladesinger. The eldritch knight takes second in this contest, strictly because it has more uses of Arcane Strike available, IF the feat is taken. Bladesingers are almost designed for defensive combat, with extremely high AC and an awkward ability/spellcasting level progression, and it isn't until they gain that final extra attack that they can take the eldritch knight's place in damage output, as that extra attack combined with Arcane Strike can hurt fairly bad. As you can see, martial damage output for both bladesinger and eldritch knight are highly dependent on this feat, whereas the spellsword's is not. Finally in this "category," look at the ability to take damage. The eldritch knight's d6's are not very kind to hit points, which is why bladesinger, dragonslayer (I keep throwing that in because it's very similar in nature to spellsword), and spellsword all are favored by martially-bent fighter-mages. D8's and d10's are wonders for hit points, and since the eldritch knight is the only fighter-mage prestige class (that I can think of off the top of my head) that has only ONE good save, that's another advantage for those other classes. 2) Spellcasting Ability The eldritch knight obviously takes this much...or does it? In the end, yes, an eldritch knight will have much more spellcasting levels than any of the other fighter-mage prestige classes. But most of those other fighter-mage prestige classes also provide benefits that the eldritch knight won't ever get, like the ability to ignore arcane spell failure and the ability to use spells in better ways. Sure an eldritch knight is good, but it also takes just as long to get into (7th level at the earliest) as the other prestige classes, which makes the other classes more attractive since they recieve that spellcasting level at first level where the eldritch knight does not. In the end (a high-level end most campaigns never get to mind you, but that's not the point) the eldritch knight will gain access to the highest spell levels, which is fine IF that is what the character wants. If he wants a mage who can fight, eldritch knight is nice because it provides a touch more hit points, a new good save, and some base attack bonus. If a more rounded fighter-mage is wanted, eldritch knight almost always will take a back seat and will be dipped into at the most, not relied on. 3) Role Play-ability While this comes down mostly to individual players, all fighter-mage classes have a certain amount of flavor to them. Except the eldritch knight. The bladesinger blends magic and swordsmanship for elves and is highly mobile and defensive. The spellsword is basically the "tank" of fighter-mages, with the same spellcasting advancement as a bladesinger but more more offensive and armor-friendly abilities. The eldritch knight, because of its utter lack of special abilities (except for a bonus fighter feat, fat lot of good that'll do a spellcasting character unless they want Weapon Focus for rays or somesuch), can't claim any role-play flavor at all. Dragonslayer's role playing potential is pretty obvious, as is the psionic fighter-manifesting prestige classes like the elocater and psychic weapon master. The player has to genuinely work to make an eldritch knight a role-playable character, whereas the other prestige classes have at least some of that flavor built-in. Afterall, it's hard to explain to a DM why after they've completed eldritch knight they're taking one-level dips into dragonslayer and/or spellsword (and/or bladesinger if they meet the prerequisites). In short, it's easier to justify a character wanting to become a fighter-mage/manifester through a bladesinger, dragonslayer, elocater, illithid slayer, psychic weapon master, and a spellsword (not all but most fighter-mage types) than it is to want to become an eldritch knight, especially since the only other option for true character developement (not optimization, which most people seem to be into nowadays on these forums) is in skills, and the eldritch knight suffers in that category. The other prestige classes at least have in-class abilities to help further the flavor of their character. Note: I'm not arguing that the eldritch knight is bad, not at all, but I AM arguing that it is certainly not the best since most of the other classes are more rounded and role-playable. This is the short and sweet of my argument.
runestar 01-02-05, 11:08 PM	This depends, the EK has excellent spell progression(9/10) while bladesinger and spellsword, though only have 5/10, make up for this with very nifty class abilities. The ability to (eventually) cast spells in full plate or use spellsong is often worth the slower spell acquisition, if you don't want you character to be stuck with mithril mail all the time. This ultimately would depend on how much fighter and how much mage you would want in your character.
Addi83 01-02-05, 11:33 PM	I'd just like to point out to the people who complain that the Eldritch Knight doesn't have RP flavour, that they are missing a huge point. EK has the least premade flavour, as it is merely a mechanic to make a more integrated fighter/mage. The only EK I've played with was a Drow Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight who two weapon fights with a Two Bladed Sword and has a pretty good backstory. (Granted, it's not a very high power build, though he certainly holds his own, but powerplaying has never been a huge focus in my group) The less premade flavour, the more room a player has to make up his own.
PaTRiXXX 01-03-05, 04:41 AM	Why chose one over another when one of the best Gish available has both? Fighter (or Paladin) 4 / Wizard (or Sorcerer) 4 / Spellsword 5 / Eldritch Knight 9. There are better builds than this one but none easier and with less requeriments. And as Shadow Mage mentioned you should remember that Eldritch Knight is a filler PrC it should never be the backbone of a build. You take Spell Sword or Blade Singer or any other PrC as the backbone of your character and then fill the blanks with Eldritch Knight (As the example above).
mr.unknown 01-03-05, 05:10 AM	i personally like the spellsword for its awesome channeling abilities, even though overall, the eldritch knight will probably end up being more powerful spell casting wise, not to mention that spell channeling is only good for 5/day, & when you start getting the ability to channel 2 spells, it'll run out rather quickly. one good combo i thought of is marshall 1/sor 6/eld. knight 10/spellsword 3: you'll end up with slightly better than average saves (fairly high base will save & higher than average base fort & ref save); slightly better than medium BAB (if i remember correctly, its 16/11/6). the marshall's minor aura will be "determined spellcasting", which applies the char's CHA bonus to rolls for overcoming pesky spell resistance, which is perfect for a sor. since his primary stat would be CHA. not to mention the entire group gets this benefit. decent feats for such a char. would be fighter feats such as power attack, cleave, arcane strike, etc. & metamagic like sculpt spell (complete arcane), fell drain & fell weaken (libris mortis), these feats will allow the char. to shape area spells to a limited extent to avoid hitting allies or self; & more importantly, fell drain & fell weaken will give this fighter with temporary advantages by imposing negative levels & -4 to STR through damage spells before rushing in to engage in melee combat. & if the DM allows, get a few flaws for more feats to add your own flavor. & of course, don't forget practiced spellcaster feat to add more punch to your spells. i think this build will allow for a decent support fighter with 8th LV spells, & the progression for the char. to goes straight into spellsword at epic LVs without worrying about qualification feats. any critiques of this build by the pundits is appreciated.
Stuntman 01-03-05, 09:00 AM	With regard to spellcasting in armour. The EK can still pull ahead of the SS using the Still Spell feat. Even if the EK used Still Spell on every spell, he would still be able to outcast the SS because he has 4 more caster levels. If you use Still Spell on all spells, you would still end up casting spells of one level higher. If you are a spontaneous caster, Still Spell requires a full round action when casting spells. In this case, the SS does have a bit of an advantage here when he can ignore enough ASF. If you use spells without somantic components (and there are enough useful ones), then those spells you can cast without needing Still Spell. I do not agree with the role playing aspects of the EK. That is more up to the skill of the player rather than anything else. Ability wise, I like the Bladesinger and SS more than the EK because the EK doesn't have any cool special abilities. His only ability is just a straight combo of two core, base classes. The BS has the bladesongs, the SS has ignore ASF and Channel.
Faragon 01-03-05, 09:14 AM	One level of runesmith (Races of Stone) makes the Spellsword's biggest advantage (ASF reductions) absolete, because the runesmith has no ASF at all when he uses runes for his spellcasting. At that's at 1st level even.
PaTRiXXX 01-03-05, 09:50 AM	One level of runesmith (Races of Stone) makes the Spellsword's biggest advantage (ASF reductions) absolete, because the runesmith has no ASF at all when he uses runes for his spellcasting. At that's at 1st level even. That's good ONLY in the case you want to be a Dwarf Wizard. Any other people have to take levels in special PrC's that give ASF reductions. With regard to spellcasting in armour. The EK can still pull ahead of the SS using the Still Spell feat. Even if the EK used Still Spell on every spell, he would still be able to outcast the SS because he has 4 more caster levels. If you use Still Spell on all spells, you would still end up casting spells of one level higher. If you are a spontaneous caster, Still Spell requires a full round action when casting spells. In this case, the SS does have a bit of an advantage here when he can ignore enough ASF. If you use spells without somantic components (and there are enough useful ones), then those spells you can cast without needing Still Spell. If you take Still Spell you have max 8th level spells. For example: "Fighter 1 / Wizard (or Sorcerer) 9 / Eldritch Knight 10" with CL 18, BAB 15 (only 3 attacks) and only able to cast 8th level spells in full plate or use 9th level spells and be an archer or ray specialist. Now let's see a standard Balanced Gish bulid "Fighter 1 / Wizard 6 / Spell Sword 3 / Eldritch Knight 10" with CL 17, BAB 17, with better saves, better HP, more feats and casting 9th level spells in FULL PLATE (Twilight Mithral Full Plate 15% ASF). And now a standard Tank Gish bulid "Fighter 2 / Wizard 4 / Spell Sword 5 / Eldritch Knight 9" we have CL 15, BAB 18, better saves, better HP, lots of free feats, casting 8th level spells, channel spell again in Full Plate. Those builds are fairly standard and with almost no requirements. All are very different builds but all are gish. The first one even with a full plate would rather stay out of melee, the last one could almost be your tipical tank. You can't say that one is really better than the other one they have all 3 different roles. You can't compare Spellsword to Eldritch Knight they have both their uses, the first one as a tank Gish and the second one as a filler class or ray specialist. You would probably be better of with both as you can see. PS: About Blade Singer, we all know it's not the best PrC out there, it's only good as a dip to get some of the abilities it gets at lower levels.
Toffstier 01-03-05, 10:13 AM	With the Militia-Feat from 3.5 PG-Faerûn (granting all Martial Weapon Proficiency) you can try Wiz(5)/EK(rest) for a mage only 1 level behind a normal mage spellwise, but with better HD,BAB and different Saves. [edit lil' mistake] Or even better, Warmage(8)/EK(10)/Spellsword(2), with Militia-Feat(PGFaerûn), BattleCaster-Feat(CompleteArcane) and the Heavy Armor Proficiency-Feat (PGCore), BAB of 16/11/6/1, unmod saves at 12/5/12, can cast 3 9th-level spells/day in Full Plate without ASF.
PaTRiXXX 01-03-05, 10:21 AM	With the Militia-Feat from 3.5 PG-Faerûn (granting all Martial Weapon Proficiency) you can try Wiz(5)/EK(rest) for a mage only 1 level behind a normal mage spellwise, but with better HD,BAB and different Saves.. It's FR only and from a specific region, but it's a good choice if you wan't an archer or a ray specialist as I pointed earlier. If you want a wizard, a real wizard, there are better choices than Eldritch Knight that don't lose caster levels. Or even better, Warmage(8)/EK(10)/Fighter(2), with Militia-Feat(PGFaerûn) and BattleCaster-Feat(CompleteArcane), BAB of 16/11/6/1, unmod saves at 12/5/9, can cast 3 9th-level spells/day in Full Plate. Why lose 3 caster levels and use a class that can only use damaging spells when there are lot's of better choices?
Toffstier 01-03-05, 10:38 AM	Now let's see a standard Balanced Gish bulid "Fighter 1 / Wizard 6 / Spell Sword 3 / Eldritch Knight 10" with CL 17, BAB 17, with better saves, better HP, more feats and casting 9th level spells in FULL PLATE (Twilight Mithral Full Plate 15% ASF). This one comes up ahead of my build, but it requires a specific Armor. And with my build, you can use a light shield without ASF as well :) If one has enough feats to also qualify as a Bladesinger(1), you'd effectively only loose one level of arcane spells, due to the EK(1). Hmm got to work this through for my next player character.
PaTRiXXX 01-03-05, 10:49 AM	Just look at the spells available to Warmage and look at those available to wizard and you will understand wich one is better, is not only casting spells in armor.
Toffstier 01-03-05, 11:02 AM	Yes, a lvl 20 half-elf from aglarond in the FR-setting can actually cast warmage spells at clevel 19 in any Fullplate with a light shield, and have 4 attacks per round. LOL. I know the spell selection is crap, but he is in for a lot of damage :) Forget him, though, he's much to specific.
Ander Spectacular 01-03-05, 11:47 AM	I have always liked the combination of barbarian/fighter/warmage/rage mage/spellsword. You can get 10 levels in rage mage and still pick up 4 in spellsword which gets the channeling and some reduced ASF(i think around 25% total). If you are really looking for a mix of fighter/caster, then there are other focuses besides high level spell slots. In the games we play, melee fighter types consistently outdamage(by a lot) casters, and the fighter/caster route can help this out quite a bit. -AS-
red_wizard69 01-03-05, 05:10 PM	yeah, I vote for Eldritch Knight. Personally, I perfer mage far over fighter, so EK is the obvious choice for me. The others are just as good or valid though, depending on what you want to do in a character. As for people saying the ek is no flavour, I disagree. DnD is about creating your own flavour. EK allows a player to do that, I find bladesinger and spellsword already have a certain flavour to them that lessens a players ability to create their own flavour.
PaTRiXXX 01-03-05, 05:24 PM	Well if what I wanted is a mage I would pick Incantatrix or Wild Mage (with Practiced Spellcaster), much better if you ask me for a mage. And having flavour behind a PrC has nothing to do with being able to create your own flavour for it. It seems silly to me that because of the evident lack of abilities and flavour of the Eldritch Knight it would be easier to create a good background for it.
shadow mage 01-03-05, 05:32 PM	Hm, it seems a lot of people are misinterpreting what I meant by lack of flavor. Going back to what I actually said, the eldritch knight is entirely dependent on the player behind it for flavor, whereas the other presented choices already had some amount of built-in flavor. The player has to make the eldritch knight flavorful, it doesn't "come standard" so to speak. While I agree that D&D is about making your own flavor and story and whatnot, the prestige class itself, with its alarmingly simple prerequisites and a skill list that makes little sense, seems to me very geared toward a more mechanical standpoint rather than a flavor-oriented one. If a prestige class like spellsword or dragonslayer or bladesinger were taken FIRST, and mixed levels with that and eldritch knight, that actually makes sense. Eldritch Knight itself though only seems appropriate for the (noncore, mind you) warmage.
Loopy 01-03-05, 05:56 PM	The biggest problem me and many many others have with eldritch knight is that it's only a good prestige class mechanically. There's no flavor whatsoever. Why on earth would an eldritch knight have Sense Motive? That makes no sense, especially considering the classes taken to qualify for it. When other characters are trying to bluff her in combat. If I want an elven-finesse character who like many of his people blend swordplay and magic? Take Weapon Finesse and the Arcane Strike feats. Or do I want that rare arcane-casting-dwarf who refuses to let his martial side fall behind and loves the smithing path? Take a couple more levels in fighter and a couple of levels in expert. Since you have Fighter as you favored class, it's cool to go Fighter 4/Wizard 3/Expert 2/Spellsword 3 or what-have-you. Or maybe I want to focus on a singular weapon and enhance it beyond belief and still grow stronger myself in the areas of casting (well, manifesting in this example) and fighting? You can't do that? I do understand where you're coming from dude, and I respect the point you're making, but I really have to disagree. I would say that the Eldritch Knight is the most flavorful fighter/mage prestige class there has ever been because all of the flavor is in YOUR hands. The day we start letting the r u l e s dictate to us how we play our character's flavor is the day I put down the dice and pick up the cards with the rest of the unwashed masses. You can make your character anything you want. Pick the right feats and the right skills and decide what your "signature" spells are... and most of all role-play. You'll find your character has more flavor than any of the other cookie-cutter Bladesingers or Artificers out there. Edit: AH! It seems as if someone already brought this point up. Sorry.
shadow mage 01-03-05, 06:44 PM	When other characters are trying to bluff her in combat. -cough- And yet Sense Motive still isn't on a Fighter's skill list...sorry, different argument. :P Take Weapon Finesse and the Arcane Strike feats. Take a couple more levels in fighter and a couple of levels in expert. Since you have Fighter as you favored class, it's cool to go Fighter 4/Wizard 3/Expert 2/Spellsword 3 or what-have-you. My points here were for role-play-ability. The bladesinger is styled as the "traditional" fighter-mage among elves. The spellsword example was just one of many, but it seemed like the most appropriate (expert isn't really needed, by the way, as Craft is, thankfull, a universal skill everyone's got). You can't do that? Ever heard of the psychic weapon master? I do understand where you're coming from dude, and I respect the point you're making, but I really have to disagree. I would say that the Eldritch Knight is the most flavorful fighter/mage prestige class there has ever been because all of the flavor is in YOUR hands. The day we start letting the r u l e s dictate to us how we play our character's flavor is the day I put down the dice and pick up the cards with the rest of the unwashed masses. You can make your character anything you want. Pick the right feats and the right skills and decide what your "signature" spells are... and most of all role-play. You'll find your character has more flavor than any of the other cookie-cutter Bladesingers or Artificers out there. That's sort of the point I made though. Every single fighter-mage prestige class has built-in flavor. Something for players to base their characters off of. Not something to follow by the letter and let completely dictate how they play, mind you. My arguments against the eldritch knight having any built-in flavor stem entirely from the fact that it's basically combining two core classes (gestalt anyone? Not of it myself...) but more importantly the PrC has so few decent skills it is very hard to make flavor for it. Considering the lack of coherent history for the class (unlike other fighter-mage prestige classes), all of the flavor MUST come from the player, and this class doesn't offer very much for that to happen.
runestar 01-03-05, 09:50 PM	Wiz5/Eldritch Knight10/Spellsword5 .... Hmm .... I never considered that build. 9th lv spells, ability to ignore ASF, not a bad combination indeed. Oh, and has anyone come up with an epic progression for EK? I was thinking of following the epic wizard progression, with an epic feat every 3rd lv and straight spellcasting progression. Any suggestions?
Addi83 01-04-05, 01:19 AM	When I DM, and when anybody who regularly plays with me DMs, there is no way anyone in the game is going to be allowed more than a single PrC, possibly a little 5 level one on top if they mesh very well and there is good background supporting it, but the automatic answer is no. In theory we might allow it in epic games, but that has yet to happen. There are very few things a person making a character can do that will lose my respect faster than PrC dipping.
PaTRiXXX 01-04-05, 09:08 AM	Addi83 It's your personal style. But taking some levels in Spellsword or BladeSinger to then go Eldritch Knight is NOT what I would call PrC dipping (in the band sense of the word) it's rather trying to make an effective fighter-mage.
Fedifensor 01-04-05, 11:03 AM	I'd say the best build would be Eldritch Knight, with one level of Spellsword for the ASF reduction (enough to wear a mithral chain shirt without penalties). In D&D, caster level is god, and you don't want to sacrifice any more than you have to. Even with the availability of Practiced Spellcaster, there's no substitute for high-level spell slots.
shadow mage 01-04-05, 05:57 PM	I'd say the best build would be Eldritch Knight, with one level of Spellsword for the ASF reduction (enough to wear a mithral chain shirt without penalties). In D&D, caster level is god, and you don't want to sacrifice any more than you have to. Even with the availability of Practiced Spellcaster, there's no substitute for high-level spell slots. You haven't seen any of the anti-caster/manifester builds on the Character Optimization boards have you... :smirk:
Fedifensor 01-05-05, 12:23 AM	You haven't seen any of the anti-caster/manifester builds on the Character Optimization boards have you... :smirk: No, I haven't. I don't really think they're relevant, though. If you're talking about characters built to negate a PC fighter/mage's casting ability, then I'm not worried, because I don't expect DM's to throw them at me frequently. And any build can be countered by a DM who has it in for you. If you're talking about building a PC to fight casters and manifesters...well, I fight a lot more mundane foes than casters. I'd rather have a general-purpose build than a specialized one any day of the week. And, even if I'm up against something that has a high SR or otherwise resistant to magic, I can just take the Arcane Strike feat to dish out a good bit of extra damage using those spell slots. Feel free to link to one of those threads if I'm not addressing the same thing you are.