Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JurioMaphys 07-31-07, 07:03 PM	Hello everyone, I have been playing D&D for about 6 years now. Mostly as casters, seeing as they are easily the most powerful. Sometimes as a rogue type. Recently, one of our members made a comment about me never playing a straight melee. So I have decided for our new campaign to play a straight melee. Most everyone else will be swapping roles. (Ie Playing casters and rogues). I want to play a melee WITHOUT any magic, except for weapons and armor. So forsaker is out, plus I think it is 3.0. Unsure at the moment though. I have a 20 level limit and we are rolling for stats. So here is the things I would appreciate some help with. Note: We are using 3.5 and certain 3.0 things pending the DM approval. 1. What class(es) should I play? (Remember no magic, and if there is magic it will be removed as an ability.) 2. It needs to be a strong build, I would like to smash through monsters as quickly or nearly as fast as the rest of the party. 3. This is not a must, but mostly all my past characters used medium to no armor. I would prefer (and the DM would also) having Full Plate on for this character. 4. This character needs to be extremely powerful in a toe-to-toe melee fight. 5. I heard a rumor that one of the other members in the party plans to kill everyone else. So this needs to be effective against a magic/rogue combo. 6. The character must be a normal race nothing more than +2 LA. (So the multi arm combo is out.) Thank you for any help you give. If any more information is needed I will edit this post instead of creating another. :D
Magius_Rerecros 07-31-07, 07:28 PM	Straight melee, eh? Well, if you have access to Tome of Battle, I'd say go with either a Warblade, Swordsage, or Crusader. My personal favorite is a Warblade. I don't usually deal with rogue-types, so I can't help all too much on making him effective against that, but if you need something to help fight against magic-users, then pick up the Occult Slayer PrC (Complete Warrior). With this, pretty much any race would work, as far as I can tell. The rest of how you build him (feats, maneuvers, stances, etc) depends on what kind of melee you're looking at. Like if you want a two-weapon fighter, then maneuver-wise you'll probably want to focus on the Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind disciplines. And then you could always be a Thri-Kreen (Expanded Psionics Handbook, +2 LA) for two extra arms and pick up the Multiweapon fighting feats instead of the two-weapon fighting feats. Or if you're looking at more of a one-hit fighter, then you'll probably want to focus on Iron Heart and Stone Dragon disciplines, and pick up feats like Power Attack. There's really quite a variety of options for a straight-melee person (more then people think), and before you ask for help like this, you should put in some thought as to what kind of melee-fighter you want to be (one-hit, two/multi weapon fighter, grappler, etc). Hope that helps.
JurioMaphys 07-31-07, 08:22 PM	Thanks for the reply, indeed it is helpful. I was leaning towards Tome of Battle classes currently. Also, I was thinking of two sword or two hander. Now to get my hands on the Complete Warrior book.
Magius_Rerecros 07-31-07, 08:43 PM	If you're going to do multiple weapons, I'd say go with a Thri-Kreen who's either a Swordsage or Warblade going with the Tiger Claw & Diamond Mind disciplines, then taking the multiweapon fighting feats, and Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (Complete Adventurer). If possible, check with your DM to see if you can modify Dual Strike and Oversized Two Weapon Fighting to go with the multiweapon fighting feat tree instead of just the two-weapon fighting feat tree. You also might want to pick up Monkey Grip (Complete Warrior). Then you could use a Large Battleaxe in your main hand (2d6, x3 crit multiplier) and, say, three longswords in your off hands. Or two longswords and another medium battleaxe in your off hands. You get the idea. Or, if you have at least one more feat availible, pick up Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) so that you can wield one large bastard sword (2d8 19-20/x2) in your main hand and 3 medium bastard swords (1d10 19-20/x2) in your off hands. If the feat modification doesn't go over so well, you could always still go with a Thri-Kreen Warblade (or Swordsage) following the same maneuver/stance progression, and then dual wield Greatswords (Using monkey grip to make one of them large, of course) :P
LoneFlame 07-31-07, 09:24 PM	I've got a build for a front-line melee Sorcerer, but spell-slinging is out, so... Book of Nine Swords/Tome of Battle is definitely your best bet for melee awesomeness. However, since it's got a lot of mystical abilities(some of which are supernatural), it might be out of the question. If that's the case, I'd say a Barbarian(Players Handbook)/Berserk(Deities & Demigods)/Frenzied Berserker(Complete Warrior) armed with an Adamantine(Dungeon Master's Guide) Fullblade(Arms & Equipment Guide), a Cold Iron(DMG) spiked guantlet(PHB), & a Silver(DMG) spiked gauntlet(PHB) while wearing a Mithril(DMG) Breastplate(PHB) or Fullplate(PHB) will bring on some hurt. Add in the Righteous Wrath(Book of Exalted Deeds) feat to protect your allies. Then, break out Power Attack(PHB), Cleave(PHB), Great Cleave(PHB), & Improved Sunder(PHB) to complete the mix. Good luck and have fun killing everything that messes with you(especially when you get Supreme Cleave from Frenzied Berserker).
nonsi 08-01-07, 05:54 AM	Here's how you do it !!! Focus your attention at DEX & INT Take Human or any race that favors the Fighter and progress as follows: 1. Scout - Trapfinding + Skirmish 1d6 + Uncanny Dodge + SkPts bonanza ; General Feat 2. Barbarian - Fast Movement + Rage 3. Ranger - Favored enemy (whatever) + Track + Whild Empaty ; General Feat 4. Monk - FoB, Unarmed Strike ; Bonus Monk Feat (Rage ability is lost) 5. Monk - Evasion ; Bonus Monk Feat 6. Swashbuckler - Weapon Finesse ; General Feat (Rage can be regained) 7. Fighter - Bonus Fighter Feat 8. Fighter - Bonus Fighter Feat 9. Fighter - General Feat 10. Fighter - Bonus Fighter Feat 11. Fighter 12. Fighter - General Feat ; Bonus Fighter feat 13. Fighter 14. Fighter - Bonus Fighter Feat 15. Fighter - General Feat 16. Fighter - Bonus Fighter Feat 17. Fighter 18. Fighter - Bonus Fighter Feat ; General Feat 19. Fighter 20. Fighter - Bonus Fighter Feat Take the Sapara (exotic light blade - slashing and can trip) for minimum encumbrance, slashing damage and tripping. If you focus your efforts on the Spring Attack and TWF trees - combined with tripping it could make an impressive battlefield control. Select your feats as follows... - Combat Expertise (to compensate defensively and as prereq.) - Improved Trip (obvious) - Combat Reflex for the extra threat - Improved Grapple for dealing with spellcasters (Improved Unarmed Strike comes for free from the Monk) - Spring Attack tree for the extra mobility (capped right at level 20 with Rappid Blitz) - TWF and TWD tree for more attacks and even more defense (when not tripping, use a Kama in your primary hand for the extra attack from Flurry) - Weapon Focus (+Improved) for the hit rolls. You'll lose: - 10 HP overall - -2 BAB (-1 if fractional BAB is used) - suboptimal build before level 6 (because of the Monk's narrow selection and waiting to get the Weapon Finesse from the Swashbuckler) - but maybe you can play around with the selection order (Scout (always 1st); Swash; Monk; Monk; Barb; Ranger) to minimize the discomfort. You'll gain: ............... (just go back and re-read)
The_Shaman 08-01-07, 06:55 AM	Book of Nine Swords/Tome of Battle is definitely your best bet for melee awesomeness. However, since it's got a lot of mystical abilities(some of which are supernatural), it might be out of the question. Me, I'm still rooting for a Thri-Kreen warblade with TWF goodness (perhaps double weapons so they can use two-handed PA when they need to), but to each their own. If that's the case, I'd say a Barbarian(Players Handbook)/Berserk(Deities & Demigods)/Frenzied Berserker(Complete Warrior) armed with an Adamantine(Dungeon Master's Guide) Fullblade(Arms & Equipment Guide), a Cold Iron(DMG) spiked guantlet(PHB), & a Silver(DMG) spiked gauntlet(PHB) while wearing a Mithril(DMG) Breastplate(PHB) or Fullplate(PHB) will bring on some hurt. Add in the Righteous Wrath(Book of Exalted Deeds) feat to protect your allies. Then, break out Power Attack(PHB), Cleave(PHB), Great Cleave(PHB), & Improved Sunder(PHB) to complete the mix. Good luck and have fun killing everything that messes with you(especially when you get Supreme Cleave from Frenzied Berserker). Sounds fun... Although I dare say that if Favored power attack from CW stacks with the FB Power attack bonuses, a level of ranger in there can't hurt either. Nonsi, I suppose your build can be fun, but just how effective will the character be, when it's all said and done? I honestly don't see it doing a lot of damage, especially against DR enemies. Please elaborate on the below: - Improved trip requires good strength, which you do not list as a priority for your character. +4 from rage can help, but a heavy tank character who has pumped strength instead of dexterity will probably have an edge anyway. - Grapple is keyed off BAB, which you have taken a hit to, and your strength modifier (again) A heavy fighter, barbarian, warblade or crusader with the ToB Superior Unarmed Strike, or with a few levels in Shou Disciple/Fist of the forest, will win a grapple with your character more often than not. Plus, even if you catch a spellcaster, remember that dimension door does not require somatic component, and many wizards (your main targets) might have it stilled if they are feeling paranoid. - The flurry (-2) only works if the character is unarmored. While it is possible to get decent AC without armor, it will be hard and goes against what the OP requested. - spring attack - rapid blitz is okay, but your character's movement speed is not high enough to be able to go beyond the movement range of most opponents (who can charge and smack for quite a bit, or just move and attack). Even with 3 attacks, you are making them with a light weapon. - weapon focus... meh. Melee weapon mastery, I guess, is worth it, but don't get carried away :) - your character's AC... Frankly, it would probably be quite low. Even with carmendine monk/Kung-fu Genius, you might have to work on it a little. MAD hits that build quite hard already. It seems that you want it to be core only. Still, how would you compare that build to a barbarian 20? JuryoMarphys, how do you feel about Incarnum? Soulborn get decent BAB and some okay abilities, and with a feat or two can become quite decent. I liked the quote in the MoI book - they are strong, Incarnum just makes them stronger.
The_sleeper1 08-01-07, 07:26 AM	If your going warblade you should try to stay from true full plate because they have some abilitys that can only be used in med or lighter armor. Though you could get a sute of mithral full plate I tend to go for med or light armor and have a higher dex so your touch ac is higher versus ranged touch attacks. Also I would sudgest a spiked chain, I have been desinging a WB with extended reach (lords of madness) and an enlarge item, it makes him threaten out to 30 feet. As well I believe that WB are never deprived of there dex at latter levels so no sneak attack.
Lord_Zeb 08-01-07, 08:27 AM	So... Defence against rogues, magicians, damagedealing, warrior without magic...in full plate. If you want to defend against Sneak attacks, Improved Uncanny Dodge is the thing to get. If you want to deal damage in combat, 2-hander+Power attack and full BAB build is good. Cleave and Spiked Chain (Exotic 2-hander, adaptive Reach, Tripper, disarm bonus, finessable) are nice addons there too. And Combat Reflexes if you got some Dex. Defence against Magician? Getting in close to clobber them fast. ;) Throwing weapons may help... Possibly some "defence feats" to boost your Saves... Magical items can defend a bit as well. But these are not class issues. Core class recommendation: Barbarian. (Improved basic damage-dealing & Improved Uncanny Dodge) Extended class recommendation: Crusader. (Good damage resistance, Will save CHA bonus, healing ability) And you know what? They multiclass nicely. ;) Get Barbarian 5th for Improved Uncanny Dodge and 2 Rages/day (and +10 Movement when you are in Medium or lighter armor), and then go to Crusader. You will start with access to 2nd level techniques then, so your Crusader progression will not be gimped as a Full Caster's would be. With Crusader you will gain a fun randomized Maneuver system, access to holy(/unholy?) energy and healing, ability to withstand heavy damage and Charisma Will save bonus. And the heavy armor you wanted. There are some Attack of Opportunity manuevyer/stances there as well, so Combat Reflexes may be a good feat to have here. And, if you do an (half-)elf Barb/Crusader, Eternal Blade will be a very good PrC for you. You could possibly go Warblade instead of this though: With Warblade you will gain control and access to better martial techniques (Iron Heart got some good ones to resist magic users: Iron Heart Surge (3rd) and Iron Heart Focus (5th)), and Weapon Specialization access at higher levels. But, you do not gain Heavy Armor proficiency. (You can still use Mithral Full Plate though.) You do gain Improved Uncanny Dodge here, and d12 hp, so if you do not want a minor Rage ability this can be as good if you want a "pure" class. You can also PrC as Bloodstorm Blade then for some good ranged damage through thrown weapons. So, what do you want to be? A skilled Warblade, or a raging Barbarian Crusader? Or, maybe you would want to Multiclass Crusader and Warblade instead (easy as Human/Half-elf), and go for Master of Nine PrC? (Remember focusing on Warblade then for the Improved Uncanny Dodge...)
Karzach 08-01-07, 11:05 AM	You could always put in for the UberCharger framework. Barbarian/Fighter Multiclass, then PrC into Frenzied berserker. Feats you need: Power Attack Cleave Intimidating Rage (Complete Warrior) Destructive Rage (Complete Warrior) Improved Sunder Improved Bullrush Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior) Combat Brute (Complete Warrior) Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer) With all of those feats + class features packed in you get: 6 to 1 returns on power attack when character charges with a 2-handed weapon(and makes at least 10 foot jump check as part of that charge). Your attack penalty to fuel power attack goes into your AC instead. Now, take the pounce variant from Complete Champion, and you can be one heck of a line breaker there. You ARE a bit of a one-trick pony, though, but still formidable in melee. For the person who posted the monk/barbarian multiclass: Uhh...aren't there some alignment restrictions in there? Monk is any lawful, barbarian is any non-lawful? You lose rage to gain the alignment to take monk levels.
Vestrial 08-01-07, 12:14 PM	Yeah, for your stated goals, Id have to go with karzach. Barb/war/fb is going to tear things up way faster than anything out of tob. The rest of your party wont be able to keep up with you for quite some time. But, like he said, it's a bit of a one-trick pony. I would personally go with the spiked chain tripper for battlefield control. After playing mages so long you will probably get bored quick playing an ubercharger type. (I know I do) Also, if there is an evil pc in the party who wants to kill the other pcs, finding out who it is before he strikes is the only thing that save them. If a mage or rogue wants you dead and your character doesnt know it, he's as good as dead. ;) (Unless said player is a moron)
LoneFlame 08-01-07, 01:32 PM	Oh yeah, don't forget to get the Heavy Fortification(DMG) enchantment for your armor. Completely makes Sneak Attack ineffective and protects from Crits.
Lord_Zeb 08-01-07, 01:39 PM	Well, a Warblade with the right maneuvers may get: Immunity to Sneak Attacks (granted by Improved Uncanny Dodge...unless he is helpless, but then he is dead regardless), Reroll on 1 Save (until maneuvers readied again), Concentration skill check used for Save (once, until readied again), and if affected by effect (such as Hold person) he can shake one such effect 1 effect/time maneuver readied. That would give him a fair shot at surviving such attempts. On the other hand... even a level 1 Commoner could kill you in your sleep with a Coup de grace regardless of which class you take. ;)
LoneFlame 08-01-07, 02:26 PM	Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge don't grant immunity to Sneak Attack, just protects from it. Improved Uncanny Dodge grants some protection from the Flanking aspect of Sneak Attack. Uncanny Dodge, on the other hand, only lets you keep your Dex if you're caught flat-footed, which only lets you have a slightly better AC to avoid the Sneak Attack with. After all, even though you still have your Dex to AC, you are still technically Flat-Footed.
Vestrial 08-01-07, 03:24 PM	The rogue/wiz that he is concerned about is in his party. Heavy fortification, uncany dodge, stances, all are useless unless the assassin is a complete moron, in which case he wont need all that protection anyway... ;)
Karzach 08-01-07, 09:01 PM	Frenzied Berserker also has one, oddball side benefit. There's a chance you'll accidentally kill that wiz/rog on a frenzy (not good odds, mind you, but possible). Now, this guy will probably be smart about it, but its still something to consider. Unfortunately, its also equally likely you'll kill some other member of your party, so becareful.
Jaxgaret 08-01-07, 09:27 PM	The FB ubercharger is a good build. So is going Barb/Crusader, as well as some of the other suggestions found above. I'm going to take a different tack here, and suggest an alternate route: Wildshape variant Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) with a spell-less substitution (from CWar or another source) going into MoMF/Warshaper. It isn't the best melee build there is but it is nice and versatile, and still quite powerful.
Lord_Zeb 08-02-07, 12:59 AM	Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge don't grant immunity to Sneak Attack, just protects from it. Improved Uncanny Dodge grants some protection from the Flanking aspect of Sneak Attack. Uncanny Dodge, on the other hand, only lets you keep your Dex if you're caught flat-footed, which only lets you have a slightly better AC to avoid the Sneak Attack with. After all, even though you still have your Dex to AC, you are still technically Flat-Footed. Immunity or Protection? Same difference, when the protection is in effect, as it is not the Flat-footedness that enables a Sneak attack, but the lack of Dexterity bonus. Hence Improved Uncanny Dodge ability + Blind-Fighting feat (against invisibles/hiders) protects against all Sneak Attacks as long as you can move. (There is also a Diamond Mind stance that can detect all Invisibles, that can be interesting.) At least as long as the Improved Uncanny Feat granting levels are not more than 3 less than a Rogue trying to flank him. And Wildshape Ranger? Weren't you going to stay away from magic?;)
Karzach 08-02-07, 02:26 AM	You might want to consider playing a Warforged. It's an LA 0 race, available out of the Eberron Campaign setting book or Monster Manual 3. Interesting benefits: automatic light fortification, immunity to a number of fortitude save abilities (such as diseases and poisons), and no need to sleep, eat, or breathe.
RLRapp 08-02-07, 03:52 AM	Try a Dwarven Knight (PHB2), multiclassing into Dwarven Defender. Very tough (High AC, D12 HD in both classes).
Jaxgaret 08-02-07, 10:21 AM	Wildshape variant Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) with a spell-less substitution (from CWar or another source) going into MoMF/Warshaper. And Wildshape Ranger? Weren't you going to stay away from magic?;) Lord_Zeb, please read the now-bolded section from my original post.