Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Koga:The ninja trick 08-08-04, 04:45 AM	The Koga is going to be in a new game soon and wants to be a spellcaster of some kind (Psionics allowed.) that nukes stuff, and well. What would be the best class for the job? Any sourcebook is allowed. However The Koga's knowledge of these sources is vastly limited, so unless an evocation wizard or player's handbook sorcerer is the best nuker, could you link me to a system referance document of the job class? :P
Thermanshs 08-08-04, 05:39 AM	Koga...the arcane spell list (wizard/sorcerer) is the best for the job you're looking...if someone may not agree on my point he may take a look on my analysis HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=280309&perpage=30&pagenumber=4) Then on I have some really nasty tricks for your new artillery platform in my thread HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=185835) All tricks mentioned by me in there are CORE ONLY.That means all you need is a PH or the 3,5 System Reference Document (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/SRD.zip)
MesaCraft 08-08-04, 08:02 AM	WARMAGE...it is a Core Class from the Mini HB. It is a watered down Wizard that basically gets all the NUKE spells from his list and not much else. He can wear some armor, and gets SUDDEN Metamagic Feats as a bonus. If you are looking to simply blow stuff up, this guy is the way to go.
Steelgryphon 08-08-04, 08:12 AM	a Psion Kenitiscist (if your usuing 3.5) or just an Evoker from UA
Lina_Inverse 08-08-04, 02:28 PM	Druid,is ok with flamestrike Kinetic psion is exellent with +1 damege/lvl and fortitude hits. Wizard evokers are worthless,too little damege for the effort(why not just use save or dies?)
Aluroon 08-08-04, 05:09 PM	Well, sorcerer and warmage jump right out at me... Aluroon
mercurywyrm 08-09-04, 02:42 AM	Psion (Kineticist) or Warmage are the ways to go. The advantage of Warmage is he doesn't tire out as fast but watch out because he can't damage as many different types of foes as easily as the kineticist. Warmage adds INT to spell damage, and that ends up applying to EACH magic missile in a magic missile spell, so your damage can be pretty high. Kinetisist can learn rather powerfull, no save, no SR/PR damaging powers like Crystal Shard, as well as the psionic energy powers allowing you to choose element upon manifestation rather than being set and each element has it's own benifits. Plus, by spending a feat, the kinetisit can learn another psionic power not on it's own list such as fly. I highly reccomend a party bard because that is pretty much the most effective way to increse spell damage, having the bard sing.
Sisyfos 08-09-04, 05:50 AM	Blah. Spontaneous summoner (druid, or dweomerkeeper + UA summonermage variant + initiate of mystra, or just an UA summoner variant [of these first and second options are the best) with rashemen elemental summoning (UE). Summon elementals who can all cast cone of cold 3xday. d4+1 such elementals casting at most 5 cones/round for 3 rounds, plus your own spells is just about as powerful as it can get. Oh.. of course you can summon more than one wave of those critters.
kaor 08-09-04, 06:37 AM	Take a look at the artificer class from Eberron. There was a thread in the Character Optimization board about it. A very effective nuker. Fun to try something new as well. If you are playing Realms, nothing is as powerful as a dweomerkeeper of Mystra though.
PaTRiXXX 08-09-04, 10:58 AM	If you want to blast everything in your line of sight just 4 words: Wilder with expanded knoledge. Better BAB, hit dice, armor proficiencies and damage than any other wizards, sorcerer, psion. The problem is the lack of flexibility, but you asked for a blaster, not for an utility mage.
Krelios 08-09-04, 11:21 AM	A Psion Kineticist will out nuke any wilder or wizard any day, and beats the sorcerer for adaptable energy types.
Daoud 08-11-04, 08:55 AM	"Warmage adds INT to spell damage, and that ends up applying to EACH magic missile in a magic missile spell, so your damage can be pretty high" Warmage edge will only apply to one magic missle. It says so specifically in the description. That said Warmage is still the ultimate nuker. (But then I don't do Psionics).
The_Ditto 08-11-04, 10:09 AM	Originally posted by Krelios A Psion Kineticist will out nuke any wilder or wizard any day, and beats the sorcerer for adaptable energy types. I'm not sure I believe this: Sure, Psion Kineticist has more options .. there's no denying that ... but the Wilder .. for sheer raw power, is going to outperform any psion .. any day ... I will readily admit, however, the 2 major weaknesses of the Wilder - which I find tends to scare people off: 1) High level Wilder's do not perform as well as low/mid level Wilders 2) Low power selection and feat selection means they are very hard to build properly ... .. but just because they are difficult to build, doesn't make them any worse ... I wouldn't suggest a Wilder for a first time Psionics player ... if you've never played psionics, take the Psion .... any flavour of them ... The Wilder takes a little practice to get used to, understand it's capabilities, strengths and weaknesses. It's also best used to get into a PrC after level 7 or 11 ... (maybe 15 ...) ------------------------ Want proof? easy ... Typically Psion builds I've seen, try to make Psions work like Wilders ... they choose: 1: OverPower 3: Talented 5: Psionic Meditation That only leaves them with another 1st level feat pick, and the next one at 6th ... Wilder's are pretty open ended for feat picks at level 1 and 3 ... take what you want, I've seen all flavours ... but for the psion ... you're pretty much stuck to those 3 feats, and no other options to higher levels. (especially if you want to compare with the Wilder - without Overpower, you just aren't going to compare .. it's that simple ..) At level 6, Expanded Knowledge is very common for Wilders ... in my personaly opinion, it's really the only feat they need .. they have everything else they need. I use those first 2 feats (level 1 and 3) to provide any amount of customization for the wilder .. (ie Speed of Thought, Craft Cognizant Crystal, Empower Power, Extend Power are all very common picks for myself ...) In any case, PP are the same between the 2 classes, and I'll not argue that Psions have a versatility of powers / feats ... so the only real issue is their usage of those pp and who "nukes better" .. so I'm going to concentrate on that .. we'll assume all stats are same as appropriate (ie Psion Int = 18, therefore Wilder Cha = 18 .. etc.) At 5th level (which is in favour of psion for comparison, 7th level is in favour of wilder ...), the psion, (with Overpower, Talented and Psionic Meditation), can duplicate the Wilder's abilities somewhat .. but they are very inefficient at it .. Let's look at an example: Level 5 Psion 5pp + 1pp (overpower) = 6pp for 6d6 dmg. This also costs the psion a Move Equivilent action to refocus. At this level, it's unlikely he can auto-succeed on this DC 20 check .. 8(ranks) + 4(ability) + 4(misc) = 16 ... and that's being generous ... he's going to fail about 1/4 of the time .. so 1/4 of the time, he "loses" move equivilent action, the rest of the time he "spends" a move equivilent action. So the Psion takes a 5' adj, SA (power), MEA (refocus) ... a little more than 75% of the time. He: 5' adj, MEA (refocus), MEA (refocus) ... a little less than 25% of the time .. A 5th lvl Wilder, on the other hand, needs no special feats to do this ... and does: 5pp + 2pp(surge) = 5pp for 7d6 dmg Wilder will "enervate" only 10% of the time ... he could choose to only do 6d6 dmg, for a 5% chance .. still only costs him 5pp + the average cost to enervate, which is: 10% * 5(lvl) = .5 .. (or .25 for a +1 surge).. So ... it costs him 5.5pp for a 7d6 blast, or 5.25pp for 6d6 ... So the wilder takes a 5' adj, MEA (move 30', or 40' w/ speed of thought), SA (power) 90-95% of the time. he: 5' adj, MEA (move 30'/40'), SA (power) 5-10% of the time .. then loses his next action Psion: 6pp = 6d6 ... 5' adj only wilder: 5.5pp = 7d6 ... 1 in 10 (maybe once per combat - most combats last well under 10 rounds) loses 1 round .. (ie SA + MEA ... as opposed to Psion "losing" MEA every round ...) After 10 rounds, when the Wilder loses 1 SA and 1 MEA, the psion has "lost" 10 MEA ... :uh-huh: Yeah, so the Psion gives up 11 MEA to spend 66pp for 66d6 of dmg. The Wilder gives up 1 SA + 1 MEA to spend 55pp for 70d6 of dmg. (The wilder enervates on round 10 - and the psion acts on round 11 while the wilder is dazed ...) Ok, let's go higher level ... since most people praising the psions always compare a level 20 psion to a level 20 wilder .. (which is kinda silly if you ask me .. but we'll get there .. no worries) Level 10 psion: spend 12pp and MEA for 12d6 dmg. (note .. at this point, the psion should be making every refocus check ... so he just has to spend the MEA once to refocus ... no more worries about trying to refocus after a failed attempt) Level 10 wilder: spend 11.5 pp for 13d6 ... lose 1 round after 7 rounds (about .. 6.67 for those picky about accuracy). or spend 11 pp for 12d6 ... lose 1 round after 10 rounds or spend 10.5 pp for 11d6 ... lose 1 round after 20 rounds 7 so the psion spends 96pp for 96d6 the wilder spends 80.5pp for 91d6 Personally .. I still think this is no contest for the wilder, 5d6 at level 10 is peanuts, but those 16pp is another full 13d6+ after the psion runs dry... and level 10 favours the psion big time here ... the wilder gains his next surge at level 11 .. but we'll got up to lvl 15 anyway .. they both gain at that level .. Level 15 psion: spend 18pp for 18d6 and MEA. Level 15 wilder: spend 18.75pp for 20d6 .. lose 1 round after 4 rounds or spend 18pp for 19d6 ... lose 1 round after 5 rounds or spend 17.25pp for 18d6 .. lose 1 round after 7 rounds ... etc. Again .. the Wilder is still paying less than the Psion ... and in addition, has the option to go higher ... so the Psion spends 90pp for 90d6 the wilder spends 75pp for 80d6 Psion is starting to catch up, but that 15pp gap is still going to provide a 15d6 blast - at least ... given 1 more round .. again, the Wilder's got endurance, and is throwing out bigger blasts (think Energy Resistance ... Wilder's going to get more through ..) It's only level 16-20 where the psion finally catches up and bypasses the Wilder .. which is why you want to get out into a PrC before then .. a failing of the Wilder class?? Yeah, probably ... it does seem "odd" that things become "less efficient" as the wilder becomes more experienced .. :confused: .. but, compared to a psion .. toe-to-toe ... the Wilder will typically hit harder, and last longer (ie cheaper costs) . than the psion ... What the psion provides - hands down - is versatility and MANY more powers to choose from .. which could very easily screw the wilder over if they aren't careful of their build .. Psions are easy to build .. Wilders are much more difficult to build well .... An average psion build will out-perform an average wilder build a poor psion build will out-perform an average wilder build. a good wilder build, however, will always outperform a psion build .. always remember, with the Wilder, that you really only need to pick 1 maybe 2 different offensive powers ... those Energy powers are really nice for that .. so while the Psion is grabbing up all types of strange powers with no rhyme or reason, the wilder needs to specialize a lot more .. (and yes - this can restrict options or screw him in a fight .. but again .. thanks to augmentation and those energy powers, I really don't find this a major issue) ... I'm sure people will take issue to this "defense" of the Wilder .. but I've yet to seea core psion of level <=15 "clearly outshine" a wilder ... it's only when the wilder starts to suffer from his poor write-up for levels up to 20 that it seems bad ... don't compare just level 20 .. compare all the levels ...
GRAOUH !!! 09-09-04, 08:12 AM	The wilder is nice if you play alone, that's sure. But I think that "outshining" other players is not a good goal. Wilder are good at nuking and augment powers with their wild surges, but the chance of Enervation increases with each manifester level you add, and when it occurs, you do nothing for your team. Psions can (and will) choose utility powers tied to their speciality. We are talking about kineticist : control air at second power level is a must have power. If you choose wilder and expanded knowledge, you gain the nukes one power level later. One thing important with nukes : area of effect. Il will be hard with a wilder to have all types of areas. A kineticist can have all type of areas of effect at 7th level. I don't know the Warmage, so for me Sorcerers and Kineticists are the best nukers. • Sorcerers have damage caps on their spells, they can't spontaneously quicken their spells, they can have problem when the situation need a particular energy type and they have to heighten their spells to have a correct save DC. But they are more efficients than Kineticist on the long run, even facing the fifth battle of the day, they still have spell slots to use. • Kineticist's nukes have their DC increasing with additionnals dice of damage. Usually it's +1 every 2 levels, like the same level spells, but two of them Missile Energy and Energy Stun have their DCs augmented by one each level after the third (Missile energy is a targeted nuke and Energy Stun is a small area stun+damage) so these two nukes remain very efficients even at high level. Energy powers give the choice between four elements (fire, Cold, electricity and Sonic). Fire or Cold have +1 on their d6 damage, and Cold is opposed with fortitude save. Electricity give +2 on save DC and against magic/power resistance, and sonic have -1 on dice but ignore hardness of objects. Psion can use only one metapsionic on a power until epic levels, but with the Psionic Meditation feat at 5th level, It's possible to add one metamagic every round, even quicken is possible. The problem is that this nukes can burn their PPs very fast, so you can't play them like a sorcerer, you must be very careful about your targets, powers used and how many PPs the situation deserves. So your choice will be based on what type of nuker you want. Crazy nukers are sorcerers, Kineticist are more like snipers, lol. In each case, you will need some save or die thing at high level. Even with its very high DC, an Energy Missile won't instant kill most things of equivalent level.
The_Ditto 09-09-04, 10:21 AM	The wilder is nice if you play alone, that's sure. But I think that "outshining" other players is not a good goal. it never is ... but the question of the thread was ... :smirk: Wilder are good at nuking and augment powers with their wild surges, but the chance of Enervation increases with each manifester level you add, No it doesn't .. the cost of enervation increases with each manifester level .. the chance of enervation remains the same: 5% per +1 surge ... and when it occurs, you do nothing for your team. Agreed .. but it happens so rarely, (yes I talk from experience ... I'm playing Wilders and I'm not finding they enervate that often ... maybe maybe once per playing session ... that's not a big deal considering they throw out a significantly larger wad of damage/effect ..) If you choose wilder and expanded knowledge, you gain the nukes one power level later. Agreed ... actually, more like 2 or more ... with Expanded Knowledge .. that's what makes the Wilders hard to build ... The plus side is they use those powers much more effectively than any other character .. ;) One thing important with nukes : area of effect. Il will be hard with a wilder to have all types of areas. A kineticist can have all type of areas of effect at 7th level. Point ... ;) However, with the proper selections, you'll only need 2 or maybe 3 different attack powers ... it's nice to have all the area shapes .. but it's not necessary .. :tiphat:
TheMightyMcClaw 09-09-04, 12:07 PM	At high levels, the Cleric. Not only do you have big weapons and armor, you also have spells like Flame Strike (15D6 damage cap) Blade Barrier (it's a like a fireball, but bigger and dealing damage every round until they clear out), and Fire Storm (The mother of all Nuke spells: at level 20, it's 20D6 damage to forty targets, minimally.)
MaverickWolf 09-09-04, 12:46 PM	Kineticist psion, without a doubt. And throw in energy retort for those anything pains who are actually surviving long enough to hit you....So much fun....