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| hughman04-21-06, 03:56 PM | OK, I have a big issue with both the Wizard and the Sorcerer as written, and thought I would take a stab at dealing with it rather than compaining about them. The way I see it, Wizards have strategic flexibility, they can adapt to changing times, class needs, adventurers etc by means of new spells in their spell book. For that flexibility they loose tactical flexifility, however. Once their spells are set (baring use of some of the other spells to alter their spell set) they can't change untill tomorrow. "Sorry, I can't help you finish off those 5 mobs, cause I had to have Knock loaded, just in case we found a locked door!" On the other hand the Sorcerer has great tactical flexibility, burning fireballs in the battle all day long or switching to Dimension Door when needing to get out of trouble, but they are locked into basically the same spell set for life, i.e. no strategic flexibility. "Sorry, can't cast water breathing on you so you can go loot the dragon's lair, but I can Nuke the water 3 more times with Fireballs maybe that will lower the water enough to get you to the treasure!" What I have been looking and hoping for is a class with both tactical flexibility and strategic flexibility. Unfortunately, I haven't found it. So I had to make it! Much of the concept for this is very similar to the Spirit Shaman in CD and may habe been my (unconscious) inspiration for the mechanic I used. But it felt like my owh thought, so take it as you will. Portions of this have been copied from the SRD so I suppose I should give credit in here some where, and now I have. I present the Magus Adept Alignment: Any. Hit Die: d4. Class Skills The Magus Adepts class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) x4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier. Lvl BAB Fo Re Wi Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Summon familiar, Scribe Scroll 3 1 2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 4 2 3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 4 2 1 4th +2 +1 +1 +4 4 3 2 5th +2 +1 +1 +4 4 3 2 1 6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Bonus feat 4 3 3 2 7th +3 +2 +2 +5 4 4 3 2 1 8th +4 +2 +2 +6 4 4 3 3 2 9th +4 +3 +3 +6 4 4 4 3 2 1 10th +5 +3 +3 +7 4 4 4 3 3 2 11th +5 +3 +3 +7 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 12th +6 +4 +4 +8 Bonus feat 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 13th +6 +4 +4 +8 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 14th +7 +4 +4 +9 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 15th +7 +5 +5 +9 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 16th +8 +5 +5 +10 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 17th +8 +5 +5 +10 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 18th +9 +6 +6 +11 Bonus feat 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 19th +9 +6 +6 +11 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 20th +10+6 +6 +12 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 (Thank you Aniona_Amakiir for the table... ) Class Features All of the following are class features of the Magus Adept. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Magus Adept are proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff, but not with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a Magus Adepts gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail. Spells: A Magus Adept casts arcane spells, which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. The primary attributes for spell casting for a Magus Adept are Charisma and Intelligence. To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the Magus Adept must have an Intelligence or Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Magus Adepts spell is 10 + the spell level + the Magus Adepts Intelligence or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher). The Magus Adept gets bonus spell patterns (see below) per day as a wizard would bonus spells per day based on Intelligence, however they also get bonus spell slots (see below) per day as a Sorcerer based on Charisma. Bonus patterns resulting from Intelligence increases due to items or spell effects are not available when the Intelligence enhancement decreases. Bonus spell slots gained based on the characters inherent Charisma score, not on Charisma from items or spell effects. A Magus Adept must prepare spell patterns each day in a manner similar to a wizard preparing his spells. At a regular time each day the Magus Adept must select a focus item and prepare their spell patterns onto that item. Preparing a spell pattern determines a spells form and ability for the character for that day. Spells are chosen and prepared into patterns onto their focus item as a wizard would memorize thier daily spells, applying metamagic feats and other alterations to the spells at that time. (i.e. if the caster wishes to be able to cast maximized fireballs today, they better fill a 6th level pattern with Maximized fireball) Due to the limitations on the patterns, a base spell may not be altered by metamagic more than 5 spell levels for a Magus Adept. (i.e. you can quicken and silent a spell for +5 levels, but you cant quicken and empower a spell for +6 levels) If a Magus Adept cant prepare spells on a day, the patterns they set the previous day will still be on the item, but will have decayed some resulting in the spells being cast at one lower caster level per day since the patterns were prepared. Preparing a new set of patterns into a different item removes all patters from previous focus items. The focus item must be either the Magus Adepts familiar or a non-magical non-living object which can be moved. A Magus Adept can only use their familiar as a focus if they take the Find Familiar feat as a first level class ability (see below). If the Magus Adept uses their familiar for a focus and the familiar dies, the patterns stored on the familiar are lost for that day. Splitting the patterns over multiple items is possible, however it requires more time for setting up each focus item. For each item more than one the Magus Adept uses as its focus for the day, their preparation time will increase by half an hour per item beyond the first. So, if a Magus Adept chooses to use 2 focus items it will require an hour and a half to prepare the spell patterns. 3 Items will require 2 hours, 4 items 2 and a half, etc. In order to cast a spell the Magus Adept must have the focus item containing the pattern of the spell he wishes to cast in their possession and available similar to a clerics Holy symbol. They then use up a spell slot and cast the spell, retaining the usual casting times, components etc. Spells with metamagic applied to them do not incur any increase in casting time, as the metamagic was applied in preparation, however, no metamagic not prepared in the spells pattern can be applied to the spell, including Sudden metamagic, divine metamagic and metamagic from items. Casting a spell does not use up the pattern for the spell, they can still cast more of that type of spell. Both spell patterns per day and spell slots per day are determined by caster level on the table above. Feats and other abilities that use up prepared spells or spell slots will use up a spell slot for the Magus Adept. Attacks upon the Magus Adept that use up, remove or destroy a spell slot or prepared spell will remove a spell slot 75% of the time, or remove a spell pattern the remaining 25% of the time. If the attacker would reasonable know how the Magus Adept casting works (Knowledge arcana DC20) or has seen and understood Magus Adept casting (Spell craft DC 15) they can decide before the attack whether to remove spell slots or spell patterns. If the Magus Adept enters an Anti-magic field their focus items are suppressed for the duration they are in the field and the Magus Adept cannot cast and spells. Dispelling a Magus Adepts focus results in the loss of the highest spell pattern prepared in it. Familiar: A Magus Adept can obtain a familiar in exactly the same manner as a sorcerer or wizard can. At first level the Magus Adept has the option to not take the Obtain Familiar feat and get a different feat instead. This alternate feat must be related to spell casting and cannot be a metamagic feat. A Magus Adept that decides to take the alternate feat but obtains a familiar in another fashion or from another class cannot use their familiar as their focus item. Scribe Scroll: At 1st level, a Magus Adept gains Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat. Bonus Feats: At 6th, 12th, and 18th level, a Magus Adept gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, he can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or Spell Mastery. The Magus Adept must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. The Magus Adept is not limited to the categories of item creation feats, metamagic feats, or Spell Mastery when choosing these feats. Spellbooks: A Magus Adept must study his spellbook each day to prepare his spell patterns. He cannot prepare any spell pattern not recorded in his spellbook, except for read magic, which all Magus Adept can prepare from memory. A Magus Adept begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level Magus Adept plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the Magus Adept has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new Magus Adept level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new Magus Adept level) for his spellbook. At any time, a Magus Adept can also add spells found in other arcane casters spellbooks to his own. Notes: I am most concerned with these things: Open to suggestions on a better name. Balance of the class vs other casters in terms of spells per day Trouble spots/interactions with other classes/PrCs leading to breakage The Effect of Dispell magic on the focus item. I had some complicated thing but then realized that it came down to what I put here Thinking about adding Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense motive to the skill list ANY other criticisms others may have for the class Toying with the idea of making only the familiar allowable for a focus and giving the familiar boosts or haveing the familiar boost the spells or something if used as focus. Thank you all in advance Hughman |
| Xylem04-21-06, 04:35 PM | I present the Magus AdeptThe name is awful, and sounds (a) generic, and (b) confusing with the NPC class the Adept. This class is sort of more like an Educated Sorcerer or maybe (using what looks like your older terminology) a Focused Sorcerer. <><> Insert Table 3-18 from PHB here with alteration of bonus feats on 6, 12 and 18 not 5, 10, 15 and 20 <><> This not very helpful for a class posted on-line. How about instead a link to the same information on-line, like here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard). However, with the semi-spontaneous casting, I would think the Sorcerer spells per day table would be more appropriate, perhaps using the Sorcerer spells known table for how many spells patterns they can prepare. Magus Adept are proficient with all simple weapons.This makes them slightly better with weapons than Wizards -- any particular reason why? A Magus Adept casts arcane spells, which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. The primary attributes for spell casting for a Magus Adept are Charisma and Intelligence. To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the Magus Adept must have an Intelligence or Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Magus Adepts spell is 10 + the spell level + the Magus Adepts Intelligence or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher). Benefiting from the higher of Intelligence and Charisma is unbalanced -- no other spellcasting class gets this. Probably to lean, prepare or cast would use Intelligence and DC would use Charisma. The Magus Adept gets bonus spell patterns (see below) per day as a wizard would bonus spells per day based on Intelligence, however they also get bonus spell slots (see below) per day as a Sorcerer based on Charisma. Bonus patterns resulting from Intelligence increases due to items or spell effects are not available when the Intelligence enhancement decreases. Bonus spell slots gained based on the characters inherent Charisma score, not on Charisma from items or spell effects.This seems more reasonable. A focus mage must prepare spell patterns each day in a manner similar to a wizard preparing his spells. Focus mage? Bonus Feats: At 5th, 12th, and 18th level, a Magus Adept gains a bonus feat.Surely you mean 6th? Thinking about adding Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense motive to the skill listWhy? Toying with the idea of making only the familiar allowable for a focus and giving the familiar boosts or haveing the familiar boost the spells or something if used as focus.This sounds likely to be more trouble than it is worth. Well, this is interesting. I worry that there should be more drawbacks to the greater flexibility. |
| Aniona_Amakiir04-21-06, 04:49 PM | I think its kinda cool, however it is probably better if you explain the pattern things a bit better, cause i am asking myself: 1. How long does it take to create a pattern? 2. How long does a pattern last? If more than 1-2 days then its probably overpowered since you can simply stock up on spells for free before a big fight. 3. If you spontaneously add a metamagic feat do you use up a random/chasen pattern of a higher level? 4. Focus items in general must be explained better, what size are they, must they be worth anything? How many can you have? And such. Also just use arcane spell failure instead of automatic failure when using armor? Also please never refer to something in a book, espcially not one thats part of the SRD. If it is the table that i think then here is a link: URL=http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/wizard.html] www.systemreferencedocuments.org/...[/URL] And here is a [ CODE ]ed table: Lvl BAB Fo Re Wi Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Summon familiar, Scribe Scroll 3 1 2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 4 2 3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 4 2 1 4th +2 +1 +1 +4 4 3 2 5th +2 +1 +1 +4 4 3 2 1 6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Bonus feat 4 3 3 2 7th +3 +2 +2 +5 4 4 3 2 1 8th +4 +2 +2 +6 4 4 3 3 2 9th +4 +3 +3 +6 4 4 4 3 2 1 10th +5 +3 +3 +7 4 4 4 3 3 2 11th +5 +3 +3 +7 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 12th +6 +4 +4 +8 Bonus feat 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 13th +6 +4 +4 +8 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 14th +7 +4 +4 +9 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 15th +7 +5 +5 +9 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 16th +8 +5 +5 +10 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 17th +8 +5 +5 +10 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 18th +9 +6 +6 +11 Bonus feat 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 19th +9 +6 +6 +11 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 20th +10+6 +6 +12 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 Oh and just as you know if you do not want this table or if its the wrong one then you will be on my list... (it took lie 30 min to get it to a good CODE format) Edit: I see that xylem beat me to it (damn that table for taking so much time) but that doesnt give you the right to ignore me! :P And if you now had so much troblue with the table then use mine... |
| hughman04-21-06, 05:29 PM | The name is awful, and sounds (a) generic, and (b) confusing with the NPC class the Adept. This class is sort of more like an Educated Sorcerer or maybe (using what looks like your older terminology) a Focused Sorcerer. Yeah it is bad, I had originally been calling it Focus Mage, but that isn't much better. I also toyed with somehting like Behbow Mage but that sounded cheezy. Open to suggestings. This not very helpful for a class posted on-line. How about instead a link to the same information on-line, like here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard). Granted but after beating my head against that table for 20 mins I thought that MOST of us here would know to look in the SRD since I said it was a standard table. However, with the semi-spontaneous casting, I would think the Sorcerer spells per day table would be more appropriate, perhaps using the Sorcerer spells known table for how many spells patterns they can prepare.I really struggle even now with how many spells and what not. The way I see it is that the Sorcerer gains more spells for day in exchange for the limited casting list. This class doesn't have that restriction so shouldn't get to cast as many spells in a day. You are giving up quantity for flexibility. On the other hand, from the Wizard's perspective you gain a lot of power, now you CAN mem those situationally useful spells that you avoided before cause you know that you arn't compelled to cast them or loose them. You can always use the slots on other spells. Using the sorc table s also gives you the slower spell progression, which I really don't like. I don't see any reason in game or in metagame for this class to be slower to advance in casting ability than a wizard. This makes them slightly better with weapons than Wizards -- any particular reason why?I cut and pasted that portion form the Sorcer rather than the Wizard and it hadn't sunk in that it is different. Changed now. Benefiting from the higher of Intelligence and Charisma is unbalanced -- no other spellcasting class gets this. Probably to lean, prepare or cast would use Intelligence and DC would use Charisma.Long respose deleted as I need to think more about it... you may be right but I am not convinced and awaiting other's opinions.Focus mage? Oops, that was my Work in Progress name... but it is nearly as weak as what I posted. Surely you mean 6th? yes Thinking about adding Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense motive to the skill list Why?For the same reason that Bluff is on the Sorcerer skill list. I hate to see an attribute as a dominant for a class that doesn't have the applicable skills relating to it on the class skill list. Thank you for the input, changes have been made. I will think on the casting attributes issue. Anyone else care to comment? Hughman. |
| Aniona_Amakiir04-21-06, 05:41 PM | If you look on the post between your post and xylems you will find some feedback... :P |
| hughman04-21-06, 06:02 PM | 1. How long does it take to create a pattern? 2. How long does a pattern last? If more than 1-2 days then its probably overpowered since you can simply stock up on spells for free before a big fight. 3. If you spontaneously add a metamagic feat do you use up a random/chasen pattern of a higher level? 4. Focus items in general must be explained better, what size are they, must they be worth anything? How many can you have? And such. Also just use arcane spell failure instead of automatic failure when using armor? Beautiful table... and I have learned from it too! thanks! thanks! thanks! By the numbers for you: 1) Making pattersn is an intergral part of your spell preparation time. you prepare your spells as a wizard, taking an hour to prepare your full set of spells, thus putting all your patterns on your (single) focus in an hour.A Magus Adept must prepare spell patterns each day in a manner similar to a wizard preparing his spells. At a regular time each day the Magus Adept must select a focus item and prepare their spell patterns onto that item. Preparing a spell pattern determines a spells form and ability for the character for that day. Spells are chosen and prepared as a wizard would, applying metamagic feats and other alterations tot he spells at that time. (i.e. if the caster wishes to be able to cast maximized fireballs today, they better fill a 6th level pattern with Maximized fireball) Due to the limitations on the patterns, a base spell may not be altered by metamagic more than 5 spell levels for a Magus Adept. (i.e. you can quicken and silent a spell for +5 levels, but you cant quicken and empower a spell for +6 levels) I will update and clarify this a little. 2) (not stated but implied) Patterns last indefinitely untill you prepare spells again. If you don't prepare your spells and just reuse your old patterns you cast your spells at a disadvantage of 1 lower caster level per day since you prepared spells. So, for example you prepare your spells on Monday, and you get thrown into prison and can't get to your spell book. On tuesday you have your full number of spells available to cast, but everyone that you cast, (presuming the guards didn't take your focus item) will be at one lower level CL, On Thursday you are casting at -3 CL and so on.If a Magus Adept cant prepare spells on a day, the patterns they set the previous day will still be on the item, but will have decayed some resulting in the spells being cast at one lower caster level per day since the patterns were prepared. 3) You can't. Not even Sudden Maximize. Nothing, no how, no way. Though I might make an allowance for Energy substitution feat. Only way you can Metamagic a spell is to prepare it Meta'd.no metamagic not prepared in the spells pattern can be applied to the spell, including Sudden metamagic, divine metamagic and metamagic from items. 4)No limits, but that they can't be magic themselves. Could be a stringb of beads, a shawl, a (movable) throne or 40 pebbles. If you use more than one item (like the 40 pebbles) each additional item you use for a focus increases the amount of time to prepare your spell patterns is all. I think that for our 40 pebbles example you are looking at something like 20 and a half hours total prep time.The focus item must be either the Magus Adepts familiar or a non-magical non-living object which can be moved. A Magus Adept can only use their familiar as a focus if they take the Find Familiar feat as a first level class ability (see below). If the Magus Adept uses their familiar for a focus and the familiar dies, the patterns stored on the familiar are lost for that day. Splitting the patterns over multiple items is possible, however it requires more time for setting up each focus item. For each item more than one the Magus Adept uses as its focus for the day, their preparation time will increase by half an hour per item beyond the first. So, if a Magus Adept chooses to use 2 focus items it will require an hour and a half to prepare the spell patterns. 3 Items will require 2 hours, 4 items 2 and a half, etc. Extra) Just like Wizards and Sorcerers, you get Arcane spell failiure. That section is verbatim out of the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) Twist it as you will, but do it to the wizards and Sorcerers as well. Thank your for your help on the table... I learned a lot from seeing it in actual code as I couldn't get it to just cust and past either from text or stealing it from another post. ok, more changes needed? Thoughts? opinions? Hughman |
| Aniona_Amakiir04-21-06, 06:15 PM | I cant see anything but the thing about spell failure it was a missreading by me i΄thought it said will fail when it said can fail :rolleyes: I like it, but i do not really understand what tactical versatility it provides beyond that of the wizard. |
| hughman04-21-06, 06:47 PM | Tactcally, you get nearly all the advantage of the Sorcerer. OK, in detail by example let's look at a 6th level Magus Adept. For the sake of this examle we will ignore bonus spell patterns and slots, as they only make it more advantageous. at 6th level they can prepare 4 3 3 2 in spells. Possible spell mix: 0-level: Detect Magic, Light, Touch of Fatigue, and Mage Hand 1st-level:Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Detect Secret Doors 2nd-level:Knock, Resist Energy, Scorching Ray 3rd-level: Fireball, Invisibility Sphere, Wind Wall OK, couple odd choices there, but bear with me. Now a Wizard with those spells prepared can cast one of each of those spells, right? but the Magus Adept can cast 3 Detect magic and one Mage hand if he needs to, like wise for 3rd level spells, he can cast 2 Fireballs and, should a hundred Kobold archers pop around the corner Wind Wall. Or, he can Invis Sphere the group and Fireball, then Invis Sphere the group again! For that matter, he can even cast Knock again, if he has used all his 2nd level spell slots. That is Tactical versatility, you can adapt and cast the spells you need, when you need them, and not worry about having to save them for later. That is what I love about the Sorcerer; if you know the spell, you can cast it. Many times, if need be, or just once. The wizard is stuck with the decisions he made hours ago (in game time) and has to hope that he doesn't run out of Scrolls to make up for the gaps. Assuming your DM lets you have time to make scrolls. Hughman |
| Hariman04-22-06, 01:40 PM | Looks pretty good. I think the inscribed patterns should simply last without penalty, because after 20 days without a spellbook, this class can't cast anything unless epic. Either that or they shouldn't even have to scribe the patterns. Spirit Shamans don't need the patterns, just the time to prepare their daily spells. So requiring something special follows the WotC pattern of "Divine is better than Arcane" and we all know that that is fair and balanced. I've also decided to post my own take on a semi spontaneous wizard. The Impromptu Wizard (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=626094) |
| Zitchas04-22-06, 01:47 PM | First off, what does PEACH stand for, if anything? I keep seeing it everywhere, and it's starting to look like an orchard in here. Secondly, it's a good concept, might need a bit of work yet, though. |
| Aniona_Amakiir04-22-06, 02:48 PM | Please Examine And Criticise Honestly And now i get the pattern part; me likes ;) |
| hughman04-22-06, 06:37 PM | Looks pretty good. I think the inscribed patterns should simply last without penalty, because after 20 days without a spellbook, this class can't cast anything unless epic. Actually I look at that as an improvement over a wizard and a step down from the Sorcerer. The wizard looses his spell book and he can't cast anything else, Unless he has spell mastery or wants to REad Magic a lot. This way, if they do loose their spell book they aren't completely messed over but can't carry on with business as usual like the sorcerer. Either that or they shouldn't even have to scribe the patterns. Spirit Shamans don't need the patterns, just the time to prepare their daily spells. So requiring something special follows the WotC pattern of "Divine is better than Arcane" and we all know that that is fair and balanced.Actually the mechanic for my class and the Spirit Shaman is identical. I am mostly using the patterns for both flavor and clarity, though I seem to have missed on the clarity part. I've also decided to post my own take on a semi spontaneous wizard. The Impromptu Wizard (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=626094) Cool I will have to look at it later on when I have some time. Zitchas, what work do you see needing to be done? I am looking for any opinons on that, as my own love and familiarity for the work are blinding me from what changes are needed. Thanks again! Hughman |