Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mandos13 01-26-08, 04:46 AM	starting a new campaign. i'll prolly be the only arcane spell caster. other guys are playing a ninja and a paladin (there might be a rogue and a druid joining us too). i was planning on doing mostly blasting (or maybe sniping) but i'll need to be able to throw out some buffs and utiliy spells too. we'll be playing this campaign for a while so i was wondering on a build. we'll be starting at lvl 5. i'm thinking about trading my familiar for something else too. i'd be open to any and all suggestions. adjusted stats at lvl 5: str: 9, dex:18, con: 18, wis: 18, int: 18, cha: 26 (my DM does stats way different than normal. i happened to get VERY lucky) thanks in advance!!
Naderion 01-26-08, 05:54 AM	Any Class with full spell progression is always better than any more sorcerer levels needed to qualify for it.
Axiomatic_vampire 01-26-08, 07:49 AM	starting a new campaign. i'll prolly be the only arcane spell caster. other guys are playing a ninja and a paladin (there might be a rogue and a druid joining us too). i was planning on doing mostly blasting (or maybe sniping) but i'll need to be able to throw out some buffs and utiliy spells too. we'll be playing this campaign for a while so i was wondering on a build. we'll be starting at lvl 5. i'm thinking about trading my familiar for something else too. i'd be open to any and all suggestions. adjusted stats at lvl 5: str: 9, dex:18, con: 18, wis: 18, int: 18, cha: 26 (my DM does stats way different than normal. i happened to get VERY lucky) thanks in advance!! I cannot in good conscience recommend improving that character with a prestige class. I think he's gonna be alright, straight sorc.
serow_#R 01-26-08, 08:12 AM	Any Class with full spell progression is always better than any more sorcerer levels needed to qualify for it.+1 :)
JamesMaissen 01-26-08, 08:18 AM	i'd be open to any and all suggestions. thanks in advance!! Are you wedded to the idea of a sorcerer over a wizard? A wizard is much more forgiving in that you can change out spells. -James
Qube 01-26-08, 10:21 AM	chaos mage.
Tommyboy 01-26-08, 11:42 AM	How about meta magic sorcerer in PHBII? Not a prestige class but worth looking into.
Malicea 01-26-08, 05:40 PM	starting a new campaign. i'll prolly be the only arcane spell caster. other guys are playing a ninja and a paladin (there might be a rogue and a druid joining us too). i was planning on doing mostly blasting (or maybe sniping) but i'll need to be able to throw out some buffs and utiliy spells too. we'll be playing this campaign for a while so i was wondering on a build. we'll be starting at lvl 5. i'm thinking about trading my familiar for something else too. i'd be open to any and all suggestions. adjusted stats at lvl 5: str: 9, dex:18, con: 18, wis: 18, int: 18, cha: 26 (my DM does stats way different than normal. i happened to get VERY lucky) thanks in advance!! Fatespinner is a good PrC for a sorc that you can throw in without much forethought. With your Int as high as it is, you won't even notice the skill point commitment. Your spell save DCs will be fairly insane, which goes well with Fatespinner abilities. Archmages make good blasters later, with Mastery of Elements and Mastery of Shaping. Heavy feat commitment though. Alternatively, with that many skill points (especially if you're human), you could start with 1 level of Rogue, 4 Sorcerer and then pick up 2 levels of Unseer Seer, and qualify for Arcane Trickster with only a 1 level loss of spellcasting. Able Learner would ease the skill point expenditure greatly. The impromptu/sneak attack bonus would make you somewhat more of a sniper. Well, a 30' sniper, at any rate ;) This is especially useful if you plan to be the party 'face'. A familiar is pretty nice to have at mid-late levels, because of the Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability spell. You'll have far too many low level spell slots by then, but by Imbuing spells like Celerity, Hailstones and Arcane Fusion, your familiar can do quite a bit of damage in a short period, with those low level spells. If you PrC a lot, it might be worth losing your familar for an alternate class ability (like Metamagic Specialist) and picking it up later with the Obtain Familiar feat.
dman11235 01-26-08, 06:45 PM	Okay, now, we here aren't the psionics board, we can't read your mind. You'll need to tell us what you want to do. There are a LOT of good PrCs out there, so if you could narrow it down that would be lovely. Also: this is CharOp territory.
mandos13 01-27-08, 06:30 AM	tommyboy: good idea, i think i might go with that instead of a familiar qube: i'm not familiar with chaos mage. it's not like wild mage is it? thanks malicea for some good ideas. i'll have to look into them dman: in other words, i want to be a high damage dealer without completely forsaking other roles as a sorc. granted i realize they'll be reduced somewhat oh, and whats charOp?
The_Shaman 01-27-08, 11:59 AM	CharOp is short for the Character Optimization boards. If you want to juice up your build through legal (or at least not illegal) methods, go there. However, read their posting guidelines first if you would consult them. I personally value the familiar a lot, but it requires some care and can be a liability. Still, it can be an invaluable aid. If you want to blast well without losing too much versatility, my first bet would be the PGtF* Incantatrix: a great PrC for a caster using metamagic - which you probably will want to for all those empowered/quickened/admixed spells, which also has relatively decent prerequisites and good to very good (some say broken - read the errata before putting it in the game) abilities. It's like the Mercedes of sorcerer PrCs and is good for nearly any character. For blasting, the Frost Mage from Frostburn has a few tricks up his sleave, and the Sand Shaper from Sandstorm has enough goodies in the first 8 levels to be useful even after the lost casting level... including an ability that acts like a Sudden X feat several times per day. *: Player's Guide to Faerun. While there's nothing tying the Incantatrix to FR lore, many DMs do not like importing setting material.
Malicea 01-27-08, 09:24 PM	dman: in other words, i want to be a high damage dealer without completely forsaking other roles as a sorc. granted i realize they'll be reduced somewhat oh, and whats charOp? Being able to blast while not giving up utility is often more of a spell and feat choice decision, than prestige-classing. Sorcs' main limitation is the number of spells known, so your primary objective will be to pick up the best and most versatile blasting spells, and save the rest of your spells known for utility (which I think is a good idea for sorcs generally anyway). A versatile range of blasting ability needs to target different saves, cover area effects, cover different elements and avoid SR when necessary. Some good spells are: Scorching Ray, Hailstones, Orb of Fire, Orb of Force, Channeled Pyroburst - the last is especially good with Arcane Spellsurge. Beyond spell choice, feats can increase the versatility of your blasting spells, saving you from having to take multiple blasting spells in many cases. Empower spell for example, lets you use higher level slots to blast more effectively, while you to use the higher level spells known to pick up utility spells. Sculpt spell allows you to a single area effect spell choice to cover whatever the situation demands. The Archmage PrC is fairly good at improving blasting ability. Mastery of Elements turns a single good blasting spell into any element you like spontaneously, exploiting vulnerabilities and avoiding immunities and resistances without having to pick 5 different elemental blasting spells. An elementally altered Orb of Fire for example, can potentially do 50% more damage through elemental vulnerability, while ignoring SR and possibly dazing the target. Empower that for even more fun. Mastery of Shaping allows you to blast with area effects indiscriminately, avoiding your allies every time. Spell Power will scale up your blasting damage a little faster. However, the heavy feat requirements means you'll have fewer feats to improve spell versatility with. I've deliberately avoided being overly specific with suggestions. The specific examples above are to illustrate the principles behind being a good blasting sorcerer (which includes, as you wisely realized already, utility spell ability).
dman11235 01-28-08, 12:08 AM	Also, another good feat to take is either Scorching spell or that one from Frostburn that does the same thing with cold: ignore resistance, half damage for those immune.
SkipSandwich 01-28-08, 12:28 AM	Mage of the Arcane Order is a great PrC for sorcerers in my opinion, spellpool access solves many of the sorcerer's limited spells known issues, and the bonus metamagic feats make up for the ones you have to take to qualify (cooperative spell and arcane preperation, at least the later lets you qualify for quicken spell later). Its also a full progression class, so you really don't lose anything by taking it except for the feat prerequisites.
teshen 01-28-08, 04:14 AM	Granted, they're not prcs, but if you have access to the Dragon Compendium, there are a few bloodline feats that grant a sorcerer a spell at each level that do not count against spells known. They could be pretty useful depending on what you want. And in that vein, I second The_Shaman's suggestions about the incantrix and the sand shaper. The sand shaper adds a lot of spells to the spells you can cast without using up any of your spells known spots, and a lot of the free metamagic is just fun. The incantrix goes a long way to help the sorcerer as magic theme and giving up one school of magic hurts a sorcerer less than it's wizard counterpart. I also didn't note a race, but if you are a changeling, that opens the possiblity of Recaster, a prc out of Races of Eberron. That coupled with the racial emulation feat and levels in Shadowcraft mage out of Races of Stone could be pretty cool... with all the naughtiness that comes with the shadowcraft mage.
Malicea 01-28-08, 09:09 AM	Also, another good feat to take is either Scorching spell or that one from Frostburn that does the same thing with cold: ignore resistance, half damage for those immune. There is an odd difference in the wording of those two feats. Searing Spell does appear to work on all creatures with fire immunity, but Piercing Cold specifically states within its description that creatures with the cold subtype (and hence immune to cold) remain undamaged. That said, Searing Spell is indeed an excellent feat! Burn it all down!!
dawnbringer 01-28-08, 09:15 AM	take a level of barbarian and go for rage mage xD.
The_Shaman 01-28-08, 11:32 AM	Do you have to? Anyway, piercing cold works best on a Frost mage. I'm not sure about the basic feat, but in the hands of a FM it works on cold-immune creatures as well.
solbergb 01-28-08, 12:53 PM	Any Class with full spell progression is always better than any more sorcerer levels needed to qualify for it. No, it is not always better. Not if you gave up feats that you didn't want to qualify. The class abilites take a while to pay off the lost feats. This is true to a lesser extent of skill point and/or spell known requirements. There are very few full casting PRC's that don't require wasting a feat on something that doesn't improve your current power. For a sorcerer spells known are most of his power, and he gets more every level (odd levels more spells, even levels one spell+cantrip plus opportunity to change a earlier one. Only level 2 is a "dead" level, as cantrips aren't very exciting) Because metamagic feats and some heritage feats essentially translate into even more spells known, losing even one is a very big deal. Only losing a spell level has a bigger impact on a sorcerer (just say no to that. Straight sorcerer is better than any sorc that has lost a caster level, at least pre-epic)
Tectorman 01-28-08, 01:36 PM	If you can't think of anything else, just go "ArchMage" from the DMG once you hit 16th level. Would you rather have... -five levels of spellcasting class -five High Arcana abilities -your Will save progression restarts -continuing d4 HD -same skill points per level (although you've had to sacrifice a fair number of skill points to ranks in a couple of skills) -fewer levels to progress your familiar's abilities (a nonissue if you take the PHB II variant for the Sorcerer) or... -five levels of spellcasting class -your Will saves progress as normal -continuing d4 HD -same skill points per level (and while you have skill points to devote to ranks in skills that you can use better, your class skills stay the same) -your familiar will progress as normal (this requires you to have kept your familiar)?
solbergb 01-28-08, 05:11 PM	If you can't think of anything else, just go "ArchMage" from the DMG once you hit 16th level. Would you rather have... -five levels of spellcasting class -five High Arcana abilities -your Will save progression restarts -continuing d4 HD -same skill points per level (although you've had to sacrifice a fair number of skill points to ranks in a couple of skills) -fewer levels to progress your familiar's abilities (a nonissue if you take the PHB II variant for the Sorcerer) and also wasting one feat on skill focus spellcraft and spending two feats on stuff that give a lot less back than metamagic (two spell focus feats) Saving throw and BAB progression for this option is: (BAB/Fort/Reflex/Will 16: 7/5/5/11 17: 8/5/5/12 18: 8/6/6/12 19: 9/6/6/13 20: 9/6/6/13 or... -five levels of spellcasting class -your Will saves progress as normal -continuing d4 HD -same skill points per level (and while you have skill points to devote to ranks in skills that you can use better, your class skills stay the same) -your familiar will progress as normal (this requires you to have kept your familiar)? [/QUOTE] and getting 3 feats you had to waste on archmage, to instead spend on things like rapid metamagic, quicken spell, twin spell, chain spell, capstone heritage feats, etc. Also keeping in mind that you had to start wasting those feats as early as level 9, so you've been behind the curve for 6 levels by the time you even begin to enter archmage. Saving throw and BAB progression for this option is: (BAB/Fort/Reflex/Will 16: 8/5/5/10 (one more BAB, one less will) 17: 8/5/5/10 (same BAB, 2 less will) 18: 8/6/6/11 (one more bab, one less will) 19: 9/6/6/11 (same BAB, 2 less will) 20: 10/6/6/12 (one more bab, one less will) Different builds value BAB vs will save differently. (people who like ray spells, or telekenesis tend to value BAB more) The real tradeoff by level 20 is being behind 1 feat for 11 levels, 2 feats for 8 levels, 3 feats for 5 levels compared to the five high arcana that you only get to enjoy for 4,3,2 and 1 level, respectively. Plus a bab for will save tradeoff. Not that many sorcerers bother with archmage, unless their build has two different spell focus feats in it already for some reason. Lets look at high arcana: Arcane fire: 20d6+spell level d6 of untyped damage. Ie 73.5-101.5 damage. A sorcerer choosing "maximize" as one of his feats is going to do 90 damage with a L7 spell slot (orb), which is close enough as to not make any difference vs most enemies although granted arcane fire is not energy typed and has much better range. This is much more valuable for a wizard, who can sacrifice a bad spell pick for the day in order to get some damage from it. Arcane Reach: (once 30', twice 60'). Or you could just get "reach spell" as one of your feats to get close range, which at archmage levels is > 60'. Mastery of Counterspelling: This is fairly unique. Or you could just take spell turning as a spell known and recast it when it's used up. Mastery of Elements: I could take energy substitution 3 times for the cost of being an archmage *shrug*. Even taking it once gets you most of this benefit. Mastery of Shaping: See "extraordinary spell aim" feat, and not as limited in what spells it can affect. Spell power: fairly unique, although a number of equipment pieces out there replicate this. Spell-like ablity: Sorcerers don't need this. They can already cast all of their spells out of their spell slots, although saving on the spell comps on one spell is slightly better than what a sorc can already do. Careful use of five of these plus a spell mix that takes advantage of your spell focus feats *might* by level 20 be superior to just taking 3 similar feats. But you wouldn't be as happy in the level 9-18 range, probably.
dman11235 01-28-08, 06:22 PM	Mastery of Elements: it has sonic. No sonic en sub. That's "5" feats for the cost of 3, add in mastery of shaping and that's another (also it is slightly more versitile as is elements) And reach? well, the feat is a little better, 30 feet is plenty for that vampiric touch. Counterspelling: it doesn't take a precious spell known slot. A high level one. A lot are already going to have dispel greater, so it's not really a spell known lost. And it doesn't have a limit like spell turning does. You are right that you have to spend quite a few resources to get this stuff though, and that's the dilema, and what makes it balanced. Spend the worthless (mostly) feats for these benifits?
Malicea 01-28-08, 07:03 PM	Mastery of Elements: it has sonic. No sonic en sub. That's "5" feats for the cost of 3, add in mastery of shaping and that's another (also it is slightly more versitile as is elements) And reach? well, the feat is a little better, 30 feet is plenty for that vampiric touch. Counterspelling: it doesn't take a precious spell known slot. A high level one. A lot are already going to have dispel greater, so it's not really a spell known lost. And it doesn't have a limit like spell turning does. You are right that you have to spend quite a few resources to get this stuff though, and that's the dilema, and what makes it balanced. Spend the worthless (mostly) feats for these benifits? Mastery of Elements and Shaping are definitely the top picks for Archmages. Shaping with Disjunction later on is ftw. The feat picks aren't THAT bad. Improving DC is hard to do with items, and both feat and item would stack anyway. On the other side, Metamagic Rods aren't that expensive. Lesser Empower and Maximize rods will stand you in good stead for most of the mid-levels. You wouldn't normally be able to use the metamagic feat on anything over level 3 at those levels anyway. Skill Focus: Spellcraft is actually useful for epic levels heh.
dman11235 01-28-08, 07:11 PM	Skill Focus is also useful for sorc, since they don't prioritize int. I've actually been saved because I had it. First and last time, of course.
solbergb 01-28-08, 07:49 PM	I don't find the maximize and empower rods to be all that affordable - it's a big decision that uses up most of your cash in the levels where they're actually useful. I've seen sorcs and warmages go down that road, generally the blaster-oriented characters. (the kinds who would be thinking about arcane fire if they took archmage) The 3k rods are much more affordable, but don't really stack up well to actually having the feat on a sorcerer. (you have to fuss with getting it into your hand, and 3/day isn't enough for some ways sorcs use spells). There are a lot of sorcerers that really don't rely on save DC's for anything - their spells are primarily stuff that works without a save and if a save is failed, that's gravy (examples, most battlefield control spells, most rays, all buffs). So the spell focus feats would be purely wasted and much better spent on something that expands their options and extends the life of their lower level spells as combat spells. Even a sorc that does like some save/die spells will likely want heighten spell over spell focus, if his low level save/xx spells are stoppers. The typical sorcerer approach to a passed DC is to cast the spell again. A luxury most wizards don't have. Being able to do that generally is worth more than a +1 DC although it will occasionally cost you more time (5% of the time) vs a wizard who racked multiple versions of the same spell who had spell focus. As for skill focus, ANY sorcerer can find something better to spend a feat on, except in the very lowest levels where skill focus concentration might be worth a look (and retrained away later). Extraordinary spell aim can be taken as early as level 9, waiting for level 16 and spending 3 feats isn't that attractive. Really simulating the element mastery arcana is quite difficult for a sorcerer (warmages do it by having all the elemental spells to begin with) and is only useful if a number of his spells known are actually elemental based. A sorc like that often loads up on one element and either gets something like searing spell, which makes it work on everything, nonlethal substitution, which makes it untyped on any living creature for a +1 level bump or gets energy substitution to something that it's unlikely a creature will be immune to both. (and they suck up resistance 10). Skill focus feats are at the bottom of the feat pool in usefulness. Spell focus isn't quite as bad, but it's only marginally better than things like combat casting and tougness on a sorcerer, compared to what he can do with a metamagic feat that complements his spells (PHB or otherwise) or with any of a number of feats that focus on doing more with spellcasting than making a failed save slightly more likely (several heritage feats, rapid metamagic, extraordinary spell aim, arcane mastery, that thing where you can move-cast-move with high concentration checks, feats that lower metamagic cost, magical tactical feats etc...all of these outside the PHB) Even a vanilla PHB sorcerer can generally find something good to do with his level 1-12 feats that's better than spell focus, especially in two separate schools.
Malicea 01-28-08, 08:41 PM	I'd have to disagree with assessment of the cost completely. 2 Lesser Metamagic Rods of Empower are the price of a single +3 weapon, and allow you to most likely Empower all the spells you'll need to in a single day. Not to mention the rods only require the use of 3rd level slots, leaving the 5th-6th level slots free. If anything, I've found that the Rods devalue metamagic feats to the point that I would only pick a feat if I wanted to stack metamagic effects. You've also ignored the fact the the sheer spammability of spontaneous casting makes it much more likely you'll be seeing use of your Spell Focus feats. A sorc who knows he's going for Archmage would quite likely pick his spells based on his Spell Focus choices. He's unlikely to pick low level 'stoppers', if he knows he's going to be using the low-mid level slots on Rod spells, and would save higher level spells known slots for the save/die. As noted, Searing Spell is good, but don't ignore the fact that Mastery of Elements combined with good creature knowledge (however that's done in your game) effectively empowers all your elemental spells against any creature with an elemental vulnerability. Skill Focus isn't even in the discussion. It's the only real 'price' to be paid to qualify for Archmage. 3 levels of 1 less feat (12-14) for the subsequent gain. Note that you'd get the use of a 'feat' at level 15, and at 16, the equivalent of 4 Energy Substitution feats (assuming sonic was even possible), which you'll measure against those 3 feat-levels lost. This makes it obvious of course, that the usefulness of Archmage really depends on the expected levels of play as well. If your game ends at level 15, obviously it's silly.
dman11235 01-28-08, 08:41 PM	If you plan things out, you can put those feats to more use than just qualifying for the PrC. Spell Focus in particular with the addition of CM, has at least one feat that has each school's spell focus as a prereq. Conjuration is especially good if you summon things at all (augment summoning, cloudy conjuration). Also solbergb, you forget that it's not three feats of little use for the benefit of the equivalent feat, it's those three for five levels of archmage possible. Three feats for both energy sub and Ex Sp Aim (take at level 12 by the way, and also, it's got similar skill point requirements), and improved versions of them, to boot. Also a stacking +1 CL. Or maybe Arcane Fire, it can be useful. Arcane reach? Don't have to spend the feat that increases the spell level as well.
mandos13 01-29-08, 06:00 AM	wow, i've gotten so many idea, i'm not sure where to begin. i think i for sure don't want to give up a lvl of spellcasting since it seems like there are viable options that dont require it. i think i agree with dman that archmage is a viable option especially since i'll be using this character for some time (or at least thats our plan). you end up with 3 crappy feats and 5 nice abilities as opposed to only 3 nice feats. frostmage and incantrix also seem like classes with a lot to gain by taking them. another question if i take levels of both elemental savant and archmage, would "elemental specialty" over-ride "mastery of elements" or would i still be able to cast elemental spells as any element? but thanks again for all the helpful discussion. keep conversing!
LSMFT 01-29-08, 11:14 AM	Whether the one would override the other is a question for your DM. Personally, I would say that the ability of the elemental savant trumps all else: you’re tuning into an freaking elemental creature here. When it changes all energy spells to a specific type, they are all that type all the time regardless. Any Class with full spell progression is always better than any more sorcerer levels needed to qualify for it.I have to agree with Solberg on his caveats. An archmage is a very powerful caster. Its abilities mesh well with those of a sorcerer, giving him awesome versatility and flexibility. He has more than enough spell-slots to trade in too. Once you get to it, the benefits quickly outstrip the costs. But you are now only level 5. Archmage is ten levels, well over a hundred encounters, away. The worst sorcerers are those who are more worried about being good in the distant future as opposed to being the best they can right now when your party is counting on you to be its primary arcane caster. They are counting on you in this battle. Not in some battle a year from now. Arcane reach? Don't have to spend the feat that increases the spell level as well.This really sums up my whole difference in perspective. Arcane Reach is hands down, irrefutably, no question just better than Reach Spell. Except that with Reach Spell, I can be making ranged Touch of Idiocy attacks at level 8 and the sorcerer who went the Archmage route won’t have that option until level 15.
Malicea 01-29-08, 01:15 PM	This really sums up my whole difference in perspective. Arcane Reach is hands down, irrefutably, no question just better than Reach Spell. Except that with Reach Spell, I can be making ranged Touch of Idiocy attacks at level 8 and the sorcerer who went the Archmage route won’t have that option until level 15. Definitely true. Playability and usefulness at all levels is important and I've argued this exact thing before. However, I'd also defend the route of the Archmage somewhat by defending Spell Focus as a feat, again with a view to using metamagic rods and making spell choices optimized to take advantage of Spell Focus. It's a different path to 15, but no less playable and useful IMO. I'm personally not that keen on Arcane Reach for Archmages, for the reason of optimization. Most touch spells don't allow saves, and hence don't benefit from Spell Focus. It's unlikely a sorc planning for Archmage would need reach for any touch spells he does know (probably only buffs). Interestingly enough, I recently faced this decision, albeit with a Beguiler. I already had the Spell Focuses (and 2 Greater ones as well! But it's extremely effective for Beguilers) and had to decide if I wanted to use the level 12 feat to pick up Skill Focus: Spellcraft. Ultimately I decided against it, because I knew the campaign was planned to end at around mid-way through level 16. It's important to note however, that it IS possible for a spontaneous caster to see very good utility out of Spell Focus feats, depending on the general type of spells known. Just to confuse you more Mandos13, the Stalwart Sorcerer alternate class feature gives you 2 more hp/level in exchange for knowing 1 less spell, but only counts actual sorcerer levels. It gives you quite a lot more survivability, but you'd probably want to go pure sorcerer all the way if you do pick it ;)
anonicon 01-29-08, 01:44 PM	If you want to blast well without losing too much versatility, my first bet would be the PGtF* Incantatrix: a great PrC for a caster using metamagic - which you probably will want to for all those empowered/quickened/admixed spells, which also has relatively decent prerequisites and good to very good (some say broken - read the errata before putting it in the game) abilities. (snip) *: Player's Guide to Faerun. While there's nothing tying the Incantatrix to FR lore, many DMs do not like importing setting material. I highly second Shaman's comment, especially since Sorcerers gain nothing outside of full caster progression after level 1. Incantatrix gives you 4 metamagic feats in 10 levels and some other nice class features. Some other strongly recommended basics for your Sorcerer (I'm no Sorc expert): Class - Abjurant Champion from Complete Mage p50. Not as powerful as Incantatrix, IMO, but still better than taking straight sorcerer. Feat - Accelerate Metamagic from Races of the Dragon p98. Your PC must have the Dragonblood subtype, but the book Dragon Magic has Dragonblood variants to every base race (human, elf, dwarf, etc). Great because you don't have to blow a feat to give your PC a Dragonblood subtype. Feat - Rapid Metamagic from Complete Mage p46. No need to have Dragonblood at all, but you can't get it until level 9 at the earliest. Variant - Sorcerer variant in Player's Handbook II. Highly recommended over the normal Sorcerer in PHB I. Links - Please read the Character Optimization sticky (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=482636) and look for links under the following headings (about 1/2 way down the page): Incantatrix Sorcerer Hope this helps.
Valthonis 01-29-08, 02:01 PM	I third the Incantatrix PrC. And the PHBII Metamagic Specialist variant goes well with it. This happens to be the build I'm playing now in my group and I'm loving it.:D
solbergb 01-29-08, 02:27 PM	I'd have to disagree with assessment of the cost completely. 2 Lesser Metamagic Rods of Empower are the price of a single +3 weapon, Nobody buys +3 equivalent weapons until levels 10-12. Usually a holy weapon or similar. Often not till 13-15. These rods are useful only in the level 6-11 range. After that, you can empower L3 slots just fine on your own dime, and have sufficient L5 slots to do so. You're also making the assumption that metamagic rods are always available whenever you want them. That depends on your GM, whereas your feat selection depends on you. Now then - if somebody makes use of the spell focus+extra feat from Complete Mage that takes advantage of this, some are very good (eg, unsettling enchantment - give them -2 to saves even if they're immune to your primary effect) it looks better, but a sorc who does that has just used 100% of his feats from level 1-15 unless he's human. With the right spell mix it can be ok, and metamagic rods might ease the pain a bit (although he's going to be short of cash for anything else if he really tries to simulate having the feat with the rods). The main thing is though that you want to kick monster behind at level 5, at level 10, and at level 15. Not just at level 20. Make sure you can. I don't think elemental savant and archmage have a lot of synergy. You're better off stacking elemental savant with something like searing spell or piercing cold or even nonlethal substitution, all of which can turn your "all my stuff is one element" spells into something that works on an enemy resistant or immune to the element. Also you don't want to go far enough into elemental savant to lose caster levels, probably. Elemental savant at least has useful feat prereqs (energy sub isn't a bad feat before you become a savant especially if you've already invested in something like searing spell or nonlethal sub, and the metamagic feat you had to take to qualify for energy sub is also probably useful) which means it's not as painful to enter as some PRCs.
solbergb 01-29-08, 02:37 PM	I third the Incantatrix PrC. And the PHBII Metamagic Specialist variant goes well with it. This happens to be the build I'm playing now in my group and I'm loving it.:D Incantrix is one of those good PRC's for sorcs. Only one feat required and not totally useless (iron will) which can be taken right before you enter the class, and gives back powerful class abilities very fast. So you'll only be "down a feat" for a level or two before you break even and then start reaping real benefits. It's Faerun specific though, which means it isn't available in all campaigns. If it is allowed, it's worth a look. Fatespinner (CA) and Ruathar (Races of Wild) also give stuff without requiring much significant in the way of reqs (no feats, and while fatespinner does require a spell known and skill points, only 5 skill points are really "wasted" on a typical sorc build)
LSMFT 01-29-08, 03:31 PM	Definitely true. Playability and usefulness at all levels is important and I've argued this exact thing before. However, I'd also defend the route of the Archmage somewhat by defending Spell Focus as a feat, again with a view to using metamagic rods and making spell choices optimized to take advantage of Spell Focus. It's a different path to 15, but no less playable and useful IMO.When I play a sorcerer, I try to have as much diversity in my spell-list as possible. What I mean is, I’m only going to have like one, maybe 2 direct damage/area spells. Having Spell Focus (evocation) isn’t going to change that. I will probably have 2 save-or-dies, one targeting Fort and a second for Will. With that type of strategy, you aren’t going to ever have a huge number of spells from a single school and that require a save. Having that diversity is always going to be a larger factor in my spell-selection than a +1 to my DC would. Interestingly enough, I recently faced this decision, albeit with a Beguiler. I already had the Spell Focuses (and 2 Greater ones as well! But it's extremely effective for Beguilers) <snip> It's important to note however, that it IS possible for a spontaneous caster to see very good utility out of Spell Focus feats, depending on the general type of spells known.For beguilers, sure :). Spell Focus (enchantment) and (illusion) cover like 99% of your spells. Spell Focus (evocation) would work equally well for a warmage, but, when I play a sorcerer, they tend to be more generalist in their spell selection, and as such pursue different strategies. I think this is one of those irreconsilable differences of perspective. No so much right or wrong as different ways of looking at things. For you choosing Spell Focus (x) --> guides your spell selection. So, no loss in choosing it. For me, my spell selection ---> determines whether or not Spell Focus (x) is worth bothering with. And it usually isn’t. Regarding metamagic rods, I tend to agree with Solberg that they are pretty expensive: the 2 lesser empower you mentioned add up to 18,000 gp. At level 12 or so, that’s still likely 20% of my total wealth. Doable, yes, but I have to consider the opportunity cost: every ounce of gold spent on that is an ounce not spent somewhere else. It is like the archmage itself: only at quite high levels are they really worth the cost, to me. If we were talking about the archmage in general, who will probably have a wealth of ~200,000 gp or more, I wouldn’t have any disagreements with your assessment, but for the op, playing a level 5 sorcerer, actual metamagic feats are going to be available and increasing his power long before metamagic rods will be a viable option.
solbergb 01-29-08, 03:54 PM	What feats are useful depends on the sorc's spells known What equipment is useful depends on the sorcs spells known Whether a PRC pays back "enough" and "Fast enough" for the opportunity cost depends on the sorcs spell's known. If it sounds like there is a pattern here, there is. About 80% of a sorcerer's power and 90% of his versatility come from spells known. Almost all of the rest come from metamagic or feats/class abilities/equipment that simulate having more spells known. Anything not in this category is useful but marginal, focused on giving the sorcerer combat actions. (you need enough AC and hitpoints and saves to not be taken out of fights before you can act. you need enough mobility and/or battlefield control to stay out of trouble once you can act (or even higher passive defenses if you are immobile). If your actions often involve saves, you will value stuff that raises save DC's to some extent, but usually not as much as, say, getting a spell that targets a different save or something normally immune to your usual tricks) Because feats can either expand spell options (metamagic) or simply grant more spell-like options (heritage feats, extra spell, arcane disciple) or make more efficient use of existing spells/metamagic (rapid metamagic and related feats/alternate class abilities, the feat that uses multiple lower level slots for higher level effects, extraordinary spell aim, the various magical tactical feats in complete mage and PHB2, spell focus+booster feat such as cloudy conjuration) losing the opportunity to take a feat that is in this category is a big deal. Most sorcs can stay alive just fine with nothing but a few spells known that are helpful (defense, mobility and/or battlefield control), a decent starting constitution and a minimal tactical awareness to stay away from full attacks or charge lanes as much as possible. So they don't need precious feats spent on such things. (or perhaps only in the lowest levels, retrained out later for better feats as higher tier spell slots open up etc).
The_Shaman 01-29-08, 04:43 PM	I third the Incantatrix PrC. And the PHBII Metamagic Specialist variant goes well with it. This happens to be the build I'm playing now in my group and I'm loving it.:D I like having a groupie too much, to be honest, and I like the option of having a familiar more than having shorter casting times a few times per day. Luckily since Rapid Metamagic came out in CMage, you can have your cake and eat it, too. Add in one very nice spell from Dragon Magic - the one that cuts casting times iirc - and a medium-level sorcerer might actually start flinging magic like the natural s/he are supposed to be. Warning: im/mature ideas may folowU.unloading a metric ton of raw thaumaturgy on someone is probably the magical version of multiple orgasm - you might know it's not a good idea, but you're damn sure you're going to do it and enjoy every milisecond. Ahem... Archmage is an oldie but goodie, no doubt about it, and arcane reach can be quite useful with certani spells. I was most impressed with its use with Shivering Touch, btw. If I may quote a certain public address: "There are certain things all true gamers should agree upon. First among those is that PCs are already brokenly overpowered and riding roughshod over most fantasy settings. Ranged shivering touch, however, takes the cake. Before this spell was, if not kept down to the ground, then at least in low orbit was the fact that it had to be delivered as a touch attack, and thus opened the pesky "arch"mage, or its familiar, within range of some much-deserved retribution. The archmage ability, figuratively speaking, is so out of this world that it might as well planeshift.s and kicks the Tome Archons in their respective scrota while it's at it." The above message is sponsored by the Great Wyrm Association of North Wallachia. All rights reserved
Malicea 01-29-08, 04:44 PM	I think this is one of those irreconsilable differences of perspective. No so much right or wrong as different ways of looking at things. For you choosing Spell Focus (x) --> guides your spell selection. So, no loss in choosing it. For me, my spell selection ---> determines whether or not Spell Focus (x) is worth bothering with. And it usually isn’t. Regarding metamagic rods, I tend to agree with Solberg that they are pretty expensive: the 2 lesser empower you mentioned add up to 18,000 gp. At level 12 or so, that’s still likely 20% of my total wealth. Doable, yes, but I have to consider the opportunity cost: every ounce of gold spent on that is an ounce not spent somewhere else. It is like the archmage itself: only at quite high levels are they really worth the cost, to me. If we were talking about the archmage in general, who will probably have a wealth of ~200,000 gp or more, I wouldn’t have any disagreements with your assessment, but for the op, playing a level 5 sorcerer, actual metamagic feats are going to be available and increasing his power long before metamagic rods will be a viable option. Like I said, there's no disagreement. It's just a different route. Spell choice is often a matter of personal style and to some extent, your party dynamic. About the metamagic rods however, I will have to remain adamant. The rods come into use BEFORE the feat, if you wanted to spend the cash on them that early. A single rod is quite easily affordable if you pick it up at level 8, 2 easily at level 10. Remember, at level 10 a sorc has just started to be able to empower level 3 spells. And I must stress again, the rod doesn't simply attempt to duplicate the feat. You are actually using level 3 slots to cast empowered level 3 spells. Your level 5 slots are untouched - use them for your save/die spells (normally not available before spell level 4). Hence for the price you are gaining the use of the feat as well as extra 'spell slot levels'. 2 rods give you 6 level 5 slots for the price of 6 level 3 slots. You won't even be able to cast that many level 5 spells per day normally until level 11 or so. Compare the price of a single Pearl of Power (level 5 is 25k) to a level 3 (9k) for some idea on how much this is worth. For even more abuse, pick up a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Maximize instead, and get the Empower Spell feat yourself. 14k a pop and you can be casting empowered maximized Fireballs 3/day at level 10. The Lesser rods are really underpriced for what they do IMO. Going back to Spell Focus. If you aren't going for Heritage feats, there's not much else better to spend your feats on at the low levels. Taking metamagic feats at those levels have 0 use, putting you behind on the power curve for up to 5 levels, whereas the Spell Focus feats can start working from level 1. Honestly, the cost of going Archmage is not at all 3 feats. It is 1 feat and the opportunity cost of qualifying for many other prestige classes. That's why Fatespinner is your best friend! ;)
Malicea 01-29-08, 05:11 PM	I like having a groupie too much, to be honest, and I like the option of having a familiar more than having shorter casting times a few times per day. Luckily since Rapid Metamagic came out in CMage, you can have your cake and eat it, too. Add in one very nice spell from Dragon Magic - the one that cuts casting times iirc - and a medium-level sorcerer might actually start flinging magic like the natural s/he are supposed to be. Rapid Metamagic actually hurts Arcane Spellsurge more than helping it. You WANT your spells to be full-round actions, so that AS can make them standard actions. No point having every spell cast as a swift action ;) If you can wait until level 14 (AS is level 7), it saves you a feat slot. Alternatively, combine with Celerity, Arcane Fusion and Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability for a real deluge of nukes! ;) Sadly, metamagic doesn't work well with Arcane Fusion or Imbue Familiar, but luckily, Spell Focus does.
solbergb 01-29-08, 06:28 PM	About the metamagic rods however, I will have to remain adamant. The rods come into use BEFORE the feat, So. This certainly is not true in my experience, but lets not be anecdotal here. Lets look at the raw numbers. +0 metamagic feats are usable and useful at level 3 (eg, energy substitution) where 3k is all of your cash. I don't think any can be taken before that, they tend to require kn arcane or spellcraft with 5 ranks, but I might have missed one or two. +1 metamagic feats are usable and useful at level 4 (eg, sculpt spell) where 3k is half of all your cash. +2 metamagic feats are usable and useful at level 6 (eg, empower spell on a single target L1 spell, to complement your area L3 spell) although they're usually a touch better at level 8 (eg, empower scorching ray, empower false life). At level 6, 9k is more than half your wealth and it's about a third of your wealth at level 8. +3 metamagic feats are usable and useful at level 10 (eg, maximize scorching ray, or chain levitate) 14000gp is roughly a third of your level 10 wealth. It's just about all of your wealth at level 6, more than half at level 8. +4 metamagic feats are usable and useful at level 12 (eg, quicken if you've improved your metamagic spead by then, twin spell). 35000 is about a third of your level 12 wealth. Getting even ONE lesser rod is a significant hit to your overall wealth compared to taking the feat at the time it starts to become useful. Furthermore the lower adjustment feats start working on higher level spells without needing to upgrade to a full metamagic rod and all work on more than 3 spells/day (minimum 4 spells). You can also have, say, two metamagic feats without coughing up another third of your cash. The comparison is even more extreme if the cost of metamagic on key spells is reduced by any of a number of PRC class abilities or newer feats. Some feats are even useful earlier, if they synergize with cantrips in some way. Not powerful, but not dead weight either. My sorceress had enlarge spell at level 1, which was quite useful for extending the reach of things like mage hand and open/close out of burst radius of traps. Both enlarge and sculpt (taken at level 3) came into significant play at level 4, as her L1 spells were designed to exploit both. You are perhaps thinking of wizards, who don't get much use out of normal metamagic because of the competition for spell slots with higher tier spells? For them rods are great, they let lower tier slots work as higher tier combat spells. Sorcerers don't have that problem. Metamagic just means more options, period and they don't generally have the problem with high level slots not being useful for a given challenge forcing reliance on lower tier slots with a more appropriate spell. If you go overboard on metamagic rods, the guy taking feats is going to match your spell focus DC's just by spending the extra money on his charisma cloak. (or if you match spending there, he's going to have a big edge in all other forms of equipment helpful to a sorcerer)
solbergb 01-29-08, 06:46 PM	And I must stress again, the rod doesn't simply attempt to duplicate the feat. You are actually using level 3 slots to cast empowered level 3 spells. Your level 5 slots are untouched - use them for your save/die spells (normally not available before spell level 4). Except that sorcerers tend not to run out of even high tier spell slots. They can generally cast metamagicked spells AND whatever their 1-2 top tier spells known are with their top tier slots without running themselves out. If you've got phantasmal killer, you cast it with L4 slot, unless you're heightening it (no rod for that feat). If you've got baleful polymorph, yeah, you must use your L5 slot for it. Or you might just stick with a heightened blindness spell for your fort save stopper. Not quite as good as polymorph but you can use a L2, L3, L4 or L5 slot depending on your slot situation vs your desire to crank the save DC. Sorcs that depend on save/suck type effects tend to take heighten before spell focus. It means low level spells known with good effects (eg, glitterdust) can be used as high level stoppers. Really, your arguments are those of a wizard player, all the way down to pearl of power. Yes indeed, my druid appreciates his rod of metamagic extend, it is like having three pearl of power 3s for his level 3 spells (impossibly expensive at his level). She uses pearls 1-2 for lower level slots. A sorc just casts the spell again, without bothering with either the extend feat or the rod or a momento magica (really those things are for bards, sorcs just don't run out of low level slots normally). Yes, I've seen warmages and sorcerers with rods of empower or maximize bought as early as possible, usually around level 8. They tend to no longer have those rods in a few levels and don't tend to buy the higher tier rods. The empower rod sometimes stays around for things like false life, or ring of blades on the warmage (I once saw maximized flame arrow via rod). It's a huge expense for them, and they tend to be underequipped for several levels in exchange for a few more D6 damage. It's a tradeoff. Mostly what I see before level 12 is the 3k rods. Energy sub, sculpt spell, silent spell mostly. Sometimes extend on a sorc who does a lot of buffing. Most of these are purchased in the level 7-10 range, when they seem fairly cheap, after the basics (+2 resistance item, as many +2 attribute items as they want, whatever key consumables (scrolls, wands etc) they prefer) are covered.
solbergb 01-29-08, 06:49 PM	For even more abuse, pick up a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Maximize instead, and get the Empower Spell feat yourself. 14k a pop and you can be casting empowered maximized Fireballs 3/day at level 10. The Lesser rods are really underpriced for what they do IMO. Ah, you subscribe to that fallacy. Read the metamagic feat rules again an empowered fireball is PREPARED AND CAST as a level 5 spell. That means you need a full rod of maximize to maximize it. It has the EFFECT of a level 3 spell after being cast, for purposes of things like globes of invulnerability. But for all casting considerations (concentration check, pearl of power to recall, metamagic rod to use) it's the higher level spell. If you're letting the 14k rod do what you are supposed to need a 54k rod to do, perhaps that is part of your inflated opinion of these items. I've seen the effect you describe. Rod of maximize on a level 8 warmage, who used his sudden empower feat to squeeze a few more d6 out once/day. I wasn't especially convinced he'd made the best purchase decisions (he spent all the rest of his cash on mithril fullplate. He had no resistance item, I'm not even sure he had a cloak cha+2, certainly no con item, no dex item, nothing that helped him with mobility etc) but he did get a few nice big booms every day. He was useful enough that my sorceress (who went feats+normal equipment route) was willing to extract him from trouble he got into. In a few levels his equipment normalized, but by then the lesser rod didn't really do much more than him just banging things out himself.
solbergb 01-29-08, 07:30 PM	For even more abuse, pick up a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Maximize instead, and get the Empower Spell feat yourself. 14k a pop and you can be casting empowered maximized Fireballs 3/day at level 10. The Lesser rods are really underpriced for what they do IMO. Ah, you subscribe to that fallacy. Read the metamagic feat rules again an empowered fireball is PREPARED AND CAST as a level 5 spell. That means you need a full rod of maximize to maximize it. It has the EFFECT of a level 3 spell after being cast, for purposes of things like globes of invulnerability. But for all casting considerations (concentration check, pearl of power to recall, metamagic rod to use) it's the higher level spell. If you're letting the 14k rod do what you are supposed to need a 54k rod to do, perhaps that is part of your inflated opinion of these items.
Malicea 01-29-08, 08:00 PM	Ah, you subscribe to that fallacy. Read the metamagic feat rules again an empowered fireball is PREPARED AND CAST as a level 5 spell. That means you need a full rod of maximize to maximize it. It has the EFFECT of a level 3 spell after being cast, for purposes of things like globes of invulnerability. But for all casting considerations (concentration check, pearl of power to recall, metamagic rod to use) it's the higher level spell. If you're letting the 14k rod do what you are supposed to need a 54k rod to do, perhaps that is part of your inflated opinion of these items. The wording is not at all clear on reading at all. If there is some clarification on this I suppose I have not seen it. It wouldn't be unfair certainly. Regardless, this does not detract from the value of the rods. You continue to ignore the fact that the rods allow you to cast with lower level slots, as if higher level slots were not worth more. This is hardly a 'wizard' argument. Higher level slots used to cast actual higher level spells at the very least have a higher DC, if not far superior effects. Using Heighten is, well another feat slot obviously. Your entire argument here seems to centre around the idea that the only slots worth using, and needed at any level, are the highest ones. I certainly have not had that experience. As for your anecdotal evidence, I've personally seen the hell abused out of these rods myself - empower Rods at level 7, maximize at level 8. A single cast was often enough to effectively end any encounter. Defensively the sorcerer wasn't stellar, but we did have extremely good party stealth and recon, so most of the time we had the surprise advantage. Yes, the cost of an empower rod is a large part of the difference between a +2 and +4 cloak of charisma, but if Spell Focus only equalizes the DC difference, you're still left with those 3 level 5 slots over 3 level 3 slots. I disagree still with your assessment of cost. A Lesser Rod of Empower is barely more than the cost of a +2 weapon, and it's certainly common to see those by level 7 or 8. You going to tell me that a melee type with a +2 weapon at those levels is going to be 'underequipped for several levels' elsewhere? Seriously, metamagic feats useful on level 1 spells? What are you going to Sculpt or Empower? Level 2 spells at the least, and even then, Scorching Ray advances unevenly. Level 3 is the first time you generally see spells for 1d6/level that scale well with metamagic. +3 level metamagic feats useful at level 10? That 14k Rod is now fairly cheap and you'll have those 3 level 5 slots left to cast Arcane Fusion or whatever else you picked. Rods going out of style in a few levels? Last I checked you still needed to be level 12 to maximize Fireballs. Oh, the guy with the rod has been doing it for 2-4 levels already. Even at level 14, a Lesser Rod of Maximize is going to keep your level 3 spell slots relevant. BTW, mithral fullplate is the glaring error on your warmage's part. 16.5k for 8ac? Did he at least get a +1 enhancement on it? Regular Mage Armor, a 2k Mithral Buckler +1 and a Ring and Amulet +1 does better, for less than a third of the price. It gets even worse if you have access to Greater Mage Armor. Don't blame the rod for his wealth woes.
JamesMaissen 01-30-08, 04:58 AM	Seriously, metamagic feats useful on level 1 spells? What are you going to Sculpt or Empower? You sculpt grease, you empower ray of enfeeblement. Both are great returns for the investment and easily do the work of a 2nd and 3rd level spell respectively. If you can trick it out cheaper then so be it. Rods do tend to give more to wizards than to sorcerers. Depending on the wealth of the campaign you can overvalue them. Likewise if you allow rods to effect spells before applying other metamagic feats. Speaking of which can a wizard then pearl back a quickened true strike with a pearl 1? It does boil down to a resource issue. Sure it's better to have than to have nothing. But if you are on a budget then the levels you are talking about is when there are more things out there than you can afford as it is. You are going to trade off here whatever you choose. To Brad: my warmage actually liked the lesser rod of extend that he found. Ice storm and flame arrow have been the main uses there. -James
LSMFT 01-30-08, 10:50 AM	I disagree still with your assessment of cost. A Lesser Rod of Empower is barely more than the cost of a +2 weapon, and it's certainly common to see those by level 7 or 8. You going to tell me that a melee type with a +2 weapon at those levels is going to be 'underequipped for several levels' elsewhere?Other people have commented on this already. By my calculation, a 9,000 gp rod is at level 8 is a full one-third of your recommended wealth. I would call that theoretically affordable, not easily affordable. Games vary, but only a minority of the DMs I know would allow me to have an item that expensive if we were starting at level 8. (And even then, I would be very hesitant to invest that much in that sort of item.) If we started out at a lower level, it would take a lot longer to accumulate enough cash to afford one. But others have said this, and mileage may vary depending on the levels of wealth in the campaign. That said, I see a serious problem with your analogy to a +2 weapon. Those who rely on weapons are, well, reliant on them to be effective. In my experience, 99% of the martial characters I see created have their primary weapon as their single largest investment of resources. A fighter is only as good as his sword. (OK, that's hyperbole, but, you see my point.) There is a strong motive for them to try to spend as much as 1/3 of their wealth on an item they will use once or twice a round every round and can't function with out. I can function just fine thanks without a metamagic rod. Not that I'd say no if one fell in my lap, but when it comes time to spend money, the fighter needs above all else as good a weapon as he can find, while far more than a comparably priced metamagic rod I need wands, scrolls, stat-boosters, AC boosting, handy haversack 'cause I dumped Str, etc. It just isn't happening. So, just an opinion, but when it comes to rods replacing real metamagic at mid/low levels, it just seems economically impractical in the type of campaign I know and play in. And that these rods are nearly the same price as a +2 sword doesn't change that fact. Seriously, metamagic feats useful on level 1 spells? What are you going to Sculpt or Empower?You sculpt grease, you empower ray of enfeeblement. Both are great returns for the investment and easily do the work of a 2nd and 3rd level spell respectively. If you can trick it out cheaper then so be it.Empowering RoE was the same example I'd have offered. An average strength penalty of almost 10 - Simply fantastic. I'm not a Magic Missile guy myself, but level 6 is sort of a sweet spot for casting empowered versions of that as well. The point is, that while a lot of the disagreements here (the value of Spell Focus for example) are differences in opinion and have more to do with play style than anything else, the question of when metamagic feats can and do start providing benefits for sorcerers is not really a matter of opinion. By level 3, almost every sorcerer I play has (and routinely uses) at least one metamagic feat. I have often taken feats like Fell Weaken at level 1. By level 6, almost always, I have at least two: Empower, Fell Drain, Energy Substitution, or Heighten. I won't say that there are not other ways to go that are very effective, but it is just a fact that using metamagic from level one on can be too.
Malicea 01-30-08, 01:44 PM	The point is, that while a lot of the disagreements here (the value of Spell Focus for example) are differences in opinion and have more to do with play style than anything else, the question of when metamagic feats can and do start providing benefits for sorcerers is not really a matter of opinion. Sure, Sculpted Grease or Empowered RoE might be useful once in a while. The latter against the BBEG of a particular encounter perhaps. But I think you overestimate the value of that particular use of the spell. I have seen sorcerers use rays at low levels, and the chance of hitting is not at all high at those levels, just because their BAB isn't enough to reliably hit touch ACs yet, especially when cover and melee penalties are applied. So yes, it really is a matter of opinion. At level 6, with a dex of 14, a medium sized sorc has +5 to hit with a ray. If there's even either cover or a melee penalty, his chance to hit with that ray drops to 60% against touch AC 10. It's hardly useless, however it is not at all clear that it's superior to just nuking the guy in the face with a Fireball, possibly with Spell Focus involved - and who's to say just a regular RoE wouldn't have done the job as effectively? That said, my point was never to say that metamagic feats are completely useless for sorcs. It was merely to refute to comment that the Archmage PrC gimps you during the levels you are trying to qualify for it. I illustrated that by showing how 1. Spell Focus feats aren't that bad, and 2. Metamagic Feats aren't that much better as they were made out to be; for all the various reasons already stated. I did however, acknowledge that you are somewhat gimped for the 3 'Skill Focus: Spellcraft' levels. Hence, stating that almost all sorcs play with at least one metamagic feat doesn't have that much bearing on that point. Plenty of sorcs I know play with at least one Spell Focus as well. If you don't like metamagic rods that's fine; it's your personal choice. I'd be pretty happy with one at level 8, casting effectively level 5 spells 3/day, leaving my level 4 slots untouched, with 18k or so left to spend on other items. Which brings me to my last point, that I didn't really get into in detail before. You can get quite far just spreading out your low level wealth into several cheap items, rather than a couple of expensive ones. A single 9k item isn't going to break you at level 8. 9k doesn't go a huge way towards scaling up items once you have all the basics. It's an average of 1-2ac, or +1-2 to saves. Most of the decent items around that level are 2-5k, and with 18k left to spend you can easily pick up a good spread. 4k Cloak of Charisma +2, 4k Vest of Resistance +2, 5k Mithral Buckler +2, 2k RoP +1, 2k AmNat +1. Throw in Mage Armor or even better, Greater Mage Armor and I think that's pretty damn respectable. That 9k extra applied onto there would probably get you a +3 Vest and +3 Mithral Buckler instead, for 1 more ac and 1 more to saves. Hence: EASILY affordable. EDIT: I would probably dump some AC (downgrade Mithral Buckler from +2 to +1) and pick up a Metamagic Rod of Extend instead for 3k. That's by far the worst offender, since most of the long duration (1hr/level) buffs are level 1-3, and it takes those nicely to full-day duration at those levels. It even remains useful later on, making 10min/level buffs last for hours.
LSMFT 01-30-08, 04:48 PM	Sure, Sculpted Grease or Empowered RoE might be useful once in a while. The latter against the BBEG of a particular encounter perhaps. But I think you overestimate the value of that particular use of the spell.Empowered RoE is worth it at almost all levels. At level 6, it can make physically weak enemies immobile, and thus dead. Even against a Great Wyrm, a -6 (average) penalty to all his attacks will probably save my fighter’s life. When you have archer rogues in your party, Sculpted Grease also never loses its appeal. My philosophy on picking metamagic is to pick something that keeps on giving. Much like the manner you described with Spell Focus, when I pick a feat like Empower, the rest of my later spell selection is influenced by it. So, it pays off now, and will continue to do so. I have seen sorcerers use rays at low levels, and the chance of hitting is not at all high at those levels, just because their BAB isn't enough to reliably hit touch ACs yet, especially when cover and melee penalties are applied. So yes, it really is a matter of opinion.Then I cast it again. I’m a sorcerer. :) You might not find it suits you. You might have seen things go far better using different tactics. But how can you tell me I haven’t used the very tactics I’m describing? Why would you doubt me when I say they have worked and worked quite well? You said that metamagic wasn’t really practical prior to level 8 or more. I’m only saying that, in my experience, I’ve seen them not just work, but work pretty damn well. I’m not lying to you just to make a point. I swear. It's hardly useless, however it is not at all clear that it's superior to just nuking the guy in the face with a Fireball, possibly with Spell Focus involved –Well, that is not really comparable. The fact is, you just don’t use rays and area attacks/direct damage and debuffs in the same situations and against the same opponents. and who's to say just a regular RoE wouldn't have done the job as effectively? Skinny wizard: regular RoE. Big half orc with a battle axe: Empowered. I’m to say that is worked better because I rolled the die and saw the results. :) That said, my point was never to say that metamagic feats are completely useless for sorcs. It was merely to refute to comment that the Archmage PrC gimps you during the levels you are trying to qualify for it.When I use metamagic I will be: 1) More flexible: I can get my spells to function differently as I need or want then too. 2) More versatile: I will be using feat to increase the damage of my low-level spells to higher-level results. And in return, be able to select higher-level defensive or utility spells. Spell Focus is going to make some of my spells more likely to beat the saving throw. I know whi I did however, acknowledge that you are somewhat gimped for the 3 'Skill Focus: Spellcraft' levels.Levels 12, 13, 14. That’s roughly 40 encounters during which I, having taken Quicken spell at 12, will be applying it to second and third-level spells. Seriously, I will rock you. Granted, levels 15, 16, 17+, you’re going to come back very very strong with those archmage abilities, but that’s the very definition of a trade off. Weaker now to be stronger later. Being aware that there is, in fact, a trade off, that in going this route you are going to be accepting for a time that you will be a bit weaker, is the point of my argument. (And let’s not forget, I promise that I haven’t, that a slightly “weaker” sorcerer is still a full freaking arcane caster. Weaker doesn’t mean he isn’t still well above the power curve.) I'd be pretty happy with one at level 8, casting effectively level 5 spells 3/day, leaving my level 4 slots untouched, with 18k or so left to spend on other items. I guess out priorities that guide how we allocate our funds are very, very different as well. Which brings me to my last point, that I didn't really get into in detail before. You can get quite far just spreading out your low level wealth into several cheap items, rather than a couple of expensive ones. A single 9k item isn't going to break you at level 8. 9k doesn't go a huge way towards scaling up items once you have all the basics. It's an average of 1-2ac, or +1-2 to saves. Most of the decent items around that level are 2-5k, and with 18k left to spend you can easily pick up a good spread.But with 27K, I’ve a far bigger spread. 4k Cloak of Charisma +2, 4k Vest of Resistance +2, 5k Mithral Buckler +2, 2k RoP +1, 2k AmNat +1. Throw in Mage Armor or even better, Greater Mage Armor and I think that's pretty damn respectable. That 9k extra applied onto there would probably get you a +3 Vest and +3 Mithral Buckler instead, for 1 more ac and 1 more to saves. Hence: EASILY affordable.=sum: 17,000. Sure, ah, but no wands or scrolls? Or, less than a grand in them? Seriously? No bags of holding? No potions of healing and Lesser Restoration? No circlet of persuasion or feather token: trees? No Gloves of Dex +2? No eyes of the eagle or broach of shielding? Not to be redundant, but where are all your wands and scrolls!?! I’m not going to deny the obvious value of a rod of empower. But it is, for me, too big a chunk of change at that level. I'm going to spread that 9,000 a bit further, and as a result, I think I'm going to be far better off than had I been able to Empower my 4th-level spells three times. EDIT: I would probably dump some AC (downgrade Mithral Buckler from +2 to +1) and pick up a Metamagic Rod of Extend instead for 3k. That's by far the worst offender, since most of the long duration (1hr/level) buffs are level 1-3, and it takes those nicely to full-day duration at those levels. It even remains useful later on, making 10min/level buffs last for hours.Much closer to my price range at that level. But, well, between spending 3k on that or just casting the buff a second time if I need to (and then spending that same gold on some scrolls I want for those spells that aren't worth knowing, but still worth having,) well, hey, I’m a sorcerer: Casting it a second time when necessary is my thing.
Malicea 01-30-08, 06:05 PM	Firstly with the whole 'I'm a sorc I'll just cast it again' business. It is hardly optimal to have to deal with that. There's a reason why a lot of people swear by Improved Initiative just for the chance to act first. Losing an entire round by having to cast it again is terrible. You must also remember that you are measuring the gain from a metamagic feat when you use it, not the effect in total. A non-empowered RoE might have enough of an effect as an empowered one on many targets. An unsculpted Grease might still be able to catch the targets you want, assuming your party works around the tactic. Similarly, Spell Focus is evaluated is 'merely' a 1 point DC improvement than without. Sure you've seen it work well many many times. Have you also seen it work terribly without, many many times? It has nothing to do with whether I think you are lying to me (I don't.) A fireball may not be comparable to empowered RoE directly, but you have to keep in mind the alternatives to have an idea of the real gain in having the feat. OK, down to the Skill Focus: Spellcraft issue. It is an issue for sure, since it's effectively almost giving up a feat completely. Quicken however, is far from the be-all-and-end-all uberfeat at level 12. You still only have 1 swift action a round. Again, make a spell pick that can take advantage of that. Gap closes. Certainly to less than 'I will rock you'. You won't. Quicken actually lost a lot of its desireability when they starting publishing a whole bunch of swift spells, especially for sorcs who usually have to take Rapid Metamagic also. If you pick up Arcane Spellsurge at 14, Quicken becomes worthless. SF:SC is harsh, but survivable. It's the main decision you have to make when deciding on Archmage IMO: whether you want to pay the level 12-14 price. If it's necessary to pick up consumable magic items, being possibly the only arcanist in the party, I'd actually choose to dump AC completely, and pick Greater Mirror Image. That spell is ridiculously good. Since I hit level 8 with my Beguiler, I've felt all the money spent on increasing AC is really a waste. Yes it's a spell known, but the amount of wealth saved from using it is tremendous. At the worst it makes your AC equal to your attacker's attack roll +11 every time. Wings of Cover is another good one. Arcane Fusion is an excellent pick also, to cast 2 buffs in the first/surprise round, one of which can be Shield. Blur or regular Mirror Image might be the other, if you want to save higher level spells known. That IS a lot of spells known however and they tend to get scarce. The competition for a Metamagic Rod of Empower at those levels is really the Runestaff of Fire. A custom Runestaff is even better, if that's available to you. Basically takes the place of wands and scrolls, and plays to the sorcerer's advantage: many spell slots. Typically though, I've found the only consumable items in real demand every session are wands of CLW, or Lesser Vigor. However, that's probably because the Beguiler (me) in the group gets so many (utility) spells known, on top of stupid skill points. :) Again, really there is no disagreement. We have different approaches, but it's hard or impossible to say one is superior to another - just because so many of the strategies aren't really comparable, or the circumstances are different. Keep in mind I'm making recommendations only for the 'Archmage route' and not saying that you should not go metamagic if you aren't planning on that PrC. If anything, the feat I really would normally try to go for is Draconic Arcane Grace. With more and more nice spells giving a bonus to dragonblood sorcerers (swift cast Arcane Spellsurge!), even the pre-req Draconic Heritage doesn't look too bad. Green Dragon Lineage and Fatespinner with X will save or suck/die spell on top. Casting it again is hardly the best thing you can do with the plethora of sorcerer spell slots :)
teshen 01-30-08, 07:48 PM	I highly second Shaman's comment, especially since Sorcerers gain nothing outside of full caster progression after level 1. Incantatrix gives you 4 metamagic feats in 10 levels and some other nice class features. . . I third the Incantatrix PrC. . . This is probably me being testy today, but read the entire thread before you post. . . . And in that vein, I second The_Shaman's suggestions about the incantrix and the sand shaper. . . And to go with the extra spells prc theme I enjoy, rainbow savant could work for you, especially since text trump tables, and the text grants full spellcasting. Granted, it's an old idea...
solbergb 01-30-08, 08:56 PM	Firstly with the whole 'I'm a sorc I'll just cast it again' business. It is hardly optimal to have to deal with that. There's a reason why a lot of people swear by Improved Initiative just for the chance to act first. Losing an entire round by having to cast it again is terrible. When you are talking about rods of extend, you are talking about out of combat spellcasting (buffs, primarily). Casting again is just fine, as is the wizard doing the pearl of power thing to cast it two rounds later. One reason a sorc can get away with some unreliable spells (all single target save/dies are in this category, at all levels, all low level ray spells are in this category) is that casting it doesn't preclude them casting it again. It sucks that they wasted their round, but hey, the fighter rolls "1"s too sometimes. Some metamagic though, makes spells more reliable. Take sculpted glitterdust. It's a lot easier to target the invisible or hiding enemies with a 20' spread than a 10' spread. Or sculpted grease. The odds they'll make both the reflex save and likely multiple balance checkes to escape are a lot less than the 10x10 version, where if they pass the reflex save they can just walk out of the grease, no balance check needed. In both cases you're also far more likely to affect multiple enemies, improving the odds that SOMEBODY will simply fail a key save and be disabled, and the round not wasted. In the case of something like empower, even at level 6 the guy with it has the luxury to do a weaker effect (magic missile, ray of enfeeble) if he's worried about conserving his four top tier slots, or a more powerful effect (empowered magic missile vs the shadow, empowered ray of enfeeble vs the big, low touch AC monster) if the situation demands it. In neither case is their one L3 spell the right thing to do with that L3 slot, and the need more oomph than a L1 slot provides. (to pick two common L3 picks for sorcs, fireball doesn't do enough vs the big strong monster, and has a 50% failure chance vs the shadow, and haste was likely cast already, so casting it again won't help) Or the sorc might have done something like what mine did at level 12, when I picked Analyze Dwoemer as my only level 6 spell. Mostly I used L6 spells for enlarged wall of force, chain greater magic weapon and for my oversubscribed 5th level slots (chain levitate, sculpted evards, enlarged evards, telekenesis, wall of force). But sometimes it was very nice to be able to follow up arcane sight-detected spell hazards with analyze dwoemer and to incidently identify all the loot we'd picked up on the way...(amazing how some bad experiences extremely lethal magical traps can warp your spell selection. My favorite was a L9 spell that turned the party into various berserk lycanthropes. Sheesh)
solbergb 01-30-08, 09:10 PM	On a more general note. You measure the utility of the feat both by the use of it AND by the impact it has. A fighter uses weapon focus every time he swings with his weapon, but it only makes a difference if he would have missed without it, and the difference it makes also depends on how much damage he does when a hit missed (does it change the outcome of a fight?) A fighter may use a feat like close quarters combat only once every couple levels, but the differenct it makes is that he not only avoids being grappled and needing rescue, but he also injures the enemy AND generally gets to follow up with an unimpeded full attack - when the feat comes up it turns a dangerous encounter into a cakewalk. In many ways the spell focus feats are kind of like weapon focus feats. They'll come up any time you cast a saving throw spell in that school, and you are presumably picking bread-and-butter spells that have saves. But the feat only MATTERS if the enemy fails his save by one point. It's tough to gauge how useful it is over time unless your GM tends to comment on those things or you are very good at estimating enemy saves. The metamagic feats are more dramatic than that. It's really easy to tell how many more enemies you affected with sculpt spell (when I use it, it's often against very dispersed enemies using the "4 cubes" method. I get from 2x to 4x the enemies with it that I would get without it...like casting the spell 2-4 times). It's easy to measure the impact of draining 10 points of strength instead of 6, or doing 72 damage with a maximized scorching ray instead of 42. Sometimes it won't matter, but with damage, you can count it as "mattering" when you drop the foe if he probably would not have dropped without the feat. With something like sculpt, you measure by whether more foes were affected, and also sometimes by whether you avoided impeding your party. My experience with sculpt is it was not only used in nearly every fight my sorcerer had that went more than 1 round, her spells had bigger impact precisely because she had sculpt (if they would not have, she would have just used the lower level slot/spell) Enlarge, I can actually name just about every combat situation it helped my sorceress, plus several key noncombat situations. It mattered in 3-4 combats per level in the baby levels, when short range is REALLY short. in the mid levels, 6-12ish, that tapered down to 1-2 times (although I used it a lot in those levels out of combat, to extend my "leash" for unseen servants and tenser's disks). I retrained it away at level 14, where my short range was 60', and I had other spells capped at 60' (gust of wind, whirling blade) that it didnt' affect. Chain spell's another one. My sorc uses it every single day for greater magic weapon, sometimes more than once (she's into telekenesis). But she's also done things like chain open/close, chain mage hand, chain grease (as grapple defense for the party) and chain levitate before she hit level 12. (I had to take it early to make room later for feats with high rank requirements. I found uses for it, maybe 1/level until 10, then a bit more till 12). As with the other poster, I used every metamagic I had except sculpt as soon as I got it. (sculpt I had to wait a level). What they translated into was more "top tier" spell options. They felt like more spells known. The character had access to buy most of the lesser metamagic rods at one time or another in her career. She's never even been slightly tempted. She always had better things to spend her cash on, and the idea of a x/day limit and the concept of juggling the rods with hands is also awkward, especially given the full round time for metamagic. You need to have it already in hand to really make use of it properly. If you need the hand for something else, and can't spare a move that provokes to put it away, you are also dropping a good amount of your cash unattended on the ground.
solbergb 01-30-08, 09:18 PM	The dynamics of a beguiler are so different from a sorcerer it's generally a bad idea to draw conclusions from the play of one to another. Like warmages, beguilers get all their spells the second they get a high tier. Unlike warmages, the beguilers get a wide variety of spells at each tier. They don't have the pressure to bring lower level spells into play as viable high level spells via metamagic the way sorcerers do. Frankly I don't see metamagic rods as very attractive for a beguiler either, but I guess it depends on how you use the spell list. Most beguiler offense is tied to saving throws, so spell focus feats might have more impact. A sorcerer by contrast is likely to have a mix of direct damage and battlefield control that doesn't use saves or saves are a "bonus" to the main effect, and only use debuffs when he knows there is a weakness. Oddly warmages have similar metamagic needs to sorcerers but for different reasons. A lot of metamagics are really aimed at expanding on direct damage, changing type or making typeless (transdim, energy sub, nonlethal sub), increasing damage (empower, maximize, twin, and to an extent quicken), modifying the spell effect parameters (enlarge, sculpt) or casting in hostile situations (silent spell, or rapid metamagic+still). Precisely because so much of the warmage list is the same, metamagic that works well on any of it tends to work well on most of it.
solbergb 01-30-08, 09:24 PM	If it's necessary to pick up consumable magic items, being possibly the only arcanist in the party, I'd actually choose to dump AC completely, and pick Greater Mirror Image. Or you could dump AC completely AND not buy any metamagic rods and spend the cash on other things. Which is what my sorceress did until level 12. Then she bought some cheap AC items to complement working in greater mage armor for thematic reasons (she now has enough AC so that giants throwing rocks might not hit her if she's got cover...she still gets hit by most level appropriate stuff) The only spells she cast for defense in combat were battlefield control (or swift spells that helped her move out of trouble). That, her own two feet in lower levels and using mounts and later phantom steeds wherever they'd work kept her out of trouble pretty well. She never died and it was very rare that she was incapacitated. A lot of her cash went into attribute and save boosters, some into expanding her emergency spell selection via consumables (ie, the rare situation where her main spells+metamagic don't work), some into utility items like hat of disguise or heward haversack. AC stuff is very expensive for arcanists in the 1-10 game. Defense is better done via spells, cast either before combat or as part of attacking the enemy (ie debuffs, battlefield control) or as part of buffing the whole party (something like haste)
mandos13 01-31-08, 04:51 AM	teshen, what book is rainbow savant in? sounds interesting. but i'll be using metamagic rods at least somewhat, but i wont be able to afford to rely on them too much. plus i too dont like the idea of juggling them around, so i'll prolly buy one useful one and keep it at that and to throw my 10 cents in, i also tend to disagree with the "well just cast it again, you're a sorcerer" mindset. i hate it when you end up wasting an entire round and a spell slot to boot.
The_Shaman 01-31-08, 06:09 AM	It's in CDivine. However, iirc it only adds the spells to your class list, not your known list... Therefore, it can be much nicer for a warmage or beguiler.
LSMFT 01-31-08, 11:53 AM	Firstly with the whole 'I'm a sorc I'll just cast it again' business. It is hardly optimal to have to deal with that. There's a reason why a lot of people swear by Improved Initiative just for the chance to act first. Losing an entire round by having to cast it again is terrible.Philosophical differences again. “I just cast again” is the whole point of the sorcerer. When a wizard prepared something like Charm Person, he probably only has one prepared. If he needs to cast it once, and it works, great. If he needed it twice, probably screwed. If it didn’t work when he needed it, probably screwed. The sorcerer needs it twice, he casts it again. If is didn’t work when he wanted it too, he casts is again. That’s the sorcerer. Casting it again is what he does. (This is part of the reason that I find feats like Spell Focus more likely to be taken by wizards than by sorcerers.) A non-empowered RoE might have enough of an effect as an empowered one on many targets.And a Fireball might only singe a guy’s eyebrows. Bad rolls happen. The fact is that whatever I roll, the empowered version is going to do more. So I have the option when I want it to do as much as possible. An unsculpted Grease might still be able to catch the targets you want, assuming your party works around the tactic.And sculpted versions give me more possible tactics for us to use. I don’t know why you are so committed to the idea that these are not useful? If you feel sculpting versions of spells is useful at all, then surely it can be useful on some low level spells. If you find that empowering spells is ever useful, it can be useful on some low level spells. If you see no point in either of those feats, then that demonstrates that you don’t like those feats. There are still plenty of others that you could find useful at low levels: Heighten, Fell Drain, Fell Weaken, Entangling. If you like none of them, that still doesn’t mean that there aren’t a whole bunch of people, like me, putting them to pretty good use. It is an issue for sure, since it's effectively almost giving up a feat completely. Quicken however, is far from the be-all-and-end-all uberfeat at level 12. You still only have 1 swift action a round. I have more swift action spell options than the guy who took Spellcraft Focus. And for those three levels he has…nothing worth mentioning. No, Quicken is not the “be all” feat, but even if you thought it was the second-worst option in the entire list of possible options, it is still ranked above the one you took. Again, make a spell pick that can take advantage of that.We pick the same or similar spells, and I have Quicken and you pick Skill Focus, I have more options than you for that time. More options, better selection of choices, and with more choices to pick from I am more likely to end up with better results. You take a crap feat and I take any better feat, doesn’t have to be Quicken, could be Dodge for heaven’s sake, and for a time, until your subpar choice starts to pay off with archmage abilities, I have a better thing going. If it's necessary to pick up consumable magic items, It always is. Again, I’m not asking too much as far as an admission from you here. This is just another trade off: You want to take less useful feats, you are a bit weaker. You make up for that weakness with rather expensive item, you and gain its advantages, but I would have more wealth to spend on other things. Whether you have subpar feats, or have less relative wealth because you devoted a third of it to items to mitigate the fact that you have subpar feats, either way, you made a trade off by being a bit less powerful than you could be now in an effort to be more powerful later when you enter the PrC. And really, isn’t is supposed to be that way? I mean, I personally consider a PrC that has no real costs for entry and yet radically increases your power at no cost once you do enter to be a bad PrC. If the PrC is only gains and has no real legitimate costs, then isn’t that a problem PrC? and to throw my 10 cents in, i also tend to disagree with the "well just cast it again, you're a sorcerer" mindset. i hate it when you end up wasting an entire round and a spell slot to boot.Nobody likes it when their spell doesn’t work. Missing with a ranged-touch attack or having someone make a save, it sucks. But the simple fact is: it happens. It has to happen. (If every save-or-die you had worked every time you cast it, the challenge of the game would evaporate pretty quickly.) So what it comes down to is how do you deal with it when it does? The wizard has to prep each slot. For every slot, there is one spell you can use one time. When it doesn’t work, you are out of chances. Go to another slot. (Maybe you prepared the same spell twice?) The sorcerer still has slots, but he can use those slots to cast any spell he knows of the same level or lower. When a wizard’s Charm Person fails, that slot was wasted and that he knows that spell is completely irrelevant. It behooves the wizard to do everything in his power to make sure that it works the first time. His only other option is to fill multiple slots with the same spell. (And every slot filled with Charm Person can’t be filled with something else.) With the sorcerer, don’t get me wrong: he wants his Charm Person to work too. If it fails, he wasted a slot just like the wizard did. He wasted an action just like the wizard did. But while he has the option of pursuing the same strategy that the wizard does (do everything possible to make it count, like take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus) he also has the flexibility to try again, to cast it a second time that the wizard lacks. This gives the sorcerer a measure of advantage. This gives the sorcerer a choice. He can choose to follow a similar strategy to the wizard and devote his resources to that end. OR he can choose to rely on his ability to try again, and devote those same resources to something else. I know which way I think was better and if others don’t agree that’s really fine. I don’t care. But what I do care about is that, since I’m in the self-appointed role of dispensing advice, you are a least aware of what you are giving up whichever route you take.
Malicea 01-31-08, 12:12 PM	Enlarge, I can actually name just about every combat situation it helped my sorceress, plus several key noncombat situations. It mattered in 3-4 combats per level in the baby levels, when short range is REALLY short. in the mid levels, 6-12ish, that tapered down to 1-2 times (although I used it a lot in those levels out of combat, to extend my "leash" for unseen servants and tenser's disks). I retrained it away at level 14, where my short range was 60', and I had other spells capped at 60' (gust of wind, whirling blade) that it didnt' affect. Again, you aren't considering the alternatives but merely illustrating how metamagic feats synergize with the correct spell picks. It's hard to compare given different spell choices, but you seem fixed on the idea of putting a mathematical advantage for metamagic feats over spell focus ones. Illustrating the improvement of Sculpt on Grease for example, does not take into account the fact that Grease might not be a very useful spell to cast without Sculpt in the first place. Mathematically a Spell Focus feat improves the chance of a save-negates spell working by between 5.26%-100%. Even in the worst-case scenario, where it changes it from 'saves on 19' to 'saves on 20', I still consider it worth the feat investment to avoid the chance of having to 'cast it again'. You generalize the typical spell picks of a sorcerer as if there weren't any other routes to go, or that such routes would necessarily be sub-optimal. A sorcerer who's invested in Spell Focus: Evocation, might only know 2-3 saved-based evocation spells (or even 1!) and a bunch of other utility spells, but in combat might still end up using the Spell Focus feat every round. Similarly, a metamagic-optimized sorc would cast metamagiced AE or numerical effect based spells every round. With a different party dynamic as well, what works varies significantly. That's all I'm really going to say anymore on this particular matter. I think I've stated my position pretty clearly. Re-training is a completely different thing. With re-training, the Archmage PrC doesn't have any (feat) drawback! If only we were all so lucky ;)
Malicea 01-31-08, 12:40 PM	Philosophical differences again. “I just cast again” is the whole point of the sorcerer. I think that is a really outdated way of thinking about the sorcerer. Spontaneous casting and more spell slots does NOT make the entire point of the sorcerer just to be able to re-cast failed spells. 'I just cast again' is preferably thought of as a tactic to be used if your spell worked, but there are reasons to need it again. I NEVER have such a failure-oriented idea for my spellcasting in the first place. There are several ways to use the increased number of spell slots that sorcerers have now, particularly to reduce or virtually eliminate the chance of failure. If you actually read my post, you'd understand that I'm hardly saying that metamagic feats are useless. It was to remind that casting a spell without one is not always completely useless. There was an idea put forward that seemed to say: if you don't have Sculpted Grease, or Empowered RoE, the base spell is worthless, and hence the feat is worth the full effect of such a spell. The feat is worth the difference in effect between metamagiced and non-metamagiced effects of the spell. Tell me exactly where I said that the feats are 'pointless'. Pointing out that they are not ALWAYS useful is FAR from saying that. Show me where I said that NO ONE should use them. My point has consistently thus far, been that there are viable routes that do not utilize metamagic, and NOT that those routes are even superior. Seriously, I'm starting to doubt you're even putting in the effort to read my posts before commenting. Did I at some point say Skill Focus: Spellcraft wasn't a sub-optimal pick? That it wouldn't put you somewhat behind? I illustrated quite clearly that it WAS suboptimal, that you DO pay that price for Archmage, but merely that it wasn't as crippling a disadvantage as you made it out to be ("I will rock you"). If you did read my post it would save you time typing out entire sections trying to refute something I never said in the first place. As for claiming that it ALWAYS is necessary to get consumables, I put it to you that you don't have any convincing way of backing that up. My anecdotal evidence is as good as yours. Metamagic Rods do far more than 'mitigate' the fact that you didn't take metamagic feats. Again, you seem to have completely ignored for the nth time the fact that the rods DON'T USE HIGHER LEVEL SLOTS. They are NOT simply replacement items that allow you to use feats that you don't have. They however, stack more poorly if you already have those metamagic feats, than if you had a Spell Focus feat - since you only gain the ability to metamagic higher level spells, but not the actual access to the feat itself. If I stack spell DCs for some reason (however it is done) on a sorcerer. I'm not thinking 'oh, it really has to work because I can't do it again'. I do it because I want it to work RIGHT NOW, and that if it fails, my retry ALSO has a better chance of working. To a certain extent, a wizard might think about how it's important to stack DCs because he might not have a backup prepared, but I'm pretty sure the RIGHT NOW factor is there as well.
solbergb 01-31-08, 12:57 PM	Yeah, reatraining takes away a lot of the pain of qualifying for the PRC. It reduces (for a sorcerer...wizard bonus feats help with this some) a 3-6 level "suck time" to a 1-2 level "suck time" before the PRC starts paying back. On the other hand, I speak from experience when I say it's painful to give up feats that are actually useful to you. Enlarge spell, marginal as it had become by level 14 is still something I miss from time to time in spite of the fact I like what I swapped it for better. This is doubly true of any feat that became a signature for your character over time. Grease is pretty useful without metamagic. My wife's draconic sorcerer took it. It's still a decent single target debuff, with a useful effect on passed save (flatfooted, if you believe the FAQ) or on failed save (prone), plus it is a grapple defense, can drop creatures with climb speeds or spider climb off the ceiling and occasionally is helpful out of combat to do escape artist stuff in tight spaces. It's just that all those good effects can now be applied to multiple targets with sculpt, they also bring the balance check factor into play much more and the sorc has the option at level 4 (if he took sculpt at L3) to either use a lower tier slot when only one guy is likely to be affected, or use a variety of shapes if multiples. You'll get a minimum of four enemies with sculpt, if there are four enemies. Sometimes you'll get more. A rod of sculpting is not affordable at level 4. That's all I'm trying to say. Also to have sculpt spell, the sorc has some other metamagic feat too, probably something useful to him immediately based on his spell mix, just as mine did. and again..he may be using the spell focus feat every round, but it only has an IMPACT when the enemy fails by exactly 1. Sculpt spell has an IMPACT every time an enemy is affected by the sculpted spell (even partially) that would not have been affected without the feat. Comparing feats like that is difficult. But I know I used sculpt spell more often than 1 in 20 actions, which is what it takes to make spell focus pay off (20 actions using the school in question, one will cause somebody to fail where he would not have failed without the feat)
solbergb 01-31-08, 01:28 PM	...ALWAYS ...ALWAYS ...ALWAYS It's not about always. It's about how often something is useful. ALWAYS is a straw man, nothing is every that black and white. We've said you can build a sorc around spell focus and have it come out ok, but spending two feats early and one feat late close down quite a few possible builds that are also extremely effective, many of which do some of the things archmages do at very low levels, rather than level 16-20. > I NEVER have such a failure-oriented idea for my spellcasting in the first place. Of course you do. If you use any spells with attack rolls, or any spells with saving throws, you are admitting the possibility of failure and taking the chance that you will waste an action. There are two common approaches. 1. minimize the odds of failure (raise attack rolls or save DC's, reduce the number of enemies resistant to an effect, eliminate penalties, choose targets with low touch AC or a weak save, target multiple opponents or fire multiple attacks (as with later versions of scorching ray)) 2. choose an action that can't fail. The weaker version is choose an action with a useful partial effect even if the attack roll is missed or saves are made. A typical arcanist will have spells in both categories, weighted by how likely failure is. When he must contribute or the battle hangs on the balance, he'll pick something from the second category. When the consequences of total failure aren't too bad, but the reward great for success, he'll pick something in the first category. Spell focus only helps the first category of spells, just as point blank/precise shot really only help with ray spells, ie first category. Metamagic feats can affect either, but sometimes what they're for is to increase the benefit if an action succeeds other times to increase the odds of a benefit occurring at all. Sometimes they're there to give you a useful action at all (eg, silent spell, or transidmensional spell vs multiple incorporeals). >if you don't have Sculpted Grease, or Empowered RoE, the base spell is worthless Nobody said that. The lower level slot will be used whenever the more powerful version isn't needed. But there are situations where the more powerful version IS needed for casting the spell to be worth an action. In general, the metamagic version of a spell is as useful to the sorcerer as a top tier spell without metamagic. If it isn't, the sorc probably made a bad choice of metamagic feats. >As for claiming that it ALWAYS is necessary to get consumables, Well, you can do without but you are severely limited, especially in the lower levels. Doing without as a wizard tends to leave you without enough slots to cast spells during every combat round in the lower levels and as a sorc, you're unlikely to have enough options in your spells known to have GOOD spellcasting actions in the lower levels. As you advance, you get more slots for wiz or spells known for sorc, but the odds are pretty good that you might want something like a wand of secret door detection or enlarge (both spells you may need to cast multiple times a day, but may not want as spells known or to tie up slots), or a scroll of see invisible, fly or similar spell you do not normally cast but when you need it, you need it badly. It's a rare arcanist without some consumables, and some of them have quite a few. >Pointing out that they are not ALWAYS useful is FAR from saying that. Show me where I said that NO ONE should use them. No, but you seem to think metamagic rods are a cost-efficient replacement for metamagic feats on a sorcerer, and the numbers just don't show that, not even for a single metamagic feat (although one feat IS possible, you just are short a lot of gear). A sorcerer using a lower level slot 3 times isn't sufficient payback for losing a third of his wealth. For a wizard, getting 3 more top tier spell slots "Back" by using metamagicked versions with lower level sots may well be worth a third of his wealth. Wizard's power is all tied to how many top tier options they can do right now. With a lesser rod of empower, a L12 wizard can get his empowered fireball from a L3 slot, his empowered scorching ray and false life from L2 slots and effectively gain two extra L4 slots and an extra L5 slot for 9000gp. That's a bargain. He's getting not just the slots, but 3 extra high level spells that are NOT direct damage or self-defense to play with. The L10 sorcerer has 10 top tier slots (L4-5) and more importantly using empowered scorching ray, empowered fireball and empowered false life doesn't prevent him from using any of his L4 or L5 spells known. He's not that likely to run out of L4-5 slots in a days work in any event. The benefit of using L2-3 slots instead of L4-5 only comes up if he actually runs out of L4-5 slots as a result of not having the rod (or does't use it to empower a lower level spell, such as ray of enfeeblement) So most days, he's out 9000gp and needs a hand free and gets only 3 uses/day for a feat that would have started paying back at level 6, gets better at 8 and even better at 10. Even at level 10, 9000gp is significant money. It's a +3 vest of resistance, or +2 dex and con items to back up his cloak of charisma, or a mithril buckler +1 + mithril chain shirt +1 twilight+ring protection+1 (depending on his priorities). In higher levels the feat is still useful but the rod stops being worth much as L4-5 slots fade into insignificance (You'll only run out if you pack a lot of out of combat buffs/utility in those level ranges)
Malicea 01-31-08, 02:41 PM	sculpt, they also bring the balance check factor into play much more and the sorc has the option at level 4 (if he took sculpt at L3) to either use a lower tier slot when only one guy is likely to be affected, or use a variety of shapes if multiples. You'll get a minimum of four enemies with sculpt, if there are It's just that all those good effects can now be applied to multiple targets with four enemies. Sometimes you'll get more. A rod of sculpting is not affordable at level 4. That's all I'm trying to say. Also to have sculpt spell, the sorc has some other metamagic feat too, probably something useful to him immediately based on his spell mix, just as mine did. and again..he may be using the spell focus feat every round, but it only has an IMPACT when the enemy fails by exactly 1. Sculpt spell has an IMPACT every time an enemy is affected by the sculpted spell (even partially) that would not have been affected without the feat. Comparing feats like that is difficult. But I know I used sculpt spell more often than 1 in 20 actions, which is what it takes to make spell focus pay off (20 actions using the school in question, one will cause somebody to fail where he would not have failed without the feat) True, a fair assessment. Do remember to consider the magnitude of the effects in question though. Spell Focus on an area effect spell that hits 10 enemies, for example, will be seen to pay off a lot more frequently. In the case of my Beguiler, I hit 8-10 enemies rather often with Mass Whelm :) For a blasting sorcerer (who ironically might pick Sculpt as well), it could actually be extremely useful to have Spell Focus.
Malicea 01-31-08, 03:15 PM	> I NEVER have such a failure-oriented idea for my spellcasting in the first place. Of course you do. If you use any spells with attack rolls, or any spells with saving throws, you are admitting the possibility of failure and taking the chance that you will waste an action. There are two common approaches. No, I really don't. Like I said, and perhaps you misunderstood me: I do not think of the strength of sorcerer casting as primarily the ability to do it again if it fails. >As for claiming that it ALWAYS is necessary to get consumables, Well, you can do without but you are severely limited, especially in the lower levels. Doing without as a wizard tends to leave you without enough slots to cast spells during every combat round in the lower levels and as a sorc, you're unlikely to have enough options in your spells known to have GOOD spellcasting actions in the lower levels. As you advance, you get more slots for wiz or spells known for sorc, but the odds are pretty good that you might want something like a wand of secret door detection or enlarge (both spells you may need to cast multiple times a day, but may not want as spells known or to tie up slots), or a scroll of see invisible, fly or similar spell you do not normally cast but when you need it, you need it badly. It's a rare arcanist without some consumables, and some of them have quite a few. Fair enough, but I do not think it has been shown at all that getting that metamagic rod precludes you getting ANY consumables. >Pointing out that they are not ALWAYS useful is FAR from saying that. Show me where I said that NO ONE should use them. No, but you seem to think metamagic rods are a cost-efficient replacement for metamagic feats on a sorcerer, and the numbers just don't show that, not even for a single metamagic feat (although one feat IS possible, you just are short a lot of gear). A sorcerer using a lower level slot 3 times isn't sufficient payback for losing a third of his wealth. For a wizard, getting 3 more top tier spell slots "Back" by using metamagicked versions with lower level sots may well be worth a third of his wealth. Wizard's power is all tied to how many top tier options they can do right now. With a lesser rod of empower, a L12 wizard can get his empowered fireball from a L3 slot, his empowered scorching ray and false life from L2 slots and effectively gain two extra L4 slots and an extra L5 slot for 9000gp. That's a bargain. He's getting not just the slots, but 3 extra high level spells that are NOT direct damage or self-defense to play with. The L10 sorcerer has 10 top tier slots (L4-5) and more importantly using empowered scorching ray, empowered fireball and empowered false life doesn't prevent him from using any of his L4 or L5 spells known. He's not that likely to run out of L4-5 slots in a days work in any event. The benefit of using L2-3 slots instead of L4-5 only comes up if he actually runs out of L4-5 slots as a result of not having the rod (or does't use it to empower a lower level spell, such as ray of enfeeblement) So most days, he's out 9000gp and needs a hand free and gets only 3 uses/day for a feat that would have started paying back at level 6, gets better at 8 and even better at 10. Even at level 10, 9000gp is significant money. It's a +3 vest of resistance, or +2 dex and con items to back up his cloak of charisma, or a mithril buckler +1 + mithril chain shirt +1 twilight+ring protection+1 (depending on his priorities). In higher levels the feat is still useful but the rod stops being worth much as L4-5 slots fade into insignificance (You'll only run out if you pack a lot of out of combat buffs/utility in those level ranges) Correction: I think that metamagic rods and a feat that isn't the same metamagic feat (which may be Spell Focus) is a cost-efficient replacement for a metamagic feat with the extra money, on a sorcerer. As for never running out of top tier spell slots, I think you are not taking into account some of the alternate strategies available to sorcerers now, which tend to burn up spell slots at a remarkable rate, for significant gain. Draconic Arcane Grace is a personal favorite. Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability keeps level 1-5 spells in the equation for a LONG time, as does something like Channelled Pyroburst. It explains your stance a lot, if you really consider lower level slots to be worth so little. I disagree, but we can agree to :) I've already explained why I think you can spare even a third of your wealth at level 8 (for example) to pick up a metamagic rod: diminishing returns seen on your cash investment to scale up your items once you have the basics. I think you CAN get the basics with 2/3 of your wealth left. You disagree. Impasse.
LSMFT 01-31-08, 05:30 PM	No, I really don't. Like I said, and perhaps you misunderstood me: I do not think of the strength of sorcerer casting as primarily the ability to do it again if it fails.Well, what is your interpretation of the sorcerer's strength? To say that mine is "failure oriented" is, I think, a gross misrepresentation, although, if you define "failure oriented" as "aware and prepared," aware that sometimes opponents will make their save and that occasionally your rays will miss and prepared to deal with that, then, yeah, you've got my view on this and the misleading part is only in the name you've ascribed to it. And for the record, my view that the strength of the sorcerer lies in his being able to cast the same spell over and over as needed extends not to just when the initial casting of such a spell missed or was lost to a successful save, but also to when the initial casting was successful and a second would be of value. It extends to any and all times when a repeated casting is likely to be beneficial. The sorcerer can do that; wizards can’t. Fair enough, but I do not think it has been shown at all that getting that metamagic rod precludes you getting ANY consumables.That can't be shown. If your level-eight spends 9K on a rod, he could easily spend all of his remaining money on consumables. But then he'd have less to spend on other things. When you talk of your wealth, it is a zero-sum situation. If you spend 9,000 on one item, you have 9,000 less to distribute between the other items, consumables and durable, that you may need or want. That really isn't debatable: it's math. What is debatable is whether it is worth it. There may be items out there that I would be willing to spend a third of my wealth on. A rod of lesser empower isn't one of them though and that's just my opinion. Correction: I think that metamagic rods and a feat that isn't the same metamagic feat (which may be Spell Focus) is a cost-efficient replacement for a metamagic feat with the extra money, on a sorcerer.The issue, as I see it, is that while metamagic feats are going to result in a stronger caster, you claim that this can be mitigated with items, but, IMHO, you have acquire those items at such an early level that they are really just too expensive to be characterized as cost-efficient. There was an idea put forward that seemed to say: if you don't have Sculpted Grease, or Empowered RoE, the base spell is worthless,I don’t know who put that forward, but I know it wasn’t me. My claims here are limited to the contention that metamagiced versions of spells are often, or at least frequently enough to matter, better than the other versions and the conclusion that a sorcerer who has the option to chose between metamagiced versions and non-metamagiced versions has more options that one who has no choice at all. As a statement of values, I believe that the more options you have, the more likely you are to be able to pick a better option. That means you have a better chance of being successful. That makes you able to be better at your job than the guy picking from among fewer options. Pointing out that they are not ALWAYS useful is FAR from saying that. Pointing out all the times they aren't useful though is pointless. Of course I wouldn’t apply Sculpt Spell to Grease when I only need a 10’ square. There might be hundreds of times where unsculpted is the better way to go. But the guy with the feat has options the guy without doesn’t and that (see above) is what matters to me. If I stack spell DCs for some reason (however it is done) on a sorcerer. I'm not thinking 'oh, it really has to work because I can't do it again'. I do it because I want it to work RIGHT NOW, and that if it fails, my retry ALSO has a better chance of working. To a certain extent, a wizard might think about how it's important to stack DCs because he might not have a backup prepared, but I'm pretty sure the RIGHT NOW factor is there as well.Feats like Spell Focus are of value. They make your spells of a particular school harder to beat, and I don’t want to underestimate the value of having your spells work when you need them to. But they give you no options you didn’t have before you took the feat. The biggest weakness of the sorcerer is that with his fixed spells-known list, he has fewer options (in terns of available spells) to select from than other casters. IMO. So, it seems to me that the best way to deal with this, besides seeing that fact in the first place, is to employ strategies that increase the sorcerer’s options. I illustrated quite clearly that it WAS suboptimal, that you DO pay that price for Archmage, but merely that it wasn't as crippling a disadvantage as you made it out to beYou seem to have put a pretty large amount of effort into the claim that sure, it sucks, but it doesn’t matter enough to worry about. My rebuttal is that it does matter now. It may be worth it later, but you have to be prepared to deal with the now. ("I will rock you").It was hyperbole, and I assumed you’d know that. The fact is you do admit that for those three levels (at least) you will have a subpar feat selection. I don’t have to prove that and you don’t have to obsess on an overstatement. We’re agreed. The disagreement isn’t in some juvenile overstatement: It is whether or not the agreed-upon difference in power actually matters. You think it isn’t a big enough deal, if I have that correct. What I think is that when you are looking at three long levels where other casters, hypothetical ones and ones you may have to fight, have taken some really nice, power-increasing feats instead Skill Focus, well you'd better be prepared to accept that and not just brush it off as irrelevant.
solbergb 01-31-08, 06:02 PM	One thing that did come out of this thread hijack that I want to emphasize. If retraining is allowed, the cost to PRC is less, but not nonexistant. It compresses the "pain point". Also what the PRC that costs feats gives isn't going to be what is lost by the feats. It might add up to a better character, but it's not a straight add-on in the way something like Ruathar or Fatespinner is (PRC's that don't require feats to enter. Fatespinner does cost skill points and restricts a noncantrip spell to divination, but that has less impact by far than a single feat). A concept or combination of spells known that greatly benefits from, say, energy substitution and nonlethal substitution is going to require those two feats plus another metamagic feat (prerequisite) to be recognizably the same character. If not human, this character won't have a feat free for PRC quilification, retrain or no retrain, until level 9. As with certain feat-heavy fighter builds, some sorcerer concepts can't tolerate delays in feat progression. Some can. Those that can are better candidates for something like archmage or mage of the arcane order, which require suboptimal feats but give back pretty good stuff once you're into them. Both of those PRC's are obviously much nicer if you start the campaign already well into them (all pain levels not played) and will also be less constrained if retraining is allowed. A MOTAA build might have level 1 feat be stuff that is useful in low levels and pretty much worthless in higher levels, then retrain arcane prep at level 6, and make the level 6 feat be cooperative spell. Only level 6 has two feats locked down "uselessly" and MOTAA starts paying back useful class features almost immediately (L7 you get a minor ability. L8 you get a feat back, L9 more minor abilities etc until about level 12 when it gives the second feat back). Before retraining, the MOTAA sorcerer builds essentially got no feats between level 1 and level 8, and were behind the curve significantly from level 3-7 and somewhat from 8-10ish. The pain lasted longer
Malicea 01-31-08, 07:12 PM	Well, what is your interpretation of the sorcerer's strength? The Sorcerer's strength lies in spontaneous casting (which also includes typically a greater number of spell slots) as well as sorcerer-only abilities: sorcerer-only spells, Heritage Feats, and improved spells that key off being dragonblooded. Examples are listed several paragraphs down. That can't be shown. If your level-eight spends 9K on a rod, he could easily spend all of his remaining money on consumables. But then he'd have less to spend on other things. When you talk of your wealth, it is a zero-sum situation. If you spend 9,000 on one item, you have 9,000 less to distribute between the other items, consumables and durable, that you may need or want. That really isn't debatable: it's math. What is debatable is whether it is worth it. There may be items out there that I would be willing to spend a third of my wealth on. A rod of lesser empower isn't one of them though and that's just my opinion. The issue, as I see it, is that while metamagic feats are going to result in a stronger caster, you claim that this can be mitigated with items, but, IMHO, you have acquire those items at such an early level that they are really just too expensive to be characterized as cost-efficient. Except that when you figure in diminishing returns, it isn't effectively zero-sum. Once you have the spread of basic items (which may include some amount of consumables), trying to scale up these items is a less effective use of wealth than picking up an item with a different ability. In effect, there's a 'discount' on an item such as a lesser rod. Similarly, once you own a lesser rod, it is also subject to diminishing returns: scaling it up to a greater rod just to metamagic level 4 spells is not worth it, at the level where you only have access to level 4 slots. The disagreement does lie in the point where diminishing returns makes an item like a lesser rod attractive. I think it's worth it to get by dumping AC, and you might not, for example. As a statement of values, I believe that the more options you have, the more likely you are to be able to pick a better option. That means you have a better chance of being successful. That makes you able to be better at your job than the guy picking from among fewer options. Unless there is another guy (and this is situational), who already covers some of the areas you might otherwise need to, and your job involves being better at doing something specialized instead of general. Enter Spell Focus. I am not saying that metamagic cannot make you better at your specialty, but the usefulness of either feat towards specialization would depend on the nature of that specialization. Taking the example of a spell like Mass Whelm, which has no need of sculpt, and is a will-negates spell that easily hits every target you need to on the field, and is a legitimately useful sorcerer spell pick, it's obvious that Spell Focus: Enchantment is a good choice. At the point where I can Empower the spell - level 12 - I might in fact prefer to own a Normal Rod of Empower and have the Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment feat. Moving on to a more common sorcerer pick: Shadow Evocation. This spell explodes with possibilities (options) for a sorcerer, and yet would certainly benefit from Spell Focus: Illusion far more than any metamagic feat. Again, at level 14, I would almost certainly prefer to have a Normal Rod of Empower and GSF: Illusion, than Empower Spell and 27k. 27k is a good chunk, but I keep those 3 level 7 slots a day. At this point the rod can even empower your level 6 spells (+14d6 on Disintegrate?), while the guy with the feat cannot. With those level 7 slots I might: cast Arcane Spellsurge as a swift action and immediately that Empowered Disintegrate, playing to the sorcerer's other strengths. At this point I'm burning through spell slots pretty fast, but I have the gear to handle it. Every subsequent round I can throw 1 regular and 1 metamagiced spell (even the old Lesser Rod might be useful for this at this point), without having to Quicken anything, or pick too many naturally swift-casting spells. Can I do this with a regular metamagic feat? Yes, but I would run out of top tier slots extremely quickly, and I certainly won't be throwing around Empowered Disintegrates. As a defensive alternative (which I favor), I could be saving those level 7 slots to use with Draconic Arcane Grace, adding up to 7 untyped bonus to all 3 saves for an entire round, AFTER seeing your die roll for the save, as an immediate action. I could be burning level 7 slots on Green Dragon Lineage to impose a -7 penalty on a target's next will save and hitting immediately after with Celerity + Dominate Person (or any will save or die). If Arcane Spellsurge was up, I could even lead that with a targetted Greater Dispel Magic. If my familiar was Imbued with Spell Ability, he could potentially use up to 5 of my level 1-5 slots and a level 6 slot (for Imbue) each encounter. Low and mid-tier sorc spell slots are FAR from useless. Is this strictly superior to using metamagic feats? No! It can be, and it can be less effective, depending on the situation. Are Spell Focus and metamagic rods necessarily a poor choice? I think not. What I think is that when you are looking at three long levels where other casters, hypothetical ones and ones you may have to fight, have taken some really nice, power-increasing feats instead Skill Focus, well you'd better be prepared to accept that and not just brush it off as irrelevant. I did not brush it off as irrelevant. I stated quite clearly and repeatedly that it is a price to pay: reduced effectiveness for 3 levels. I said (much earlier on) that it can be worth it if your game is going to play through enough Archmage levels. I also said it would not be crippling, which does not mean it is irrelevant. Perhaps I reacted to your hyperbole with too much credibility, but equally, you are inferring way too much from what I said. I believe I effectively said (or meant to say) that you would be better, but not THAT much better - referring specifically to that hyperbole.
teshen 01-31-08, 08:08 PM	It's in CDivine. However, iirc it only adds the spells to your class list, not your known list... Therefore, it can be much nicer for a warmage or beguiler. :doh: I forgot that rainbow servant just adds list access, and so doesn't work as well for a sorcerer... thanks for the catch Shaman. Although, if you're DM isn't adverse to some RAW cheese, you can qualify for prcs at the same level as a wizard with sorcerer with earth spell + heighten spell mimicking the spell level reqirements... there are another few other cheesetastic feat combinations that will do it... but run it by you DM first so you don't run into a veto latter...
solbergb 01-31-08, 11:00 PM	Illusion is a good side topic. The shadowcraft mage is a good PRC for a sorcerer (if a gnome) because it requires stuff that you want anyway if you're doing shadow magic. The spell shadow conjuration is one prereq, the other is spell focus illusion. The shadow series of spells have two saves, and therefore are usually fighting a "good" save. To be effective, they need unusually high DC's. Of course being a gnome helps too. The diff between Shadowcraft mage and archmage is that archmage requires spell focus feats in two separate areas, and archmage requires a totally wasted feat. That means archmage has tradeoffs that shadowcraft mage doesn't have. As a general rule a good PRC for a sorcerer is one that requires stuff you would have taken anyway if the PRC doesn't exist, or at worst the cost of stuff you wouldn't buy is limited to skill points. There are some like this out there. All of the other PRC's require an opportunity cost tradeoff that is only worthwhile if the campaign lasts through where the PRC pays back, and then lasts long enough past that to enjoy the benefit of it (how long depends how much you felt constricted by the tradeoffs on the way). This opportunity cost is reduced but not eliminated by retraining. So a sorcerer who has an opportunity to become a Ruathar, Fatespinner or Shadowcraft mage (for a gnome illusion-focused sorcerer) is likely to jump at it, but one that has an opportunity to become a loremaster, archmage or initiate of the 7 fold veil is going to look long and hard at the cost and what the prereqs will do to the spells he wants to use compared to just staying sorcerer and picking feats that synergize. Most other PRC's fall somewhere in the middle, or offer something unique quickly that makes up for the cost - examples of these include Divine Oracle - skill focus religion feat is wasted, but 2 levels in you get evasion Sacred Exorcist - if you wanted dismissal as a spell anyway and somehow got KN plains on your skill list, this is the only way for an arcane caster to get turn undead (and access to turning feats). Mage of the Arcane Order - one feat paid back quickly, and the spellpool offers the whole wiz/sor spell list in an emergency (albiet extremely limited in per/day use). It's kind of like "limited wish lite"...and if you stick with it you eventually get that other feat back. Plus arcane preparation isn't totally useless if you use it carefully, not locking down a huge number of slots but using key metamagicked spells faster or opening opportunities to use pearls of power or similar wizardlike tricks.
mandos13 02-03-08, 06:30 AM	hmm, divine oracal sounds worth looking into. shadowcrafe mage sounds fun, but i'm not gnome. thanks again solburgb for the helpful advise... and not hijacking like the rest ;)
Malicea 02-05-08, 10:23 AM	hmm, divine oracal sounds worth looking into. shadowcrafe mage sounds fun, but i'm not gnome. thanks again solburgb for the helpful advise... and not hijacking like the rest ;) WTF? Did you read the posts in this thread? Solb is no less guilty than 'the rest' in hijacking - if you want to call it that. There was a difference in opinion in the 'helpfulness' of the help or advice that was being given, and the ensuing debate I think was at least somewhat informative of the reasoning behind the differences. I personally made some effort in including some of what I thought was useful information about sorcerers, especially in my last post prior to this. See if I bother again. You might want to check again who mentioned first the low-entry-commitment Fatespinner PrC before giving (implicitly) credit to Solbergb. How about this for a hijack (might as well commit the crime, since I'm already guilty): Solb, do you think it's worth picking up Earth Sense and Earth Spell for a SORCERER Shadowcraft Mage, keeping in mind that Earth Sense isn't too useful? -An argument perhaps parallel to the Skill Focus/Archmage one.
solbergb 02-05-08, 02:19 PM	I don't think the thread was hijacked at all. Opportunity cost based on entry cost is pretty much all you can discuss about sorcerers and PRC's. There isn't an opportunity cost based on later class abilities lost. It's pretty much the same as clerics, very different from a class like druid or monk, mildly different from wizard, which gives a few feats later on. Earth Dreamer's main advantages are the ability to see through walls and earth glide. These are very good abilities that only cost one wasted feat and some waiting time for the class to mature (I think there might also be a skill req that might prove challenging for a sorc...Kn nature?) There is the usual problem of paying early for class abilities that come later. If the campaign starts later, it's no big dea. Now for a shadowcraft mage, I don't think the earth dreamer class levels should displace shadowcraft mage class levels. Shadowcraft mage gives something good every level and makes all of your illusions simply better, while also providing most of the defensive benefits you'd get from earth glide (by being unseen and unheard when casting spells). It's requirement synergizes with the class abilities too (gnome and spell focus both boost shadow magic's dual-save mechanic a lot). The odd thing about shadowcraft mage is it is such a powerful PRC that you can get away with wasting feats...it is one reason a lot of gnomes that want to load up on heritage feats go this route. (my wife's sorcerer was locked down with draconic feats until level 12, normally not recommended, but the PRC abilities start paying off right when the draconic feats become marginal and metamagic usually takes off, plus the class gives silent/still on illusions) So you *could* take earth dreamer in the "dead" levels before level 9 (pobably levels 6-7) but you're essentially costing yourself the L6 feat (and committing to spell focus earlier, most likely) and not really getting the big payoff for the class until level 15ish (when you've exited shadowcraft mage and advanced further in earth dreamer). But doing so would allow squeezing in a few levels of fatespinner before level 20, so a full level 20 build might wnat to go that way. You're not going to be "epic ready" with two "short" PRC's anyway, so might as well tack on some fatespinner. So here's the options if you're looking at this: Early Entry L1 feat Heritage feat? Regional feat? Something that gets the right KN skill on your list for earth dreamer L3 feat (spell focus conjuration) L6 earth sense L7-8 Earth Dreamer 1-2 L9-13 Shadowcraft mage 1-5 (both feats whatever you want) L14-16 earth dreamer 3-5 L17-20 fatespinner 1-4 The real problem with this build is all the "free feats" are level 9-20. Although your L3 feat is useful once you are level 8+ and start doing shadow magic (and somewhat useful in lower levels if you pack some illusionary stoppers like color spray, phantasmal assailants or shadow binding). If you want earth magic, you'd likely take it at level 9. You will want to make the most of your spells, because you won't have metamagic earlier than level 12. Perhaps you'll get some rods to cover the most critical (to you) metamagic feats. This approach backloads the feat cost and assumes you buy the Earth Dreamer knowledge skills cross-class. But it means 2 more sorc levels and 2 fewer fatespinner levels by level 20, if that matters to you. It's oriented around level 1 start rather than a later start. If you can get access to Ruathar, that makes a good "Filler" level for levels 7-8 and also would get you the knowledge skill reqs for earth dreamer painlessly. This is designed to minimize the number of levels you are stuck with earth sense as a feat. Late Entry L1 <feat> L3 <feat> L6 spell focus illusion L7-8 sorcerer or preferably Ruathar1-2 L9-13 Shadowcraft mage 1-5 (both feats whatever you want) L14-15 fatespinner 1-2. at 15, take earth sense L16-20 earth dreamer If it was me, playing from level 1-20, I'd go with the second choice. I'm up two feats for the first 14 levels and am not committed to earth dreamer till I'm done with my entire feat tree and cherry picked the best stuff out of the other PRC's should the game last long enough for that to matter. Playing from level 11-20, I might go with the first approach. By level 11, I'm finally starting to get some free feats, plus the class abilities of shadowcraft mage provide some featlike-stuff, I get all my other feats on schedule with no interruptions and earlier entry into earth dreamer class abilities, plus eventually all the best fatespinner levels.
mandos13 02-06-08, 08:43 PM	malicea, i wasn't necessarily saying that you were hijacking or that your info wasn't useful. you all have had some good ideas and i thank you all. and i guess you might be right, it wasn't really "hijacked" but there definitely was a long heated discussion on a tangent to the original purpose of the thread. but it's all good. but yeah, for those that might care, i went with the frost mage route. prolly gunna take 4 levels of elemental savant. and prolly some archmage or incantrix later on. lots of nice features, no loss of CL, but i'll have to retrain lots of feats :(
Vorsk 02-10-08, 12:53 PM	I saw this idea once, and it has really made me wonder about the possibility. What about Paladin (lvl2) + Sorcerer + Abjuration Champion + ??? Could this idea work? Your saving throws will be greatly enhanced due to your high Charisma bonus benefiting your Paladin and Sorcerer abilities.