Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Psion91 03-29-06, 01:55 PM	Ok my sister is new to D&D and wants to play a Sorcs....so what would be the best playing style for her she doesnt know how to pick spells and skills very well so she needs a guide or something like that to help with it like muticlassing,best prestege classes and skills...i usely play fighters so i relly cant help her so if you think you can help please post.
Puca 03-29-06, 02:23 PM	Regarding multiclassing and PrCing: Just wait. Both of these are about being able to do something different or better, and you kind of need to find out what you can do first. Let her fully grasp a single-class character first before adding these options into the mix. If she says at some poit, "Hey, I really wish I could be better in melee," or something like that, then you go into those options and explain the consequences. Skills: Max out Concentration. Other than that, sorcerer is pretty wide open. Arcana and Spellcraft are obvious choices, but (and this depends on the campaign) Id have a noob take some ranks in skills they will use a lot, like Listen, Search, and Spot. (Hey, its fun to be the one who sees the bad guy in the shadows.) Spells: Again, I personally prefer to know a lot of buffs and utilities, but Id encourage a new kid to have something like Sleep (since when it works, youre a hero) or Magic Missile (since you can use that all the time.) Definately know Read Magic so she can use scrolls more easily. As you can probaly tell, my first priority with new players is to make the game exciting and fun for them by trying to make it possible for them to contribute in big ways.
Psion91 03-29-06, 03:25 PM	k thanks for your help lol she once said she wanted attack with a longsword and i said uh why dont you just use spells or bow she said "Im saveing ammo" :D
Elemental_Master 03-29-06, 03:29 PM	I would agree with puca. If you want to start D&D the best thing to do is take essentials and don't get it all complicated. Spot and listen are by far the best noob skills and concentration and spelcraft remove the frustration out of spellcasting. Feats on the other hand must be toughness as otherwise she'll get annoyed at getting knocked out so much early on.
MasterOfPsychic 03-29-06, 03:44 PM	A sorc is a sub-optimal choise for a n00b, but that's ok... D&D ain't so advanced... But, I'd go for NO multiclassing or PrC'ing as a n00b. At least not to plan taking one ahead, but maybe pick up one later, as the player (as well as the PC) grow in expirience... Choosing spells, skills and feats isn't acually a difficoult task, but rather a cool choise... Do what seems cool...
Puca 03-29-06, 04:24 PM	... Do what seems cool...Thats rule #1.
Tony Vargas 03-29-06, 04:49 PM	The thing about a sorcerer is that she'll need a lot of help picking spells/feats/skills when leveling up, but, in play, it's really not that hard. She just has to read the spells she does know very carefully and get a good feel for how they work. One unusual option might be to allow the DM to pick the known spells - this would really simulate the idea of a sorcerer with a magical legacy that she doesn't fully understand - and, if you all have the time to let her RP through 'discovering' her new spells, it could be a lot of fun. Another aproach is to pick out a nearly complete list of spells through whatever level you expect to get to in the campaign, all in advance. It's a fair bit of work, but, once you've done it, advancement is simple enough. In any case, it's a lot easier to help someone plan and level up a character, than to help them pick spells every day.
Archmagi1976 03-29-06, 05:12 PM	I remember a time when I was a beginner with a sorcerer... I used it as a firing platform and felt totally underclassed by everyone else. Honestly I would walk her through picking spells and give her examples when she takes them... Magic missle will always hit... Where a globe of acid still does damage but it is fun to use it in other ways, like burning through locks, ect. Yes, utility spells are not flashy, but they can make a character feel really good if they have that one spell that could save the party from alot of trouble. Since your sister sounds more active in combat with a long sword and not a cross bow, I would recomend the battle sorcerer alteration from Unearthed Arcana. It will give her a little more punch... I would also talk to the party on the side and ask them to help her out. Let them know her spells and say things like "I wish we had a.... Just about now." I know it is corny but it worked for me when I first started D&D and it felt like I was part of the party, I had something they needed. What I found helpful, now and when I started is... I write each spell down in as much detail as possible onto index cards. When I was just starting I did add some examples my DM gave me of how to use the spell also... This helps in a lot of ways and it allows you to feel like you know the character better at times when you might need it like during battles.
Jaxgaret 03-29-06, 06:03 PM	k thanks for your help lol she once said she wanted attack with a longsword and i said uh why dont you just use spells or bow she said "Im saveing ammo" :D If she wants to be mixing it up in melee, a straight Sorceror build is probably not going to cut it. You're going to want to steer her towards either the Battle Sorceror from UA - which can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer) and is probably the simplest solution for a new player, or even simpler for her is a Warmage if she wants to focus on blasting anyway, little to no spell selection to worry about. Or go with some build that incorporates both melee and sorceror, such as Sorceror4/Hexblade2/Eldritch Knight.
solbergb 03-29-06, 07:02 PM	I would help a beginning character with spell selection. A player who doesn't know the game will likely make a lot of mistakes and end up unhappy. The DM picking spells is fine if the DM picks spells to her vision of her character, and not just off his own ideas of the "ideal sorcerer" or even worse RANDOMLY (I'm not kidding, one person reported a DM doing this to him...) All that is really needed is to ask her what she'd like her character to be able to do eventually, conceptually. "I want to fly and zap things, like Starburst in the Teen Titans" "I want to control the minds of those around me, while concealing that I'm a spellcaster kinda like Morgan Le Fey" "I wanna play Gandalf the Grey" (be aware, this will involve sword use...might want to make it an elf sorc and fit in false life) "I want to be like Willow in Buffy the Vampire Slayer" Ie....something to get a handle on the mix of abilities needed. Then expand on it a bit, to ensure she can do something in all of these areas by level 6: Offense1: Hurt things in combat (magic missile or draconic breath is usually enough) Offense2: Interfere with things in combat (any battlefield control spell) Defense: Stuff she doesn't cast in combat that keeps her alive - mage armor and false life are good. Incombat defense is unlikely to work very well, she won't know when to use it. Mobility: At some point, she'll need to be able to fly and do some form of teleportation if she's the main arcanist. However a lot of beginners might work better with "fly, swift" (SC, CA) than the PHB fly spell, because you use it when it's needed, you don't have to juggle the "incombat std action vs predicting when the combat will happen". Overland flight is also good for beginners, but she won't be a beginner by that time. In a pinch, Haste makes a decent multipurpose mobility spell. Divination/Utility: Give her something to do with her magic out of combat. Especially if it is something her char would do "for fun" on days when not adventuring. Arcane buffing: Look for key spells on the wiz/sor list found nowhere else (haste is a good example, as is wall of force, polymorph etc). She doesn't need a ton of these, but some are nice, for when her attack stuff isn't working well, or just to burn lower level spell slots to enhance the whole party.
Psion91 03-29-06, 09:34 PM	thanks for all the posts guy it helps alot...but the thing is she dosnt want to use swords just spells i told her to pick if she was going to use a bow or sword she said bow and spells but ill use swords for when i want to save ammo....this was going on while we were getting owned by kobolds...she gets it now after me explaneing how stupid that is...so its worked out now but thanks for the info it will help me help her :) oh shes 18 and im 14 so lol its funny when i try explaning things to her :P
Archmagi1976 03-29-06, 10:29 PM	I had the same situation with a younger player who taught me but look at it this way. What really counts is that you guys have fun. That and watch out for the experience she has in life, she might pull a few tricks out you did not expect, it tends to happen with new players.
Votan 03-30-06, 12:52 AM	The DM picking spells is fine if the DM picks spells to her vision of her character, and not just off his own ideas of the "ideal sorcerer" or even worse RANDOMLY (I'm not kidding, one person reported a DM doing this to him...) In all honesty, I have actually considered randomizing a sorcerer's spells. It's gooten easier with the Spell Compendium where they are now all in one useful reference. It would guarentee that different sorcerers had different spells and played differently. I would even hope that it would lead to creativity as Sorcerers tried to make the best of different spell mixes. Consider how differently the following three 6th level sorcerers would play with random (lets stick with core for the moment) spells: Sorcerer #1 1: Shocking Grasp, Grease, Sleep, Obscuring Mist 2: Touch of Idiocy, False Life 3: Tongues Sorcerer #2 1: Chill Touch, Magic Missle, Charm Person, Tensor's Floating Disk 2: Glitterdust, Arcane Lock 3: Phantom Steed Sorcerer #3 1: Animate Rope, Unseen Servant, Nystul's Magic Aura, Magic Weapon 2: Spider Climb, Alter Self 3: Major Image All three of these characters would play very differently at 6th level. Spells are listed in order of acquistion, so the first guy would start out with grease spots and shocking people at first level while the second would be like a warmage and the third pure utility at 1st level. Wouldn't this actually be MORE interesting???
Psion91 03-30-06, 01:01 AM	I had the same situation with a younger player who taught me but look at it this way. What really counts is that you guys have fun. That and watch out for the experience she has in life, she might pull a few tricks out you did not expect, it tends to happen with new players. yea good point...im a new player too but i know more than my mom who is DM and sister i played neverwinter nights but it was 3.0...so im not an expert but im relly good with building fighter type characters.My fave was a fighter28/bard2/red dragon Disciple10.my mom says i should do more DMing because i know the rules better but im not a good story teller but i can make good stories so im more of a plot maker.thanks again for the posts every one,you guys have been a big help.
solbergb 03-30-06, 12:18 PM	All three of these characters would play very differently at 6th level. Spells are listed in order of acquistion, so the first guy would start out with grease spots and shocking people at first level while the second would be like a warmage and the third pure utility at 1st level. Wouldn't this actually be MORE interesting??? They play differently. But they're all weak. They'll get frustrated when they can't pull their weight. There isn't anything wrong with most of those spells, in isolation, but they don't work together, either mechanically or thematically. Sor1 has the seeds of a decent touch specialist, but doing that is extraordinarily challenging, because sorcs are so fragile. Half his spells don't support this and they also don't support any other thematic or mechanical synergy. Sor2 is a more traditional sorc, except that chill touch is wasted, it will never ever be used, arcane lock is wasted. This is the best of the lot, if he buys some cross-class ride ranks and uses the phantom steed for mobility while he attacks with the effectiveness of a L4 sorcerer with his 3 L1 and 1 L2 spells that he'll actually use. Sor3 has the seeds of a decent infiltration expert, kind of a thief-acrobat. His crippling flaw is utter inability to do anything useful in combat, plus doing scouting without any actual skills is a recipie for disaster. He can climb, he can disguise himself (and well, given Nystul's), he can do very convincing illusions/decoys, he can do remote manipulation etc. Animate rope is redundant with unseen servant, the latter is better in every way, except the function which a tanglefoot bag does better than animate rope does. This guy is going to do nothing in combat but toss alchemicals, read scrolls (assuming he got read magic) and, at level 6, badger the DM for combat uses of major image, cause it's all he's got. IMHO, most folks would rather play an adventurer competent at adventuring. Randomizing the first two spells doesn't matter much. Baby sorcs need scrolls or they won't have the right spell for the job no matter what they pick. By level 6 though, they need most of the bases covered, because scrolls are too expensive and also too underpowered compared to spells in their head to fill in the gaps. Take it from someone who played superhero games for 20 years. Randomized powers are ok to get ideas for a character concept, or for a goofy villain out of control of his abilities, but as a character you have to live with, it is a bad idea. All superheroes need some form of offense, defense and mobility. Arcane casters are expected to do a bit more than that, they have about 6 areas they're expected to contribute in. If they don't, their half bab, crappy saves, tiny hit dice and miniscule skill list isn't balanced by their ability to contribute with spells. There is nothing wrong with Tongues as a L3 spell, for a sorcerer who does a lot of language-dependent spells or who has scrying/divinations as a major shtick (it is more useful to listen in on thoughts or conversations if you can understand the language). There is nothing wrong with shocking grasp, on an 18 constitution gnome sorcerer who is built to stand in melee, especially if his strength score is not 6 or he has weapon finesse+dex or something. On an 8 strength, 10 constitution elf, the spell might as well not even exist - he'll never EVER use it, or if he does, he'll just die the next round. (he'd pretty much have to wait till level 5 and put his familiar in harms way to use it at all, and with d4 hit dice, no con bonus and no defensive spells, the familiar will also be a grease spot, possibly just from the AOO as it closes) The trouble with randomization of a sorc spells is that there's pretty much no way the character will work. You need your attributes, feats and spells to work together - if you do so you get a very effective character. The class however isn't tolerant of missteps in the spells known (unlike prep casters). You can have weaknesses sure, and you can afford some "flavor" feats and spells without any problems, but you can't afford having the majority of your spells unrelated, incompatable with your attributes/feats or worse, all doing the same kind of thing and crippling your flexibility.
solbergb 03-30-06, 12:31 PM	Here's another truly random sorc, from the PHB. L1 arcane mark, message, detect poison, resistance enlarge person, obscuring mist L2 disrupt undead L3 mage armor L4 daze acid arrow L5 hold portal blindness/deafness L6 read magic displacement Note some issues. No read magic till level 6. So no scroll use. This guy actually got a few useful spells - message, enlarge person and obscuring mist are all pretty good. He'll be a support-bunny until level 4, when he can add a miniscule amount of damage with acid arrow. At level five he gets his first effective offensive spell, but it's against fort save, which is most commonly good. Level 6, all he gets is yet another spell to put on the party fighter. This guy is at best a squire. Your average bard or cleric can do better support than he can, and he really can't do anything else. At least at level 4 he could theoretically swap a useless cantrip for a better one, and at 6 swap hold portal for something useful, but not if the GM randomizes that too. You could take these spells and build a concept out of it, weeding out the really awful spells, adding in some that built on the rest, moving read magic to first level, etc. But inflicting this kind of a spell mix on your player does him a disservice and the party a disservice. Unless you are also picking out the cleric spells by rolling dice every morning, passing the fighter a new equipment list every day and randomizing his feats and randomizing the rogue's skillset, it's totally unfair.
Seeker of Undeath 03-30-06, 12:55 PM	It sounds like your sister wants to play an elven sorceress. That'll be the simplest way to get her bow and sword proficiency. Find out how she likes to handle the enemy the most. Does she want to be the one actually helping to beat them down (deal damage), or does she like to set up the field for the rest of the party to finish the job (battlefield control). I happen to like both. Sleep, as mentioned, is a marvelous spell in the beginning, but you'll quickly want to replace it (probably at 4th level). Color Spray is also rather nice. Does she like to trick her opponents into defeating themselves? Illusions might be something to consider. If she likes direct damage for the flash and flair, I'd recommend one of the orb spells from the Spell Compendium. Magic Missile is rather nice, but the orb spells actually require player interaction (die rolls to hit). That might not be tactically superior, but at the same time it's good to give newer players a sense of being involved and active. Firing off a Magic Missile, while effective, is somewhat boring--unless you've got a particularly flashy imagination of course. Remember also a fun little trick I've been (ab)using lately. A touch spell can be delivered to up to 6 allies as a full-round action. Naturally that's pointless in battle unless you just stay all clumped up in a begging-to-be-fireballed formation. However, it's nice outside of battle. Fly and Invisibility have proven immensely powerful. Protection from Energy's helped as well. Many times I've been wishing that I took Fireball at 6th level instead of holding it off until 9th, but in the end I'm confident I won't regret it. The only reason I've felt that want is the DM's present playing style with large numbers of enemies at once. If she absolutely needs to blast, take Energy Substitution (something besides fire) at 3rd level and learn Scorching Ray at 4th. That'll get you through quite a few bad spots. BTW I do recommend Eschew Materials. It's great for those that don't want to worry about components much. Of course Still and Silent Spell are also great for when the party is in a bind. Still Spell + Open/Close has saved my party once or twice. Silent Sleep is great for temple guards. :D
Votan 03-30-06, 02:10 PM	At least at level 4 he could theoretically swap a useless cantrip for a better one, and at 6 swap hold portal for something useful, but not if the GM randomizes that too. Well, I was thinking about this. First, I think the player would have to be able to pick swapped out spells. That would, I think, remove the worst problems with a truly awful spell seleciton coming together. Second, if I did this variant (strong consideration) I was wondering if offering a cleric domain (plus power) as extra spells known would help matters any. That would allow the player to inject some direction into his mage (I am fire mage, I cast travel spells, I am an oracle) while still giving the cool drift that random spells give. But that might not balance (it might make sorcerers too strong).
solbergb 03-30-06, 02:50 PM	The idea isn't horrible, as long as you mitigate the worst excesses. What you might want to do is roll randomly for the expected life of the campaign, then sit down with the player and see what he *must* change to make the character something he wants to play. Showing him the advancement would be important. Or if the "surprise" of the randomness is part of the point, then providing the player tools to ensure that he's both viable and the character mostly develops in the direction he wants is also appropriate. I think though, if you are going to seriously randomize the spell selection you'll have to inflict something similar on other classes. If instead you go for a carrot approach (your spells are random, but I give more spells known so the "duds" don't hurt as much, or more frequent "swapping" or something) then it can probably work out ok, if the player is willing, but be aware that the character might randomly fluctuate either weak or strong much moreso than any other characters. Lets say you allow double the spells known, on the assumption that half will suck/not work well. Mister Unlucky could end up with just twice as many "touch" spells that he can't deliver, or still end up with an entirely noncombat mix of spells or end up with all zaps. Mister Lucky could get a set of spells that accidently synergize extraordinarily well, plus other spells that are commonly used by sorcs or wizards. The chance that the char will deviate from the expected range of power is higher if you try to defeat randomness by increasing his spell selection. The flipside, introducing more options for the sorc to control his spells pushes you back to the status quo, where he could just pick them in the first place. I don't think a DM should contemplate anything like this without the wholehearted support of the player. I ran a campaign once where the cleric of the god of "Luck" (to those in the know - forethought - to the common folks - luck) didn't get to choose his morning spells. Instead I picked them, and the player knew that mostly these picks were random. His job as a priest of that religion was to make it appear as if his random picks were the right tool for the job on that particular day. Ie "lucky" or "my god knew I'd need this". It did mean that once in a while I could give him a spell the party would need, but mostly it was a player creativity exercise, only to be attempted by a player who thought that kind of challenge would be fun. There were plenty of other divine options in the campaign for those who wanted a more normal experience.