Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Psynister 11-05-04, 09:38 PM	Hey guys, just looking for some suggestions here. What spells would you choose for an Eldritch Knigh who's focused mainly on melee combat (mainly because I've got more HP and better AC than the rest of the party)? A reason why might be helpful. Right now I'm a Ftr1/Wiz5/EK3 (so CL 7th). The rest of the group consists of a Rogue, Fighter (this one might actually have more HP/AC than me now), Cleric, and Bard (DMPC). Each of which is around lv 9, except for the bard who's only level 2 or so.
malykoth 11-05-04, 10:40 PM	I'd stay away from spells that effect enemies. They nearly always require a saving throw and are subject to spell resistance. Your caster level will be lower than a full spellcaster of your level, so you'll have a harder time getting past any SR. I'd focus on spells that augment you. Transformations and abjurations, mainly...but a few illusions, too. I'd even consider being a specialist, if possible...abjurer, diviner, or transmuter, with banned schools being enchantment and evocation. Anything that will aid your own martial skills. Avoid combat strategy that relies on the enemy failing a saving throw/resistance check. If you're looking for spells of 4th level or lower, here's what I'd try to have in my spell book (using the PHB only): cantrip: detect magic, mage hand, message. 1st: detect secret door, endure elements, expeditious retreat, mage armor, mount, protection from evil , shield, true strike. 2nd: alter self, bear's endurance, cat's grace, blur, darkvision, false life, invisibility, protection from arrows, resist energy, see invisibility. 3rd: fly, gaseous form, haste, keen edge, protection from energy, tongues. 4th: arcane eye, detect scrying, dimension door, invisibility (greater), leomund's secure shelter, polymorph, remove curse, stoneskin. If I am correct, none of these require that the enemy roll poorly. When you cast them, you can be nearly certain (barring a DM surprise) that they will do exactly what you want them to, every time. Fly, especially, is a staple in our games...get it as soon as possible.
Lord Psynister 11-05-04, 10:58 PM	I'm playing a Dwarf (for RP reasons), so darkvision doesn't do me much good. Also, I've never seen anyone even seriously consider taking Protection from Arrows...you really think it's worth it?
malykoth 11-05-04, 11:21 PM	I'm playing a Dwarf (for RP reasons), so darkvision doesn't do me much good. Also, I've never seen anyone even seriously consider taking Protection from Arrows...you really think it's worth it? Only if you expect to encounter enemies with a lot of arrows. Like I said, these are spells I'd want in my spell book, not necessarily in my "standard" memorization list. The strength of the wizard is being able to prepare himself for a variety of obstacles that may arise. No sense having water breathing memorized if you know your going to a desert (sorry if this seems elementary, but I think its better then the advice their giving in the "Character Class" articles). ;)
Lord Psynister 11-05-04, 11:28 PM	What about spells for higher levels? Level 9 is where I'm at right now. What would you suggest for spell lvs 5-9?
malykoth 11-05-04, 11:48 PM	Well, let's see: 5th: break enchantment, rary's telepathic bond, teleport, transmute mud to rock, transmute rock to mud, wall of stone. 6th: analyze dweomer, antimagic field, disintegrate, tenser's transformation, true seeing, wall of iron. 7th: arcane sight (greater), ethereal jaunt, plane shift, reverse gravity, spell turning, teleport (greater). 8th: moment of prescience, mind blank. 9th: foresight, mordenkainen's disjunction, shapechange, time stop. One of the few exceptions to my no save/no SR rule is disintegrate: it totally destroys it's target if it works, and even with a successful save it does damage...no energy resistance against this! The only problem is it must overcome spell resistance. Sorry if I seem paranoid about that, but in my games, if a target creature has a 10% chance of making its spell resistance, it actually seems to make that roll like 60% to 80% of the time. Unless I have the spell resistance, of course...then it works like 1% of the time! :pbbbtt:
malykoth 11-05-04, 11:49 PM	Other than the PHB, are you allowed spells from other sources?
Lord Psynister 11-05-04, 11:59 PM	Yeah, as far as I know, we can choose spells from any (official) source as long as we can get our hands on a copy of it.
malykoth 11-06-04, 12:09 AM	And what do you already have? Books, I mean...
fractal 11-06-04, 02:01 AM	I don't have too many suggestions to offer about spells (the ones already listed look good to me). However, as far as feats go, Arcane Strike and Practiced Spellcaster are both really good for a melee Eldritch Knight.
Lord Psynister 11-06-04, 09:52 AM	We're playing 3.5, though we can still use stuff from 3.0 so long as it hasn't been revised. But, these are the books that I have: (I don't know offhand what the other guys have) 3.5 Core Books Magic of Faerun Masters of the wild defenders of the faith faiths and pantheons lords of darkness monsters of faerun song and silence sword and fist tome and blood Note: I don't think all of these have spells/feats in them, I'm just going down my list of what all I've got. Fractal: Which books are Arcane Strike and Practiced Spellcaster found in? Or, if you can say, what do they do?
Ashenai 11-06-04, 10:00 AM	Okay, first of all, a bit of min/max. Definitely take a level of Spellsword (Complete Warrior), if you can. +1 BAB, +1 spellcasting level, and a free 10% ignore arcane failure chance. There's no drawback! Only take further levels if you're interested in the Sperllsword path, though. Secondly, if you can get your hands on the Miniatures Handbook, consider going Havoc Mage. They can be incredible front-liners, if done right. Also: True Strike! If you're a Havoc Mage, this is powerful beyond belief. If not, it's still good. Cast this, then Power Attack for your full BAB. Carnage!
malykoth 11-06-04, 10:01 AM	Hmmm...most of the content in these books has indeed been revised. The Arcane Stike feat is in the Complete Warrior, and allows you to sacrifice a spell to gain a +1 to attack and +1d4 (per level of spell sacrificed) to damage on melee attacks for 1 round. I don't recall what book Practiced Spellcaster is in, but it looks like they're putting it in Complete Arcane as well. It allows a caster to cast spells (for one of his spellcasting classes) as if he were 4 levels higher. Just level variable effects, mind you...not spells per day or higher level spells. You can find it in the Complete Arcane excerpt article on the main page of this site. ;)
malykoth 11-06-04, 10:10 AM	Okay, first of all, a bit of min/max. Definitely take a level of Spellsword (Complete Warrior), if you can. +1 BAB, +1 spellcasting level, and a free 10% ignore arcane failure chance. There's no drawback! Only take further levels if you're interested in the Sperllsword path, though. I realize this may be more appropriate for the Character Build forum, but if you take 10 levels of Spellsword, you can wear battle plate armor (from Races of Stone) with no chance of spell failure...as long as you make it out of mithril and get it enhanced with the +1 Twilight enhancement (ignore 10% arcane spell failure: Book of Exalted Deeds). This would give you +9 armor! :D
Ashenai 11-06-04, 10:14 AM	I realize this may be more appropriate for the Character Build forum, but if you take 10 levels of Spellsword, you can wear battle plate armor (from Races of Stone) with no chance of spell failure...as long as you make it out of mithril and get it enhanced with the +1 Twilight enhancement (ignore 10% arcane spell failure: Book of Exalted Deeds). This would give you +9 armor! :D ... and you get to lose 5 (five!) caster levels. I don't think it's worth it.
malykoth 11-06-04, 10:17 AM	... and you get to lose 5 (five!) caster levels. I don't think it's worth it. Sure...if you're going to be a spellcaster alone it indeed wouldn't be worth it. I believe the thread was for a fighter/wizard, no? 10 levels of Spellsword also give you a +10 to your BAB, and great Fortitude and Will saves.
Doomhawk 11-06-04, 11:34 AM	Yeah, but you'll suck as a spellcaster, at which point you might as well have just been a straight fighter, yes? If you're going to take 10 levels of Spellsword for the reduced ASF, why not just take 10 levels of Eldritch Knight instead, and Still all your spells? The extra 4 caster levels means you'll be casting higher level spells even though all your spells are taking up a slot 1 level higher, and can wear any armor and carry a tower shield and still never lose a spell to ASF. Arcane Strike and Practiced Spellcaster are both HUGE boons to a Fighter/Mage. Grab Quicken Spell as soon as you can cast 5th-level spells. Quickened True Strike is great if you can combine it with Power Attack and a two-handed weapon. I'd also advise the spell Fire Shield if you're going to be a melee fighter - it can protect you from common elemental attacks, and also does damage whenever you get hit.
malykoth 11-06-04, 11:42 AM	Look, I'm not here to argue the merits of wizards vs fighters vs wizard/fighters vs etc. ... I was merely offering an option that may have been overlooked. Like I said, this isn't the Character Build forum. Personally, I think one can have a interesting, fun and (yes) unique character, still be "useful", and not be one of the four or five approved builds. On a side rant...that's why I got out of "Magic, the Gathering". Everyone was playing the same four or five decks...boring! ;)
Doomhawk 11-06-04, 02:08 PM	You're right, Malykoth. Sorry for jumping all over you. If you're aiming for the more fighty side of a fighter/wizard, the Spellsword is a great choice - the high Will save will protect you from the nastiest spells, and Channel Spell combines very nicely with a melee fighter. The Spellsword also gets more HP than an Eldritch Knight. When making your choice between these two PrC's, weigh the benefits of the Spellsword (listed above) against the Eldritch Knight (4 extra caster levels). Either way, a 1-level dip into Spellsword is usually worth it. Oh, and a disclaimer: We're referring to the Spellsword as it appears in Complete Warrior, not the one in Tome and Blood. The Tome and Blood one is scarcely worth taking; I think someone once proved that simply taking levels of fighter and wizard left you better off in almost every way.
isaac anthony 11-06-04, 03:06 PM	ALSO, take another level of fighter. You get another feat at 2nd level (totally worth it in my opinion).
fractal 11-07-04, 04:50 AM	ALSO, take another level of fighter. You get another feat at 2nd level (totally worth it in my opinion). Probably better off taking 3 levels of Spellsword, if the second level of Fighter is seriously being considered. The first level of Spellsword has 2 good saves, a caster level, full BAB, and 10% Arcane spell failure reduction, the second level is like the second Fighter level with a d8 HD and a good Will save, and the third level gives another caster level and 5% more reduction to ASF. What's not to like? The 4th level of Spellsword is then also tempting, you lose another caster level, but you do get 3 uses of Channel Spell (and access to level 5 Spellsword, which again has +1 BAB and a caster level, if you need it). As has already been noted, Arcane Strike is from Complete Warrior, Practiced Spellcaster is from Complete Divine.
Lord Psynister 11-08-04, 11:50 AM	I don't want to be losing too many caster levels, so I don't think I would take more than 1 level of Spellsword. Practiced Spellcaster looks like it would be worth taking though. It would make it a little easier to go ahead and take another fighter level, and/or a second level of Spellsword (or 3rd, if I didn't take Ftr 2). Thanks for your help so far guys, it's given quite a bit to think about for my character. What do you think? Ftr 1/Wiz 5/ EK 3/ ??? I don't want to loose too many caster levels, as I'm quite certain I'm going to need them. EK seems rather...plain, even though it's a good class, there's not a whole lot of flavor to it. I don't have all the info on hand for Spellsword, so I might have to scrounge up a copy of Complete Warrior from somewhere to find out what all it does and at which levels.
Vharuck 11-08-04, 12:08 PM	Simbul's Spell Matrix (5th) Cast quickened spells while in combat, then full attack. I'd stick in four True Strikes maybe, though it can hold up to level 3 spells. Warning! You take 1d6 unhealable damage for each spell stored (up to four) until the matrix is gone, the material component costs 500 gp, and it will only last an hour and a half for a 9th level caster (10 min/lvl). Lutzaen's Frequent Jaunt Multi-use Dimension Door, with warp as a move action. Warp to spellcasters and proceed to unload all hell.
Doomhawk 11-08-04, 06:25 PM	It may seem slightly unexciting, but I'd advise just going straight through Eldritch Knight. [If you can get Complete Warrior, grab at least single level of Spellsword too.] The spellcasting you get from Eldritch Knight will almost certainly make up for any "nifty" class features you might otherwise obtain.
wonlee76 11-08-04, 06:52 PM	Here are some spells from outside books I really like for my melee/wizard types. Dragonskin (Draconomican): Natural Armor boost + energy resistance in one package. Draconic Might (or something like that) (Draconomican): A nice buff spell that improves strength and con and gives some other things I think. More friendly for sorcerors but definitely useable for a fighter/wizard. Improved Blink (Unapproachable East): Nice defensive utility spell and worth the slightly higher spell level then regular Blink. Ghostform (Tome & Blood): At that level, its just a great spell to have. The Libris Mortis version of the spell increases it to 8th level. So I guess depending on whether you play 3.0 or 3.5 rules your DM may change the spell level on this spell. Firebrand (I think this one is in Magic of Faerun but I may be mistaken): Nice area of affect offensive spell for the right situation and the ability to control the area of affect of the spell. In the core books, even with SR being a potential problem I like to take spells with no saves like Ray of Enfeeblement, Scorching Ray, Vampiric Touch and Enervation. With the higher BAB from Eldritch Knight, those range touch attacks should be a cinch to connect with and no saves allowed. Only thing you would need to worry about is SR which can be bumped up through Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Divine), Improved Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration. I also like spells like Evard's Black Tentacles and Melf's Acid Arrow as a way to get by SR (I think SR doesn't apply to Black Tentacles but I may be mistaken about that). There are a handful of conjuration type of spells out there that does direct damage and SR does not apply to them. Shapechange and Polymorph are nice higher level spells to have for the sheer versatility contained in those spells. Need to fly, polymorph into something with wings, need to swim, polymorph into something that can swim, etc.
shadow mage 11-08-04, 07:14 PM	Conveniently enough I have a thread all about these sorta characters, one section of which details a good many spells (soon to be updated too). You should check it out. One question though, may I ask why wizard instead of sorcerer?
beaver1024 11-08-04, 10:12 PM	There's a thread in the character optimisation board called the gish thread. Gish is a short form for the fighter/mage archetype (although done with combinations of different classes and PrCs).
Doomhawk 11-08-04, 11:17 PM	Sorta OT, but what the heck does gish mean? I mean, I know it's a fighter/mage build. But where did the word gish come from?
shadow mage 11-08-04, 11:45 PM	Short and sweet: It's a githyanki term for "specialist", otherwise a warrior who was self-supported by arcane magic. More fighter than mage but clearly a good deal of both. Dunno who made it popular amongst the boards, but it's a helluva lot shorter than mage/warrior (and sounds sillier).
Stormkahn 11-09-04, 04:14 AM	I'd def look into Mirror Image, Blink, Displacement and Greater Invis to mitigate shoddy AC. If you can, use a Ghost Touch weapon with Blink, it's the better of the 3 later spells but also give you a 20% miss chance. Blink and Image have saved me from certain death almost every week..... gl ;)
Lord Psynister 11-10-04, 07:33 PM	I chose wizard over sorcerer because of the extra level it takes for the sorcerer to get access to spell, and for the small amount of spells that they have access to. Originally, I was going to be the only arcane caster in the group, that is, until our rogue decided to take up arcane trickster as her focus. Granted, it may have been a bit better to have the increased number of spells, as well as they ability to cast whatever I needed whenever I needed it, but the wizard fit much better. Also, we're playing a high magic game, where I can fully utilize the wizard's ability to pick up whatever spells he wants. Right now, I'm a Ftr 1/ Wiz 5/ EK 5, and I'm probably going to level up again here in about an our or so. I'd like to mention first off that Transmute Rock to Mud just saved my party from a massive fight in which we completely slaughtered a group of 40 opponents that would have otherwise torn quite a massive hole in the party. And that's just one instance where the advice here has already paid off. So, my thanks to those who've helped me here. I'd really like to go ahead and take a level (or 4) in Spellsword, but I can't find a copy of the Complete Warrior, so I don't have any clue about the specifics of the class, nor the prereqs for it. There wouldn't happen to be a copy of that I can find online, would there?
shadow mage 11-10-04, 07:58 PM	First, if you take only four levels of spellsword then shame on you. Take that fifth level, it's worth it. :D Second, might I suggest (especially as a wizard) preparing one or two empowered vampiric touch's and channeling them is a sure way to hurt an enemy. Arcane Strike and Power Attack synergize VERY well, as do Arcane Strike and the TWF tree, so if you want more melee damage those are solid routes to go. If you want more spells though, definitely sleet storm. That is just a mean spell, no save or SR, and when channeled via Channel Spell it becomes wicked indeed! (though that use is currently under debate in my gish thread...) Another spell to highly consider is, ASAP, polymorph. If you can turn into a War Troll and have a reach weapon, that's a lot of melee potential with only one spell, and you still keep your mental scores/abilities so spellcasting is still very much possible. Imagine, a wall of fire and behind it a war troll with a ring of elemental resistance acid waiting... Haste and slow are excellent choices too, and the former especially works nicely with the Arcane Strike/Power Attack combo I mentioned earlier.
RaspK FOG 11-10-04, 08:40 PM	I would go with the following combo: Greater Magic Weapon (extended) Blur (persistent) Polymorph Tenser's Transformation
shadow mage 11-10-04, 09:39 PM	I would go with the following combo: Greater Magic Weapon (extended) Blur (persistent) Polymorph Tenser's Transformation Four rounds (two minimum) to prepare for combat that lasts on average a 3-5 rounds?
RaspK FOG 11-11-04, 10:49 PM	Greater Magic Weapon lasts 1 hour per level; my suggestion is you extend it. Cast Blur as a Persistent Spell (official in both 3e and 3.5e), which makes the spell last 24 hours. Finally cast Polymorph if you wish for 1 hour per level (this step is optional). Then cast Tenser's Transformation when the time comes! :D - NOTE - You have to gain a few levels before you pull this trick, but TT is a must: BAB equal to your HD, plus all the other goodies that come with it!
SgtHulka 11-12-04, 09:53 AM	I'm surprised no one has mentioned Alter Self. Its duration is long enough (10 min/level) that you don't have to still it if you just have a *little* bit of preperation (cast it, don your armor, then enter the dungeon). Scribe a few scrolls of stilled Alter Self to use if and when it wears off/is dispelled. Troglodyte form gains you the multi-attack bonus feat and +6 natural armor, which stacks with the armor of your choice.
Ashenai 11-29-04, 05:10 AM	When building Eldritch Knights, a common mistake is to go Fighter 1/Wizard 5, then move straight into EK. Consider this: why aren't you taking the 6th level of Wizard? It grants a spellcasting level and a BAB, just like one of the "good" levels of EK!. This, incidentally, is why Sorcerer Eldritch Knights don't suck. You'll want to get that 6th level anyway, so it doesn't matter much that the Sorcerer meets the requirements at level 6, while the Wizard meets them at level 5.