Best Substitute Levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best Substitute Levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
legowarrior
12-04-05, 07:59 PM I don't have my books in front of me, but I'm curious what everyone thinks some of the best substitute levels are, and for what races.
So far, I really like the Gnome Illusionist, and Bards ones, but I found that the substitute levels for the Halflings, (Rogues, Monks and Druids) to be rather plain and not very helpful in many cases.

What's everyone else's opinion on Substitute Levels. Should they even be allowed? Are they better then the Paragon Classes?
Quirriff
12-04-05, 08:32 PM The Dwarven Fighter (level 1), I found is danm powerful, as is the Dwarven Cleric.
Spellskin
12-04-05, 08:39 PM The Elven Wizard (level 1) is quite nice as well. the other two are not that great. I recall the third level doubling the bonus gained from your familiar *and quite frankly, it's not that interresting unless you have the Familiars from Dragon, wich I don't have access too. Could someone please PM me where I could find those? I've seen them here somewhere before...* I don't even recall the last ability...

The first level grants an additional spell per day at your highest spell level, in exchange you're barred from multi-classing. I think you also get an additional spell in your spellbook each level... I'm not so sure on that one, don't have Races of the Wild on me...
Wharin
12-04-05, 08:46 PM In Champions of Valor, which is chockfull of (primarily non-race related) substitution levels, there are a number of really awesome ones. Lion Legionaire (Paladin) is so far my personal favorite. Its just brutal.
Surreal
12-04-05, 10:19 PM Here a thread with a lot of discussion on the subject: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=414760

Personally, I like:
- Changeling rogue - 1st and 3rd, you gain so much and lose so little
- Half-Orc Paladin - 1st level is like gaining rage; grab a few levels of Half-Orc Paragon and you're good to go
glanvili
12-05-05, 08:49 PM my favorite is probably the changeling wizard. mostly for the morphic familiar.
Blaque
12-05-05, 11:19 PM Shifter Druid seems to be pretty popular. Mainly the 1st-level exchanging of your familiar for a totem spirit, which make syou an awesome summoner.

Warforged fighter gives you a nice hd, and stuff, but not too great on what you get instead fo spells. People think that the 4th and 5th level Artificer substitutions for that race are quite nice though. (sacrafice hommunculli to make better weaponry and armor stuff, sacrifce retained essence for weapon famliar).

Personally, I'm a fan of the kalashtar soulknife for the 1st-level effect (get something other then a useless feat since you already have a pp reserve), and getting a good-aligned mind blade.

Umm, and stuff.
Banebringer
12-05-05, 11:54 PM Skarn Monk: Skarns gain amazing damage bonuses with their arm spikes this way, which can then further be enhanced by their racial prestige classes.
Wilds
12-06-05, 12:20 AM Where are the Shifter substitution levels? I can not seem to find them
klode_me
12-06-05, 12:56 AM Where are the Shifter substitution levels? I can not seem to find them

RoE
farfairer
12-06-05, 01:43 AM The Elven Wizard (level 1) is quite nice as well. the other two are not that great. I recall the third level doubling the bonus gained from your familiar *and quite frankly, it's not that interresting unless you have the Familiars from Dragon, wich I don't have access too. Could someone please PM me where I could find those? I've seen them here somewhere before...* I don't even recall the last ability...

The first level grants an additional spell per day at your highest spell level, in exchange you're barred from multi-classing. I think you also get an additional spell in your spellbook each level... I'm not so sure on that one, don't have Races of the Wild on me...

I play an Elven Wizard and the first level does not bar you from multiclassing in any way. It bars you from ever having a prohibited school. Which means you can't be an Incatatrix if you take the 1st Elven Wizard level. The benefit is 1 extra spell known per level and 1 extra spell of your highest level each day.

I also like Halfling Druid. I actually think that the 1st level hafling druid ability is fairly broken. The spells you gain are absolutely amazing. The 5th level ability (second substitution level) seems almost more a penalty than a benefit... and I don't remember the last level.

Half Orc paladin is also very cool, and I made a character (haven't played him yet) who will have both the 1st and 6th level Orc paladin substitution levels and the 3nd, 4rd and 5th level Paladin of Nobanion substitution levels (Races of Destiny and Champions of Valor). The combination is really, really cool. I loose Smite for Divine Rage (and a d12 HP), Aura of courage for a flaming mane (injurs evil people that touch me or my weapon), turn undead for Wild Attack (1 extra attack per round for the durration), special mount for sumonable wings, and remove desease for remove fatigue. A very different kind of Paladin.
Wharin
12-06-05, 08:27 AM Half Orc paladin is also very cool, and I made a character (haven't played him yet) who will have both the 1st and 6th level Orc paladin substitution levels and the 3nd, 4rd and 5th level Paladin of Nobanion substitution levels (Races of Destiny and Champions of Valor). The combination is really, really cool. I loose Smite for Divine Rage (and a d12 HP), Aura of courage for a flaming mane (injurs evil people that touch me or my weapon), turn undead for Wild Attack (1 extra attack per round for the durration), special mount for sumonable wings, and remove desease for remove fatigue. A very different kind of Paladin.

:bow:

Wow, yeah, that totally puts a new spin on Paladin. I am going to have to check that out for myself. That has some real potential for a futre character for me.
BadCatMan
12-06-05, 08:59 AM I quite enjoyed taking Dwarf Fighter 1. My character's weapons went:

* waraxe (sold)
* +1 vorpal* battleaxe (x2!)
* unknown magic waraxe (rusted)
* +1 vorpal battleaxe (other was eaten)
* +1 vorpal battleaxe (for a long time)
* +2 greataxe with x2 strength to damage (cursed, stole health, eventually dumped it, didn't trust it)
* +1 vorpal battleaxe

With a handaxe and a few throwing axes in backup. Not once did I ever have to regret taking a weapon focus feat and having it go to waste. :)

Level 4 didn't look so great - I'd rather become better at fighting everything else better than just low-level orcs and goblinoids. Level 8 is nice for more AC, great for Defenders and with Heavy Armour Optimisation.

* Never vorped though. :(

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
legowarrior 12-04-05, 07:59 PM	I don't have my books in front of me, but I'm curious what everyone thinks some of the best substitute levels are, and for what races. So far, I really like the Gnome Illusionist, and Bards ones, but I found that the substitute levels for the Halflings, (Rogues, Monks and Druids) to be rather plain and not very helpful in many cases. What's everyone else's opinion on Substitute Levels. Should they even be allowed? Are they better then the Paragon Classes?
Quirriff 12-04-05, 08:32 PM	The Dwarven Fighter (level 1), I found is danm powerful, as is the Dwarven Cleric.
Spellskin 12-04-05, 08:39 PM	The Elven Wizard (level 1) is quite nice as well. the other two are not that great. I recall the third level doubling the bonus gained from your familiar and quite frankly, it's not that interresting unless you have the Familiars from Dragon, wich I don't have access too. Could someone please PM me where I could find those? I've seen them here somewhere before... I don't even recall the last ability... The first level grants an additional spell per day at your highest spell level, in exchange you're barred from multi-classing. I think you also get an additional spell in your spellbook each level... I'm not so sure on that one, don't have Races of the Wild on me...
Wharin 12-04-05, 08:46 PM	In Champions of Valor, which is chockfull of (primarily non-race related) substitution levels, there are a number of really awesome ones. Lion Legionaire (Paladin) is so far my personal favorite. Its just brutal.
Surreal 12-04-05, 10:19 PM	Here a thread with a lot of discussion on the subject: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=414760 Personally, I like: - Changeling rogue - 1st and 3rd, you gain so much and lose so little - Half-Orc Paladin - 1st level is like gaining rage; grab a few levels of Half-Orc Paragon and you're good to go
glanvili 12-05-05, 08:49 PM	my favorite is probably the changeling wizard. mostly for the morphic familiar.
Blaque 12-05-05, 11:19 PM	Shifter Druid seems to be pretty popular. Mainly the 1st-level exchanging of your familiar for a totem spirit, which make syou an awesome summoner. Warforged fighter gives you a nice hd, and stuff, but not too great on what you get instead fo spells. People think that the 4th and 5th level Artificer substitutions for that race are quite nice though. (sacrafice hommunculli to make better weaponry and armor stuff, sacrifce retained essence for weapon famliar). Personally, I'm a fan of the kalashtar soulknife for the 1st-level effect (get something other then a useless feat since you already have a pp reserve), and getting a good-aligned mind blade. Umm, and stuff.
Banebringer 12-05-05, 11:54 PM	Skarn Monk: Skarns gain amazing damage bonuses with their arm spikes this way, which can then further be enhanced by their racial prestige classes.
Wilds 12-06-05, 12:20 AM	Where are the Shifter substitution levels? I can not seem to find them
klode_me 12-06-05, 12:56 AM	Where are the Shifter substitution levels? I can not seem to find them RoE
farfairer 12-06-05, 01:43 AM	The Elven Wizard (level 1) is quite nice as well. the other two are not that great. I recall the third level doubling the bonus gained from your familiar and quite frankly, it's not that interresting unless you have the Familiars from Dragon, wich I don't have access too. Could someone please PM me where I could find those? I've seen them here somewhere before... I don't even recall the last ability... The first level grants an additional spell per day at your highest spell level, in exchange you're barred from multi-classing. I think you also get an additional spell in your spellbook each level... I'm not so sure on that one, don't have Races of the Wild on me... I play an Elven Wizard and the first level does not bar you from multiclassing in any way. It bars you from ever having a prohibited school. Which means you can't be an Incatatrix if you take the 1st Elven Wizard level. The benefit is 1 extra spell known per level and 1 extra spell of your highest level each day. I also like Halfling Druid. I actually think that the 1st level hafling druid ability is fairly broken. The spells you gain are absolutely amazing. The 5th level ability (second substitution level) seems almost more a penalty than a benefit... and I don't remember the last level. Half Orc paladin is also very cool, and I made a character (haven't played him yet) who will have both the 1st and 6th level Orc paladin substitution levels and the 3nd, 4rd and 5th level Paladin of Nobanion substitution levels (Races of Destiny and Champions of Valor). The combination is really, really cool. I loose Smite for Divine Rage (and a d12 HP), Aura of courage for a flaming mane (injurs evil people that touch me or my weapon), turn undead for Wild Attack (1 extra attack per round for the durration), special mount for sumonable wings, and remove desease for remove fatigue. A very different kind of Paladin.
Wharin 12-06-05, 08:27 AM	Half Orc paladin is also very cool, and I made a character (haven't played him yet) who will have both the 1st and 6th level Orc paladin substitution levels and the 3nd, 4rd and 5th level Paladin of Nobanion substitution levels (Races of Destiny and Champions of Valor). The combination is really, really cool. I loose Smite for Divine Rage (and a d12 HP), Aura of courage for a flaming mane (injurs evil people that touch me or my weapon), turn undead for Wild Attack (1 extra attack per round for the durration), special mount for sumonable wings, and remove desease for remove fatigue. A very different kind of Paladin. :bow: Wow, yeah, that totally puts a new spin on Paladin. I am going to have to check that out for myself. That has some real potential for a futre character for me.
BadCatMan 12-06-05, 08:59 AM	I quite enjoyed taking Dwarf Fighter 1. My character's weapons went: * waraxe (sold) * +1 vorpal* battleaxe (x2!) * unknown magic waraxe (rusted) * +1 vorpal battleaxe (other was eaten) * +1 vorpal battleaxe (for a long time) * +2 greataxe with x2 strength to damage (cursed, stole health, eventually dumped it, didn't trust it) * +1 vorpal battleaxe With a handaxe and a few throwing axes in backup. Not once did I ever have to regret taking a weapon focus feat and having it go to waste. :) Level 4 didn't look so great - I'd rather become better at fighting everything else better than just low-level orcs and goblinoids. Level 8 is nice for more AC, great for Defenders and with Heavy Armour Optimisation. * Never vorped though. :(