Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xabre 01-20-06, 03:16 PM	Besides Mage Armor? I'm about to start a 3rd level sorcerer, and I can't think of a good way to boost his defenses. I have a 16 dex and Draconic Skin, but I also have a -1 from the Agressive feat, leaving me with a 13 AC. Shield can raise this to 17, and I have 2500 gp, which means I could buy either a Ring of Protection or Bracers of Armor, either one giving me +1... any thoughts?
Galadheon 01-20-06, 03:40 PM	Buy the fighter a drink at the local bar. Then you'll have his AC and HP's to protect you. Seriously though, i'd buy the ROP or Bracers to help you out till you get more $$ or better spells to protect you.
Xabre 01-20-06, 03:51 PM	Buy the fighter a drink at the local bar. Then you'll have his AC and HP's to protect you. Seriously though, i'd buy the ROP or Bracers to help you out till you get more $$ or better spells to protect you. Heh. We're a three person party, and no fighter. I could try that with the War cleric who's our acting tank... I've been considering an Eternal Wand of Mage Armor or something similiar... for 1200 I could have something that gives me 3 hrs of Mage Armor a day. (technically, for 2000 the charts say that I could have continuous Mage Armor, but that contradicts the cost of Bracers of Armor...)
FriendlyBiscuit 01-20-06, 06:37 PM	Summon stuff. Make it stand between you and things that don't like you.
Tlazcotl 01-20-06, 07:03 PM	You are correct to assume that your sorcerer will not stand for long against direct assault, but there are a few things to consider that may help him/her out besides AC-boosts. Sometimes the best way to reduce damage is to reduce the probability of you taking it in the first place. My low level sorcerers usually invest in invisibility early on, or blur, mirror image, etc. You really shouldn't have to worry about opponents that can see through illusions at low level; (if so, then your DM probably needs a talking to). Some basic tactics will usually see you through most encounters. A good low level combination is shield and mage armor. You should be looking at a 17 AC at least. If you don't want to depend on spells for most of your defense, then all I can tell you is don't play a sorcerer. Magic items can always help, but shouldn't be depended upon too much; they can be stolen, negated, or (shiver) disjoined. And walking into an area of dead or anti-magic will make them useless altogether.
bolobaby 01-20-06, 07:33 PM	Defend your sorcerer with summoning spells. Put critters between you and the bad guys - that's your best defense.
solbergb 01-20-06, 07:38 PM	Generally your best defense as a low level sorc is to stay the hell out of combat. At level 3, I'm assuming you have magic missile, which will be your main combat contribution aside from scrolls. Seriously, I find that sorcerers with "Defenses" get false confidence and don't show enough respect for the enemy. 1. Position yourself in the middle of the party, with friends blocking charge lanes. This is more challenging with a 3 person party. My recommendation is to buy a couple riding dogs trained for fighting to give you a bit more of a buffer. They'll hold you until level 5-6 where you start to have some real defenses. 2. When a melee enemy shows up, move away from them every round (while zapping them with spells of course) 3. When a ranged enemy shows up, get behind cover and go prone (adds +8 to your armor class right there). 4. If mixed ranged and melee, move away and then go prone under cover 5. If you find yourself in melee, use a withdraw action to get away, and do so in such a way that no enemy has a charge lane on you. 6. Consider a mount. If you have a hand free, you can control it without a ride check. If the mount doesn't move further than 1x its move, no concentration check either. Plus if it is war trained, it can beat up any attacker while you dismount on the far side and use it to block. 7. Don't forget your familiar. They tend to be much better at noticing bad guys than you (decent spot/listen, some have blindsense or scent). Be aware of its abilities and use them aggressively when DM calls for spot checks. Flying familiars belong in the air when on the road, looking for ambushers who have cover from you...but not from the air. Spotting the bad guy first = you don't get ambushed and you can choose the engagement range. If I knew your spells, I could give better advice, but I don't really think a sorc should bother with defensive spells until level 5 (when he can do the hourly spells 24x7 and has enough offense, mobility and utility spells to cover a variety of challenges). I favor False Life over the other options, since it works on pretty much everything and lasts all day, without the false confidence that mage armor/shield/alter self seems to give. However if your party has others in it that can use mage armor, you may want that right now or at level 5. Or you might swap a spell like color spray for it at L6. Low level scrolls also help: 1. obscuring mist blocks gaze attacks, sneak attacks and targeted spells, plus makes ranged combat a blind thing. It's the best 25gp defense in the game. 2, Silent Image. If fog is too annoying, how about a nice illusory wall? Until interacted with, there is no save. This is a very flexible spell that has more uses than just defense. 3. mage armor, shield, prot evil work ok on scrolls...if you cast all 3 before a fight, that's +8 to your AC, +10 vs evil. I don't recommend them as spells known. 4. expeditious retreat - movement helps with all of the above tactics, but note that getting a scroll and reading it in combat means you're rooted to the ground for a round. You need to want to run for several rounds for this to actually pay off. 5. Tanglefoot bag. Ok, not a scroll, but similar in cost. This slows enemy movements. Slowing movements = not running up to you and hitting you. 6. Potion of clw. Don't leave home without it, in case you need to revive somebody, or be revived by a non-cleric. Friends don't let friends bleed out. I do NOT recommend spending low level cash on ring of protection or bracers of defense. Spend the cash on scrolls, until you have enough scrolls to fight 4 fights a day in conjunction with your spell slots (L1 scrolls are useful and cheap, L2 scrolls are also useful but expensive enough that you want key stoppers that do stuff independent of spell DC and that always work when you need them, eg: command undead, glitterdust, web, pyrotechnics). Probably the best 1000gp permanent item you can buy is a cloak of resistance+1. The problem is that armor class is way too expensive compared to your total cash for the benefit it provides. For 3000gp (ring+1, bracers+1) the fighter is getting fullplate+1 and shield+1, and has masterwork spikes on the fullplate to boot. So you get 2AC, and a fighter spending same cash gets 12AC - give it up - someday you'll have a decent AC, but not at level 3 without nerfing your offense and wasting combat actions casting defensive spells instead of helping. The other problem with high AC sorcerers is that they don't have enough hitpoints when monsters get lucky - so even if you do keep mage armor up 24x7, cast shield in combat instead of attacking, that troll will still rip you in half a good percentage of the time, where a fighter would just be badly wounded. Spending on scrolls (or maybe L1 wand of something you use a lot) you are able to contribute with magic every round, instead of being a crappy archer with crossbow half the time. More potence magically = monsters dead sooner = less rounds you NEED defense. You get a lot more "bang" out of 3000gp spent on scrolls than spent on two AC items. These concepts should get you to level 4. Level 4, you may want a spell that serves as offense and defense. Glitterdust (by blinding the enemy) is one of the best, since it prevents them from doing ranged combat to you, slows their movement, takes away AOO's and makes it easier for your other 2 party members to do their jobs. Web doesn't always work, but when it does it is guaranteed to slow movement and it also provides cover, which can be useful. If one of your two companions is a rogue, invisibility might serve as both offense and defense and utility. (it helps the rogue do sneak damage, it helps him scout and it helps you stay alive) Stay away from scorching ray until level 7. It is a temptation and a trap before then...magic missile is simply better (does a touch less damage, but never misses...low level scorching rays miss a lot)
LassiterKeshell 01-20-06, 07:45 PM	Cover and Concealment. Stay 10 ft away from your highest AC guy. Any ranged attacks through his/her space give you +4 AC.
Seeker of Undeath 01-20-06, 07:57 PM	A 3rd-level sorcerer, eh? I'm somewhat fond of Grease, Burning Hands, and Shield myself. Low-level NPC mages love magic missile, and that's bad for you. Shield helps out with that and boosts your AC. Grease is a wonderful tactical spell in itself, and Burning Hands turns it into a nice impromptu wall of fire. Later on I'd dump Burning Hands for something else, but that's a pretty good start I think. As for Bracers of Armor or Ring of Protection... I like the ring more due to the type of bonus it offers, but at level 3 I'll recommend that you conserve your money however you see fit.
Xabre 01-20-06, 07:59 PM	Since someone asked... My stats are as follows: 11 Str, 16 Dex, 13 Con, 14 Int, 13 Wis, 20 Cha. My feats are Draconic Heritage, Draconic Skin, Draconic Toughness, Draconic Resistance and Draconic Power. I will start the game with a +1 Natural Armor, Fire Resistance 15, and 10 additional hit points. Before you ask, yes, I used flaws. I might leave Draconic Resistance for a higher level and take Draconic Claws, so that I don't need to pay for a weapon, but I really don't want to be in combat, so that's a feat I'd only be taking to get more hit points and resistances. I don't have a familiar, because I'm using the Dragonblood Sorcerer class which trades a familiar for the Draconic Heritage feat, and +2 to Know: Arcana. I'm a Dragonborn with Aspect of Mind, so I have basic elven immunities, +2 to Spot/Listen/Search, darkvision and lowlight. My Draconic Heritage is Gold, so my Draconic Power is based around fire. I wanted a character who wasn't very generic, so I tried avoiding some of the cliche spells. We haven't played yet, so my spell list can change, however. Currently, these are my spell choices: Read Magic, Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Ghost Sound, Acid Splash Lesser Orb of Fire, Shield, Sleep I was considering picking up either a wand or eternal wand of mage armor, but because armor bonuses are the cheapest to buy, I wasn't going to invest a spell slot in mage armor to have it always useless. I'm a big fan of eternal wands, especially since they're fairly cheap, and I prefer reusable items, because when I ahve limited charges I'm always too frugal with their use. If I can live long enough to get to level 6, I won't need much more offense, because I'm going into Dragonheart Mage, so I get Draconic Breath.
Seeker of Undeath 01-20-06, 08:04 PM	About Dragonheart Mage... If you already had Draconic Breath when you entered the class, would it give you another Draconic feat instead? If that is the case I'd recommend dropping Draconic Skin for now and taking up Draconic Breath. Of course if that's not the case, I'd leave things about like you have them.
Xabre 01-20-06, 08:09 PM	I can ask my GM if he'd allow that trade off... because if I could do that, I wouldn't need any offensive spells (except for maybe magic missile or similiar to get around fire resistance). The class itself doesn't allow the trade, but that would be nice. btw, thanks everyone for all the help... this is being very educational.
Eital 01-20-06, 08:59 PM	Another thing, get yourself a short spear and a crossbow... for those times when you do not want to spend precious spells...
Mirikon 01-20-06, 09:25 PM	My advice for how to keep a low level sorc/wiz alive? Stay behind the fighters. If anything gets past the fighters, run like hell.
Hariman 01-20-06, 09:39 PM	Ray of enfeeblement and Cause Fear are two spells to consider. Ray of Enfeeblement can take any strength dependent enemy and reduce his attack and damage. There's even a chance to put them into a higher level of encumbrance. Cause Fear could make the big bad barbarian run like a little girl, so it could keep enemies away from you quite easily. I also second the advice to buy scrolls, wands and potions with the starting money instead of an AC boosting item. You'll get far more mileage out of a wand of Mage Armor than you will out of an item that adds a mere +1 to AC. Eital's advice on getting a shortspear and crossbow is also some advice to heed. Draconic Claws is a two edged sword. You have to be in melee range to use them. Since you start at third level, you've already got a point of BAB so you could easily draw a dagger or another weapon while you move to a better position. Above all else, don't stay in melee if you can help it. Withdraw to a better position and go from there.
KoboldMenace 01-21-06, 08:04 AM	Besides Mage Armor? Color spray, Shield, protection from evil, obscuring mist, grease, charm person, summon monster, glitterdust, web, fog cloud, protection from arrows, summon swarm, blur, invisibililty, mirror image, false life, and spider climb. I know I forgot some...
BW0222 01-21-06, 12:24 PM	Xabre, When you get second level spells... take mirror image. It will protect you from a lot of 'stray' attacks even at somewhat higher levels. You don't have a lot of spells known, so don't be on taking more than this for some time. However, your party is obviously on the smallish side and at lower-levels that can be big problems for someone without a hit points. So for the next couple of levels... a) War dog. Buy a riding dog and some leather barding. Inexpensive and definitely a more reliable defense than any current spells you have. Problem with most spells is that they don't last long while the dog can always be by your side. b) Hirelings, friends, associates. Put a few ranks into diplomacy and convince the party to hire someone to come along with you. Give her a small share of the treasure and keep them out of direct attacks. However, have one standing next to you with a longspear and some good armor. Even a warrior/1 or fighter/1 is sufficient to keep a bad guy from getting directly to you. c) Planning. Make sure that the party is on the same wave-length. Discuss things with them and come up with plans on keeping you alive. What do you do against archers, spell casters, etc. It can help reduce the chance of someone ending up right next to you. Also, look at having the cleric put some defensive spells up on you. Shield other is a good choice in many cases. d) Potions, scrolls. If you can purchase some good 1st or 2nd-level scrolls. Protection from evil (to keep back summoned stuff), shield, mirror image, levitate, etc. Even a few summon monster II, web, or other spells which you could use to keep folks back in a pinch. e) Alchemists fire and tangle foot bags. Might do in a pinch. f) Make yourself a less visible target. Disquise self, or just some different dress might make you look less like a spellcaster. Folks might not immediately target you, giving time for others to move into position. Wear a big holy symbol, a monks outfit, or a suit of fake leather armor and an empty rapier scabbard. In combats which only last five to ten rounds, even one free round before you start casting could be useful. g) Carry a longspear. It tends to reduce charging towards you and often helps keep them back 10' for a round. It also helps confuse them as to your class (above). h) Avoid spells which get you into trouble. Colorspray and burning hands might look like good spells, but at levels where they are even moderately effective, it requires insane risk on your part to use. Just having to cast defensively (so you can get a bunch) is tough enough. If they fail to drop folks, you end up next to three or four live nasties and you are definitely target #1. For now, avoid the lower level summoning spells also. The full round makes you a target and they tend not to last long enough. i) Smart play. It is impossible to go an entire campaign without stepping into a few unprepared situations, but try to reduce this number. Let your familiar do some scouting, if she is able to. Ask questions. Research the ruins. You have a small party without a front-line fighter, anything which can even the odds is a good thing. j) At 6th, consider leadership and taking a sturdy body-guard type fighter with you. Even with the -2 for the familiar, your charisma will likely let you get a 4th-level fighter-type next to you.
Hallavast 01-22-06, 08:09 PM	What do you mean "besides mage armor"? It should be all you need. I know its been said before but it needs to be harped upon. Mage armor lasts for 1 hour/ level. It is a spell that I use with every wizard or sorcerer I play. I feel naked without it... If you need a little extra AC for a particularly tough fight, then i'd go with shield (especially against annoying low level enemy casters...) With mage armor your ac is 17,and with shield it is 21....what more could you ask for on level 3?
Macrovore 01-22-06, 09:08 PM	when you get to a high enough level, take extend spell and cast an extended mage armor which lasts most of the day.
Hallavast 01-22-06, 09:14 PM	when you get to a high enough level, take extend spell and cast an extended mage armor which lasts most of the day. mage armor lasts most of the day anyway when you get to higher levels. The spell's duration is 1 hour per level.... one casting at 12th level should get you through most encounters during that day...
Roatso 01-22-06, 09:17 PM	Alter Self can be a good alternative... turn into a lizard man and get +5 Natural Armor... It's only 10 minutes/level though.
Objulen 01-22-06, 09:22 PM	Summon Monster spells are good for a quick meat shield.
Macrovore 01-22-06, 09:24 PM	Alter Self can be a good alternative... turn into a lizard man and get +5 Natural Armor... It's only 10 minutes/level though. or if you read the Alter Self text really liberally, you can be a tiefling or Aasimar and use it to turn into a ravid for a +15 nat. armor bonus. Smart DMs should, to defeat this, use Rich Burlew's alternate polymorph rules, at www.giantitp.com
Hariman 01-23-06, 03:09 AM	If you do take spells like Color Spray and Burning hands, don't walk up to the enemy to use it. Use it after the enemy gets into range and then back off. Combine this with a spear, summoned creature or riding dog to keep the enemy back for that one round you need to cast the spells. I still recommend Ray Of Enfeeblement. It can take away a barbarians rage bonus or even reduce a fighter below the 13 STR needed to power attack.
ArochanoX 01-23-06, 06:53 AM	If you're willing to take 1 level of monk, maximize your wis and take ascetic caster -feat from complete adventurer. You get monk AC bonus (sorcerer levels increase this) You get wis to AC (+2-3 AC at level 3) You get more HP You get unarmed attacks so you don't have to carry that stupid staff anymore.
Objulen 01-23-06, 10:01 PM	Alter Self can be a good alternative... turn into a lizard man and get +5 Natural Armor... It's only 10 minutes/level though. Troglodyte gives +6 natural armor, and since Alter Self doesn't grant ability modifiers, you don't get the negative to dexterity.
Sukugaru 01-24-06, 01:41 AM	If you're willing to take 1 level of monk, maximize your wis and take ascetic caster -feat from complete adventurer. You get monk AC bonus (sorcerer levels increase this) You get wis to AC (+2-3 AC at level 3) You get more HP You get unarmed attacks so you don't have to carry that stupid staff anymore. I don't have my books with me at the moment, so I might be misremembering... but I'm pretty sure that Ascetic Mage changes things around a bit and gives you Charisma to AC, instead of Wisdom to AC.
Roatso 01-24-06, 01:56 AM	Troglodyte gives +6 natural armor, and since Alter Self doesn't grant ability modifiers, you don't get the negative to dexterity. True that. I guess I'm partial to the hold breath ability and the skill adds. Though a Trog might be good if you wanted to do some low level meleeing. Edit: Oh yeah, if he has access to the Under Dark or Serpent Kingdoms books there's also Phaelock for NA+7 and Tren for +8
ArochanoX 01-24-06, 03:51 AM	Sukugaru: I don't have my books with me at the moment, so I might be misremembering... but I'm pretty sure that Ascetic Mage changes things around a bit and gives you Charisma to AC, instead of Wisdom to AC. Even better. :D I don't have my books with me either :P
Puca 01-24-06, 09:47 AM	It does do that. That feat is really one of the few things that would make me consider losing a caster-level as a sorc. Most of this has been said, but: Miss-chances are better than armor. Your best one now is Mirror Image. Movement is key. Use other people and obstacles to limit lanes of charge and provide soft cover. The long spear is the best low-level sorc weapon. At the very least, youll get an attack of opportunity on those who try to close with you. I dont know if this has been mentioned, but you could get a mithral buckler. Even lacking shield proficiency, it has no armor check penalty to apply and 0% ASF. 2005 is a lot for a +1 shield bonus, and at this point in your career that money is better spent on scrolls and wands. The benefits of the buckler are that you can add magical enhancements later, like fortification or DR.
OctoberRaven 01-24-06, 10:01 AM	Besides Mage Armor? Shield can raise this to 17, and I have 2500 gp, which means I could buy either a Ring of Protection or Bracers of Armor, either one giving me +1... any thoughts? RoP > BoA. If you actually got Mage Armor (what's wrong with you?!) which I do believe stacks with Sheild, then you have an AC of 21. I mean, dude, Mage Armor! That's even more important than Magic Missile for Boccob's sake!