Better Bard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Better Bard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gadren
05-26-07, 12:05 AM I've noticed that nobody ever wants to play a bard in any of the games I run or play in, unless they're aiming for Sublime Chord.

So, I thought in the next campaign I run, I'd make bards more desirable, without making them outshine other classes.
So, this was the adjustment I thought I'd make, what do you think?:

Every three levels (3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th), bards get to choose a special ability from the following list:
Bardic Music Feat: The bard may gain a bonus Bardic Music Feat that he meets the prerequisites for. This ability can be chosen multiple times.
Sneak Attack: The bard gets +1d6 sneak attack, as a rogue. This ability can be chosen up to three times.
Arcane Spell: The bard can add any one arcane spell (from any class list) to his spell's known, though it cannot be of a higher level than his highest level spell known. This can be taken multiple times.
Divine Spell: The bard can add any one divine spell to his spell's known, though it must be at least one level lower than his highest level spell known. He casts it as an arcane bard spell. This can be taken multiple times.
Psionic Power: The bard can add any one psionic power to his spell's known, as a spell of the power's level. It must be at least one level lower than his highest level spell known. He casts it as an arcane bard spell, and it is always treated as if augmented to the max by a manifester 3 levels lower (minimum 1) than the bard's caster level. This can be taken twice.
Uncanny Dodge:The bard gains uncanny dodge, as a 2nd level barbarian. This ability can only be chosen once.
Favored Enemy:The bard gains a favored enemy as if a level 1 ranger. This ability may only be chosen once.
Still Mind: The bard gains the Still Mind ability as if a level 3 monk. This ability can only be chosen once.
Evasion: Must be bard 6 or higher. The bard gets evasion, as a rogue. This ability can only be chosen once.
Aura of Courage: Must be bard 6 or higher. The bard gains Aura of Courage, as a 3rd level paladin. This ability may only be chosen once.
Trackless Step: Must be a bard 9 or higher: The bard gain the Trackless Step ability as if a level 3 druid. This ability may only be taken once.
Weapon Specialization: Must be a bard 12 or higher. The bard gains the Weapon Specialization feat with one weapon of his choice, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites. This ability may only be chosen once.
Rialto
05-26-07, 01:29 AM There is nothing wrong with the bard per se but in a party of four usually a rogue is a more appropriate choice (skill monkey+trapfinding). If the group has other resources to fill that niche (artificer or beguiler, for instance) the bard is a decent choice. More so if the campaign is socially intensive (no other class has Speak Language as class skill) - his various skills augmented by spells and musical effects are very handy.
OneWinged4ngel
05-26-07, 01:33 AM I think bards are pretty solid as is (an improved Inspire Courage with feats and items and the like and Fascinate are enough to make you a solid contributor, and then you throw in UMD, a few solid spells, and a smatterring of a few other skills) though they could use some fixin' up in some areas. For one, the Perform nerf in 3.0 that eats up skills like a voracious beast for anyone who wants to play more than one instrument (or who wants to sing while they play their lute) is a pain, and no you don't want to have to spend a feat on Versatile Performer :rolleyes:

Anyways... at least one of those abilities doesn't sit right with me. Aura of Courage is redundant with Inspire Courage (gives allies the morale boost against fear), so all it's really doing is "supernaturally protecting the bard from fear in any form." That seems a tad out of theme with the majority of bard concepts.
CaoSlayer
05-26-07, 01:44 AM Dump the sneak attack one or limit it otherwise you are going to see hasted improved invisible bards outdamaging everything in the game.

Personally, in place of those random feats, allow them to pick any feat related to bardic music such as extra song, words of creation, metamagic song and such.

If you wants to make a better overall bard, just give them a d8, that makes them more useful for frontline without broking the whole class that actually is powerful.
Muktar
05-26-07, 01:48 AM Bards are fricken awesome. In the games that I am in. There is never a time where a bard isn't in it. His abilities and group buffs (thanks to SC) help the party soooo much and if the bard can play being exalted, words of creation. If you need help making bard builds which would make them almost too evil, I will help.
Hida Reju
05-26-07, 11:44 AM I too would go with a bonus feat every 5 lvls for bardic Music. There are so many cool Bard feats that you can never take even a fraction of them. But if you got a Bardic Music Feat at 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20 you would never need to prestige out at all.

Then you could spend your normal feats on things like making yourself a better skill monkey or fighting with ease.
Olidammara
05-27-07, 01:09 AM i play two campeigns at my store, one is role play based with little combat, and one is hack and slash, lotsa dungeon delving, etc. bards are awesome in both.
role playing wise, who the fook doesnt want to be that cocky, "i can do anyhting you can, but better", "i'm so much cooler, richer, and sexier than you are, and i know it", all around smart ass guy. plus, he's the leader of near anything, and most often if not, the spokesperson, so if you're into leading, or your group depends on someone to actually get **** started (mine) then they're a fine choice. i still love playing the smart ass.
hack and slash / dungeon, i actually just took my bard out, because the party was teasing me relentlessly for playing 3 bards in a row (we changed the campeign and gm a lot for a couple months) so i was like, f*ck it, i'll play the best fighter and kick all their fictional asses. that was the bigest mistake ever! bardic knowledge is a life saver in any situation. serisouly, names, items, places, anything your party doesnt know, chances are you bard does. inspire courage is awesome. it's only +1, but sometimes that's the world of differance, blus if you take melodic casting and inspirational boost, it goes to +2. agian, you need someone to talk to the guildmaster, king, shaman, or 12 foot tall body guard that's about to kill u, they're there.

simply put:
fast talk
boosts
skill monkey
library in the head
smart ass
InkBlot
05-27-07, 01:44 AM Have you asked your players why they never choose bard (unless aiming for sublime chord)? That would be a good place to start.

In my experiance, most people refuse to play a bard because they don't like the idea of bardic music. They don't want to play a character who's primary function depends on playing music, telling jokes or stories, dancing, giving a rousing speech, et cetera.
Muktar
05-27-07, 02:28 AM What most people don't realize is that bards deal a lot of damage. They just deal the damage vicariously. The buffs that they give is really good. They are awesome to rp. In fact if built right. 1v1, a bard could have a higher attack rating than a barbarian, pallie or fighter. Spell compendium helps a lot.
souldnce9
05-27-07, 04:29 AM There is no such thing as a better Bard. Bards rule! I'm currently in a campaign that has two bards, and we are thinking of starting a game that every player is a bard and we are traveling musicians. My Rogue in the current campaign loves having the bards around because while they are using fascinate on some poor unsuspecting suckers, I am snatchin said suckers' valuables. hehehe.
DreamerInsane
05-27-07, 04:52 AM For me, the annoyance with Bards is partially caused by the fact that I'd like to focus on being the "Wiz hasn't memorized that - hey, Bard guy, happen to have this and that occasionally used utility spell?" sort of fella, with some buffing thrown into the mix.

For that role, being a Sorc-lite sucks. You don't have the Sorc's spells/day, you have the Wiz's. You have less spell levels open to you at any given time, so you have way less castings/day than even a Wiz. Not nice.

But the main problem is spells known. How in the hell are you supposed to master obscure, rarely-used spells if your personal spell list is very limited? That sort of stuff discourages picking occasionally useful spells.

If it had a 3/4/5/6 spells/day progression (Like the Sorc) instead of the 1/2/3/4 of the Wiz and knew more spells (The extreme option is making it know the whole Bard list, Beguiler-style), I'd be more than happy with it. To the point of Bard 20.
Gadren
05-27-07, 03:08 PM Have you asked your players why they never choose bard (unless aiming for sublime chord)? That would be a good place to start.

In my experiance, most people refuse to play a bard because they don't like the idea of bardic music. They don't want to play a character who's primary function depends on playing music, telling jokes or stories, dancing, giving a rousing speech, et cetera.

They always tell me they think the bard is weak.
Chimaera2000
05-27-07, 09:09 PM I personally would like if bards had a d8 Hit Die and were able to cast spells while using bardic music. This increases their flexibility, and aren't bard's supposed to be jacks-of-all-trades? Although there are feats available that do these things already (Improved Toughness and Melodic Spellcasting), it would've been nice to just have them built into the class write-up.
Qwicksilver
05-27-07, 10:35 PM Have you asked your players why they never choose bard (unless aiming for sublime chord)? Yeah, to change the subject a bit, I kind of view sublime chord as being one of those prcs that are powered beyond the base class. I could be wrong, but it just gets to me that some prcs negate the usefulness of their base class by being better overall.

Anyway, I think i commented in your other thread that I feel most of your improvements don't seem too bad, except for the extra sneak attack damage. Someone else noted that if you add that, you'll get an imp invisible, hasted, bard running around out-damaging everyone. Plus, I don't see sneak attack as something that a bard class should have. Gearing them towards fighting could be done some other way, perhaps.

Also, about your group not liking bards. The truth is, you may not be able to change their minds even if you do power them up. Sometimes, i find often times, people just dislike the overall flavor of what being a bard is about. Not being a frontline fighter, not being someone who is a high damage dealer, not being a skill monkey, being a diplomat, and being a performer, all get to some people. Powering bards up might not be the answer is all I'm saying. And, if a person doesn't like a class, they might not play it no matter how many pluses you give it.
Gadren
05-27-07, 11:10 PM Someone else noted that if you add that, you'll get an imp invisible, hasted, bard running around out-damaging everyone. Plus, I don't see sneak attack as something that a bard class should have. Gearing them towards fighting could be done some other way, perhaps.

They gain, at most, 3d6 sneak attack. That the same as a level 5 rogue. There's nothing stopping a rogue from going improved invisible (either through multiclassing or UMD, or just having the caster cast it on them).
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-28-07, 12:31 AM The thing about bards isn't that they're weak. It's that they're not as blatant with thier powers as the cleric or wizard. A well played bard essentially controls when, where, if and under what circumstances combat happens and then controls the flow of combat.

The problem players fall into with the bard is trying to get kills on thier own instead of setting up kills for the other players. A good bard is using illusions to funnel combat, buffs to give the edge to party members and his free whip proficiency to drop enemies in melee.

I feel it is more important to explain the concept of the class to the players, rather than give it more powers, because eventually, a player will smarten up, realise how to play a bard, then use the extra power you've given the class to eat your game alive.
Gadren
05-28-07, 04:29 AM The thing about bards isn't that they're weak. It's that they're not as blatant with thier powers as the cleric or wizard. A well played bard essentially controls when, where, if and under what circumstances combat happens and then controls the flow of combat.

The problem players fall into with the bard is trying to get kills on thier own instead of setting up kills for the other players. A good bard is using illusions to funnel combat, buffs to give the edge to party members and his free whip proficiency to drop enemies in melee.

I feel it is more important to explain the concept of the class to the players, rather than give it more powers, because eventually, a player will smarten up, realise how to play a bard, then use the extra power you've given the class to eat your game alive.

Good points all. However, what combination of the abilities I listed do you really think would create a bard that would "eat my game alive"?
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer
05-28-07, 10:43 AM Bards are one of the most undervalued classes. I have always felt bards could stand to gain some extra feats to keep them on track with the idea of "jack of all trades". Otherwise, the combination of skills and spells make them an awesome class.

Imagine a human bard.

1st - Able Learner, Extra Music
3rd - Extra Music
6th - Lyrical Spell

At this point with 14 songs per day, he can convert them into 5 extra 2nd level spells per day. Since he can take Cure spells, he can cast more healing spells than a cleric at that level. With spells like Improvisation and Heroism, the skill point difference compared to the rogue becomes somewhat obsolete. When he can take Good Hope, it is like giving the entire party Weapon Specialization, and Heroism making them much better fighters and survive better with increases to hit, saves, and skill checks. By 9th level, a Bard can be a melee fighter with Arcane Strike or a defensive protector with Ironskin Chant.

The bard's major strength is turning heroes into superheroes. His spells make melee and skill types enhanced. All this while having the Knowledge base of a wizard. While a bard will not be blasting enemies into oblivion, he certainly has the skills and abilites to talk a cleric into giving him his Holy Symbols, pick pocketing a wizard' spell component pouch, tricking enemies into fighting amonst themselves, and buff himself to become a better skill monkey than a rogue or higher damage output than a fighter.
Seldriss
05-28-07, 10:56 AM In my experiance, most people refuse to play a bard because they don't like the idea of bardic music. They don't want to play a character who's primary function depends on playing music, telling jokes or stories, dancing, giving a rousing speech, et cetera.
Music, singing, storytelling and dancing are definitely good ways for a bard to express his talent through Perform and roleplaying, but they are not the only ones.

A bard can be a blade dancer, whirling swords with speed and accuracy, and using them to impress the crowd or his enemies. Think about the Blade kit of AD&D2.
He can also be a juggler, throwing and catching anything you can throw at him like a juggler in a circus, using thrown daggers and darts in fight, or even boomerangs or annuli if you want to be exotic.
He can be a thespian, impersonating people for the amusement of the crowd, or to imitate his enemies abilities.
He can be a jester, throwing jokes around, which can be used in adventure to confuse or taunt his adversaries.

You get the point. There are many other possibilities...
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-29-07, 01:15 AM Good points all. However, what combination of the abilities I listed do you really think would create a bard that would "eat my game alive"?
Oh yes, very much.

Mostly sneak attack, favored enemy, divine spell and weapon spec.

SA: Let's just say I took one sneak attack dice, shall we? I'm a bard; summons and illusions are what I do. Between flanking and all the suprise rounds I'm going to be getting from the aforementioned control features of my class, you just gave me a free +1 magic weapon enhancement that stacks with everything and isn't subject to energy resistance. Booya!

Favored Enemy: You do not want me to get any more free bonuses to skills. Seriously. By level 3, I've already got a +14 (6 ranks, +3 Chr, +3 skill focus, +2 synergy) on my bluff check if I even make a modicum of effort. A +2 vs. humans alone is going to make wrapping entire towns around my little finger far into the realm of 'too easy' -- but then I also get bonus damage for my gish class and +2 to three other highly useful skills (also Survival)? How do I sign?

Divine Spell: Ignore all the splats. Ignore all the other divine spells in the book for that matter. You just gave my Gish class divine favor I could kiss you on the lips.

Weapon Specialization: Again, I'm a Gish, this is delicious and nutritious.
Devil Gnasher
05-29-07, 01:25 AM In the Battle of Hastings one of William the Conqueror's warriors was a troubadour. This troubadour rode into battle, in front of his own army, juggling either three long daggers or three short swords while singing vulgar and insulting songs about the English they were fighting. How about that for a bard role model? Tell your players about that little tidbit then stand back and watch.
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-29-07, 03:23 AM And never forget perform (oratory) You don't get a MW bonus, but in return, you have both hands free. And rousing, inspirational speeches are fun to make up in combat.

Our sharpened blades will seek the lifeblood of our enemies and spill it until the ground is turned to ruddy red for generations to come. We will drive them from the feild of battle, see thier lines broken and thier commanders scattered and fleeing in the four winds. This day, we will not relent until our enemies are vanquished and we have carried this day. Press onward -- to glory! To destiny! TO VICTORY!!
Muktar
05-29-07, 05:02 AM It is actually one of the things in the group that we wait for. For the person playing the bard to come up with some song to sing for at least a couple songs.
Gadren
05-30-07, 05:24 PM In the Battle of Hastings one of William the Conqueror's warriors was a troubadour. This troubadour rode into battle, in front of his own army, juggling either three long daggers or three short swords while singing vulgar and insulting songs about the English they were fighting. How about that for a bard role model? Tell your players about that little tidbit then stand back and watch.
Well he needed something impressive on his side. William was a wuss.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gadren 05-26-07, 12:05 AM	I've noticed that nobody ever wants to play a bard in any of the games I run or play in, unless they're aiming for Sublime Chord. So, I thought in the next campaign I run, I'd make bards more desirable, without making them outshine other classes. So, this was the adjustment I thought I'd make, what do you think?: Every three levels (3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th), bards get to choose a special ability from the following list: Bardic Music Feat: The bard may gain a bonus Bardic Music Feat that he meets the prerequisites for. This ability can be chosen multiple times. Sneak Attack: The bard gets +1d6 sneak attack, as a rogue. This ability can be chosen up to three times. Arcane Spell: The bard can add any one arcane spell (from any class list) to his spell's known, though it cannot be of a higher level than his highest level spell known. This can be taken multiple times. Divine Spell: The bard can add any one divine spell to his spell's known, though it must be at least one level lower than his highest level spell known. He casts it as an arcane bard spell. This can be taken multiple times. Psionic Power: The bard can add any one psionic power to his spell's known, as a spell of the power's level. It must be at least one level lower than his highest level spell known. He casts it as an arcane bard spell, and it is always treated as if augmented to the max by a manifester 3 levels lower (minimum 1) than the bard's caster level. This can be taken twice. Uncanny Dodge:The bard gains uncanny dodge, as a 2nd level barbarian. This ability can only be chosen once. Favored Enemy:The bard gains a favored enemy as if a level 1 ranger. This ability may only be chosen once. Still Mind: The bard gains the Still Mind ability as if a level 3 monk. This ability can only be chosen once. Evasion: Must be bard 6 or higher. The bard gets evasion, as a rogue. This ability can only be chosen once. Aura of Courage: Must be bard 6 or higher. The bard gains Aura of Courage, as a 3rd level paladin. This ability may only be chosen once. Trackless Step: Must be a bard 9 or higher: The bard gain the Trackless Step ability as if a level 3 druid. This ability may only be taken once. Weapon Specialization: Must be a bard 12 or higher. The bard gains the Weapon Specialization feat with one weapon of his choice, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites. This ability may only be chosen once.
Rialto 05-26-07, 01:29 AM	There is nothing wrong with the bard per se but in a party of four usually a rogue is a more appropriate choice (skill monkey+trapfinding). If the group has other resources to fill that niche (artificer or beguiler, for instance) the bard is a decent choice. More so if the campaign is socially intensive (no other class has Speak Language as class skill) - his various skills augmented by spells and musical effects are very handy.
OneWinged4ngel 05-26-07, 01:33 AM	I think bards are pretty solid as is (an improved Inspire Courage with feats and items and the like and Fascinate are enough to make you a solid contributor, and then you throw in UMD, a few solid spells, and a smatterring of a few other skills) though they could use some fixin' up in some areas. For one, the Perform nerf in 3.0 that eats up skills like a voracious beast for anyone who wants to play more than one instrument (or who wants to sing while they play their lute) is a pain, and no you don't want to have to spend a feat on Versatile Performer :rolleyes: Anyways... at least one of those abilities doesn't sit right with me. Aura of Courage is redundant with Inspire Courage (gives allies the morale boost against fear), so all it's really doing is "supernaturally protecting the bard from fear in any form." That seems a tad out of theme with the majority of bard concepts.
CaoSlayer 05-26-07, 01:44 AM	Dump the sneak attack one or limit it otherwise you are going to see hasted improved invisible bards outdamaging everything in the game. Personally, in place of those random feats, allow them to pick any feat related to bardic music such as extra song, words of creation, metamagic song and such. If you wants to make a better overall bard, just give them a d8, that makes them more useful for frontline without broking the whole class that actually is powerful.
Muktar 05-26-07, 01:48 AM	Bards are fricken awesome. In the games that I am in. There is never a time where a bard isn't in it. His abilities and group buffs (thanks to SC) help the party soooo much and if the bard can play being exalted, words of creation. If you need help making bard builds which would make them almost too evil, I will help.
Hida Reju 05-26-07, 11:44 AM	I too would go with a bonus feat every 5 lvls for bardic Music. There are so many cool Bard feats that you can never take even a fraction of them. But if you got a Bardic Music Feat at 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20 you would never need to prestige out at all. Then you could spend your normal feats on things like making yourself a better skill monkey or fighting with ease.
Olidammara 05-27-07, 01:09 AM	i play two campeigns at my store, one is role play based with little combat, and one is hack and slash, lotsa dungeon delving, etc. bards are awesome in both. role playing wise, who the fook doesnt want to be that cocky, "i can do anyhting you can, but better", "i'm so much cooler, richer, and sexier than you are, and i know it", all around smart ass guy. plus, he's the leader of near anything, and most often if not, the spokesperson, so if you're into leading, or your group depends on someone to actually get **** started (mine) then they're a fine choice. i still love playing the smart ass. hack and slash / dungeon, i actually just took my bard out, because the party was teasing me relentlessly for playing 3 bards in a row (we changed the campeign and gm a lot for a couple months) so i was like, f*ck it, i'll play the best fighter and kick all their fictional asses. that was the bigest mistake ever! bardic knowledge is a life saver in any situation. serisouly, names, items, places, anything your party doesnt know, chances are you bard does. inspire courage is awesome. it's only +1, but sometimes that's the world of differance, blus if you take melodic casting and inspirational boost, it goes to +2. agian, you need someone to talk to the guildmaster, king, shaman, or 12 foot tall body guard that's about to kill u, they're there. simply put: fast talk boosts skill monkey library in the head smart ass
InkBlot 05-27-07, 01:44 AM	Have you asked your players why they never choose bard (unless aiming for sublime chord)? That would be a good place to start. In my experiance, most people refuse to play a bard because they don't like the idea of bardic music. They don't want to play a character who's primary function depends on playing music, telling jokes or stories, dancing, giving a rousing speech, et cetera.
Muktar 05-27-07, 02:28 AM	What most people don't realize is that bards deal a lot of damage. They just deal the damage vicariously. The buffs that they give is really good. They are awesome to rp. In fact if built right. 1v1, a bard could have a higher attack rating than a barbarian, pallie or fighter. Spell compendium helps a lot.
souldnce9 05-27-07, 04:29 AM	There is no such thing as a better Bard. Bards rule! I'm currently in a campaign that has two bards, and we are thinking of starting a game that every player is a bard and we are traveling musicians. My Rogue in the current campaign loves having the bards around because while they are using fascinate on some poor unsuspecting suckers, I am snatchin said suckers' valuables. hehehe.
DreamerInsane 05-27-07, 04:52 AM	For me, the annoyance with Bards is partially caused by the fact that I'd like to focus on being the "Wiz hasn't memorized that - hey, Bard guy, happen to have this and that occasionally used utility spell?" sort of fella, with some buffing thrown into the mix. For that role, being a Sorc-lite sucks. You don't have the Sorc's spells/day, you have the Wiz's. You have less spell levels open to you at any given time, so you have way less castings/day than even a Wiz. Not nice. But the main problem is spells known. How in the hell are you supposed to master obscure, rarely-used spells if your personal spell list is very limited? That sort of stuff discourages picking occasionally useful spells. If it had a 3/4/5/6 spells/day progression (Like the Sorc) instead of the 1/2/3/4 of the Wiz and knew more spells (The extreme option is making it know the whole Bard list, Beguiler-style), I'd be more than happy with it. To the point of Bard 20.
Gadren 05-27-07, 03:08 PM	Have you asked your players why they never choose bard (unless aiming for sublime chord)? That would be a good place to start. In my experiance, most people refuse to play a bard because they don't like the idea of bardic music. They don't want to play a character who's primary function depends on playing music, telling jokes or stories, dancing, giving a rousing speech, et cetera. They always tell me they think the bard is weak.
Chimaera2000 05-27-07, 09:09 PM	I personally would like if bards had a d8 Hit Die and were able to cast spells while using bardic music. This increases their flexibility, and aren't bard's supposed to be jacks-of-all-trades? Although there are feats available that do these things already (Improved Toughness and Melodic Spellcasting), it would've been nice to just have them built into the class write-up.
Qwicksilver 05-27-07, 10:35 PM	Have you asked your players why they never choose bard (unless aiming for sublime chord)? Yeah, to change the subject a bit, I kind of view sublime chord as being one of those prcs that are powered beyond the base class. I could be wrong, but it just gets to me that some prcs negate the usefulness of their base class by being better overall. Anyway, I think i commented in your other thread that I feel most of your improvements don't seem too bad, except for the extra sneak attack damage. Someone else noted that if you add that, you'll get an imp invisible, hasted, bard running around out-damaging everyone. Plus, I don't see sneak attack as something that a bard class should have. Gearing them towards fighting could be done some other way, perhaps. Also, about your group not liking bards. The truth is, you may not be able to change their minds even if you do power them up. Sometimes, i find often times, people just dislike the overall flavor of what being a bard is about. Not being a frontline fighter, not being someone who is a high damage dealer, not being a skill monkey, being a diplomat, and being a performer, all get to some people. Powering bards up might not be the answer is all I'm saying. And, if a person doesn't like a class, they might not play it no matter how many pluses you give it.
Gadren 05-27-07, 11:10 PM	Someone else noted that if you add that, you'll get an imp invisible, hasted, bard running around out-damaging everyone. Plus, I don't see sneak attack as something that a bard class should have. Gearing them towards fighting could be done some other way, perhaps. They gain, at most, 3d6 sneak attack. That the same as a level 5 rogue. There's nothing stopping a rogue from going improved invisible (either through multiclassing or UMD, or just having the caster cast it on them).
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-28-07, 12:31 AM	The thing about bards isn't that they're weak. It's that they're not as blatant with thier powers as the cleric or wizard. A well played bard essentially controls when, where, if and under what circumstances combat happens and then controls the flow of combat. The problem players fall into with the bard is trying to get kills on thier own instead of setting up kills for the other players. A good bard is using illusions to funnel combat, buffs to give the edge to party members and his free whip proficiency to drop enemies in melee. I feel it is more important to explain the concept of the class to the players, rather than give it more powers, because eventually, a player will smarten up, realise how to play a bard, then use the extra power you've given the class to eat your game alive.
Gadren 05-28-07, 04:29 AM	The thing about bards isn't that they're weak. It's that they're not as blatant with thier powers as the cleric or wizard. A well played bard essentially controls when, where, if and under what circumstances combat happens and then controls the flow of combat. The problem players fall into with the bard is trying to get kills on thier own instead of setting up kills for the other players. A good bard is using illusions to funnel combat, buffs to give the edge to party members and his free whip proficiency to drop enemies in melee. I feel it is more important to explain the concept of the class to the players, rather than give it more powers, because eventually, a player will smarten up, realise how to play a bard, then use the extra power you've given the class to eat your game alive. Good points all. However, what combination of the abilities I listed do you really think would create a bard that would "eat my game alive"?
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 05-28-07, 10:43 AM	Bards are one of the most undervalued classes. I have always felt bards could stand to gain some extra feats to keep them on track with the idea of "jack of all trades". Otherwise, the combination of skills and spells make them an awesome class. Imagine a human bard. 1st - Able Learner, Extra Music 3rd - Extra Music 6th - Lyrical Spell At this point with 14 songs per day, he can convert them into 5 extra 2nd level spells per day. Since he can take Cure spells, he can cast more healing spells than a cleric at that level. With spells like Improvisation and Heroism, the skill point difference compared to the rogue becomes somewhat obsolete. When he can take Good Hope, it is like giving the entire party Weapon Specialization, and Heroism making them much better fighters and survive better with increases to hit, saves, and skill checks. By 9th level, a Bard can be a melee fighter with Arcane Strike or a defensive protector with Ironskin Chant. The bard's major strength is turning heroes into superheroes. His spells make melee and skill types enhanced. All this while having the Knowledge base of a wizard. While a bard will not be blasting enemies into oblivion, he certainly has the skills and abilites to talk a cleric into giving him his Holy Symbols, pick pocketing a wizard' spell component pouch, tricking enemies into fighting amonst themselves, and buff himself to become a better skill monkey than a rogue or higher damage output than a fighter.
Seldriss 05-28-07, 10:56 AM	In my experiance, most people refuse to play a bard because they don't like the idea of bardic music. They don't want to play a character who's primary function depends on playing music, telling jokes or stories, dancing, giving a rousing speech, et cetera. Music, singing, storytelling and dancing are definitely good ways for a bard to express his talent through Perform and roleplaying, but they are not the only ones. A bard can be a blade dancer, whirling swords with speed and accuracy, and using them to impress the crowd or his enemies. Think about the Blade kit of AD&D2. He can also be a juggler, throwing and catching anything you can throw at him like a juggler in a circus, using thrown daggers and darts in fight, or even boomerangs or annuli if you want to be exotic. He can be a thespian, impersonating people for the amusement of the crowd, or to imitate his enemies abilities. He can be a jester, throwing jokes around, which can be used in adventure to confuse or taunt his adversaries. You get the point. There are many other possibilities...
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-29-07, 01:15 AM	Good points all. However, what combination of the abilities I listed do you really think would create a bard that would "eat my game alive"? Oh yes, very much. Mostly sneak attack, favored enemy, divine spell and weapon spec. SA: Let's just say I took one sneak attack dice, shall we? I'm a bard; summons and illusions are what I do. Between flanking and all the suprise rounds I'm going to be getting from the aforementioned control features of my class, you just gave me a free +1 magic weapon enhancement that stacks with everything and isn't subject to energy resistance. Booya! Favored Enemy: You do not want me to get any more free bonuses to skills. Seriously. By level 3, I've already got a +14 (6 ranks, +3 Chr, +3 skill focus, +2 synergy) on my bluff check if I even make a modicum of effort. A +2 vs. humans alone is going to make wrapping entire towns around my little finger far into the realm of 'too easy' -- but then I also get bonus damage for my gish class and +2 to three other highly useful skills (also Survival)? How do I sign? Divine Spell: Ignore all the splats. Ignore all the other divine spells in the book for that matter. You just gave my Gish class divine favor I could kiss you on the lips. Weapon Specialization: Again, I'm a Gish, this is delicious and nutritious.
Devil Gnasher 05-29-07, 01:25 AM	In the Battle of Hastings one of William the Conqueror's warriors was a troubadour. This troubadour rode into battle, in front of his own army, juggling either three long daggers or three short swords while singing vulgar and insulting songs about the English they were fighting. How about that for a bard role model? Tell your players about that little tidbit then stand back and watch.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-29-07, 03:23 AM	And never forget perform (oratory) You don't get a MW bonus, but in return, you have both hands free. And rousing, inspirational speeches are fun to make up in combat. Our sharpened blades will seek the lifeblood of our enemies and spill it until the ground is turned to ruddy red for generations to come. We will drive them from the feild of battle, see thier lines broken and thier commanders scattered and fleeing in the four winds. This day, we will not relent until our enemies are vanquished and we have carried this day. Press onward -- to glory! To destiny! TO VICTORY!!
Muktar 05-29-07, 05:02 AM	It is actually one of the things in the group that we wait for. For the person playing the bard to come up with some song to sing for at least a couple songs.
Gadren 05-30-07, 05:24 PM	In the Battle of Hastings one of William the Conqueror's warriors was a troubadour. This troubadour rode into battle, in front of his own army, juggling either three long daggers or three short swords while singing vulgar and insulting songs about the English they were fighting. How about that for a bard role model? Tell your players about that little tidbit then stand back and watch. Well he needed something impressive on his side. William was a wuss.