Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rahvin_Storm_Blade 10-21-03, 06:57 PM	I am considering playing a Ranger and I am having a hard time deciding between a human Ranger (extra feat) or an elven Ranger (Spot, Listen, Search Bonus +2 to Dex) I was wondering if any of you experienced Rangers can tell which one you think is the better Ranger?
Baalzamon 10-21-03, 07:25 PM	if you are going to pick TWF, use human if you are going to pick archery, use elf doesnt get much simpler than that :)
Jell_Moo 10-21-03, 07:35 PM	I would suggest a Halfling Ranger, especially if you want to be an archer. +2 to Dex +2 to Climb, Jump, and Move Silently +2 to Listen +4 to Hide +1 to hit and AC +1 to saves These stats make for a great archer based ranger. The -2 to Strength will hurt less than the -2 to Con that the elf brings to the party.
Baalzamon 10-21-03, 09:04 PM	I personaly dont like the small size and reduced speed, but if you dont mind it, then go ahead for an archer. you havent really told us what type of ranger you want though
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-21-03, 09:42 PM	IMO if you're starting at 1st-level go archery. Either way you're taking a -2 penalty to hit, but it's a lot easier to get full-round attacks for archery. Furthermore, you can wear a buckler while shooting without too much trouble, just in case something catches up to you. That's a good time to whip out your sword and fight blade-n-board. Because favored enemy damage is no longer precision based, the TWF/favored enemy advantage no longer exists. You get the same bonus with Rapid Shot as with TWF. Oh yeah, with your low AC, archery tends to help. Note your buckler doesn't protect you from ranged attacks, though.
Rahvin_Storm_Blade 10-21-03, 10:33 PM	Well I was thinking of going the archer route but taking the two weapon fighting feat. I than want to go with Point blank shot, Dodge, Mobility and shot on the run so that he can be a guerilla fighter when in the wilderness. I really like the idea of the extra feat getting him the Shot on the run feat earlier than the elf but I also like the better DEX that an elf has plus the spot, listen and search bonuses that they enjoy. I haven't played a Ranger since 3.5 came out so I was just hoping that some experienced Rangers could help out in my decision making. Thanks for the input! :)
Fedifensor 10-21-03, 11:24 PM	Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead Because favored enemy damage is no longer precision based, the TWF/favored enemy advantage no longer exists. You get the same bonus with Rapid Shot as with TWF.There is something to be said for an 11th level ranger with the TWF chain. The NPC I created for my game has 6 attacks at 11th level, with giants as his primary favored enemy (+6 damage per attack). On average, he'll drop a hill giant in 2 rounds...not bad! Sure, it would be safer to take out the giant at a distance...but all the bow feats put together won't give you 6 attacks per round. You're looking at 4 attacks for an 11th level ranger with Rapid Shot.
Baalzamon 10-22-03, 12:19 PM	I also prefer a TWF ranger. Also consider half elf if you dont want a con penalty. if you can spare a decent int it makes up for the humans skill points, and IMO the 1 extra feat isnt as good as the +2 saves vs enchantment and the skill bonuses of the half elf.
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-22-03, 12:26 PM	Originally posted by Fedifensor There is something to be said for an 11th level ranger with the TWF chain. The NPC I created for my game has 6 attacks at 11th level, with giants as his primary favored enemy (+6 damage per attack). On average, he'll drop a hill giant in 2 rounds...not bad! Sure, it would be safer to take out the giant at a distance...but all the bow feats put together won't give you 6 attacks per round. You're looking at 4 attacks for an 11th level ranger with Rapid Shot. Well, I was talking about lower levels :D It's a trade-off, but IMO the archer is usually the better choice. And yes, I agree that you could just take TWF as a feat as well, but I prefer my buckler. :)
Raych 10-22-03, 12:46 PM	Simply from an optimization stand point, human, elf, and half-elf all have their advantages and draw backs. If you are expecting a lot of night time or dark environment encounters, forget the human. If you want the elven traits, but not the penalties, the half-elf is the best way to go. The half-elf splits the difference nicely, but is not terribly advantagous. You give up something for what is effectively no draw-backs. If you are in the mood for an elven character, I recommend the Wood Elf ranger over a High Elf ranger for purely combat reasons (I also prefer Wood Elves for other things, but that's me). So, here's the break down. Human: Has an additional feat and learns skills faster. Those extra points are nice, even for a ranger with the increased skill points. The draw-back is that they are far less effective at night than the elf or half-elf. High Elf: Makes for a great archery based ranger. It's effectiveness at night can't be forgotten, and it's sharper senses can be an important advantage. Problem is, this character is not as suited for melee combat, which is inevitable. Additionally, ranger is not a favored class, so multiclassing can really hurt you. Wood Elf: Has all the same advantages as the High Elf, but is also physically stronger, making them better archers when you factor in mighty bows. They are slightly better at melee combat due to being stronger. The additional penalties can hurt greatly. The loss of that extra skill point can really be felt if you already have a low stat. The loss of the Charisma really only factors in on certain skill rolls, but can really hurt at times. You need to balance the combat advantages with these losses. In favor of the Wood Elf is that ranger is the favored class. Multiclassing (particularly with fighter) is not nearly as painful, so it's a good way to get a few extra feats quickly, with the loss of a little ranger power. Half-Elf: Probably the best "elf" option. You don't have the bonuses of the extra feat or the skill points, and only part of the elven racial bonuses, but you suffer no stat penalties. This can be a very strong advantage for a ranger. Additionally, you have some fo the human versatility in class selection. This can be a big plus if you decide to multiclass. I have yet to play with any other racial varient, so I can only speak for those races as a ranger. Hope it helps. Edit: Glaring spelling error
BenjCano 10-22-03, 01:56 PM	Originally posted by Raych High Elf: Makes for a great archery based ranger. It's effectiveness at night can't be forgotten, and it's sharper senses can be an important advantage. Problem is, this character is not as suited for melee combat, which is inevitable. Additionally, ranger is not a favored class, so multiclassing can really hurt you. Dude, what are you talking about? Half-elves have "any" as their favored class.
bitnine 10-22-03, 01:57 PM	Originally posted by BenjCano Dude, what are you talking about? Half-elves have "any" as their favored class. Erm, as the "high" in the name he gave might suggest, I think he was talking about high elves in that block and not half elves.
broken skull 10-22-03, 02:52 PM	I prefer human ranger cuz : favoret class - any; 1 extra feat ; 1 skill point at each level. drow rangers are fun also ...
Thorak 10-22-03, 03:31 PM	I also vote for halflings for archer-types; Good dex bonus, the bonuses to saves and hit and AC are all useful, and the only disadvantage, low strength, is offset by the fact that you need a mighty bow to take advantage of a high str. And, if you drop a decent stat in there anyway, -2 to a stat only translates into a loss of 1 damage a shot, since the to-hit bonus is dex-related. I'd rather have 1 less damage on every shot I make, and conversely 1 extra hit point compared to an elf, especially considering how many ways there are to improve damage. Oh, one other disadvantage I see, not able to use medium-sized longbows. This means you have 1d6 damage as your maximum base. Some may say that small size is also a disadvantage, but I disagree. An archer has two factors to keep in mind at all times: Keep in range of the enemy, and prevent them from finding/shooting at you. Being small means you can't run as fast, true, but you get an AC bonus, as well as having an easier time finding cover (since you're about half the size of a human, it makes sense that any rock that provides 50% concealment provides you with 100%). Hiding places are also easier to find (from an RP, I-can-fit-in-there way, not game mechanics so far as I know). Besides, with good planning, you can keep the enemy away from you long enough to slam a few arrows into him or duck behind a big burly Barbarian. Stat wise, level 1 halfling archer vs elf archer, natural 18s in str, dex, and con (plus racial mods): Halfling: +5 to hit, +3 to damage, AC 16 (naked), 12 HP, 1d6+3 max (halfling longbow or medium shortbow, take your pick) for an average damage of 6.5 per shot Elf: +5 to hit, +4 damage, AC 15, 11 HP, 1d8 +4 max damage for an average of 8.5 per shot. Statistically, at first level, the elf has the advantage in offense, but the halfling in defense. Does 2 extra average damage offset a 1 in 20 less chance of being hit, and slightly more hit points? Before answering, bear in mind the halfling also gets +1 to all saves, and the damage difference gets less signifigant as levels get higher. Imagine a +4 bow of flaming, icy, and shocking burst. Even disregarding the sick critical damage, every shot for a halfling is 1d6 +3d6 +7 while for an elf it's 1d8 +3d6 +8. Averages are 21 versus 23. Instead of being an almost 24% increase in damage, this has dropped to being just below 9%, and this is just counting the advantage of a better bow. Anything that improves damage makes the difference, damage wise, smaller, while the halfling still retains full undimished advantages, in fact his HP advantage grows.
bitnine 10-22-03, 03:41 PM	Depending on your environs, a Dwarf isn't too shabby as a ranger, particularly an underground-themed ranger. Longstrider brings that speed back up to 30', blindsight is handy in many subterrainian environs, and the high skills of a ranger combine with Stonecunning to make the Dwarven ranger not all that shabby at scouting in general. Other than that, I'd go with human mostly. But then again, it depends how much you'll be focusing on scouting/stealth and how much you'll be mixing in combat abilities, as well as your common environs.
Raych 10-22-03, 06:07 PM	Originally posted by bitnine Erm, as the "high" in the name he gave might suggest, I think he was talking about high elves in that block and not half elves. That would be correct. Seeing as how I denoted sub-races (High, or the standard, Elf and Wood Elf) and then letter went on to talk about Half-Elves having the freedom of multi-classing, I think I definately covered my butt there. I don't want to sound snotty, but it is clear someone did not bother to apply cricital reading skills nor did they bother to actually read the entire thing. I am not perfect with the rules, but rangers I know pretty darn well, especially when talking about human, elf (high and wood), and half-elves as they are my standard and always have been. I'd like to think I've learned a little something about playing them. Edit: Spelling.
treeman4 10-22-03, 07:46 PM	....choosing what kind of ranger you want to play is a large part of why you are choosing a ranger. people are going ot tell you that this race gives you this, and that race give you that, but what is really important is what do YOU want to play. Are you more interested in playing the elven scout, doing reconnaissance fot the eveln militia, trying to find out where the orc base is? or would u rather play the human in touch with nature, and friends with the fey of the woodlands and possibly the elves to? i have never believed in playing a character based on which race gives it the best pluses or maximizes their abilities. although i like to play an elven (or half-elf, which is the best fit if you ask me) ranger, it is more or less because of the natural fit of the two, but i have also played a dwarven ranger to, a undeground scout. i have yet to play a halffling ranger, but i am thinking of playing one. personally i prefer the ranger/rogue combination, because you can combine the ranger archer skills with the rogues sneak attack and trap sense. makes them a great scout. i have also thought of palying the ranger/druid combo, and a ranger/sorcerer combo.
Thorak 10-22-03, 08:30 PM	I agree Treeman4, though I tend to play races that somewhat fit the character concept statistically. In other words, I'm unlikely to play a dwarven sorceror, though a dwarven wizard would be dandy. I only make this distinction because I'd need a darn good reason for my character to take a class he's not racially suited for. Now, I've come UP with darn good reasons and have played them before, but it gets in the way. This was the reason for my statistic-intensive halfling post. I'd never actually run the numbers before, but while posting it I got interested to see how different it WAS for halflings and elves, going the archer route. My next char's going to be a halfling ranger, and it has nothing to do with his stats, it has to do with the entire racial outlook of halflings and my character concept. If he had no racial stat adjustments, I'd still make him a halfling. As for the ranger/rogue idea, I'm torn. If I were going with a two-weapon fighter, I'd jump right in and start flanking everything. For an archer though, I just don't see too many chances to create sneak attacks. It also takes away from your BaB, and you never get high enough to get the truly cool abilities of either class. That said, I DID consider shadowdancer for my halfling ranger. sneak attack, and that shadow movement bit, along with the hide in plain sight I'd miss out on otherwise, all add up to niceness. Only problem is my character is decidedly non-dancy, and I'm not gonna munchkin him. Probably end up taking Deepwood Sniper if I try and specialize in archery, or Horizon Walker if I decide to go utility. Horizon walker also offsets many halfling deficiencies at higher levels, seeing as you can get darkvision and the ability to Dimension Door every 1d4 rounds, which gives you some nifty movement ability.
treeman4 10-22-03, 08:54 PM	thats cool if that is what you are trying to play....and i definitly understand that style of play. i also like the shadowdancer combined with the ranger and rogue.
deganawida 10-22-03, 10:22 PM	Actually, I would choose Archery (most likely with a Human--the bonus Feat and Skill Points come in real handy) regardless of whether or not I would be playing an archer or melee fighter. The reason for this is twofold: 1) I hate TWF with a passion, and it is far less advantageous when it comes both hitting your opponent and doing damage (unless you multiclass as a Rogue or get weapons that deal extra damage dice) and 2) Taking the Archery path means that there are 3 feats that I do not have to take. I shall now expound on Point 2. If you wish to play a versatile Ranger (which is how I play mine), then you need as many feats as possible. I tend to focus on melee combat (generally using a Bastard Sword), and so I rarely ever take any ranged feats. Taking Archery allows me to get three free feats that are going to be useful at times, such as when my opponent is flying or is across a chasm. Anyway, I would recommend to the original poster to play a Human and take Archery at 2nd level. The bonus feat and skill points will make you a much better warrior all-around, and help you survive longer (plus make a cooler character, if you ask me).
ManTimeForgot 10-23-03, 02:51 AM	Elf is probably a better choice for an archery ranger. Low light vision and higher sensory bonuses synergize very well with the ranger on an archery path. Additionally the elf makes enemy detection easier for the same reasons. Reduced con is made up for in increased AC, Init, reflex save, and accuracy with weapon of choice. The human makes a beter TWf ranger because the TW style is feat intensive and the human's bonus feat helps alleviate that strain. Another bonus which is very useful is the human's skill bonus. A ranger which wishes to increase his utility will benefit greatly from the extra 1 sp per level. On the whole I really can't say which race is better for the ranger. The half-elf is in between the human and elf entirely, and that is probably not the way to go. If you intended on multiclassing your ranger, then the half-elf would the archery student's race of choice. But I don't know just how many ranger's want to switch off ranger, especially archery rangers. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Thorak 10-23-03, 07:43 AM	Originally posted by ManTimeForgot Elf is probably a better choice for an archery ranger. Low light vision and higher sensory bonuses synergize very well with the ranger on an archery path. Additionally the elf makes enemy detection easier for the same reasons. Reduced con is made up for in increased AC, Init, reflex save, and accuracy with weapon of choice. I disagree on almost all counts, when comparing halflings to elves; Low light vision - granted, this is an advantage in low-light conditions. Higher sensory bonuses - comparatively, elves get +2 to search and spot, halflings get +2 move silently, climb, and jump. It comes down to a choice between observational or mobile ability. They both get +2 listen, regardless. Increased AC, Init, Reflex save, and Accuracy. I'm assuming these are from +2 dex. Halflings get that too. Halflings also get an additional +1 to ALL saves, +1 to hit and to AC from size, and +1 with all thrown weapons, nice to pack on with daggers or such as a backup weapon. They also get a +2 bonus to fear-type effects, which offsets the +2 to enchantments elves get. The only true advantages an elf gets over a halfling are low light vision and immunity to sleep, the latter something which only happens rarely anyway. Halflings get tons of little benefits to make up for what few losses they have, it all works out to a fairly even balance with an elf in the end. IMHO.
Raych 10-23-03, 04:11 PM	Another way to go, and this is what I'm doing with a character, is to take the archery line, but spend my feats on TWF and a few other things and PrC him into the Tempest.
Baalzamon 10-23-03, 04:16 PM	If you have the 19 dex and you want to use TWF and still get archery feats, it is actually much better to pick the archery style and buy the TWF feats. The archery feats all have prerequisites(point blank shot, precise shot) that you would have to get in order to buy all 3 of them with normal feat slots, but the TWF feats only have the dex requirement. Also, you would be able to use the TWF feats in medium armor(if you had proficiency from some source). This way you can easily switch from open ground archery light armor, to medium armored TWF. when you enter the dungeon or whatever, or any place where you would be less likely to use archery and more likely to go melee, you can prepare for it ahead of time by switching into better armor.
ManTimeForgot 10-23-03, 04:58 PM	The bonuses to climb and jump need to be left alone. The -2 strength penalty for halflings makes sure that this is going to be less effective. You didn't even mention the +4 bonus to hide. The halfling ranger is a sneaky one (just like the halfling rogue). This is where you need to be making your case, but is irrelevant considering other halfling factors. So the halfling is better at hiding and moving silent. Gains bonus to saving throws (which admittedly is nice). Gains a bonus to a fighting style the ranger should not be using outside of hunting. Rightly the halfling gets the same bonuses for Dexterity, and the Con penalty hurts the elf. The halfling's +2 bonus versus fear is roughly equal to elven +2 bonus versus enchantment. But you didn't note the worst part of all. The halfling carries 3/4 the weight of an elf of same strength. The halfling -2 str means he will probably have less strength. Halflings use halfling size weapons which deal less damage (so your backup throwing weapon is going to be more accurate as a halfling but deal less damage than the elven backup throwing weapon). The halfling has less movement rate, which is the coup de grace to the halfling archer ranger. The elf can make supremely better use of shot on the run and any archer worth his salt is going to need shot on the run. I don't care how good your halfling is at hiding, if he can't run he is toast. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Thorak 10-23-03, 05:59 PM	I've pointed out workarounds for both the damage loss (both from strength and from smaller weapons) in an earlier post in this thread, and the difference lessens as you get better gear and skills. On the other hand, the halfling advantage in hitpoints INCREASES as you gain levels. For my money hitting more often roughly equals a small loss in damage, since it doesn't matter much unless we're talking about death from mighty blow wether the damage is one big source, or a couple smaller ones. Yes, run speed sucks for halflings. Several workarounds are available: As you mentioned, halflings are sneaky, hard to find little buggers. Hiding and sniping is a perfectly legit alternative to running around hoping you don't get hit, especially since mages can't target what they can't find (while they, and any ranged attackers CAN target the fleet-footed elf) Take a level of barbarian. Boom, 30 foot speed. Yes, the elf can get to 40, but if all we're concerned about is your 'standard' opponent, 30's enough to keep pace away from the enemy. If it's flying and/or just faster than normal humans anyway, the elf is just as toast. Running or hiding both have problems, you seem to think running is superior but provide no reason to think so. Magical items (boots of speed come to mind) are a quick, easy fix. Horizon Walker PrC deserves a special mention. You can easily get darkvision (a good addition to the no-special-sight halfling, or even the elf), AND the ability to Dimension Door every 1d4 rounds. Bang, fun fun fun for suddenly being not where you were and hiding again. You can afford to be found out every so often with this. Never said halflings were BETTER than elves, just comparable.
sidekick 10-23-03, 05:59 PM	First off, good on you for wanting to play a ranger, they rock. Looking at this thread you've got a bit of a predicament, wood elf, human and half-elf all make very good Rangers, I've never played a halfling ranger so I honestly couldn't comment although they do sound intriguing. I guess it comes down to what you want to play as, and how the party is comprised. I personally love TWF route and my current ranger is an essential part of my party's defensive shield. If you are going to go TWf, then get two weapon defence, you'll need the +1 to AC, also get focus in your main weapon, this is essential to make up for the -2 to attack. I think if you are going for a TWF ranger then go Half-elf, you get low-light, +2 to skills you don't have as class but could need (dipl is always handy). The favoured class (any) is awesome and lets you multi-class good (mmmmm ranger/clericlisicios :smirk: ). All up the four skill ranks aren’t really needed you should be getting at least 24 points @ 1st and 6 after that, that enough. The extra feat, isn't really essential, you get track, combat tree and endurance all by third level. Also, I think that 1/2 elf ranger ooze style (just like Mr Domino)!!! Good luck and have fun, oh and remember one important thing about rangers..... You are not a mean shield, if you try to be one, you WILL DIE. Thank you