Better then Barbarian [Archive] - Wizards Community

Better then Barbarian [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JelloManEats
02-15-07, 05:26 PM Looking for something that will out do/overpower a barbarian.
also, what are some bad things about barbarians.
ninjarabbit
02-15-07, 05:43 PM Personally I think a well optimized paladin can outdamage and outlast a barbarian.

There's really nothing "bad" about a barbarian, the only real downside of being a barbarian is that you can't have a lawful alignment.
Willie the Duck
02-15-07, 06:31 PM Bad things about barbarians:

Low AC. Sure you have high hp, but you need them.
Low will save. Big reason paladins see high level play.
limited uses per day for class abilities. A fighter can use his feats anytime he needs them. A barbarian can end up rageless in a battle of attrition.
TheCobra
02-15-07, 06:48 PM Warblades are kind of like barbarians, but more powerful.

Though they have even lower Will saves...
Ghenesh
02-15-07, 06:52 PM Has it to be a base class? cause if you're taking PrCs into account the response is obvious: Frenzied Berserker.

As stated before a mounted Paladin oudamage almost everything, except some very specific builds.
SilverFoxKnows
02-15-07, 07:08 PM The biggest downsides I've found playing a Barbarian is that if you want to make the most of your Fast Movement your AC suffers. If a fight lasts longer than your Rage you're in trouble and the boost to your Will saves is only when you're Raging. I'm having a blast playing one, though.
SilverFoxKnows
02-15-07, 07:18 PM As stated before a mounted Paladin oudamage almost everything, except some very specific builds.

Doesn't do you any good underground, though. Terrain has played a huge part in our campaigns (tunnels, caverns, mountains, jungles, dense forests). A mounted lancer in our group wouldn't be able to bring that to bare too often. How big a part does environment play in your games? Just curious.
TheCobra
02-15-07, 07:26 PM Well, plenty of dungeons give you enough space to use a mount. Really, how often do you fight in 5-foot-wide tunnels?

And paladin mounts can get amazing if you use the unusual mount rules in the DMG. A dire lion mount at level 8! With 10 hit dice and 26 STR, the mount might be worth as much as the paladin at that level. Charge + pounce + share spells + rhino's rush is sweet. The same trick with an actual rhinoceros mount (which you can get at level 7) might even be better. As I understand it, though, you can't use a lance and have the mount attack as well, because of reach issues. Still, 3x damage for you and 2x for your mount ain't bad.
SilverFoxKnows
02-15-07, 07:54 PM Well, plenty of dungeons give you enough space to use a mount. Really, how often do you fight in 5-foot-wide tunnels?

Must be our DM. We've fought in quite a few places that weren't mount friendly. Twisty trails, dense undergrowth with limited visibility, vertical mine shaft, rooftops in a shanty town, a 20'x30' storage room. We have had fights in wide open caverns, flat fields and open streets. But we've had just as many where our foes were flying, shooting from rooftops and trees, or fleeing down narrow alleys. YMMV
TheCobra
02-15-07, 08:04 PM I can see various limiting situations coming up, certainly. But mount should rarely become completely useless. With the squeezing rules, a large mount can even follow you down that 5-foot-wide tunnel.

Also, paladin have the advantage of being able to call their mounts as a full-round action.
The_Shaman
02-15-07, 08:57 PM Technically, some mounts (afaik horses) don't want to go underground, period. Anyway, if your mount gets killed it's a bit tricky.

BTW, how's mounted paladin that much better than mounted barbarian? Were Cavaliers limited to lawful or something?
TheCobra
02-15-07, 09:00 PM Technically, some mounts (afaik horses) don't want to go underground, period.

I can't imagine that applying to a paladin's special mount.

BTW, how's mounted paladin that much better than mounted barbarian?

The mount class feature, especially when combined with unusual mounts. Spells.

Were Cavaliers limited to lawful or something?

There's that too.
BrazilRascal
02-15-07, 09:26 PM Warblades are kind of like barbarians, but more powerful.

Though they have even lower Will saves...

Unless they get 'Moment of Perfect Mind" at level 1 and get to make Will saves on par with the party cleric. Sure, they can't do it twice in a row...but if the enemy keeps trying dominate spells again and again to the exclusion of all else, he'll soon be hacked to pieces by the party.
TheCobra
02-15-07, 09:29 PM Unless they get 'Moment of Perfect Mind" at level 1 and get to make Will saves on par with the party cleric. Sure, they can't do it twice in a row...but if the enemy keeps trying dominate spells again and again to the exclusion of all else, he'll soon be hacked to pieces by the party.

That certainly does help, but it's a pretty limited defense. Warblades have to ready it, and can only use it once per encounter before they refresh.
Gideon_Gideonson
02-15-07, 11:13 PM Well, if whoever it is is really insistant on dominating you, simply move next to them. They hit you with Will save spell, and you AoO. Then, refresh and move, or refresh and attack, depending on what they do. Rinse and repeat. They'll change tactics before you go down.
TheCobra
02-15-07, 11:20 PM Well, if whoever it is is really insistant on dominating you, simply move next to them.

Good luck with that. :D Yes, if you can engage them in melee, you'll probably do okay (depending on the level, of course).

Remember, sometimes characters have to make more than one Will save per round. Swift action spells/abilities, multiple foes forcing Will saves each round, and so on.

Don't get me wrong, though. That counter is a great help.
Seerow
02-15-07, 11:23 PM Because Casting Defensively totally isn't a DC20 skillcheck, which is met easily starting around level 3. Right?
TheCobra
02-15-07, 11:26 PM Well, at level 3, I don't think too many arcane casters want to let a warblade make melee attacks against them. Period.

Druids and clerics are, of course, another matter. But moment of perfect mind does help a lot against hold person.
The_Shaman
02-16-07, 02:26 AM Hmm, a barbarian with a feat or two could go for, say, spellcasting harrier ;) I don't remember the requirements now, though. Also, as one of the few classes with no spell-likes at all, the derivatives of the mage-slayer feat might be nice if you want to bother spellcasters, hehe.

Generally, a barbarian can't often prevail against casters, but could wreak a lot of havoc.
Squirrelloid
02-16-07, 03:46 AM In regards to paladins, search the CharOp boards for "Supermount!" Halfling Paladin PrCs into a bunch of weird things - character ends up playing the mount, with his PC as a cohort, really. Wants to upgrade to a spiffy mount as fast as possible, such as a Griffon in mid levels. Ultimately you'll want a dragon. Because really, getting a dragon special mount is the only reason I'd play a Paladin in high levels. Flying Mounts = Awesome. (Unless you're a spellcaster, then you just fly. But I'm not even going to go there).

You know what makes a Paladin's Mount rock? As a special mount i believe it gets to use the Paladin's saves. This means Hold Monster on the paladin's flying mount probably doesnt send him hurtling to the ground.
ninjarabbit
02-16-07, 09:17 AM A small paladin can use a medium sized mount so space should not be a problem.

And even without a mount a paladin can do a good amount of damage and can keep up with or even outdamage a barbarian: smite, divine might, various spells, charging smite variant from PHB II.
Orchomenos
02-16-07, 11:16 AM What about a Barbarian... Were-Wolverine? You rage, you shapeshift, and... you rage again!
Willie the Duck
02-17-07, 01:29 AM Squirrelloid, mounted uber builds make a paladin powerful in high level builds. What gets them played at all is that, unlike most every other martial build, they don't get will-saved out of combat in the first round (divine grace becomes awesome with some +6 item).
xColapsco
02-20-07, 07:21 PM warblades are better to me than Barbarians

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JelloManEats 02-15-07, 05:26 PM	Looking for something that will out do/overpower a barbarian. also, what are some bad things about barbarians.
ninjarabbit 02-15-07, 05:43 PM	Personally I think a well optimized paladin can outdamage and outlast a barbarian. There's really nothing "bad" about a barbarian, the only real downside of being a barbarian is that you can't have a lawful alignment.
Willie the Duck 02-15-07, 06:31 PM	Bad things about barbarians: Low AC. Sure you have high hp, but you need them. Low will save. Big reason paladins see high level play. limited uses per day for class abilities. A fighter can use his feats anytime he needs them. A barbarian can end up rageless in a battle of attrition.
TheCobra 02-15-07, 06:48 PM	Warblades are kind of like barbarians, but more powerful. Though they have even lower Will saves...
Ghenesh 02-15-07, 06:52 PM	Has it to be a base class? cause if you're taking PrCs into account the response is obvious: Frenzied Berserker. As stated before a mounted Paladin oudamage almost everything, except some very specific builds.
SilverFoxKnows 02-15-07, 07:08 PM	The biggest downsides I've found playing a Barbarian is that if you want to make the most of your Fast Movement your AC suffers. If a fight lasts longer than your Rage you're in trouble and the boost to your Will saves is only when you're Raging. I'm having a blast playing one, though.
SilverFoxKnows 02-15-07, 07:18 PM	As stated before a mounted Paladin oudamage almost everything, except some very specific builds. Doesn't do you any good underground, though. Terrain has played a huge part in our campaigns (tunnels, caverns, mountains, jungles, dense forests). A mounted lancer in our group wouldn't be able to bring that to bare too often. How big a part does environment play in your games? Just curious.
TheCobra 02-15-07, 07:26 PM	Well, plenty of dungeons give you enough space to use a mount. Really, how often do you fight in 5-foot-wide tunnels? And paladin mounts can get amazing if you use the unusual mount rules in the DMG. A dire lion mount at level 8! With 10 hit dice and 26 STR, the mount might be worth as much as the paladin at that level. Charge + pounce + share spells + rhino's rush is sweet. The same trick with an actual rhinoceros mount (which you can get at level 7) might even be better. As I understand it, though, you can't use a lance and have the mount attack as well, because of reach issues. Still, 3x damage for you and 2x for your mount ain't bad.
SilverFoxKnows 02-15-07, 07:54 PM	Well, plenty of dungeons give you enough space to use a mount. Really, how often do you fight in 5-foot-wide tunnels? Must be our DM. We've fought in quite a few places that weren't mount friendly. Twisty trails, dense undergrowth with limited visibility, vertical mine shaft, rooftops in a shanty town, a 20'x30' storage room. We have had fights in wide open caverns, flat fields and open streets. But we've had just as many where our foes were flying, shooting from rooftops and trees, or fleeing down narrow alleys. YMMV
TheCobra 02-15-07, 08:04 PM	I can see various limiting situations coming up, certainly. But mount should rarely become completely useless. With the squeezing rules, a large mount can even follow you down that 5-foot-wide tunnel. Also, paladin have the advantage of being able to call their mounts as a full-round action.
The_Shaman 02-15-07, 08:57 PM	Technically, some mounts (afaik horses) don't want to go underground, period. Anyway, if your mount gets killed it's a bit tricky. BTW, how's mounted paladin that much better than mounted barbarian? Were Cavaliers limited to lawful or something?
TheCobra 02-15-07, 09:00 PM	Technically, some mounts (afaik horses) don't want to go underground, period. I can't imagine that applying to a paladin's special mount. BTW, how's mounted paladin that much better than mounted barbarian? The mount class feature, especially when combined with unusual mounts. Spells. Were Cavaliers limited to lawful or something? There's that too.
BrazilRascal 02-15-07, 09:26 PM	Warblades are kind of like barbarians, but more powerful. Though they have even lower Will saves... Unless they get 'Moment of Perfect Mind" at level 1 and get to make Will saves on par with the party cleric. Sure, they can't do it twice in a row...but if the enemy keeps trying dominate spells again and again to the exclusion of all else, he'll soon be hacked to pieces by the party.
TheCobra 02-15-07, 09:29 PM	Unless they get 'Moment of Perfect Mind" at level 1 and get to make Will saves on par with the party cleric. Sure, they can't do it twice in a row...but if the enemy keeps trying dominate spells again and again to the exclusion of all else, he'll soon be hacked to pieces by the party. That certainly does help, but it's a pretty limited defense. Warblades have to ready it, and can only use it once per encounter before they refresh.
Gideon_Gideonson 02-15-07, 11:13 PM	Well, if whoever it is is really insistant on dominating you, simply move next to them. They hit you with Will save spell, and you AoO. Then, refresh and move, or refresh and attack, depending on what they do. Rinse and repeat. They'll change tactics before you go down.
TheCobra 02-15-07, 11:20 PM	Well, if whoever it is is really insistant on dominating you, simply move next to them. Good luck with that. :D Yes, if you can engage them in melee, you'll probably do okay (depending on the level, of course). Remember, sometimes characters have to make more than one Will save per round. Swift action spells/abilities, multiple foes forcing Will saves each round, and so on. Don't get me wrong, though. That counter is a great help.
Seerow 02-15-07, 11:23 PM	Because Casting Defensively totally isn't a DC20 skillcheck, which is met easily starting around level 3. Right?
TheCobra 02-15-07, 11:26 PM	Well, at level 3, I don't think too many arcane casters want to let a warblade make melee attacks against them. Period. Druids and clerics are, of course, another matter. But moment of perfect mind does help a lot against hold person.
The_Shaman 02-16-07, 02:26 AM	Hmm, a barbarian with a feat or two could go for, say, spellcasting harrier ;) I don't remember the requirements now, though. Also, as one of the few classes with no spell-likes at all, the derivatives of the mage-slayer feat might be nice if you want to bother spellcasters, hehe. Generally, a barbarian can't often prevail against casters, but could wreak a lot of havoc.
Squirrelloid 02-16-07, 03:46 AM	In regards to paladins, search the CharOp boards for "Supermount!" Halfling Paladin PrCs into a bunch of weird things - character ends up playing the mount, with his PC as a cohort, really. Wants to upgrade to a spiffy mount as fast as possible, such as a Griffon in mid levels. Ultimately you'll want a dragon. Because really, getting a dragon special mount is the only reason I'd play a Paladin in high levels. Flying Mounts = Awesome. (Unless you're a spellcaster, then you just fly. But I'm not even going to go there). You know what makes a Paladin's Mount rock? As a special mount i believe it gets to use the Paladin's saves. This means Hold Monster on the paladin's flying mount probably doesnt send him hurtling to the ground.
ninjarabbit 02-16-07, 09:17 AM	A small paladin can use a medium sized mount so space should not be a problem. And even without a mount a paladin can do a good amount of damage and can keep up with or even outdamage a barbarian: smite, divine might, various spells, charging smite variant from PHB II.
Orchomenos 02-16-07, 11:16 AM	What about a Barbarian... Were-Wolverine? You rage, you shapeshift, and... you rage again!
Willie the Duck 02-17-07, 01:29 AM	Squirrelloid, mounted uber builds make a paladin powerful in high level builds. What gets them played at all is that, unlike most every other martial build, they don't get will-saved out of combat in the first round (divine grace becomes awesome with some +6 item).
xColapsco 02-20-07, 07:21 PM	warblades are better to me than Barbarians