Binder ToM, general thoughts [Archive] - Wizards Community

Binder ToM, general thoughts [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BoDiddilly
08-16-07, 10:08 PM I recently read through the Tomes of Magic at freinds house a couple of weeks ago and found myself very impressed with the binder class. Im thinking about playing one in an up coming campain and working them into a campain setting of my own.

But I cant seem to find anything relating to the binder here. I am very interested in hearing about how they have play tested, what opinions others have of the class. Maybe I have overlooked something. plz give some feeback or direction.
Ecureuil_Diabolique
08-16-07, 10:33 PM Most people from what I can tell like the Binder the most out of that book. I personally like it the most mechanically (because both the shadowcaster and truenamer didn't seem to be thought out properly) and you probably won't find a whole lot of binder material because it's rather well represented in the book itself.

I think on the D&D homepage (which is currently down) you can find a few vestiges in some articles. Sorry for the lack of links.
tombowings
08-17-07, 12:05 AM The binder is a fun and interesting class to play, and by far the best class out of Tome of Magic. You are likely have the most build in flavor of any class in a single adventuring group. Power wise, you are likely to be around a rogue, barbarian, or psychic warrior or you given level - but your party roll is more flexible than any of those classes.

Those are my thoughts.
QuarianRex
08-17-07, 12:44 AM Here are some interesting threads for binders.

Preliminary Binder Guide (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=605415&page=1)
Pact Magic Tricks/Combos/Builds (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=607826)
Pacts of ultimate destruction!!! (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-608491)

Tis a very interesting class, especially when you remember that all of you abilities are supernatural and so are immune to SR, dispelling, etc.

Also keep in mind that unless it says otherwise in a specific power there is no outward sign that you are the source of an effect. That means that you can strike down people with Focalor's Lightning Strike and then comment on the odd lightning storm with no one the wiser. Insert evil laugh here.
BoDiddilly
08-17-07, 01:14 AM Ok I can see us all coming to consensus over Binders superiority within the ToB and amazing flavor support. It was the deep flavor of the visages which first struck me with this and I was very displeased with the classes that followed. Shadow caster and Truename casters. There flavoring was decent but machanically them seemed to be nothing more then overly complicated regergitations of the standard arcane caster. More rubish to added lot of useless and redunant source material if you ask me.

My next character is looking to likely be a Hearty Dwarven Binder with relitively low Cha. As I see it the binder is only partially depended on his classes main ability score. A lower Cha will make my character a challange to play but with the right choice of visage I will still be op par with my party and with all those crazy signs and influences Im looking foward to roll. The Links for QuarianRex should help optimize if I need to. But right I mean to focus my build on fortitude and magic item effeincy. Visages will grant me magical arms and armor as well as possible feat and of course other tricks. All of which should free up a great deal of character resource in terms of feats and Magic gear.

It was a desire to add a new flavor to magic system in my campain that first brought me to the book itself.
Ecureuil_Diabolique I see you have intest in alternative magic as well and i look foward to ready that lenghty thread on rune magic soon
Sleepwalker13666
08-17-07, 08:46 AM Binder is definitely a good class, if you did'nt like the shadow caster, you might want to check out Tombowings Shadow Caster Rewrite (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=906555)
snakeman830
08-17-07, 10:27 AM Binder is awesome. I've noticed there are some good fixes for the shadowcaster out there, but I've yet to find a good fix for the truenamer.

Unfortuneatly, those two were cool ideas done horribly wrong (though the shadowcaster is at least somewhat playable, though very weak).

Pact and Shdow mgic are the only two chapters I use from that book. Pact Magic for everything in it and all of it's awesomness, and shdow magic for the items and creatures (and a couple of PrC's).

Okay, as for Binder. Things I love:

1. No MAD. Even Charisma isn't necessary.

2. Versatile. Each Vestige gives you a number of powers that are useful.

3. Scales with levels. As you go up in levels, your vestige-granted powers become more potent and the number of vestiges you can bind to you increases. You can also bind more powerful vestiges. Plus, unlike Incarnum, you have full access to magic items without limiting yourself.

4. Not set in stone. You can change your vestiges daily, so it's like having a warlock that can change his invocations each day. Plus, binders get more abilities.

Things I dislike:

1. There's too much to memorize, so you can't really play one without having the book open. For most people playing one, this is no problem. I, however, have to check it out from the library, so I can never play one.

Okay, so my only complaint isn't one that applies to most people that play them. Yeah, they are a freaking awesome class.
InkBlot
08-17-07, 03:27 PM visages visage Visages
It's vestige, not visage.

Vestige = A visible trace, evidence, or sign of something that once existed but exists or appears no more.

Visage = The face or facial expression of a person; countenance.

Visages will grant me magical arms and armor as well as possible feat and of course other tricks. All of which should free up a great deal of character resource in terms of feats and Magic gear.
I found that you can't rely on having any one particular vestige bound. For example, you can't say "oh, I don't have to buy armor; I'll just bind Savnok." What if you bind Malphas instead of Savnok? Then you're up a creek without a +1 chain shirt.

A lot of vestiges give you abilities that aid in melee combat. With Malphas you can turn invisible for a guaranteed sudden strike once every 5 rounds. Even with Buer, who's abilities make you a tracking healbot, the fast healing and healer's gift ensure you'll never fall to HP damage.

I'm currently playing a binder. He has a good suite of detective skills (most of which are binder class skills) and a high strength. I carefully chose his items to be useful in a variety of situations; a couple of cheap wands for when he's bound to Karsus, a rod with some utility powers, a masterwork heavy mace, a darkwood heavy shield, and a masterwork chain shirt.

Expel Vestige helps a lot. It helps ensure that I'll have exactly the vestige I need. For example, this week my binder and his adventuring party stormed a temple in the jungles. I bound Buer in the morning to help find our way there safely, and when we were fighting lizardfolk and baby black dragons her fast healing and healing gift kept the whole party alive (we really got soundly thrashed). After actually getting inside the temple, we found a safe spot, I expelled Buer, and bound Malphas. Using Malphas's spy birds, I made sure there weren't any more lizardfolk guards, then flew down all the open corridors and found a big treasure room.

It was also so very awesome, since none of the other players (neither in nor out of character) had much experience with pact magic, I got to majorly creep them out by roleplaying the pact making process.
BoDiddilly
08-25-07, 12:53 PM Ok this pretty much a bump sense I dont come on these threads very often and I dont want to look though the multiverse to find this thread again tomarrow.

Right now Im not sure which vestiges Ill use. Im thinking Savnod and Dalhver Nar* will make a good combo once I leveled. They make me into a hardy meat shield who can move allies and redirect damage to enemies. Sense we already have a speciallized healer there is no need for buer, otherwise he would be an obvious swop out options. Ill be starting at 7th lvl as it turns out, using who know what until I can use 2 vestiges at lvl 8. Ill probably just go with which ever vestige Ill want to roll play until though I would like to try Naberius* in town just once.
bkdubs123
08-25-07, 01:48 PM Naberius is so much fun!

Also, definitely check out the "Let's Make some New Vestiges!" Its absolutely huge, and cram packed filled with homebrow Vestiges. I myself have at least 4 or 5 in there, on pages 4-6. Sure there's Kingdom Hearts Vestiges, and there's definitely a LOT of Cthuulu Vestiges, but there are more serious ones as well.

If you plan on using a lot of Homebrew Vestiges you should probably play a "Seals Known" variant and perhaps start out only knowing 3 Seals and learning a new one everytime you level up.
BoDiddilly
08-25-07, 11:30 PM OH this awsome thanx buds
InkBlot
08-26-07, 12:18 AM If you plan on using a lot of Homebrew Vestiges you should probably play a "Seals Known" variant and perhaps start out only knowing 3 Seals and learning a new one everytime you level up.
I was thinking of using that variant next time I play a binder, because it seemed liked all binders would be too similar otherwise. What stats you focus on and what feats you take can make a difference, but not enough in my opinion.
bkdubs123
08-26-07, 09:54 AM Hey no problem man. Have fun with the Binder!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BoDiddilly 08-16-07, 10:08 PM	I recently read through the Tomes of Magic at freinds house a couple of weeks ago and found myself very impressed with the binder class. Im thinking about playing one in an up coming campain and working them into a campain setting of my own. But I cant seem to find anything relating to the binder here. I am very interested in hearing about how they have play tested, what opinions others have of the class. Maybe I have overlooked something. plz give some feeback or direction.
Ecureuil_Diabolique 08-16-07, 10:33 PM	Most people from what I can tell like the Binder the most out of that book. I personally like it the most mechanically (because both the shadowcaster and truenamer didn't seem to be thought out properly) and you probably won't find a whole lot of binder material because it's rather well represented in the book itself. I think on the D&D homepage (which is currently down) you can find a few vestiges in some articles. Sorry for the lack of links.
tombowings 08-17-07, 12:05 AM	The binder is a fun and interesting class to play, and by far the best class out of Tome of Magic. You are likely have the most build in flavor of any class in a single adventuring group. Power wise, you are likely to be around a rogue, barbarian, or psychic warrior or you given level - but your party roll is more flexible than any of those classes. Those are my thoughts.
QuarianRex 08-17-07, 12:44 AM	Here are some interesting threads for binders. Preliminary Binder Guide (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=605415&page=1) Pact Magic Tricks/Combos/Builds (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=607826) Pacts of ultimate destruction!!! (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-608491) Tis a very interesting class, especially when you remember that all of you abilities are supernatural and so are immune to SR, dispelling, etc. Also keep in mind that unless it says otherwise in a specific power there is no outward sign that you are the source of an effect. That means that you can strike down people with Focalor's Lightning Strike and then comment on the odd lightning storm with no one the wiser. Insert evil laugh here.
BoDiddilly 08-17-07, 01:14 AM	Ok I can see us all coming to consensus over Binders superiority within the ToB and amazing flavor support. It was the deep flavor of the visages which first struck me with this and I was very displeased with the classes that followed. Shadow caster and Truename casters. There flavoring was decent but machanically them seemed to be nothing more then overly complicated regergitations of the standard arcane caster. More rubish to added lot of useless and redunant source material if you ask me. My next character is looking to likely be a Hearty Dwarven Binder with relitively low Cha. As I see it the binder is only partially depended on his classes main ability score. A lower Cha will make my character a challange to play but with the right choice of visage I will still be op par with my party and with all those crazy signs and influences Im looking foward to roll. The Links for QuarianRex should help optimize if I need to. But right I mean to focus my build on fortitude and magic item effeincy. Visages will grant me magical arms and armor as well as possible feat and of course other tricks. All of which should free up a great deal of character resource in terms of feats and Magic gear. It was a desire to add a new flavor to magic system in my campain that first brought me to the book itself. Ecureuil_Diabolique I see you have intest in alternative magic as well and i look foward to ready that lenghty thread on rune magic soon
Sleepwalker13666 08-17-07, 08:46 AM	Binder is definitely a good class, if you did'nt like the shadow caster, you might want to check out Tombowings Shadow Caster Rewrite (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=906555)
snakeman830 08-17-07, 10:27 AM	Binder is awesome. I've noticed there are some good fixes for the shadowcaster out there, but I've yet to find a good fix for the truenamer. Unfortuneatly, those two were cool ideas done horribly wrong (though the shadowcaster is at least somewhat playable, though very weak). Pact and Shdow mgic are the only two chapters I use from that book. Pact Magic for everything in it and all of it's awesomness, and shdow magic for the items and creatures (and a couple of PrC's). Okay, as for Binder. Things I love: 1. No MAD. Even Charisma isn't necessary. 2. Versatile. Each Vestige gives you a number of powers that are useful. 3. Scales with levels. As you go up in levels, your vestige-granted powers become more potent and the number of vestiges you can bind to you increases. You can also bind more powerful vestiges. Plus, unlike Incarnum, you have full access to magic items without limiting yourself. 4. Not set in stone. You can change your vestiges daily, so it's like having a warlock that can change his invocations each day. Plus, binders get more abilities. Things I dislike: 1. There's too much to memorize, so you can't really play one without having the book open. For most people playing one, this is no problem. I, however, have to check it out from the library, so I can never play one. Okay, so my only complaint isn't one that applies to most people that play them. Yeah, they are a freaking awesome class.
InkBlot 08-17-07, 03:27 PM	visages visage Visages It's vestige, not visage. Vestige = A visible trace, evidence, or sign of something that once existed but exists or appears no more. Visage = The face or facial expression of a person; countenance. Visages will grant me magical arms and armor as well as possible feat and of course other tricks. All of which should free up a great deal of character resource in terms of feats and Magic gear. I found that you can't rely on having any one particular vestige bound. For example, you can't say "oh, I don't have to buy armor; I'll just bind Savnok." What if you bind Malphas instead of Savnok? Then you're up a creek without a +1 chain shirt. A lot of vestiges give you abilities that aid in melee combat. With Malphas you can turn invisible for a guaranteed sudden strike once every 5 rounds. Even with Buer, who's abilities make you a tracking healbot, the fast healing and healer's gift ensure you'll never fall to HP damage. I'm currently playing a binder. He has a good suite of detective skills (most of which are binder class skills) and a high strength. I carefully chose his items to be useful in a variety of situations; a couple of cheap wands for when he's bound to Karsus, a rod with some utility powers, a masterwork heavy mace, a darkwood heavy shield, and a masterwork chain shirt. Expel Vestige helps a lot. It helps ensure that I'll have exactly the vestige I need. For example, this week my binder and his adventuring party stormed a temple in the jungles. I bound Buer in the morning to help find our way there safely, and when we were fighting lizardfolk and baby black dragons her fast healing and healing gift kept the whole party alive (we really got soundly thrashed). After actually getting inside the temple, we found a safe spot, I expelled Buer, and bound Malphas. Using Malphas's spy birds, I made sure there weren't any more lizardfolk guards, then flew down all the open corridors and found a big treasure room. It was also so very awesome, since none of the other players (neither in nor out of character) had much experience with pact magic, I got to majorly creep them out by roleplaying the pact making process.
BoDiddilly 08-25-07, 12:53 PM	Ok this pretty much a bump sense I dont come on these threads very often and I dont want to look though the multiverse to find this thread again tomarrow. Right now Im not sure which vestiges Ill use. Im thinking Savnod and Dalhver Nar* will make a good combo once I leveled. They make me into a hardy meat shield who can move allies and redirect damage to enemies. Sense we already have a speciallized healer there is no need for buer, otherwise he would be an obvious swop out options. Ill be starting at 7th lvl as it turns out, using who know what until I can use 2 vestiges at lvl 8. Ill probably just go with which ever vestige Ill want to roll play until though I would like to try Naberius* in town just once.
bkdubs123 08-25-07, 01:48 PM	Naberius is so much fun! Also, definitely check out the "Let's Make some New Vestiges!" Its absolutely huge, and cram packed filled with homebrow Vestiges. I myself have at least 4 or 5 in there, on pages 4-6. Sure there's Kingdom Hearts Vestiges, and there's definitely a LOT of Cthuulu Vestiges, but there are more serious ones as well. If you plan on using a lot of Homebrew Vestiges you should probably play a "Seals Known" variant and perhaps start out only knowing 3 Seals and learning a new one everytime you level up.
BoDiddilly 08-25-07, 11:30 PM	OH this awsome thanx buds
InkBlot 08-26-07, 12:18 AM	If you plan on using a lot of Homebrew Vestiges you should probably play a "Seals Known" variant and perhaps start out only knowing 3 Seals and learning a new one everytime you level up. I was thinking of using that variant next time I play a binder, because it seemed liked all binders would be too similar otherwise. What stats you focus on and what feats you take can make a difference, but not enough in my opinion.
bkdubs123 08-26-07, 09:54 AM	Hey no problem man. Have fun with the Binder!