Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wrathamon 08-31-06, 08:13 PM	Curious, if any of you feel that a Binder/Warlock Prc that extends both Warlock evocations and EB progression and Binder Vestiges would be overpowered? Would it be over/underpowered if it was setup like EK? Where all it does is progress? Example A 10 level PRC with d8 HD, 2 skills per level, one or two good saves, no special abilities other than progression or maybe a couple minor abilities every other level (or would that put it over the top)? thoughts?
Milo HoBo 08-31-06, 08:35 PM	I would like to see it. Normally, I don't think that PrC's should give full advancement for spellcasting. The only exception is Mystic theurge types which this would fall under.
Wrathamon 09-01-06, 12:22 AM	Maybe something like this for starters. Invoker of the Eternal Soul Born to be a conduit for vestiges a warlock can learn that pact magic can be a boon to his innate abilities. Learning that a soul born of eldritch power can be harnessed and shaped into a binding seal, He becomes a living conduit for binding vestiges. In turn these vestiges fuel his fiendish eldritch might. entry requirements Alignment: Any nongood Feat Ability Focus, Improved Binding Spell or Spell-like Abilities: ability to manifest a 2d6 Eldritch Blast Special: Ability to bind a 3rd level vestige Hit Dice: d6 Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Ability 1. 0 0 0 2 Soul Seal / Soul Binding +1 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 2. 1 0 0 3 -------- / Soul Binding +2 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 3. 2 1 1 3 Expel Vestige / Soul Binding +3 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 4. 3 1 1 4 -------- Soul Binding +4 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 5. 3 1 1 4 Quicken Bind / Soul Binding +5 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 6. 4 2 2 5 -------- / Soul Binding +6 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 7. 5 2 2 5 -------- / Soul Binding +7 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 8. 6 2 2 6 Soul Power / Soul Binding +8 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 9. 6 3 3 6 -------- / Soul Binding +9 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 10. 7 3 3 7 Vestige blast / Soul Binding +10 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class Class Skills: The class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge: Arcana (Int), Knowledge: The Planes (Int), Knowledge: Religion (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Int). Skills Points at 1st level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier. Soul Seal A ??? doesn’t need to draw a seal to summon a vestige. Their soul is used to mimic the effects of a seal. When a ??? attempts to summon a vestige their skin glows as if the seal of the vestige is burning through their body from the inside. The ??? does not need to wait for the vestige to appear to bind it. You can make a bind attempt as normal except with the exception that if a natural 1 is rolled on the bind check the vestige summoned was the wrong one. A Vestige is randomly bound for 24 hours and you are automatically under its influence. going to add more and clarify this better. The main thing is that the binder doesnt have to physical do anything to bind a vestige Quicken Soul Bind Once per day you may bind a vestige as a swift action. Expel Vestige You gain this feat as a bonus feat. Soul Power When a vestige is bound you may empower a spell-like ability as a free action 2/day. Vestige Blast As a swift action a ??? can expel a bound vestige to power their Eldritch Blast. The Eldritch blast gains a number of dice equal to bound vestiges level + a bonus to damage equal to the Soul Binding bonus/2. This can be done once per day and the vestige expelled in this manor cannot be bound again for 48 hours. thanks to demonic_dante for the name thanks to demonic_dante and Milo Hobo for the feedback
Milo HoBo 09-01-06, 03:21 PM	Why non-good? Both Warlocks and Binders can be good. Due to the wording, one doesn't have to be a Warlock. Spell-like abilities can be obtained by class features (like lay-on-hands), racial features, and even feats (like Communicator from C.Arcane). Also the Vestige requirements can be obtained through two feats. Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige. This requirement can be obtained in first level. It looks like you want this to be a PrC for a 10th level character, but my suggestion is to lower down to this: 1) Eldritch Blast 2d6 2) Ability to bind 3rd level Vestiges 3) Improved Binding feat 4) Ability Focus This requires that the character actually have both 3 levels in Warlock and 3 levels in Binder. Thus, at 7th level they would be able to take this PrC. They can't just have the Bind Vestige feat tree because Improved Binding requires Soul Binding. Anyways this will make cross-classing the two much more appealing as it can be done sooner, making up for lost power quicker. P.S. About the name and flavor text. Play up the idea about the Warlocks ancestors making Pacts with extra-planar creatures effecting their art of making Pacts with Vestiges. Maybe give them Skilled Pact Making and Ignore Special Requirement for free during the progression.
Wrathamon 09-01-06, 09:54 PM	you pretty much nailed what I was thinking... now in play do you think the amount of at will abilities may be too much? I havent had much time to worry about the actual build. this is just for a player for my game and he was asking if he could do this. I am more concerned with the impact this combination might have on the game. I am not that familiar with the binder. I didn't even know about the feats. Thanks for showing me that.
AsimovValentin 09-01-06, 10:03 PM	I like it...it's not too many abilities, because it's still not granting any extra actions. Because I know for certain that most invocations are standard actions, and I only have a vague remembrance of binder abilities, but I assume they were mostly usable as standard actions...a fire-breath one rings a bell, and one with horns...You can't possibly use all of those in the same round.
Milo HoBo 09-01-06, 11:24 PM	I like it...it's not too many abilities, because it's still not granting any extra actions. Because I know for certain that most invocations are standard actions, and I only have a vague remembrance of binder abilities, but I assume they were mostly usable as standard actions...a fire-breath one rings a bell, and one with horns...You can't possibly use all of those in the same round.Exactly. With only 1 standard action a turn you will find that you won't overpowered. However, you have something to do while you wait for your more iconic Vestige powers charge back up. The only thing to worry about is this. It helps eliminate the Warlocks down-fall (Spell resistance) as well as help eliminate the Binders down-fall (recharge time). Since Improved Binding is part of the prerequisits there isn't any way to increase you Binder level back up to your hit die and I don't think that Practiced Caster effects Warlocks, so this may even out the above problem.
Wrathamon 09-02-06, 02:51 PM	Well sounds like there is an interest beyond my game so when I get some free time I will try and make something "more" playable and interesting and post it soon.
Archangel62 09-02-06, 02:54 PM	The idea of nongood can work if you're going to be following the principles of an animus mage or something like that.
Frozen Yakman 09-02-06, 03:14 PM	Why not just use the Anima Mage with some tweaking? Vestige Metamagic allows you to replenish the uses of your [Metamagic] Spell-like Ability feats and bam you got yourself a PrC.
Darth Sephiroth 09-02-06, 06:46 PM	Perhaps you could just come up with somethign like the feats for the Monk and Paladin that give you benefits with other classes
utilitarian 09-02-06, 07:35 PM	Aye, I should think it wouldn't be too hard to work out an Anima Mage variant for warlocks, I like the suggested idea of gaining additional SLA metamagic.
demonic_dante 09-02-06, 09:43 PM	If you are going to make a binder/warlock prc you have to remember that neither class is really a primary caster. They both focus on other things, and as such simply giving them improved soul binding and invocation gain makes the prestige class underpowered. For an example of this look at anima mage, even when grouped with a full caster extra abilities were added. Take into account that under normal circumstances you can only use a single ability from one of the two classes per round this is severely underpowered. Something similar to the metamagic (which would have to effect either spell-like or supernatural abilities) is a good idea, particularly quicken, which would allow a true combination of abilities. Also (even though I am incredibly tired and I have no idea whether or not this is balanced) and ability that slowly speeds up the down time(5 rounds) of binder abilities (to make them more like the warlocks), hence truly combining the class. More to come because this looks really good. The ramblings of Demonic_Dante
Wrathamon 09-03-06, 01:17 AM	I added some stuff to it. Let me know what you think. It still needs a lotof work. I need to replace arcane caster progression with somehting that describes warlock abilities. sleepy now.
Milo HoBo 09-04-06, 06:14 AM	:bump: Don't be too surprised. I like it alot.
Wrathamon 09-04-06, 12:05 PM	I also like the Feat idea where levels of binder stack with Warlock to determine Eldritch blast damage and warlock levels stack with Binder for purposes of Soul Binder bonus. But, that doesnt really help with their psuedo spell casting progression.
demonic_dante 09-07-06, 06:23 PM	Thats a pretty good prc, but I still feel it is slightly underpowered due to each classes non-primary caster style.
demonic_dante 09-07-06, 07:05 PM	To balance the power you could add a damage reduction progression (reduced of course) and a pact augmentation progression (maybe a fiendish pact augmentation that provides certain demonic or devilish traits)
demonic_dante 09-07-06, 07:07 PM	how about Invoker of the eternal soul for the name.
Wrathamon 09-07-06, 08:52 PM	how about Invoker of the eternal soul for the name. done
Wrathamon 09-07-06, 09:40 PM	To balance the power you could add a damage reduction progression (reduced of course) and a pact augmentation progression (maybe a fiendish pact augmentation that provides certain demonic or devilish traits) We are going to playtest it this coming week so we will see.
Archangel62 09-07-06, 10:11 PM	Well...maybe this is a silly idea but what about having it where you drop certain vestige powers (a la the animus mage) to do one of the following 1) Extra 2d6 damage 2) Add a secondary effect (to be determined) 3) Get a +4 bonus to overcome SR 5) +2 to hit
Wrathamon 09-07-06, 10:43 PM	at what level would you suggest these abilities are gained? Should it scale based on the vestige bound?
demonic_dante 09-08-06, 05:21 PM	at what level would you suggest these abilities are gained? Should it scale based on the vestige bound? I would say add it at 2nd level and make it scales as follows: +1d6 eldritch blast every three levels in the class(2nd, 5th, 8th) +1 to overcome spell resistance every other level in the class I don't think a bonus to hit is necessary, afterall touch attacks are easy enough.
Wrathamon 09-08-06, 05:48 PM	Break the Vestige Blast class ability they get at level 10 into smaller chunks and spread them out every 2 levels or so and give them the option to do damage or overcome SR?
demonic_dante 09-08-06, 08:01 PM	Break the Vestige Blast class ability they get at level 10 into smaller chunks and spread them out every 2 levels or so and give them the option to do damage or overcome SR? I spread out the bonuses from the ability thought of by Archangel62 into something that scaled. It doesn't take away the goodness of the last ability and it still only gives +3d6 damage or +5 to overcome spell resistance (which is one more than given by archangel). The prestige class as I see it would look like this. Invoker of the Eternal Souls Born to be a conduit for vestiges a warlock can learn that pact magic can be a boon to his innate abilities. Learning that a soul born of eldritch power can be harnessed and shaped into a binding seal, He becomes a living conduit for binding vestiges. In turn these vestiges fuel his fiendish eldritch might. entry requirements Alignment: Any nongood Feat Ability Focus, Improved Binding Spell or Spell-like Abilities: ability to manifest a 2d6 Eldritch Blast Special: Ability to bind a 3rd level vestige Hit Dice: d6 Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Ability 1. 0 0 0 2 Soul Seal / Soul Binding +1 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 2. 1 0 0 3 / Soul Binding +2 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 3. 2 1 1 3 Expel Vestige / Soul Binding +3 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 4. 3 1 1 4 DR +1/cold iron / Soul Binding +4 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 5. 3 1 1 4 Quicken Bind / Soul Binding +5 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 6. 4 2 2 5 Fiendish Pact Augmentation / Soul Binding +6 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 7. 5 2 2 5 DR +1/cold iron / Soul Binding +7 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 8. 6 2 2 6 Soul Power / Soul Binding +8 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 9. 6 3 3 6 Fiendish Pact Augmentation / Soul Binding +9 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 10. 7 3 3 7 Vestige blast / Soul Binding +10 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class Class Skills: The class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge: Arcana (Int), Knowledge: The Planes (Int), Knowledge: Religion (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Int). Skills Points at 1st level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier. Soul Seal A ??? doesn’t need to draw a seal to summon a vestige. Their soul is used to mimic the effects of a seal. When a ??? attempts to summon a vestige their skin glows as if the seal of the vestige is burning through their body from the inside. The ??? does not need to wait for the vestige to appear to bind it. You can make a bind attempt as normal except with the exception that if a natural 1 is rolled on the bind check the vestige summoned was the wrong one. A Vestige is randomly bound for 24 hours and you are automatically under its influence. going to add more and clarify this better. The main thing is that the binder doesnt have to physical do anything to bind a vestige Expel Vestige You gain this feat as a bonus feat. DR +1/cold iron The Invoker of the Eternal Souls gains DR +1/cold iron at the indicated levels, this stacks with DR gained from other sources (such as the Warlock class. Quicken Soul Bind Once per day you may bind a vestige as a swift action Fiendish Pact Augmentation The power you can draw from your vestiges is greater, however, it is twisted and fiendish. You gain an additional use of the pact augmentation ability at the indicated levels. The following abilities are also added to the list: telepathy (out to 30ft.), see in darkness (the Invoker gains darkvision 60ft. or extends their darkvision by 30ft.). If see in darkness is taken twice the Invoker can see in magical darkness as well. Soul Power When a vestige is bound you may empower a spell-like ability as a free action 2/day. Vestige Blast As a swift action a ??? can expel a bound vestige to power their Eldritch Blast. The Eldritch blast gains a number of dice equal to bound vestiges level + a bonus to damage equal to the Soul Binding bonus/2. This can be done once per day and the vestige expelled in this manor cannot be bound again for 48 hours. This may be a little powerful (I wouldn't know without play testing but I think it is pretty good).
Wrathamon 09-08-06, 08:18 PM	now it feels a bit too powerful me thinks. I ask myself... Why wouldnt a blaster warlock take this prestige class? I can only think because you have to take 3 lvls of binder so it slows your EB progression, but in the end you net more damage. How about this? Invoker of the Eternal Souls Born to be a conduit for vestiges a warlock can learn that pact magic can be a boon to his innate abilities. Learning that a soul born of eldritch power can be harnessed and shaped into a binding seal, He becomes a living conduit for binding vestiges. In turn these vestiges fuel his fiendish eldritch might. entry requirements Alignment: Any nongood Feat Ability Focus, Improved Binding Spell or Spell-like Abilities: ability to manifest a 2d6 Eldritch Blast Special: Ability to bind a 3rd level vestige Hit Dice: d6 Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Ability 1. 0 0 0 2 Soul Seal / Soul Binding +1 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 2. 1 0 0 3 Expel Vestige / Soul Binding +9 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 3. 2 1 1 3 Quicken Summon / Soul Binding +3 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 4. 3 1 1 4 Exploit Vestige / Soul Binding +4 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 5. 3 1 1 4 Soul Power (1/day) / Soul Binding +5 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 6. 4 2 2 5 Quicken Bind (1/day) / Soul Binding +6 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 7. 5 2 2 5 Exploit Vestige / Soul Binding +7 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 8. 6 2 2 6 Soul Power (3/day) / Soul Binding +8 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 9. 6 3 3 6 Quicken Bind (2/day) / Soul Binding +9 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 10. 7 3 3 7 Vestige blast / Soul Binding +10 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class Class Skills: The class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge: Arcana (Int), Knowledge: The Planes (Int), Knowledge: Religion (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Int). Skills Points at 1st level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier. Soul Seal A Invoker of the Eternal Souls doesn’t need to draw a seal to summon a vestige. Their soul is used to mimic the effects of a seal. When the Invoker attempts to summon a vestige, as a standard action, their skin glows as if the seal of the vestige is burning through their body from the inside. The Invoker does not make a Bind check as normal, you make a bind check as a full-round action to see if the vestige summoned is the correct one in addition to seeing how strong the pact is or not. The Invoker takes a -10 penalty to this check. If a natural 1 is rolled on the check the vestige summoned is the wrong one. A Vestige of of the same level or lower is randomly bound for 24 hours, the Invoker is concidered to have made a poor pact and the vestige cannot be expelled even with the Expel Vestige feat. The Invoker may try to quicken the bind by taking a -15 penalty to the bind check to make the bind a standard action. Expel Vestige You gain this feat as a bonus feat. Exploit Vestige When you bind a vestige you can use it's power to boost your own. With this ability you can choose to forego gaining one of the vestige's granted abilitises im order to gain a bonus to either your eldritch damage or all caster level checks. The Invoker of the Eternal Souls can either deal +1d6 damage with his eldritch blast every three class levels (4th and 8th), or +1 to caster level checks every two class levels. You decide which ability to forego before making the binding check, and only one ability can be used to gain these benefits per day. You gain a -5 penalty on the binding check when using this ability. If you make a good pact you gain the benefit of this ability, if you make a bad pact you do not gain the benefits of this ability but still lose the ability for the day. Quicken Summon The Invoker can now summon a vestige, as part of a Soul Bind, as a move action. This allows the Invoker to summon a vesitge and bind it as a full-round action taking the normal penalties as stated in the Soul Seal class feature. Quicken Soul Bind Once per day you may bind a vestige as a swift action. This increases to 2 times per day at 9th level. Soul Power When a vestige is bound you may empower a spell-like ability as a free action 1/day. This number of times per day increases to 2/day at 8th level. Vestige Blast As a swift action a The Invoker of the Eternal Souls can expel a bound vestige to power their Eldritch Blast. The Eldritch blast gains a number of dice equal to bound vestiges level + a bonus to damage equal to the Soul Binding bonus/2. This can be done once per day and the vestige expelled in this manor cannot be bound again for 48 hours.
demonic_dante 09-08-06, 08:30 PM	That's true. What if I drop the exploit vestige ability. That lowers the blast power. I think the addition of the DR and Fiendish pact augmentation blends the two classes well and without the exploit vestige ability it stands out more from the anima mage (originality is always good)
Wrathamon 09-08-06, 08:44 PM	I left the Exploit Vestige in but only twice or we can replace it with the Fiendish Augmentation... but not all warlocks are fiendish (fey?) I havent played a binder so I am trying to visualize the Fiendish Augmentation effect in play? Again why play a Binder? What is a binder giving up? What is the Warlock giving up? That is why i didnt care for the DR boost. Fluff it is easy to explain why this PRC doesnt get it while both binder and warlocks get DR... opening up the soul to vestiges weakens their ability to resist physical damage or something along those lines. I think the expel vestige as a bonus feat is almost required. I re-wrote Soul Seal... let me know what you think. I was thinking that maybe this class always has poor pacts, but I don't know.
demonic_dante 09-09-06, 01:30 PM	the re-write of soul seal is good but I think it doesn't really add much to the character (it isn't that hard to draw a seal). It might be handy if the Invoker could ignore special requirements while doing so. Also the -10 to binding checks may be a little hefty, as a player I wouldn't like failing all my binding checks (you can't act naturally all the time), a good solution could be to reduce it as you gain levels (something like the penalty is reduced by 1 every level or every other level). In my mind you made exploit vestige worse. As I read it you can drop two vestige abilities and gain either both eldritch damage and a bonus against spell resistance or one of them twice (+4d6 damage). If you took out the second exploit vestige it would make more reasonable. Then again, it should probably just be lost all together because the warlock isn't losing blast dmg if it is included (also lets be original). Also many of the abilities are to do with quickening the binding proccess, which I don't think is extremely useful. I think quicken summon should be removed and soul seal shouldn't speed up the binding (makes some room for no special requirements). quicken summon could be replaced with a bonus feat (I find both classes hunger for feats). Instead of exploit vestige wef could add 1 bonus feat at later levels and maybe an ability to quicken the recharge time of binders. As for what warlocks and binders lose heres a list: Binders: pact augmentation, soul guardian (which actually gets pretty good), bonus feats. Warlock: fast healing, DR, energy resistance, and imbue item (which is a very handy ability.
Wrathamon 09-09-06, 02:09 PM	the re-write of soul seal is good but I think it doesn't really add much to the character (it isn't that hard to draw a seal). It might be handy if the Invoker could ignore special requirements while doing so. Also the -10 to binding checks may be a little hefty, as a player I wouldn't like failing all my binding checks (you can't act naturally all the time), a good solution could be to reduce it as you gain levels (something like the penalty is reduced by 1 every level or every other level). It wasnt the fact that it was easy, it's the fact that it takes time. This lowers the time to bind to an in combat action where before it was out of combat. The -10 is the normal penalty to a bind check. You can still perform the normal bind check and not take a penatly. In my mind you made exploit vestige worse. As I read it you can drop two vestige abilities and gain either both eldritch damage and a bonus against spell resistance or one of them twice (+4d6 damage). If you took out the second exploit vestige it would make more reasonable. Then again, it should probably just be lost all together because the warlock isn't losing blast dmg if it is included (also lets be original). It is the same expect only twice instead of three times. I agree thou I wasnt a fan of this to begin with. Lets modify it. Also many of the abilities are to do with quickening the binding proccess, which I don't think is extremely useful. I think quicken summon should be removed and soul seal shouldn't speed up the binding (makes some room for no special requirements). quicken summon could be replaced with a bonus feat (I find both classes hunger for feats). Instead of exploit vestige wef could add 1 bonus feat at later levels and maybe an ability to quicken the recharge time of binders. Most of the complaints I heard on binders was the fact it took so long to bind a vestige. This is different approach. I am also not a fan of bonus feats. I like the idea of a recharge time for binders what did you have in mind? As for what warlocks and binders lose heres a list: Binders: pact augmentation, soul guardian (which actually gets pretty good), bonus feats. Warlock: fast healing, DR, energy resistance, and imbue item (which is a very handy ability We could replace the exploit vestige text with something similiar to the Soul Guardian... Soul Prisoner or Soul Slave.
demonic_dante 09-09-06, 11:57 PM	It is the same expect only twice instead of three times. I agree thou I wasnt a fan of this to begin with. Lets modify it. What I meant was that the fact that you listed it twice made it seem like you could give up two abilties and gain the bonus twice. It wasnt the fact that it was easy, it's the fact that it takes time. This lowers the time to bind to an in combat action where before it was out of combat. The -10 is the normal penalty to a bind check. You can still perform the normal bind check and not take a penatly. It still takes a standard action (to summon) and a full round (to argue about whether or not the pact is good or bad) which isnt very combat efficient. Also at most you could do this twice a day (starting vestiges and after expel vestige). I am also of the opinion that one of the key parts of many if not all casting type classes is prep. You must plan what to prepare for the day, or what to learn. It is the same with binding, learn what to be versatile. Also having to adjust gives way to some of the most imaginative fun gameplay out there. I am also not a fan of bonus feats. I like the idea of a recharge time for binders what did you have in mind? Why dont you like bonus feats, they are so nifty? What I meant is that instead of 5 rounds to recharge certain abilities it is 4 or 3 rounds. This is because every round matters in combat and being able to bring that useful ability to bear one extra time can help. We could replace the exploit vestige text with something similiar to the Soul Guardian... Soul Prisoner or Soul Slave. I like the sound of that. But what would they do? oooh soul slave gives you a permanent unseen servant as long as a vestige is bound :D . P.S. I left out that binders lose their d8 hit die.
demonic_dante 09-11-06, 04:36 PM	bump :bump:
demonic_dante 09-14-06, 05:50 PM	once more :bump: :bump:
journeyman777 09-14-06, 07:11 PM	Soul Seal A Invoker of the Eternal Souls doesn’t need to draw a seal to summon a vestige. Their soul is used to mimic the effects of a seal. When the Invoker attempts to summon a vestige, as a standard action, their skin glows as if the seal of the vestige is burning through their body from the inside. The Invoker does not make a Bind check as normal, you make a bind check as a full-round action to see if the vestige summoned is the correct one in addition to seeing how strong the pact is or not. The Invoker takes a -10 penalty to this check. If a natural 1 is rolled on the check the vestige summoned is the wrong one. A Vestige of of the same level or lower is randomly bound for 24 hours, the Invoker is concidered to have made a poor pact and the vestige cannot be expelled even with the Expel Vestige feat.IMHO and all that, but this takes half the fun out of playing a binder. The manifestions are great flavor and really lend themselves to the secretive nature of the class. Second, speeding up the binding process removes one of the main limitations on binders and reducing their cooldown time pretty much eliminates the other. These features would arguably make this better than advancing as a straight binder even if it didn't advance warlock invocations. (slight overstatement, but not by all that much) Third, given the "pick any vestige from the entire list each day" nature of binding, access to binding all but removes the warlock's main limitation (invocations known). In short, I think the synergies between these two classes are quite strong already and your proposed class looks to be more powerful than a straight binder or straight warlock (not what a theurge class is supposed to be). I suggest you tone it down a bit.
Wrathamon 09-15-06, 12:39 AM	The original was just a MT... but everyone said that was too weak. What would you suggest? I currently feel it was too powerful by adding in the other benefits, but I do agree it needed something. I think I will tone down the exploit vestige and soul power abilities and remove the quicken abilities.
demonic_dante 09-24-06, 10:37 PM	How is this one Invoker of the Eternal Souls Born to be a conduit for vestiges a warlock can learn that pact magic can be a boon to his innate abilities. Learning that a soul born of eldritch power can be harnessed and shaped into a binding seal, He becomes a living conduit for binding vestiges. In turn these vestiges fuel his fiendish eldritch might. entry requirements Alignment: Any nongood Feat Ability Focus, Improved Binding Spell or Spell-like Abilities: ability to manifest a 2d6 Eldritch Blast Special: Ability to bind a 3rd level vestige Hit Dice: d6 Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Ability 1. 0 0 0 2 Soul Seal / Soul Binding +1 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 2. 1 0 0 3 Expel Vestige / Soul Binding +2 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 3. 2 1 1 3 / Soul Binding +3 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 4. 3 1 1 4 / Soul Binding +4 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 5. 3 1 1 4 Soul power (1/day) / Soul Binding +5 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 6. 4 2 2 5 Soul Prisoner / Soul Binding +6 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 7. 5 2 2 5 / Soul Binding +7 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 8. 6 2 2 6 Soul Power (2/day) / Soul Binding +8 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 9. 6 3 3 6 Soul Slave / Soul Binding +9 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 10. 7 3 3 7 Vestige blast / Soul Binding +10 & +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class Class Skills: The class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge: Arcana (Int), Knowledge: The Planes (Int), Knowledge: Religion (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Int). Skills Points at 1st level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier. Soul Seal An invoker doesn’t need to draw a seal to summon a vestige. Their soul is used to mimic the effects of a seal. When an invoker attempts to summon a vestige the vestiges seal appears on the chest of the invoker. The vestige then appears as though the seal was drawn 5ft. in front of the invoker, if the invoker should move during summoning the vestige moves as well. When binding a vestige in this manner the invoker can ignore all special requirements. Expel Vestige You gain this feat as a bonus feat. Soul Power When a vestige is bound you may empower a spell-like ability as a free action 1/day. This increases to 2/day at 8th level. Soul Prisoner When you attain 6th you force vestiges into servitude. You become immune to fear effects for as long as a vestige is bound to you (if you already have the soul guardian class feature treat this as the next soul guardian ability). Due to the fear you inspire in weak vestiges (those that are not the highest level you can bind) you take a +5 benefit when making a binding check, however powerful vestiges (those of the highest level you can bind) resent you and you take a -5 penalty when making a binding check involving one of those vestiges. Soul Slave At 9th level you begin to enslave vestiges, no longer making pacts but forcing them to bind to you. As a standard action you can expel any one vestige. Doing so decreases the wait time between ability uses by one round for the duration of the day. You cannot bind another vestige to replace the one you expelled with this feat. For example a warlock3/binder3/invoker9 that had Amon, Aym, and Leraje bound to him could spend a standard action to expel Aym and for the rest of the day could use the fire breath granted by Amon once every 4 rounds (instead of 5). Your merciless treatment of vestiges causes the weak to submit in fear and the strong to hate and despise you. When binding any vestiges that are at least one level lower than the highest you can bind you automatically make a good pact. When binding vestiges of the highest level you can bind you automatically make a bad pact. Vestige Blast As a swift action an invoker can expel a bound vestige to power their Eldritch Blast. The Eldritch blast gains a number of dice equal to bound vestiges level + a bonus to damage equal to the Soul Binding bonus/2. This can be done once per day and the vestige expelled in this manor cannot be bound again for 48 hours. P.S. I know that the bonuses/penalties and auto success/failure that I put in soul prisoner and soul slave is kinda weird but wizards themselves said that influence was really for role playing and didn't have a big game effect, so I thought it was a nice piece of flavor. I have absolutely no problem with taking it out.