Binders and other classes... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Binders and other classes... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheDarkPrince
12-10-07, 12:57 AM Is it better to stay as a Binder to level 20, or are they a class that multi-classes well?

If they multi-class well, which class whould I multi-class into?

Thanks, Cheers! :D
vorpo
12-10-07, 09:31 AM Depending on the vestiges you can get, I'd say it multiclass well by having the vestiges enhancing the new class's abilities.
Sinfire Titan
12-10-07, 10:11 AM If you want all of the best abilities, stay Binder. If you want to use vestiges to augment other abilities, class out. I would personally stay Binder for 20 levels, just for the ability to tank better than most fighters would ever hope to. DR 20/- is nothing to sneeze at.
RobbyPants
12-10-07, 11:15 AM One combo I've heard about is to play a warlock/hellfire warlock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3) all but one level, and dip a single level into binder before picking up hellfire warlock. The hellfire warlock has an ability to significantly boost the warlock's eldritch blast damage at the cost of one point of Con damage. If you pick up the vestige Naberius, one of your granted powers is to heal a point of ability damage per round. Thus, you can use a hellfire blast every round and never take more than one point of Con damage at a time.

Of course, with wands of Lesser Restoration and Use Magic Device and Deceive Item, one questions whether or not it's really worth it for the warlock to give up a level...
InkBlot
12-10-07, 02:56 PM Edit: To sum up - A 1 level dip is good for Aym and Naberius. A 1 level dip with Improved Binding is good for Malphas and Dahlver-nar. A 3 level dip with Improved Binding is good for Andromalius and Paimon.

Improved Binding allows you to bind a higher level vestige than you normally could. This allows a binder to take two levels of something else and still have access to level-appropriate vestiges. Conversely, this also allows any character to one-level-dip into binder to get 2nd level vestiges. Dips can be extremely useful, either way.

If your character is mostly a binder, then he shouldn't multiclass until after 8th level. Being able to bind two vestiges at once is such an enormous power boost that I just can't picture delaying it or giving it up for anything else.

If you're dipping, you'll have to look at 1st and 2nd level vestiges to see what they offer. Below is a list of the best, IMO.

1st Level -
Amon might be good at low levels, when all you're using is a masterwork longsword and you the firebreath looks sweet. After a while, you'll want to bind other vestiges instead. Luckily, any binder can bind any vestige.

Aym is good for full-armor tanks who planned on sundering. She gives improved sunder as a bonus feat, and lets you deal double damage to objects; She lets you move at full speed in heavy armor; And anyone who hits you takes fire damage.

Leraje looks good for budding archers. The +1 to hit with bows (assuming you're already proficient from your other class) offsets the binders 3/4 BAB, and Ricochet is nice. However, a couple levels of fighter or ranger are strictly better in the long run. You wouldn't want to dip for Leraje unless there were other 1st/2nd level vestiges you would like to switch to later.

Naberius is fantastic for rogues and other diplomatic characters. He allows you to make rushed diplomacy checks as a standard action, without the usual penalty, and allows you to always take 10. That's amazing. He also gives disguise self at will, which is useful for any infiltrator.

2nd Level -
Malphas would tempt me to dip with any build. He lets you summon a raven or dove. You have complete mental control over this bird. You can see through it's eyes, and hear through it's ears. There is no range limit. The only limit is that you can have just one bird at a time. I've played a binder, and Malphas's birds saved the party's lives as often as Beur's healing. Malphas also grants limited invisibility, poison use, and sudden strike.

Savnok lets you never be without armor again. Free fullplate and DR 1/piercing are great at low-ish levels. At mid-high levels, Aym is better for tanking and Malphas becomes the best 2nd level vestige.

Dahlver-nar is good if you have a high con modifier. Natural armor stacks with the most common AC boosters, so it'll stay useful at high levels. The shield self ability is only useful if your party lets you use them as HP batteries, since most enemies will beat your low save DC. A cleric is most likely to let you use his HP.

3rd level -
A three-level dip plus Improved Binding nets you Andromalius and Paimon, two of the best vestiges. You may want to go one more level to even out your BAB and snag a binder bonus feat (Expel Vestige is good for adding some versatility).

Andromalius is great for any rogue-type looking for versatility. He grants skill boosts, locate object at will, and extra sneak attack. A rogue4/binder3 with Andromalius bound will feel a lot like a rogue7, until he uses his spell-mimicking abilities or binds another vestige.

Paimon is a striker in a can. Dance Of Death is amazing. You move, and make one melee attack against everybody you move past. It's usable only once every five rounds, but while you wait to recover it you've got Whirlwind Attack, a +4 boost to Dex, Weapon Finesse, and Uncanny Dodge.

Focalor and Karsus are 3rd level as well, but less stellar. They're not worth a 3 level dip. There are easier, better, ways to get blasting and wand use.
gorfnad the shiznit
12-10-07, 09:34 PM Have you checked these binder handbooks yet?
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=784085
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=607826
TheDarkPrince
12-10-07, 11:52 PM Wow...ok, I think ill keep the multi classing option open, and just see where it takes me. Binders sound great, I think I'll love playing one! Any hints on what kind of items to use? Magic or otherwise...

Thanks, Cheers! :D
InkBlot
12-11-07, 04:42 AM Binding implements come in handy, if you want to avoid taking on the influences and signs of the vestiges you bind.

A vestige phylactery will greatly aid you. It offsets the binder's one glaring weakness, by enabling you to swap your current vestige for one you stored in the phylactery earlier.

It can a good idea to carry equipment for many roles. Bring along a ranged weapon, a two-handed weapon, a one-handed weapon, a shield, medium armor, and light armor. Bring along tools for any skills you might want to use with Naberius. If you can bind Karsus, then buy a small selection of useful wands.

On the other hand, if you're dedicating yourself to melee then you can get away with funneling your cash into the best armor and weapons you can get.

Personally, I found the best magic items for my binder to be those that let him do something entirely new. For example, a Rod Of Escape or a Rod Of Ropes. This way I didn't have to worry about a magic item not stacking with a vestige, being unusable with a vestige, or being made obsolete by a vestige.
Sinfire Titan
12-11-07, 09:23 AM Binding implements come in handy, if you want to avoid taking on the influences and signs of the vestiges you bind.

A vestige phylactery will greatly aid you. It offsets the binder's one glaring weakness, by enabling you to swap your current vestige for one you stored in the phylactery earlier.

It can a good idea to carry equipment for many roles. Bring along a ranged weapon, a two-handed weapon, a one-handed weapon, a shield, medium armor, and light armor. Bring along tools for any skills you might want to use with Naberius. If you can bind Karsus, then buy a small selection of useful wands.

On the other hand, if you're dedicating yourself to melee then you can get away with funneling your cash into the best armor and weapons you can get.

Personally, I found the best magic items for my binder to be those that let him do something entirely new. For example, a Rod Of Escape or a Rod Of Ropes. This way I didn't have to worry about a magic item not stacking with a vestige, being unusable with a vestige, or being made obsolete by a vestige.

Or just bind Savnok, Dahlver-nar, and Eurynome, and never worry about spending a dime on decent magic items. Sure, the bonuses suck, but you can fix that by taking nothing but the insight bonuses to Attacks and AC.
InkBlot
12-11-07, 04:12 PM On the one hand, that is something like what I meant about avoiding buying things made obsolete by a vestige.

On the other hand, you can't always count on having the same vestige bound, especially before 8th level. Sometimes you'll really need Malphas to scout ahead, or Beur to keep your party from succumbing to mummy rot, or Agares to speak with important people who don't know common.

Also, you get better damage output and defenses if you choose vestiges which stack with your equipment, instead of vestiges that replace your equipment. Dahlver-nar is good for defense because natural armor and the ability to share damage stack with all your other defenses. Eurynome isn't so good, because a +5 adamantine weapon isn't as good as a +5 adamantine weapon with a +4 unnamed bonus to strength and +1d6 energy damage of your choice. Pact augments apply equally to all vestiges, but keep in mind that DR doesn't stack.

Vestiges like Eurynome are best for binders who don't normally carry around big weapons or strong armor. It would be better for a melee-focused binder to buy real weapons and armor, and bind Chupoclops, Eligor, and Andras (triple damage full attack ride by attack spirited charge, with +4 str, +3 nat armor, +1d6 energy damage, +binder level in damage 1/5 rounds).
Sinfire Titan
12-11-07, 05:08 PM On the one hand, that is something like what I meant about avoiding buying things made obsolete by a vestige.

On the other hand, you can't always count on having the same vestige bound, especially before 8th level. Sometimes you'll really need Malphas to scout ahead, or Beur to keep your party from succumbing to mummy rot, or Agares to speak with important people who don't know common.

Also, you get better damage output and defenses if you choose vestiges which stack with your equipment, instead of vestiges that replace your equipment. Dahlver-nar is good for defense because natural armor and the ability to share damage stack with all your other defenses. Eurynome isn't so good, because a +5 adamantine weapon isn't as good as a +5 adamantine weapon with a +4 unnamed bonus to strength and +1d6 energy damage of your choice. Pact augments apply equally to all vestiges, but keep in mind that DR doesn't stack.

Vestiges like Eurynome are best for binders who don't normally carry around big weapons or strong armor. It would be better for a melee-focused binder to buy real weapons and armor, and bind Chupoclops, Eligor, and Andras (triple damage full attack ride by attack spirited charge, with +4 str, +3 nat armor, +1d6 energy damage, +binder level in damage 1/5 rounds).

True. Save the augments for real protection. A +20 insight bonus to AC, or attacks, or an extra +20 on all saving throws. Binders are a great class if you know what you are going up against. If not, you still have a decent build. But I'd still prefer to save the cash for items like a Rod of Many Wands for the party's arcanist or divine caster. And a couple of Vestige Phylacteries to top it off.
InkBlot
12-11-07, 07:07 PM You can only get up to +5 with the pact augment bonuses. You get the bonuses when you have at least one vestige bound, not for each vestige you have bound.
Sinfire Titan
12-11-07, 07:27 PM You can only get up to +5 with the pact augment bonuses. You get the bonuses when you have at least one vestige bound, not for each vestige you have bound.

Dammit! Now the bonuses aren't worth it!
InkBlot
12-11-07, 07:56 PM The HP more than makes up the difference between a d10 and d8 hit die (by five points).

No other class gets so much energy resistance, to such a variety of types, without using spells with limited durations.

The saving throw bonus makes the difference between a good save and a bad save.

The DR is as strong as a Barbarian's, and comes earlier.

The AC bonus is greater than a Monk's level based bonus, although it lacks Wis to AC.

The attack bonuses make the difference between medium BAB and full BAB (minus iterative attacks).

I admit the bonus to damage rolls is worthless if you have Power Attack (with PA, take the bonus to hit and turn it into bonus damage when you need to).

A +10 to initiative can mean you always go first.

The bonuses are still worth it. If they applied for each vestige you bound, then they'd be plain broken. +20 to every attack roll all day long? Rings Of True Strike are epic artifacts.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheDarkPrince 12-10-07, 12:57 AM	Is it better to stay as a Binder to level 20, or are they a class that multi-classes well? If they multi-class well, which class whould I multi-class into? Thanks, Cheers! :D
vorpo 12-10-07, 09:31 AM	Depending on the vestiges you can get, I'd say it multiclass well by having the vestiges enhancing the new class's abilities.
Sinfire Titan 12-10-07, 10:11 AM	If you want all of the best abilities, stay Binder. If you want to use vestiges to augment other abilities, class out. I would personally stay Binder for 20 levels, just for the ability to tank better than most fighters would ever hope to. DR 20/- is nothing to sneeze at.
RobbyPants 12-10-07, 11:15 AM	One combo I've heard about is to play a warlock/hellfire warlock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3) all but one level, and dip a single level into binder before picking up hellfire warlock. The hellfire warlock has an ability to significantly boost the warlock's eldritch blast damage at the cost of one point of Con damage. If you pick up the vestige Naberius, one of your granted powers is to heal a point of ability damage per round. Thus, you can use a hellfire blast every round and never take more than one point of Con damage at a time. Of course, with wands of Lesser Restoration and Use Magic Device and Deceive Item, one questions whether or not it's really worth it for the warlock to give up a level...
InkBlot 12-10-07, 02:56 PM	Edit: To sum up - A 1 level dip is good for Aym and Naberius. A 1 level dip with Improved Binding is good for Malphas and Dahlver-nar. A 3 level dip with Improved Binding is good for Andromalius and Paimon. Improved Binding allows you to bind a higher level vestige than you normally could. This allows a binder to take two levels of something else and still have access to level-appropriate vestiges. Conversely, this also allows any character to one-level-dip into binder to get 2nd level vestiges. Dips can be extremely useful, either way. If your character is mostly a binder, then he shouldn't multiclass until after 8th level. Being able to bind two vestiges at once is such an enormous power boost that I just can't picture delaying it or giving it up for anything else. If you're dipping, you'll have to look at 1st and 2nd level vestiges to see what they offer. Below is a list of the best, IMO. 1st Level - Amon might be good at low levels, when all you're using is a masterwork longsword and you the firebreath looks sweet. After a while, you'll want to bind other vestiges instead. Luckily, any binder can bind any vestige. Aym is good for full-armor tanks who planned on sundering. She gives improved sunder as a bonus feat, and lets you deal double damage to objects; She lets you move at full speed in heavy armor; And anyone who hits you takes fire damage. Leraje looks good for budding archers. The +1 to hit with bows (assuming you're already proficient from your other class) offsets the binders 3/4 BAB, and Ricochet is nice. However, a couple levels of fighter or ranger are strictly better in the long run. You wouldn't want to dip for Leraje unless there were other 1st/2nd level vestiges you would like to switch to later. Naberius is fantastic for rogues and other diplomatic characters. He allows you to make rushed diplomacy checks as a standard action, without the usual penalty, and allows you to always take 10. That's amazing. He also gives disguise self at will, which is useful for any infiltrator. 2nd Level - Malphas would tempt me to dip with any build. He lets you summon a raven or dove. You have complete mental control over this bird. You can see through it's eyes, and hear through it's ears. There is no range limit. The only limit is that you can have just one bird at a time. I've played a binder, and Malphas's birds saved the party's lives as often as Beur's healing. Malphas also grants limited invisibility, poison use, and sudden strike. Savnok lets you never be without armor again. Free fullplate and DR 1/piercing are great at low-ish levels. At mid-high levels, Aym is better for tanking and Malphas becomes the best 2nd level vestige. Dahlver-nar is good if you have a high con modifier. Natural armor stacks with the most common AC boosters, so it'll stay useful at high levels. The shield self ability is only useful if your party lets you use them as HP batteries, since most enemies will beat your low save DC. A cleric is most likely to let you use his HP. 3rd level - A three-level dip plus Improved Binding nets you Andromalius and Paimon, two of the best vestiges. You may want to go one more level to even out your BAB and snag a binder bonus feat (Expel Vestige is good for adding some versatility). Andromalius is great for any rogue-type looking for versatility. He grants skill boosts, locate object at will, and extra sneak attack. A rogue4/binder3 with Andromalius bound will feel a lot like a rogue7, until he uses his spell-mimicking abilities or binds another vestige. Paimon is a striker in a can. Dance Of Death is amazing. You move, and make one melee attack against everybody you move past. It's usable only once every five rounds, but while you wait to recover it you've got Whirlwind Attack, a +4 boost to Dex, Weapon Finesse, and Uncanny Dodge. Focalor and Karsus are 3rd level as well, but less stellar. They're not worth a 3 level dip. There are easier, better, ways to get blasting and wand use.
gorfnad the shiznit 12-10-07, 09:34 PM	Have you checked these binder handbooks yet? http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=784085 http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=607826
TheDarkPrince 12-10-07, 11:52 PM	Wow...ok, I think ill keep the multi classing option open, and just see where it takes me. Binders sound great, I think I'll love playing one! Any hints on what kind of items to use? Magic or otherwise... Thanks, Cheers! :D
InkBlot 12-11-07, 04:42 AM	Binding implements come in handy, if you want to avoid taking on the influences and signs of the vestiges you bind. A vestige phylactery will greatly aid you. It offsets the binder's one glaring weakness, by enabling you to swap your current vestige for one you stored in the phylactery earlier. It can a good idea to carry equipment for many roles. Bring along a ranged weapon, a two-handed weapon, a one-handed weapon, a shield, medium armor, and light armor. Bring along tools for any skills you might want to use with Naberius. If you can bind Karsus, then buy a small selection of useful wands. On the other hand, if you're dedicating yourself to melee then you can get away with funneling your cash into the best armor and weapons you can get. Personally, I found the best magic items for my binder to be those that let him do something entirely new. For example, a Rod Of Escape or a Rod Of Ropes. This way I didn't have to worry about a magic item not stacking with a vestige, being unusable with a vestige, or being made obsolete by a vestige.
Sinfire Titan 12-11-07, 09:23 AM	Binding implements come in handy, if you want to avoid taking on the influences and signs of the vestiges you bind. A vestige phylactery will greatly aid you. It offsets the binder's one glaring weakness, by enabling you to swap your current vestige for one you stored in the phylactery earlier. It can a good idea to carry equipment for many roles. Bring along a ranged weapon, a two-handed weapon, a one-handed weapon, a shield, medium armor, and light armor. Bring along tools for any skills you might want to use with Naberius. If you can bind Karsus, then buy a small selection of useful wands. On the other hand, if you're dedicating yourself to melee then you can get away with funneling your cash into the best armor and weapons you can get. Personally, I found the best magic items for my binder to be those that let him do something entirely new. For example, a Rod Of Escape or a Rod Of Ropes. This way I didn't have to worry about a magic item not stacking with a vestige, being unusable with a vestige, or being made obsolete by a vestige. Or just bind Savnok, Dahlver-nar, and Eurynome, and never worry about spending a dime on decent magic items. Sure, the bonuses suck, but you can fix that by taking nothing but the insight bonuses to Attacks and AC.
InkBlot 12-11-07, 04:12 PM	On the one hand, that is something like what I meant about avoiding buying things made obsolete by a vestige. On the other hand, you can't always count on having the same vestige bound, especially before 8th level. Sometimes you'll really need Malphas to scout ahead, or Beur to keep your party from succumbing to mummy rot, or Agares to speak with important people who don't know common. Also, you get better damage output and defenses if you choose vestiges which stack with your equipment, instead of vestiges that replace your equipment. Dahlver-nar is good for defense because natural armor and the ability to share damage stack with all your other defenses. Eurynome isn't so good, because a +5 adamantine weapon isn't as good as a +5 adamantine weapon with a +4 unnamed bonus to strength and +1d6 energy damage of your choice. Pact augments apply equally to all vestiges, but keep in mind that DR doesn't stack. Vestiges like Eurynome are best for binders who don't normally carry around big weapons or strong armor. It would be better for a melee-focused binder to buy real weapons and armor, and bind Chupoclops, Eligor, and Andras (triple damage full attack ride by attack spirited charge, with +4 str, +3 nat armor, +1d6 energy damage, +binder level in damage 1/5 rounds).
Sinfire Titan 12-11-07, 05:08 PM	On the one hand, that is something like what I meant about avoiding buying things made obsolete by a vestige. On the other hand, you can't always count on having the same vestige bound, especially before 8th level. Sometimes you'll really need Malphas to scout ahead, or Beur to keep your party from succumbing to mummy rot, or Agares to speak with important people who don't know common. Also, you get better damage output and defenses if you choose vestiges which stack with your equipment, instead of vestiges that replace your equipment. Dahlver-nar is good for defense because natural armor and the ability to share damage stack with all your other defenses. Eurynome isn't so good, because a +5 adamantine weapon isn't as good as a +5 adamantine weapon with a +4 unnamed bonus to strength and +1d6 energy damage of your choice. Pact augments apply equally to all vestiges, but keep in mind that DR doesn't stack. Vestiges like Eurynome are best for binders who don't normally carry around big weapons or strong armor. It would be better for a melee-focused binder to buy real weapons and armor, and bind Chupoclops, Eligor, and Andras (triple damage full attack ride by attack spirited charge, with +4 str, +3 nat armor, +1d6 energy damage, +binder level in damage 1/5 rounds). True. Save the augments for real protection. A +20 insight bonus to AC, or attacks, or an extra +20 on all saving throws. Binders are a great class if you know what you are going up against. If not, you still have a decent build. But I'd still prefer to save the cash for items like a Rod of Many Wands for the party's arcanist or divine caster. And a couple of Vestige Phylacteries to top it off.
InkBlot 12-11-07, 07:07 PM	You can only get up to +5 with the pact augment bonuses. You get the bonuses when you have at least one vestige bound, not for each vestige you have bound.
Sinfire Titan 12-11-07, 07:27 PM	You can only get up to +5 with the pact augment bonuses. You get the bonuses when you have at least one vestige bound, not for each vestige you have bound. Dammit! Now the bonuses aren't worth it!
InkBlot 12-11-07, 07:56 PM	The HP more than makes up the difference between a d10 and d8 hit die (by five points). No other class gets so much energy resistance, to such a variety of types, without using spells with limited durations. The saving throw bonus makes the difference between a good save and a bad save. The DR is as strong as a Barbarian's, and comes earlier. The AC bonus is greater than a Monk's level based bonus, although it lacks Wis to AC. The attack bonuses make the difference between medium BAB and full BAB (minus iterative attacks). I admit the bonus to damage rolls is worthless if you have Power Attack (with PA, take the bonus to hit and turn it into bonus damage when you need to). A +10 to initiative can mean you always go first. The bonuses are still worth it. If they applied for each vestige you bound, then they'd be plain broken. +20 to every attack roll all day long? Rings Of True Strike are epic artifacts.