Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Phantom Lord 07-02-05, 08:47 PM	I was playing Final Fantasy II earlier today (or FF4, depending on which name you go by; that's a sweet game, for any of you who haven't played it) and decided that a black and a white mage variant might make a cool addition to D&D. So I've been toying with the idea, and decided that it might not be too bad: split the spells up between black, white, and neutral spells (not necessarily evil and good, mind you, but offensive and defensive) and grant the neutral spells to either variant, but only black or white depending on the type of mage. They are restricted from spells of the opposite school, of course. Otherwise it's just like normal specialization - they don't gain bonuses to neutral spells, but only to their chosen school. A couple questions: is it even worth adding in? Does it make enough of a difference to even bother with? Is there a good way to divvy up the spells by generalizing them, or will they have to be broken down individually? (I tried dividing them by schools, but with the wide variety of spells in each school, even certain necromancy spells would be available to a white mage.)
Mirikon 07-02-05, 09:34 PM	Start with the kinds of spells the White and Black mages get in the game. Black Mages get things like Ice, Rub, and Quake. White Mages get things like Cure, Life, and Holy. So Black mages typically get the hurty spells, while White Mages get the healing and the holy wrath type spells.
Phantom Lord 07-02-05, 11:51 PM	:D Right - it's mainly Black=Offense, White=Defense. See the OP. (not necessarily evil and good, mind you, but offensive and defensive)
Shaken, not Stunned 07-03-05, 12:20 AM	Of course, you could go full out, crazy on the good evil... Fighter with bard spell progression, but only and all cure or inflict spells(and maybe harm and heal), and no feats, That might be interesting. On topic, the best way to go about this may be to take a wizard base and re-write the spell list, as well as giving him access to spell secrets at 5, 10, 15, and 20. You could even introduce new spells that fit what you are after, like this: Lesser Fireball (Evocation, Fire) Level:Black Mage 1 Components:V, S Range: close (25ft+5ft/lvl) Duration: instantaneous Area: 5ft radius Save: Ref half SR: No You launch a basketball sized orb of flame to a point in range you designate. Upon arriving, this ball explodes dealing 1d6/level (max 5d6) damage to any creatures in the area who fail their reflex save. Those who pass take half damage. Unlike fireball, this spell does not cause flammable material to combust.
BlaineTog 07-03-05, 12:25 AM	Something to keep in mind: Final Fantasy is one-player, which means the party is built to optimum efficiency and power. However, a D&D party is built by multiple people, which means you might not get everything you want for a perfect party. In other words, very few people would play the White Mage.
Phantom Lord 07-03-05, 12:38 AM	BlaineTog: Thanks for the insight. That's an angle that I had not looked at yet. The white mage would still have quite a bit of power, but it would all be in buffs and healing. Perhaps a few offensive spells? Something somewhat celestial...like flame strike? (That's divine fire, I guess.) I can't make up my mind on this at the moment, though, because as I look through my book I can see all sorts of nifty spells. The only problem is there are none that would do much (if any) damage. So perhaps nerf the spellcasting ability (I've converted the mages over to a mana-point system, so, let's say, 75% mana points) and bump the BAB up to 3/4 and the HP up to a d6. Then again, that sounds too much like a cleric for my taste. So perhaps just a black mage variant? Or would throwing some sort of offensive spells (very few) in the white mage spell list be good?
Drachasor 07-03-05, 12:42 AM	If anything, one should try to make a varient where healing is more dispersed than it currently is. No one likes being a primary healer, so ideally the duties should be divied out among several people. -Drachasor
Phantom Lord 07-03-05, 12:44 AM	Alright. It's just an idea I had been entertaining. It hasn't even really made it to the drawing board yet. Probably won't at this rate. But thanks for the insights. And keep 'em coming!
Siouxsie Sioux is a god 07-03-05, 12:51 AM	i've never played the game before, so i have no clue how flavorful this idea is, but i like the idea Shaken, not Stunned came up with, 1) the whole totaly good and evil thing, i was thinking that you should go for book of vile darkness and book of exalted deeds, like, make the white mage get a bunch of bonuses and stuff from the BoED, like, a celestial companian or vow of poverty and other vows at different lvl's, maybe bonuses on words of creation, stuff like that. and 2)Fighter with bard spell progression, i thought that sounded kinda cool, something more it's own, not so much cleric. well, there's my two cent's :D -Siouxsie (yeah right! -Jimmy)
AramilWindwalker 07-03-05, 01:00 AM	I'd play the white mage(she gets a nasty hammer) It's from 8-bit theatre
Phantom Lord 07-03-05, 02:29 PM	I was looking through the spell list, trying to compile a first draft of a spell list for each variant. Then it hit me: the white mage, having only buff/antibuff (bless, magic weapon, shield, mage armor, true strike, disjunction, flesh to stone, curse, remove curse, command, dominate, hold person, et cetera - all of the battle spells that don't deal direct damage; some taken from the cleric list, too) and healing spells, has a huge list to choose from, while the black mage with his lack of indirectly-damaging spells (he only gets stuff like magic missile, fireball, acid orb, inflict wounds, frost touch - the ones that deal direct damage. Oh, and summoning spells, too) has a very small one. And that's important for a couple of reasons. First, nobody can deny the power of the black mage in battle (and he has a neutral spell list to draw form, too, like detect spells, arcane mark, knock, open/close, prestidigitation, teleport, etc.) because he gets bonuses to all of his summoning and damage-inflicting spells - the perfect battle mage, right? Even though his spell list is so small, he can still kick some tail. He's like the half-orc of the mage world ("I like to blow things up! Boom! Boy, it's beautiful!") On the flip side of that coin, the white mage, with his less-than-awesome damage-inflicting power, gets such a wide variety of spells (including healing spells, plus the neutral spell list mentioned above) that he can be played in several ways. He can be the more insidious type ("Hey you"*charm*"See that guard over there? He's actually an escaped murderer in disguise - you would be doing everybody a favor if you took him down"), the martial type (enlarge, Tenser's transformation, bull's strength, true strike, bless, magic weapon, mage armor; throw a couple 'hold person' and 'doom' spells in there, and you have a winning combo), or the support type (grease, hold person, dominate, invisibility, mass bull's strength, et cetera.) Any of those types have great power, they just require a slightly different style of play - an all-out arcane assault without any other sort of strategy will get him nowhere. So, I guess what my point is (and this is directed at you, BlaineTog,) is that even though the white mage path may be less trod, it still has enough power and variety to make it an excellent choice for a strategizing player. Now, for the second half of this post. What bonuses should be granted to the white and black mages? Because of the fact that something very dear is given up to specialize as either one (damage inflicting and summoning spells or buff/antibuff spells; more mutually exclusive than a traditional specialized wizard, because each school has both white and black spells, even necromancy) they should get a little more of a bonus to their chosen school than normal. I was thinking probably casting at +1 caster level would work fine, along with +1 to saving throws vs. the chosen school, in addition to the standard +2 to spellcraft checks. They would not get an extra spell per day, and would have no bonuses associated with their neutral spells. Any thoughts?
Phantom Lord 07-04-05, 08:19 PM	:bump:
Xeviat-DM 07-04-05, 08:30 PM	Remember though, didn't the black mage get haste and a few other status effects? In reality, D&D's wizard and cleric are close to the ideals of the white and black magi from FF. Maybe you'd like to find a way to knock down the cleric's BAB and HD in order to make them feel more wizardly, but apparently you'd need to add quite a bit more to make it balanced.
Phantom Lord 07-04-05, 08:51 PM	I didn't think the black mage got any status effects except poison. Maybe I'm wrong there. Either way, I'm about this close to giving up completely on this idea, due to lack of merit.
Breetai 07-04-05, 09:30 PM	You might want to look into the world of dragonlance for ideas on the good vs evil wizard ideas. They've got some excellent background and ideas on the whole White robed (good) Black robed (Evil) and red robed (Neutral) wizards. Thier reasoning for holding a society of "High Sorcery" with all alignments is easily adaptable to any world when you dig into the background. But other than the alignment and moon phase restrictions in the world of krynn the primary differance between the casters is not the spells they have available it's more about the spells they choose to use and how they use them. While there's nothing stopping a white robed wizard from blasting the enemy with a fireball, he might want to try and charm the enemy leader before resorting to slaying them. That being said I think the primary differance boils down to roleplaying rather than game mechanics. But then again it's your world and if you guys have more fun working alignment into game mechanics then definitly roll with it. Older Edition Dragonlance stuff and an excellent Idea of granting the Black robed wizards earlier access to the more powerful spells while the white robed wizards gained more spells per level but slowly gaining the more powerful stuff (kind of the quicker easier path of the "Dark Side",) and of course the red robed wizards were between the two. Perhaps that may be a better direction for ya?
Phantom Lord 07-04-05, 09:40 PM	Thanks.
LordofNightmares 07-05-05, 02:07 AM	Seeing that I am enamored with FF (my website has a large section about BESM Tristat FF), I'd have to say the following: Black Mage/Wizard = Wizard White Mage/Wizard = Cleric As for the deities for the clerics, they worship "the gods", presumabally the most powerful of the summons Bahamut and Ashura, if not something else not mentioned ingame. As for domains, I recomment Alignmnet, Magic, Healing and War, but really any could be used as logn as it fit with the character concept. Someting quite good that I've sued before is that the domains are not keyed to the gods, but the personalities and how the cleric worship the "Gods". It works great for monothiestic worlds... Of course "minor cults" may have dictated domains. Look at Rosa She is a skilled Cleric armed with a bow, so presumabally she has alignment or healing as War (with her preferred bow as the chosen weapon). How about Palom, clericla prodegy, cleric dedicated to Knowledge and Magic, as per appropriate for a nation of learend scholars. As for weapons and gear, well its shown that the clerics in FF are not all that limited on waht they can use. however, I do think that trading their medium and heavy armor proficiency for a bonus feat at level one would not be uncalled for Tellah and FuSoYa, the Sage and Lunarin respectfully, they are both obviosuly Mystic Thurges Rydia the summoner is a Wizard who knew a few clerical spells before she was swollowed by Levithan, but after that she was a Summoner specialist wizard. One might even go as far and say she was a sorcerer before her training with the summond Monsters, but afterward she was a specialist wizard... she is a very special case. Its funny that I find this right now, I'm adapting the FF4 world over to a campaign setting, set 20 years after the game ends. As for the otehr calsses Dark Knights and Dragoons are singel classed fighters with specialized feat trees. The Dark Wave can be represented with some form of advanced Power Attack that can trade HP for extra Damage. The highest ranking start ot level as Blackguard. And BESM d20 has the perfect feat for Dragoons, Chanbara Master It grants the character a +2 to hit when striking for mthe air. Advacne that feat tree out to include bonus damage like a charge and you could easily represent a Dragoon... Remeber high levels of the Jump skill. Yang IS a monk Edge is a Rogue/Ninja Cid is a Specialist NPC class Gordon/Edward is a Bard Porom is a Wizard Cecil is a Dark Knight who then gives it up for Paladin... no leve ltrade there, sadly. Golbez is a Sorcerer or Wizard/Blackguard