Post/Author/DateTime	Post
xAndurilx 07-25-07, 02:08 PM	Hi, It says in the Blackguard Prestige Class that a character must be of any evil alignment to BECOME a Blackguard. I have not found any rules for a Blackguard that becomes good after becoming a blackguard. Obviously you can make house rules, but is there any official ruling on this? The loophole occurs when you stop taking levels of Blackguard and start taking levels of Paladin. The Divine Grace and Dark Blessing bonuses to Saving throws stack (as they are both unnamed bonuses)- leading to VERY high saves for the character level. Thoughts?
IRememberCecil 07-25-07, 02:15 PM	It's true. The rules say nothing about losing the abilities of a PrC if you stop meeting the prerequisites. But this is a pretty old trick, and too reliant on metagaming (don't bother using it in a planned build).
xAndurilx 07-25-07, 02:26 PM	I kinda like the Redeemed Fallen Angel concept: Darth Vader, countless Superheroes, etc. Why not put it in a planned build?
IRememberCecil 07-25-07, 02:35 PM	I kinda like the Redeemed Fallen Angel concept: Darth Vader, countless Superheroes, etc. Why not put it in a planned build? Because then you're effectively saying: "... and then after two levels of Blackguard I become Good-aligned again and redeem myself as a Paladin." See how that's a little bit metagamey?
Witch 07-25-07, 02:38 PM	Some splat books say something about what happens on the loss of the Prestige Class requirements. They say everything but BAB, saves and skill points is lost. Personally, I'm more lenient, and I go by what makes sense. A blackguard who ceases to be evil would lose all his blackguard supernatural abilities and spells, but would retain his sneak attack.
Ebonarc 07-25-07, 02:44 PM	Obviously you can make house rules, but is there any official ruling on this? I wish there was. The loophole occurs when you stop taking levels of Blackguard and start taking levels of Paladin. Please note that unless you houserule it, you can't take more levels of paladin after taking levels in another class, except for certain PrCs in the Complete series that explicitly say so.
xAndurilx 07-25-07, 02:47 PM	...but Paladin Levels are not required to take levels in Blackguard... :)
xAndurilx 07-25-07, 02:48 PM	Because then you're effectively saying: "... and then after two levels of Blackguard I become Good-aligned again and redeem myself as a Paladin." See how that's a little bit metagamey? Not really...I see a very cool concept and a great potential background. :)
tarkin 07-25-07, 02:53 PM	As others stated it is NOT true that you all abilities of PrC's if you no longer qualify. Several of the WoTC splat books expressely state that you lose the PrC abilties
Ebonarc 07-25-07, 02:55 PM	Not really...I see a very cool concept and a great potential background. :) Unless you start the campaign at higher levels, that's a character build, not a background.
Ebonarc 07-25-07, 02:57 PM	...but Paladin Levels are not required to take levels in Blackguard... :) Granted, but I wanted to point that out, since it sounded like you were saying "take levels again". You weren't, but I thought you were when I first read it.
Need_A_Life 07-25-07, 03:02 PM	I know that my issue of the DMG says that if you don't meet the requirements you lose all benefits, except for hit dice, base attack bonus and saves. And even if it didn't, it is so stated in later sourcebooks. Thirdly, any DM allowing this deserves the brokeness that comes with that cheese (I know, my old DM allowed Dark Blessing [given to a druid-version of blackguard :rolleyes: ], Divine Grace [Paladin] and Kami's Grace [OA] to stack). In an epic campaign... so my sorcerer (+20 cha BONUS) sacrificed three caster levels to gain +60 to saves. Yes, that campaign ended because of his "anything goes" attitude, along with his "DM vs. Players" look on things.
IRememberCecil 07-25-07, 03:03 PM	Several of the WoTC splat books expressely state that you lose the PrC abilties And they overrule Core since... when?
xAndurilx 07-25-07, 03:35 PM	Unless you start the campaign at higher levels, that's a character build, not a background. Cant a Character Build be part of a background? :rolleyes:
Ebonarc 07-25-07, 03:40 PM	Cant a Character Build be part of a background? :rolleyes: Not in this case. This "background" requires something like 7 class levels. If you want it to be "background", it has to have happened in the past, before the campaign started. Unless you start the campaign at high levels, you can't have all those class levels in your background.
Kursk 07-25-07, 03:42 PM	start taking levels of Paladin... Thoughts? :rofl: :rofl:
Sleepwalker13666 07-25-07, 04:24 PM	Cant a Character Build be part of a background? :rolleyes: A better way to portray an evil guy gone good would be play a Hellbred, their favored class is paladin, they are usually lawful good, they are trying to atone for a misdeeded past.
RealSorceror 07-25-07, 04:26 PM	"I am Baron Bad, then Good, then Bad, then Good, then Bad-again Beaver!" :evillaugh
Jaxgaret 07-25-07, 04:52 PM	And they overrule Core since... when? Show me where in the Core ruleset that it states that you retain all abilities of a PrC if you lose its prerequisites. That's right, it doesn't state it explicitly. Therefore, it is open to interpretation... but wait, Wizards released a solid ruling [not in an errata, not in a FAQ, but in a published book going to a wide audience of D&D players] in an attempt to clear up any confusion. So you can houserule that it works your way all you want, but it is a houserule.
IRememberCecil 07-25-07, 05:15 PM	Show me where in the Core ruleset that it states that you retain all abilities of a PrC if you lose its prerequisites. Show me where it states that you lose them. Base classes explicitly state what happens when you fail to meet the requirements for taking them, PrCs don't. That's right, it doesn't state it explicitly. Therefore, it is open to interpretation... but wait, Wizards released a solid ruling [not in an errata, not in a FAQ, but in a published book going to a wide audience of D&D players] in an attempt to clear up any confusion. No, anything released in a supplement that goes against Core is either a variant rule or a mistake, unless it says otherwise (like the Fiendish Codices, which explicitly state that they overrule Core on matters pertaining to their respective fiends). So you can houserule that it works your way all you want, but it is a houserule. Right back at you.
Maat_Mons 07-25-07, 05:18 PM	If you just wanted really high saves, you could try to combine divine grace (paladin of tyranny/slaughter 3), arcane resistance (hexblade 2), and dark blessing (blackguard 2) for triple your charisma bonus to saves against spells and spell-like abilities. No alignment change is involved, but you may still have to contend with unhappy DMs.
Jaxgaret 07-25-07, 05:38 PM	Show me where it states that you lose them. No, anything released in a supplement that goes against Core is either a variant rule or a mistake, unless it says otherwise (like the Fiendish Codices, which explicitly state that they overrule Core on matters pertaining to their respective fiends). Right back at you. The ruling in Complete Warrior does not go against Core - there is no ruling either way in Core, so how could it go against something which does not exist? I agree that they are both houserules (there being no Core RAW on this issue), but at least my houserule is backed up by logic and a further published official ruling. If WotC released a section in a new splatbook stating that Dead characters may take no actions, but because the Core ruling on being dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) doesn't state that they can't take actions you would say that that is a houserule too?
DM Zoc 07-25-07, 05:48 PM	Prestige classes are an optional rule anyway. Why would they waste valuable core rule space saying what happens when something unlikely happens late into using that optional rule?
JLaurHughes 07-25-07, 06:00 PM	DM Zoc is right, Using a Prestige Class in the game is an optional rule and it states in the DMG that use of it should be limited. Otherwise an Official Answer is found in the FAQ Q: If I have a feat or prestige class, and then lose one of the requirements for that feat or prestige class, what happens? A: There are no specific rules that cover what happens when you no longer qualify for a feat that you have already taken. In general, if you no longer qualify for a feat you have, you no longer gain any benefit or ability from that feat. Some Dungeon Masters allow their players to choose a different feat if they no longer qualify for a feat they have, while other Dungeon Masters allow the player to keep the feat in hopes that they may again qualify for it sometime in the campaign's future. If a character no longer qualifies for a feat and chooses to keep it anyway, or simply trades out the feat for another, he/she would also not qualify for any feats or prestige classes based on that feat. When a character no longer qualifies for a prestige class they have already taken, they lose most of the benefits of that prestige class and cannot advance further in that prestige class until they again meet the requirements. They retain any hit dice, base attack bonus, saves, and skill points based on the class, but lose all other benefits. Once they meet the requirements again, they regain all the abilities and can advance normally in the class. Emphasis mine.
IRememberCecil 07-25-07, 06:41 PM	The ruling in Complete Warrior does not go against Core - there is no ruling either way in Core, so how could it go against something which does not exist? Because Complete Warrior says something happens when you stop meeting the prerequisits (and if you want to argue semantics, "prerequisites" is the exact word used), Core doesn't. 1 is not the same as 0, therefore one must overrule the other. I agree that they are both houserules (there being no Core RAW on this issue), but at least my houserule is backed up by logic and a further published official ruling. Mine is also backed up, by the fact that supplemental rules don't overrule Core unless they explicitly state so. That pretty much trumps anything anyone else can come up with. If WotC released a section in a new splatbook stating that Dead characters may take no actions, but because the Core ruling on being dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) doesn't state that they can't take actions you would say that that is a houserule too? See, if Core fails to define the state of "dead", then you immediately consult the dictionary. Also, Core assumes you use your human intelligence for determining such obvious things as this one. Also, Core tends to work the following way: If it doesn't say you can/are, then you can't/aren't (use normal definitions). Prestige classes are an optional rule anyway. Why would they waste valuable core rule space saying what happens when something unlikely happens late into using that optional rule? The attitude that prestige classes are optional is outdated. And on the FAQ ruling: The FAQ rulings are rulings made by the person that writes it (and they very often contradictive towards the actual rules and even themselves). If someone else had covered it, they might have said that you do keep the class features. It's accepted that the FAQ can be very undependable (and it's adding something that isn't there in this case, which makes it wrong).
Jaxgaret 07-25-07, 06:51 PM	To IRememberCecil: Do you also allow PCs to purchase Rings of Evasion to qualify characters for PrCs that require "Evasion", not "Evasion as a class feature", and then take them off once they qualify without losing any class features of the PrC? Because that is the RAW interpretation if you play the game your way.
Jaxgaret 07-25-07, 06:55 PM	Because Complete Warrior says something happens when you stop meeting the prerequisits (and if you want to argue semantics, "prerequisites" is the exact word used), Core doesn't. 1 is not the same as 0, therefore one must overrule the other. Mine is also backed up, by the fact that supplemental rules don't overrule Core unless they explicitly state so. That pretty much trumps anything anyone else can come up with. Also, Core tends to work the following way: If it doesn't say you can/are, then you can't/aren't (use normal definitions). So your argument is based on the fact that Core tends to work in a certain way, thus it is written in stone that they work that way and must never be addended by supplements ever!!!! Or you could admit that Core does not have an explicit ruling on this issue, and thus there is no ruling for the supplemental rule to be "trumping" or "contradicting". Oh, and if you don't meet at least 1 of multiple requirements for something, you don't meet its requirements.
IRememberCecil 07-25-07, 06:58 PM	So your argument is based on the fact that Core tends to work in a certain way, thus it is written in stone that they work that way and must never be addended by supplements ever!!!! Well, Core has never deviated from that pattern, so there's no reason to assume that it does so in that particular spot. When in doubt, always assume that a ruleset is consistent and attempts to maintain the status quo. Or, you could admit that Core does not have an explicit ruling on this issue, and thus there is no ruling for the supplemental rule to be "trumping" or "contradicting". Nevar!
Witch 07-25-07, 07:02 PM	IRC, you'll need to bite your thumb on this one - I'm afraid you're wrong on it. Blatantly. Personally, I don't like the fact that we're supposed to refer to splat books regarding errata or rules on core matters, but unfortunately, such is what WotC is doing. Rule otherwise as you wish, ofcourse.
Jaxgaret 07-25-07, 07:03 PM	Nevar! Submit! :)
Jaxgaret 07-25-07, 07:05 PM	IRC, you'll need to bite your thumb on this one - I'm afraid you're wrong on it. Blatantly. Personally, I don't like the fact that we're supposed to refer to splat books regarding errata or rules on core matters, but unfortunately, such is what WotC is doing. Rule otherwise as you wish, ofcourse. Witch is infallible, so I win. Quid pro quo, ipso facto, ceteris paribus. ;)
IRememberCecil 07-25-07, 07:06 PM	... Now look what you made me do. My apartment is a wreck from my rage and I think I may have accidentally killed someone. Before I go to prison, okay. I concede. BTW, my left thumb is already bitten. It's vestigial, if you will.
Ebonarc 07-25-07, 07:10 PM	Deleted.
IRememberCecil 07-25-07, 07:12 PM	What Witch said. The splatbook ruling isn't going against core, because core doesn't have a ruling on it. Look above. I already gave up. That's, what, the 46th time in my life where I have admitted to being wrong (call me morbid, but I keep track of this, since I despise the feeling of admitting failure). BTW, I don't blame those who do cause me to admit it, so don't worry. You're not in for any kind of vengeance. EDIT: Saw you deleted your post.
G_Mancer 07-25-07, 10:53 PM	Heres what you have: Complete warrior pg 16. once you dont meet a PrC's Pre-reqs, you lose everything under the "special" column.(paraphrase) means you keep bab, saves, and proficiancies. if your looking for just core ruling, then i hope your using core only material. i'd laugh very hard for 10 min and kick you in the groin if i found out you want a core only ruling for a character that isn't core only. if your using expanded dnd material, take the rules too. pg 16 of CW is the most clear it can get. it's definitive and official WoTC ruling. ignore it if you want but dont ask any of us to help you to help you get around it, or expect any of us to pat you on the back for something that is 1. against the rules, or 2. broken by not using material as it's intended use. if you wanted the saves to stack, go hexblade. arcane resistence(3rd lvl) DOES stack, and you dont have to stop meeting any pre-reqs to gain both special abilities. *this is waht happens when you start to read a thread and get frustrated with people posting in it and dont bother to read the rest of the thread. sorry to any whom i have offended by my agressive tone.
gbnogkfs 07-26-07, 12:14 PM	For as long as the quarreling about RAW makes any sense: 1) IF YOU WANT MY INTERPRETATION: The losing-abilities question is really clear on the DMG, which says that you must meet PrC "prerequisits" before taking the first level. It does not say anything about subsequent levels or losing the abilities. The rules say to refer to basic classes rules for anything that's not addressed in the PrC section, which have no default rule for losing abilities apart from very class-specific ones. If one has to go by that, saying the contrary is a rule change, and the FAQ are simply wrong (I bet people who wrote them weren't even aware about the difference from 3.0 to 3.5). If a later book that is not a revision of the DMG says otherwise, it should only count if, and for how much, you want to use that book. 2) "Prerequisites" for PrCs are no longer "prerequisites" at all: they are "Entry Requirements" since a few years now. 3) Everyone plays as they whishes.
Mojo_Rat 07-26-07, 02:29 PM	It seems to me this isnt really a case of a loophole. Or rather its a case of one that should never come up as an issue. Most of the DM's I have played with would spend a few moments laughing if I suggested it then offer a resounding no. a generous dm might create a black-guard to paladin class swap scenario which seems to me in the event of an rp situation where it came up would make the most sense. but functionally most of the blackguards class abilities and motife are essentially counter to the existence of the paladin so it seems kind of a silly argument to continue receiving some sort of blessing of the dark gods when you no longer serve said gods etc. Anyhow I would think it ultimately comes down to weather the DM wants to allow uber cheese in his game or not.
cato 07-26-07, 05:39 PM	All of my DMs would laugh, its only a viable option if you play in a 12 year old munchkin party .. especially after the excerpt from complete warrior. (i.e no racism intended against 12 year olds ^^)
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 07-26-07, 06:48 PM	Of course, you could just look for the variant "paladins" requiring one of the evil alignments, then go blackguard. Same benefit.
Otto the Bugbear 07-26-07, 08:22 PM	1) IF YOU WANT MY INTERPRETATION: The losing-abilities question is really clear on the DMG, which says that you must meet PrC "prerequisits" before taking the first level. Unless you, ya'know, bust out the DMG and actually look at the text. You know, the one that says "requirements" and not "prerequisits".:teach:
gbnogkfs 07-26-07, 10:45 PM	Unless you, ya'know, bust out the DMG and actually look at the text. You know, the one that says "requirements" and not "prerequisits".:teach: is there any point you want to prove? because it's not clear...:rolleyes:
Otto the Bugbear 07-27-07, 07:38 AM	is there any point you want to prove? because it's not clear... How about the fact that you're carrying on about "prerequisites" and how it applies before taking the first level but doesn't apply after, when the blackguard doesn't have "prerequisites" at all, but rather it has "requirements".
gbnogkfs 07-27-07, 08:23 AM	How about the fact that you're carrying on about "prerequisites" and how it applies before taking the first level but doesn't apply after, when the blackguard doesn't have "prerequisites" at all, but rather it has "requirements". I was using the same term that was being used in the thread. Is this really important? If you cared to read my post throughly you would even have seen this specific point addressed.
G_Mancer 07-30-07, 02:01 AM	i may just be low class unedjucated son'o B... but i'm pretty sure Prerequisite and Requirements come from the same latin root word. both meanings are amazingly similar by definition. a prerequisiute is a requirement that must be taken ante(pre)something. thats what grand-pappy said...
Sphere 07-30-07, 03:53 AM	If you become a half-dragon you do not qualify for the Dragon Disciple PRC, which turns you into a half-dragon at level 10 in the PrC, which means you no longer qualify for the Dragon Disciple PrC after level 10 because you become a half-dragon, which turns you back into a normal race because you no longer gain the class features, which lets you qualify for the Dragon Disciple PrC because you are not a half-dragon, which turns you into a half-dragon because you have 10 levels of Dragon Disciple... Clearly the DMG PrC classes were not written with that rule about no longer qualifying for a PrC after you gain entry to it in mind.
perdera 07-31-07, 05:08 PM	I kinda like the Redeemed Fallen Angel concept: Darth Vader, countless Superheroes, etc. Why not put it in a planned build? hehehe Evil Blackguard: I donate 10k platinum to the poor homeless children of Sharn! Am I Good yet? DM: Nope! Evil Blackguard: I stupidly dive in front of the dragon to protect the fully-buffed fully-healed Barbarian from getting a scratch! Phew! Am I Good yet? DM: Nope! Evil Blackguard: Ok, now. I've spent the last six months travelling the countryside and solving every ill, plague, bandit or monster menace within a 100 mile radius. Am I Good now? DM: Nope! Hey, you can plan whatever you want.
Sleepwalker13666 07-31-07, 05:12 PM	If you become a half-dragon you do not qualify for the Dragon Disciple PRC, which turns you into a half-dragon at level 10 in the PrC, which means you no longer qualify for the Dragon Disciple PrC after level 10 because you become a half-dragon, which turns you back into a normal race because you no longer gain the class features, which lets you qualify for the Dragon Disciple PrC because you are not a half-dragon, which turns you into a half-dragon because you have 10 levels of Dragon Disciple... Clearly the DMG PrC classes were not written with that rule about no longer qualifying for a PrC after you gain entry to it in mind. That class is an example of an exception not the rule.
Otto the Bugbear 07-31-07, 06:15 PM	hehehe Evil Blackguard: I donate 10k platinum to the poor homeless children of Sharn! Am I Good yet? DM: Nope! Evil Blackguard: I stupidly dive in front of the dragon to protect the fully-buffed fully-healed Barbarian from getting a scratch! Phew! Am I Good yet? DM: Nope! Evil Blackguard: Ok, now. I've spent the last six months travelling the countryside and solving every ill, plague, bandit or monster menace within a 100 mile radius. Am I Good now? DM: Nope! Hey, you can plan whatever you want. So, redeemable evil doesn't exist in your campaign?
Teh_username 07-31-07, 06:41 PM	So, redeemable evil doesn't exist in your campaign? I know that in my campaign, a PC doing "good" deeds for the specific purpose of gaining more power (and the plan to stop doing them the instant that he gained said power) would in no way count as "good". More like "still evil, just doing what looks like a good deed but has entirely selfish motivations".
Otto the Bugbear 07-31-07, 07:00 PM	I know that in my campaign, a PC doing "good" deeds for the specific purpose of gaining more power (and the plan to stop doing them the instant that he gained said power) would in no way count as "good". More like "still evil, just doing what looks like a good deed but has entirely selfish motivations". Sure. But that doesn't answer the question. At all. Also, another question just popped up. Why can't the player and the DM, you know, talk these things over and come up with a story both will enjoy? Why does it have to be the DM v. the player in this situation? Ok. Two questions.
bernardofbbraga 07-31-07, 07:25 PM	Few have the purity and devotion that it takes to walk the paladin’s path, but those few are rewarded with the power to protect, to heal, and to smite. I guess a blackguard could redeem himself, by doing so, he'd lose his powers, since his powers come from being evil. He'd never become a paladin. I've noticed that many people treat the paladin as a normal class, like some kind of mix between cleric and warrior. It's not! The paladin is a very important person, a chosen one. Background: No one ever chooses to be a paladin. Becoming a paladin is answering a call, accepting one’s destiny. No one, no matter how diligent, can become a paladin through practice. The nature is either within one or not, and it is not possible to gain the paladin’s nature by any act of will. There's no "paladin school" to go once you decide to be a paladin. You simply can't. If I were a game master, I'd only give the option to become a paladin to a player that acts just like a paladin but is not. Not a player that is anxious to becoming a paladin. It would be up to him to answer that call. As a sum up. Being lawful good is not enough. Maybe you didn't notice how many lawful good clerics, wizards or warriors there are around... None of which received a call to become a paladin. Why would a horrible person such as a blackguard receive such call? Even if you took a quest to redeem every bad thing you did, and by the use of "Atonement" spell, and by that you turned good, that's not enough. You would be good, not pure.
AMGriffin 07-31-07, 07:50 PM	Well, let's remember there's a fine line between pure powergaming and having a path planned out for your character. A player can decide going into creating his character (or even better, it just happens sort of along the way) that they'll see things differently after adventuring for a while and slowly turn away from evil, have some kind of existential realization about protecting the life around him, and then take on the path fo the paladin with the same zeal he once devoted to being a blackguard. But if a player just has it as part of a powergaming concept...its stupid. hehehe Evil Blackguard: I donate 10k platinum to the poor homeless children of Sharn! Am I Good yet? DM: Nope! Evil Blackguard: I stupidly dive in front of the dragon to protect the fully-buffed fully-healed Barbarian from getting a scratch! Phew! Am I Good yet? DM: Nope! Evil Blackguard: Ok, now. I've spent the last six months travelling the countryside and solving every ill, plague, bandit or monster menace within a 100 mile radius. Am I Good now? DM: Nope! Hey, you can plan whatever you want. If I were DM I'd allow him to become good, but rule he took a -12 penalty to wisdom, ruling his character went insane.
Otto the Bugbear 07-31-07, 08:03 PM	I guess a blackguard could redeem himself, by doing so, he'd lose his powers, since his powers come from being evil. He'd never become a paladin. I've noticed that many people treat the paladin as a normal class, like some kind of mix between cleric and warrior. It's not! The paladin is a very important person, a chosen one. There's no "paladin school" to go once you decide to be a paladin. You simply can't. If I were a game master, I'd only give the option to become a paladin to a player that acts just like a paladin but is not. Not a player that is anxious to becoming a paladin. It would be up to him to answer that call. As a sum up. Being lawful good is not enough. Maybe you didn't notice how many lawful good clerics, wizards or warriors there are around... None of which received a call to become a paladin. Why would a horrible person such as a blackguard receive such call? Even if you took a quest to redeem every bad thing you did, and by the use of "Atonement" spell, and by that you turned good, that's not enough. You would be good, not pure. The paladin bit I can empathize with. You want to change from a blackguard or assassin or whatever into a goody two-shoes divine character? That's what cleric (or many other more lenient classes) is for. If I were DM I'd allow him to become good, but rule he took a -12 penalty to wisdom, ruling his character went insane. Pure. Unadulterated. Asshattery.
elonin 07-31-07, 09:26 PM	OK I've got a twist for you. Blackguard levels and paladin of tyranny levels. Technically this wouldn't threaten either classes progression. An idea to deal with this might be for the dm to house rule that those CHA to saves bonus don't stack. That isn't RAW but is within the spirit of the rules.
Crashy75 07-31-07, 10:04 PM	i may just be low class unedjucated son'o B... but i'm pretty sure Prerequisite and Requirements come from the same latin root word. both meanings are amazingly similar by definition. a prerequisiute is a requirement that must be taken ante(pre)something. thats what grand-pappy said... Let's see what dictionary.com says... pre·req·ui·site Pronunciation[pri-rek-wuh-zit, pree-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1. required beforehand: a prerequisite fund of knowledge. –noun 2. something prerequisite: A visa is still a prerequisite for travel in many countries. re·quire·ment Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-kwahyuhr-muhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. that which is required; a thing demanded or obligatory: One of the requirements of the job is accuracy. 2. an act or instance of requiring. 3. a need or necessity: to meet the requirements of daily life. They seem to have different meanings to me...
gbnogkfs 07-31-07, 10:18 PM	Now, what are the incongruences between i may just be low class unedjucated son'o B... but i'm pretty sure Prerequisite and Requirements come from the same latin root word. both meanings are amazingly similar by definition. a prerequisiute is a requirement that must be taken ante(pre)something. (bold mine) and re·quire·ment Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-kwahyuhr-muhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. that which is required; a thing demanded or obligatory: One of the requirements of the job is accuracy. 2. an act or instance of requiring. 3. a need or necessity: to meet the requirements of daily life. pre·req·ui·site Pronunciation[pri-rek-wuh-zit, pree-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1. required beforehand: a prerequisite fund of knowledge. –noun 2. something prerequisite: A visa is still a prerequisite for travel in many countries. ?
Crashy75 07-31-07, 11:29 PM	I'm not sure what the ? is for. You seem to get it.
Poison_Dusk 08-01-07, 12:29 AM	I think what Crashy is getting at is that prerequisite means you need it beforehand, where as requirement means you continue to need it. Not just beforehand, but continuously. Am I right here Crashy?
Nigel Rorris 08-01-07, 01:28 AM	crash is debating the statement of G....that pre-requisite and requirement and very similar..."amazingly similar" is in fact is what G said... Crash then says that they are different....Crash, G never said they were the same...he said they were similar...they have like attributes...Require is require is REQUIRE... A requirement to drive a tractor trailer is the appropriate license...so it is also a prerequisite to work as a tractor trailer driver....
BlaineTog 08-01-07, 01:41 AM	This thread makes David the God of Logic cry.
CaoSlayer 08-01-07, 01:54 AM	hell, take levels in paladin of tyranny or slaughter and dont be that wicked. IMO I dont know if a paladin order would accept someone who makes deals with demons or have made acts of unspeakable evilness in the past. He can be redeemed but becoming a champion of virtue is another thing, he is too tainted for that.
Nigel Rorris 08-01-07, 02:03 AM	A lot of that is RPing..something to be discussed between player and DM...I as a DM would allow it...with a good story line from teh player and dedication to play it with out messing up....Evil can be redeemed...and a Paladin order would be one that would try and help facilitate such a miraculous happening. A blackguard has seen the error of his ways and falls on his knees at teh mercy of the paladin...said paladin takes black guard to order and over an extended period of time they keep watch over him, guiding and nurturing...they notice he is honest in his change of heart...and pray for him constantly...Divine Being sees this also..sees into blackguards heart and sees there is a purity renewed...bada-bing bada-boom new paladin is made... Would he get teh blackguard abilities..hell no...but a compromise would be in the works...
DM Zoc 08-01-07, 02:03 AM	There's also an official ruling, on the books, that you can't get the same attribute bonus (Charisma) to the same value (saves) from multiple sources (even if they are of compatable bonus types).
elonin 08-01-07, 02:07 AM	A lot of that is RPing..something to be discussed between player and DM...I as a DM would allow it...with a good story line from teh player and dedication to play it with out messing up....Evil can be redeemed...and a Paladin order would be one that would try and help facilitate such a miraculous happening. A blackguard has seen the error of his ways and falls on his knees at teh mercy of the paladin...said paladin takes black guard to order and over an extended period of time they keep watch over him, guiding and nurturing...they notice he is honest in his change of heart...and pray for him constantly...Divine Being sees this also..sees into blackguards heart and sees there is a purity renewed...bada-bing bada-boom new paladin is made... Would he get teh blackguard abilities..hell no...but a compromise would be in the works... If nothing else an atonement is in order as a base requirement of re-entry into paladin and at that point the dark powers would strip their bonuses from him. And he'd be on a very short leash.
Nigel Rorris 08-01-07, 02:11 AM	If nothing else an atonement is in order as a base requirement of re-entry into paladin and at that point the dark powers would strip their bonuses from him. And he'd be on a very short leash.Yes should have mentioned the atonement...and it does not happen automatically...if it happens during a game (odd game but hey who knows)...it would take many, many sessions to complete..maybe a year or more in RL...a decade potentially in GT...
Crashy75 08-01-07, 01:02 PM	I think what Crashy is getting at is that prerequisite means you need it beforehand, where as requirement means you continue to need it. Not just beforehand, but continuously. Am I right here Crashy? Thank you Poison Dusk. Communication is not my strong point. That is what I mean. Prerequisite could be interpreted to mean that while a requirement can not. Prerequisites are required in order to while requirements are simply required. I see it like a pen would be required to write a note but once the note is written, the pen is no longer necessary. In this sense, the pen is a prerequisite. A car requires gasoline to run. Gasoline is a requirement. Oddly enough, feats have prerequisites in the SRD at least.
Poison_Dusk 08-01-07, 01:48 PM	No problem, Crash. I must say, I think the best way to represent this, as I don't think that the bonuses stack, would use the hellbred. As DM Zoc said, you can't get charisma added to your saves multipule times. However, you do get a lot of free feats for being hellbred. I've been considering it myself.
GhostStepper 08-01-07, 04:26 PM	There's also an official ruling, on the books, that you can't get the same attribute bonus (Charisma) to the same value (saves) from multiple sources (even if they are of compatable bonus types). Where did you find this?
Hsien 08-01-07, 05:59 PM	Where did you find this? I'm not sure where they get that either, although it's plausible. The ( evil ) paladin's aura save bonus would not stack with the Blackguard's because it is actually called the same thing...I forget the name right now. Named bonuses/feats do not stack unless specified in description. Hexblade's arcane resistance could be debatable, as it is titled differently, even though it uses the same modifier. Not all that different then a Hexblade/Warmage/Sorceror getting bonus spells 3 times, once for each individual class, based of a good Charisma. But I haven't found the reference to the "official ruling" yet either.
Genetic 08-01-07, 06:02 PM	Unless the above ruling about the same attribute bonus applying to the same thing is true (I have not seen anything about it), you can stack the Hexblade, Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny, and the Blackguard charisma-to-save bonuses. Each one has a different name and is an un-named bonus. :) Of course, it's really lame and any sane DM would disallow it but that's another point entirely!
IRememberCecil 08-01-07, 06:21 PM	There's also an official ruling, on the books, that you can't get the same attribute bonus (Charisma) to the same value (saves) from multiple sources (even if they are of compatable bonus types). Wrong. No such ruling exists. Of course, it's really lame and any sane DM would disallow it but that's another point entirely! Would you mind not insulting me?
Genetic 08-01-07, 06:43 PM	Would you mind not insulting me? :P
Jaxgaret 08-01-07, 06:45 PM	Wrong. No such ruling exists. I concur, AFAIK it does not exist. Glad we can agree again, IRC! :)
Jaxgaret 08-01-07, 06:48 PM	Unless the above ruling about the same attribute bonus applying to the same thing is true (I have not seen anything about it), you can stack the Hexblade, Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny, and the Blackguard charisma-to-save bonuses. Each one has a different name and is an un-named bonus. :) Of course, it's really lame and any sane DM would disallow it but that's another point entirely! Why would you not allow it? It's not like a Hexblade/PoT/Blackguard is going to ruin your campaign. He'll be a real tough nut to crack for an enemy arcanist - but that's his thing. There's plenty of ways to counteract such high saves. Also, do you allow Druids or Clerics or Wizards in your game? This build has nothing on any of those three.
IRememberCecil 08-01-07, 06:57 PM	:P Okay, I admit I was trying to yank your chain. But I do allow this. I concur, AFAIK it does not exist. Glad we can agree again, IRC! :) But for how long, Mr. Spock, but for how long?
Jaxgaret 08-01-07, 06:59 PM	But for how long, Mr. Spock, but for how long? Only time will tell, Bones/Kirk.
Genetic 08-01-07, 07:12 PM	Why would you not allow it? It's not like a Hexblade/PoT/Blackguard is going to ruin your campaign. He'll be a real tough nut to crack for an enemy arcanist - but that's his thing. There's plenty of ways to counteract such high saves. Also, do you allow Druids or Clerics or Wizards in your game? This build has nothing on any of those three. I'm a person who thinks planar shepherds of Dal'Quor with fleshraker dinosaur animal companions are fun to play. ;) Maybe I should rephrase: Many DMs might look at the concept and say it's overpowered. Of course, it's very easy to get around... i.e. use orb spells or something. Of course that's when you take some other feats to boost your touch AC to about 45+ :D.
Jaxgaret 08-01-07, 07:16 PM	I'm a person who thinks planar shepherds of Dal'Quor with fleshraker dinosaur animal companions are fun to play. ;) Maybe I should rephrase: Many DMs might look at the concept and say it's overpowered. Of course, it's very easy to get around... i.e. use orb spells or something. Of course that's when you take some other feats to boost your touch AC to about 45+ :D. Is this sarcasm or not? I can't really tell.
Genetic 08-01-07, 07:18 PM	Is this sarcasm or not? I can't really tell. Half sarcasm, half seriousness. I don't actually run around with druids who can take 10 rounds to enemies' 1 round and have an animal companion who can dish out 30d6 damage per round at level 10. It's still fun to build the characters though. ;)
Jaxgaret 08-01-07, 07:32 PM	Half sarcasm, half seriousness. I don't actually run around with druids who can take 10 rounds to enemies' 1 round and have an animal companion who can dish out 30d6 damage per round at level 10. It's still fun to build the characters though. ;) Yes, but there is no comparison between a Planar Shepherd and a Hexblade/PoT/Blackguard. The PS will stomp the H-P-B into the ground. So will any Druid, or Cleric, or Wizard.
G_Mancer 08-02-07, 07:48 PM	so how does a PC sway the DM away from his "OMG your +20/18/17saves are way to overpowered to be allowable" these are the saves of a halfling Pot3-Hex3-rog2-Blk3...or something close.