Blackguard Prerequisites... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Blackguard Prerequisites... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
horrorshow
08-04-06, 08:52 AM One of the prerequisites for taking levels in blackguard is 5 ranks in hide. In my opinion, this should be interchangeable with a number of paladin class levels.

Here's why... Essentially, the blackguard class fills 2 roles; the fallen paladin and the evil black knight (and occasionally both at the same time). However, if I want my paladin to fall from grace, and he has low intellegence (in fact, a power gamer will likely use INT as the paladin's dump stat) then he must wait a good 5 levels building up his hide skill in order to become the blackguard. What, is he supposed to fill in with fighter levels and loose all his paladin abilities for ages while he learns how to hide?
The best alternative I can find is to take a level in rogue, as this sort of fits in, but still leaves the character underpowered for ages.
Hiding doesn't seem to be all that important a skill in relation to what any typical blackguard does. He doesn't hide in the shadows, he kicks the door down, and stands malevolently silhouetteed by the pale light outside, waiting for the PCs to react before delivering a chilling speech. (He is wearing clunky yet imposing black pointy plate mail after all :P)

Was Aribeth keeping a few levels in hide just so she could evade Lord Nasher? Hiding is a deceptive and indirect tactic that many paladins would deem too ignoble to use.

I think good alternatives would be either intimidate or bluff, as these could represent the paladin becoming more sinister as his strict lawfulness blinds him from what is right, as he bullies the 'good' out of people.
Another possible alternative would be to have alternative enrty requirements that are easier to meet, but only if you are a fallen paladin. I don't like the idea of havoing to wait between classes, and its ridiculous having to plan the switch, especially for 5 levels. Orders and churches would just kill all the paladins who can hide to save them turning, greater good and all that.
2nd Ed Paladin
08-04-06, 09:18 AM I agree it does seem to be an odd requirement, useful only with the sneak attack ability. It was likely there as one of those prereqs that will not be that usable to moderate the power of the PRC a bit. Keep in mind though that you don't need to be an ex-paladin to be a blackguard.

I think if you wanted to change it you should make it an ability that is as useful as hide is to an armour wearing blackguard. My recomendation would be somthing like 5 ranks in either - knowledge planes (goes with the dealing with an outsider) or concentration.
Bafaap
08-04-06, 09:47 AM I don't see what your problem is, 'cause if you're the DM, then you can change the rules and call it "house rules" and if you aren't then you just have to accept that your DM uses that rule.

And the ranks in hide are a easy way for a rogue to become a blackguard, which can be a quite useful combination.
Pyke_Moonshadow
08-04-06, 09:48 AM Keep in mind though that you don't need to be an ex-paladin to be a blackguard.

Exactly, hide ranks help make the class harder for certain types (like the paladin) to acquire but the paladin can then switch out his now useless abilities (depending on his level) so I see this as no real hinderance at all.
wvmmafan
08-12-06, 10:44 AM Black Guards rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Illithid_Tentacles
08-12-06, 04:56 PM What, is he supposed to fill in with fighter levels and loose all his paladin abilities for ages while he learns how to hide?

Well, he could do that, or he could just take a level (repeat: a level) of rogue. I doubt it's very common for PCs to have Intelligence scores of 3.
BadCatMan
08-12-06, 09:30 PM For the record, by her story, Aribeth started out as a vengeful orc-slaying Ranger, before moving to Paladin of Tyr, then falling to Blackguard.

Her in-game stats don't support this however, where she appears variously as a high-level cleric, low-level paladin, chaotic neutral, chaotic good, lawful evil, stats all over the place, and has wacky feats.

***

Hide is odd, but it suits the sneaky, devious, backstabbing Blackguard well. A Blackguard doesn't start out at the kick-the-door-down stage, he has to start somewhere.

But then, I like the sneaky, stealthy Blackguard. My NWN Blackguards are Rogue/Fighters.

***

Ranger is a good dip for the Blackguard, if not taking Rogue. Track, to seek out your victims. Wild Empathy, to influence vicious beasts and monsters, Favoured Enemy, to kill a particular type of creature better.
K_Man
08-12-06, 11:03 PM And, it is a sad fact of life, that with each new book, the standard rules and powers and classes and spells in the core 3 become less useful.

Look at most of the PrCs in the DMG and compare them to new ones in the Completes. Blackguard....Ronin is a good fill in, if the flavor is a little different; a Knight/Rogue/Assassin, if a little odd in thought, could be better than the Blackguard, with more varied skills. Horizon Walker....whatever. I like it, but unless you have a specific character in mind (Barbarian with the Desert abil to not get fatigued, for one), it isn't that great.

So, basically, do what you think.
Tequila_Sunrise
08-12-06, 11:45 PM The blackguard issue invariably comes up every so often. As I've said before, I'll say it again: the best solution is to ban the blackguard class and remove all alignment restrictions from the paladin class. Cut, dry and simple.
K_Man
08-13-06, 04:38 PM To second that, the Unearthed Arcana variant Paladins are great. If your group is evil, I would play a Paladin of Slaughter in a heartbeat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
horrorshow 08-04-06, 08:52 AM	One of the prerequisites for taking levels in blackguard is 5 ranks in hide. In my opinion, this should be interchangeable with a number of paladin class levels. Here's why... Essentially, the blackguard class fills 2 roles; the fallen paladin and the evil black knight (and occasionally both at the same time). However, if I want my paladin to fall from grace, and he has low intellegence (in fact, a power gamer will likely use INT as the paladin's dump stat) then he must wait a good 5 levels building up his hide skill in order to become the blackguard. What, is he supposed to fill in with fighter levels and loose all his paladin abilities for ages while he learns how to hide? The best alternative I can find is to take a level in rogue, as this sort of fits in, but still leaves the character underpowered for ages. Hiding doesn't seem to be all that important a skill in relation to what any typical blackguard does. He doesn't hide in the shadows, he kicks the door down, and stands malevolently silhouetteed by the pale light outside, waiting for the PCs to react before delivering a chilling speech. (He is wearing clunky yet imposing black pointy plate mail after all :P) Was Aribeth keeping a few levels in hide just so she could evade Lord Nasher? Hiding is a deceptive and indirect tactic that many paladins would deem too ignoble to use. I think good alternatives would be either intimidate or bluff, as these could represent the paladin becoming more sinister as his strict lawfulness blinds him from what is right, as he bullies the 'good' out of people. Another possible alternative would be to have alternative enrty requirements that are easier to meet, but only if you are a fallen paladin. I don't like the idea of havoing to wait between classes, and its ridiculous having to plan the switch, especially for 5 levels. Orders and churches would just kill all the paladins who can hide to save them turning, greater good and all that.
2nd Ed Paladin 08-04-06, 09:18 AM	I agree it does seem to be an odd requirement, useful only with the sneak attack ability. It was likely there as one of those prereqs that will not be that usable to moderate the power of the PRC a bit. Keep in mind though that you don't need to be an ex-paladin to be a blackguard. I think if you wanted to change it you should make it an ability that is as useful as hide is to an armour wearing blackguard. My recomendation would be somthing like 5 ranks in either - knowledge planes (goes with the dealing with an outsider) or concentration.
Bafaap 08-04-06, 09:47 AM	I don't see what your problem is, 'cause if you're the DM, then you can change the rules and call it "house rules" and if you aren't then you just have to accept that your DM uses that rule. And the ranks in hide are a easy way for a rogue to become a blackguard, which can be a quite useful combination.
Pyke_Moonshadow 08-04-06, 09:48 AM	Keep in mind though that you don't need to be an ex-paladin to be a blackguard. Exactly, hide ranks help make the class harder for certain types (like the paladin) to acquire but the paladin can then switch out his now useless abilities (depending on his level) so I see this as no real hinderance at all.
wvmmafan 08-12-06, 10:44 AM	Black Guards rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Illithid_Tentacles 08-12-06, 04:56 PM	What, is he supposed to fill in with fighter levels and loose all his paladin abilities for ages while he learns how to hide? Well, he could do that, or he could just take a level (repeat: a level) of rogue. I doubt it's very common for PCs to have Intelligence scores of 3.
BadCatMan 08-12-06, 09:30 PM	For the record, by her story, Aribeth started out as a vengeful orc-slaying Ranger, before moving to Paladin of Tyr, then falling to Blackguard. Her in-game stats don't support this however, where she appears variously as a high-level cleric, low-level paladin, chaotic neutral, chaotic good, lawful evil, stats all over the place, and has wacky feats. * Hide is odd, but it suits the sneaky, devious, backstabbing Blackguard well. A Blackguard doesn't start out at the kick-the-door-down stage, he has to start somewhere. But then, I like the sneaky, stealthy Blackguard. My NWN Blackguards are Rogue/Fighters. * Ranger is a good dip for the Blackguard, if not taking Rogue. Track, to seek out your victims. Wild Empathy, to influence vicious beasts and monsters, Favoured Enemy, to kill a particular type of creature better.
K_Man 08-12-06, 11:03 PM	And, it is a sad fact of life, that with each new book, the standard rules and powers and classes and spells in the core 3 become less useful. Look at most of the PrCs in the DMG and compare them to new ones in the Completes. Blackguard....Ronin is a good fill in, if the flavor is a little different; a Knight/Rogue/Assassin, if a little odd in thought, could be better than the Blackguard, with more varied skills. Horizon Walker....whatever. I like it, but unless you have a specific character in mind (Barbarian with the Desert abil to not get fatigued, for one), it isn't that great. So, basically, do what you think.
Tequila_Sunrise 08-12-06, 11:45 PM	The blackguard issue invariably comes up every so often. As I've said before, I'll say it again: the best solution is to ban the blackguard class and remove all alignment restrictions from the paladin class. Cut, dry and simple.
K_Man 08-13-06, 04:38 PM	To second that, the Unearthed Arcana variant Paladins are great. If your group is evil, I would play a Paladin of Slaughter in a heartbeat.