Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arturius1 04-16-06, 01:46 PM	An ex-paladin can turn his previous levels into blackguard levels, right? Right. But what if you go into blackguard without going into paladin. If the blackguard redeemed himself and became LG, could he put his blackguard levels into paladin? And if so, what would the bonuses be?
StakeTeriyake 04-16-06, 01:53 PM	I would usually say no, as evil uses those bonuses to seduce and entice good aligned characters toward evil. Good instead holds to a higher ideal, that you change because you mean it, and not because they offered kewl dark powerz. By that same token, good would insist that you live with the choices you've made in your past, and rather than try to erase your mistakes, it is better to live with and learn from them. A Blackguard who lives a life of debauchery and evil and then redeems him/herself would have to live with the choices he/she has made, and grow from it, while a Paladin who falls from grace takes solace in his new powers, thus lessening any thoughts that maybe it wasn't worth it. Good expects you to work for your ideals, while evil would rather you ignore them...
The_Shaman 04-16-06, 03:12 PM	Still, perhaps the experience acquired as a blackguard may come in handy none the less... You should certainly retain the poison use ability and the sneak attack damage, and perhaps you could get a bonus to some of your saves, esp. to enchantment/compulsion: after duking it out with the best and worst, your character should not be easy to impress. Also, you could perhaps use your reputation, unsavory as it may be, as a weapon. Sounds strange? Let me put it this way. You've betrayed all that was holy and withstood the attacks of all the "champions" they sent at you. Then you turned away from your much less forgiving fiendish allies, and lived to tell the tale. Both times your ex-allies have probably tried to win you back or kill you. Both times they've failed, even though by the time you became a blackguard they were fully aware you can betray and have betrayed, and were probably better prepared. Yet they were still not prepared enough. If you have truly turned away from evil, regardless of whether you are "good" or "neutral," you would already be a name everyone has heard of. People may actually wonder if you truly exist, a man or a woman that has twice broken away from things supposedly one is chained to for life. Every bard worth his salt would kill and die to speak with you. The assassin themselves eye you from the shadows, wondering what it would be like to go against someone so elusive... and wondering what your skill must be like to have defeated all of those who had tried to end your life before. Yes, every adventurer of your skills, experience and abilities is well-known, but you have a reputation and charisma that exceeds that of any other. If you still travel with your original name, you inspire awe and dread in all who see you. If you have changed your name to avoid the infamy it brings, it still strikes a chord when you hear about your deeds in ballads and rumors, as people wonder where you have disappeared - and can it be that you are still alive?
Ravag3r 04-16-06, 03:28 PM	Obviously, from a RAW standpoint, no. However, were I DMing such a conundrum, I would probably allow for a reverse level transfer.
Ryusage 04-16-06, 06:19 PM	also, remember that an ex-paladin can only exchange levels if he has 11 levels in paladin.
Fuzzy_Logic 04-16-06, 07:28 PM	from a storyteller's standpoint, yes, an ex-blackguard can become a paladin, BUT they must then die in an irrevocable fashion almost immediately afterwards
Arturius1 04-16-06, 09:20 PM	Still, perhaps the experience acquired as a blackguard may come in handy none the less... You should certainly retain the poison use ability and the sneak attack damage, and perhaps you could get a bonus to some of your saves, esp. to enchantment/compulsion: after duking it out with the best and worst, your character should not be easy to impress. Also, you could perhaps use your reputation, unsavory as it may be, as a weapon. Sounds strange? Let me put it this way. You've betrayed all that was holy and withstood the attacks of all the "champions" they sent at you. Then you turned away from your much less forgiving fiendish allies, and lived to tell the tale. Both times your ex-allies have probably tried to win you back or kill you. Both times they've failed, even though by the time you became a blackguard they were fully aware you can betray and have betrayed, and were probably better prepared. Yet they were still not prepared enough. If you have truly turned away from evil, regardless of whether you are "good" or "neutral," you would already be a name everyone has heard of. People may actually wonder if you truly exist, a man or a woman that has twice broken away from things supposedly one is chained to for life. Every bard worth his salt would kill and die to speak with you. The assassin themselves eye you from the shadows, wondering what it would be like to go against someone so elusive... and wondering what your skill must be like to have defeated all of those who had tried to end your life before. Yes, every adventurer of your skills, experience and abilities is well-known, but you have a reputation and charisma that exceeds that of any other. If you still travel with your original name, you inspire awe and dread in all who see you. If you have changed your name to avoid the infamy it brings, it still strikes a chord when you hear about your deeds in ballads and rumors, as people wonder where you have disappeared - and can it be that you are still alive? From what I gather, you're talking about a paladin that fell then returned to the light. I'm talking about being evil from the get-go, then redeeming yourself.
The_Shaman 04-16-06, 09:53 PM	Oh, sorry, my bad. Well, a blackguard involves a fall somewhere, but still... Actually, I see one problem. Leaving your beliefs and alliances, even if they were evil, would not be considered lawful in most cases. Think about it - essentially, unless your organization turns on you first, you are a traitor. I'm not quite sure if paladins would accept such a member.
Ziggaraut 04-16-06, 09:58 PM	Still, perhaps the experience acquired as a blackguard may come in handy none the less... You should certainly retain the poison use ability and the sneak attack damage, and perhaps you could get a bonus to some of your saves, esp. to enchantment/compulsion: after duking it out with the best and worst, your character should not be easy to impress. Also, you could perhaps use your reputation, unsavory as it may be, as a weapon. Sounds strange? Let me put it this way. You've betrayed all that was holy and withstood the attacks of all the "champions" they sent at you. Then you turned away from your much less forgiving fiendish allies, and lived to tell the tale. Both times your ex-allies have probably tried to win you back or kill you. Both times they've failed, even though by the time you became a blackguard they were fully aware you can betray and have betrayed, and were probably better prepared. Yet they were still not prepared enough. If you have truly turned away from evil, regardless of whether you are "good" or "neutral," you would already be a name everyone has heard of. People may actually wonder if you truly exist, a man or a woman that has twice broken away from things supposedly one is chained to for life. Every bard worth his salt would kill and die to speak with you. The assassin themselves eye you from the shadows, wondering what it would be like to go against someone so elusive... and wondering what your skill must be like to have defeated all of those who had tried to end your life before. Yes, every adventurer of your skills, experience and abilities is well-known, but you have a reputation and charisma that exceeds that of any other. If you still travel with your original name, you inspire awe and dread in all who see you. If you have changed your name to avoid the infamy it brings, it still strikes a chord when you hear about your deeds in ballads and rumors, as people wonder where you have disappeared - and can it be that you are still alive? Nah, at this point you should enter some super class that isn't paladin or blackguard MUST CREATE!
scienceman47 04-16-06, 10:47 PM	Once you head down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny
runestar 04-16-06, 11:35 PM	So much for all that cr@p about forgiveness and redemption that good keeps harping about... :rolleyes:
Far_Traveler 04-16-06, 11:53 PM	Archguard The Blackguard faced the celestial council of his past paladin orde, broken and bleeding. "Traitor, this is your last chance. We shall forgive you if you repent, truly now. But know that you shall forever lose your power over the aspects of good or evil." "You would forgive me, even after I slaughtered the order, wounded the elder, and am at the mercy of your vengence? And on top of this, you expect me to give up the only power i have ever known?" "...................................Done." "Good, now you shall... WHAT!? WHAT IS THIS!?" Drakorv, The one who fell and fell from the fallen, screamed. Prerequisetes: Alignment: True Nuetral Special: You must of been a paladin who converted to blackguard, and then take another level of paladin NOTE: you must NOT allow anyone to have levels in this class at creation BaB: full Fort/will: full Ref: poor Skills: 2 + int mod, Class skills fo both Paladin and Blackguard class features: 1st: Fall from Grace, Rise from Depths, Sword of All Souls 2nd: Smite 1/day 3rd: Resolution 4th: Minor Channel 1/day 5th: Smite 2/day 6th: Judge 1/day 7th: Lesser Channel 2/day 8th: Smite 3/day 9th: Judge 2/day 10th: Channel 3/day 11th: Smite 4/day, Utter Wrath 12th: Judge 3/day, Judgement 13th: Greater Channel 4/day, Channeling 14th: Smite 5/day 15th: Judge 4/day 16th: Greater Channel 5/day, Efficient Channeling 17th: Smite 6/day 18th: Judge 5/day, Punish 19th: Arch Channeling 20th: Hatred 7/day, Twin Soul Class Features: An Archguard gains no new proficiencies Fall from Grace: You must trade in all paladin levels for levels in this class Rise from Depths: You must trade in all Blackguard level for levels in this class Sword of all Souls(Su): All weapons and natural weapons the Archguard wields are aligned to all alignments, and at 14th have the Holy, Unholy, Axiomatic, and Anarchaic property. You gain no negetive levels from this ability. Smite(Su): For one melee attack a round, you may use this ability to charge your strike with power. You gain your charisma modifier as a bonus to attack, and your class level to damage. You gain this ability 1/day at 2nd level, and 1/day more every 3 levels after 2nd Resolution(Su): As per Divine Grace Channel(Sp): When you first get this ability, you may use this to restore 1 hit point per 4 levels, or harm one person for that amount. at 7th it is 1 per 3 levels, 10th half level, 13th 2 per 3, and at 13th full. if you harm someone, There is a will save for half damage (DC= 10 + half level + cha modifier). you may use his multiple times a day as per the chart. This is a Standard Action that Requires Touch Judge(Sp): Your may pass judgement on someone an amount of times per day as on the chart, they must pass a will save (DC= 10 + half level + cha modifier) or take a -4 morale penalty on attacks, damage, saves, and checks for 1 minute per class level. this is a Standard Action with a range of 30 feet Utter Wrath(Sp): You may inflict Your level Plus Your Charisma Modifier as damage to one creature as a standard Action. this uses a use of your Smite ability. this ability has a Range of 30 feet Judgement(Sp): You may use two uses of your Judge Ability to inflict 3 people at once, 3 uses to inflict 6 people, 4 uses to inflict 10 people, and so on. Channeling(Sp): You may use two uses of your Channel to damage a foe and heal yourself at one step down of efficiency Efficient Channeling(Sp): You no longer has to degrade your efficincy to use channeling. Punish(Sp): When you Judge someone succesfully, you may expend a use of your smite ability to Deal your level plus your charisma modifier in damage, and they are stunned for 1d4 rounds if they fail another save at the same DC (but they have the -4 penalty) Arch Channeling(Sp): you now have a energy repository of your class level x cha mod x 1.5, you may heal or harm, or steal at 3/4 power at any increment with this pool. Twin Soul(Su): You have a transformation. You gain a fly speed equal to twice your land speed with average manuverability, with one bat and one bird wing. you now have a black side and a white side of your body. You become an Outsider (Augmented ___, Good, Evil, Lawful, Chaotic)
Archmagi1976 04-17-06, 12:14 AM	Lets look at it this way... You were evil to the core... Then you fell from the darkness? That would be a boon to every good group in the land (that is if they believed it.) There are a few problems though from a player stand point... "People have long Memories!" Lets look at a retorical problem here: You raped, killed, tortured (pick one or all) someones loved one. Now that person meets you later in the street and places a blade against your throat. If you are truely good, you try to talk the person down and you could and probably would die in the process unless you were really good in diplomicy. (Including the penalties you take from those previous actions.) If I was the evil gods who gave you those powers, I honestly would allow you to keep them. How hard would it be to say that you were good when you have a known evil familiar hanging around you? Ask me about spell casting? I would allow you to keep that also, every time you use it... It is a taint and another step on the path back to evil. But I would as a DM keep to these beliefs. You would affectively turn evil by taking one step towards that dirrection again. You can keep all the evil powers, but using them means that you are taking another step back to us... From good to Nuetral, and from there, back into my arms... :evillaugh Evil is temptation when you truely need it. Being good means letting your self and the party possibly die then going back to the dark side. That should be the tempation, you have your powers but to use them would be evil. Even if they were no longer evil... People seeing you use your powers would never believe that you had gone good and still used your old powers. on top of that having a ex-black guard who "Purposefully" tries not to harm others would be interesting in the extreme and hard to play. Good luck.
periscope 04-17-06, 12:29 AM	the site Community3e.com had an uber prestige class for those who had fallen from grace and came back toward the light. It last ability let you Kamikaze yourself for massive damage to the enemy(s). I think it had a trade in levels of Blackguard ability but I could be wrong. I dont remeber the name of it though so you'll have to find out on your own.
Arturius1 04-17-06, 02:11 AM	I'd rather not look for it at all since it had nothing to do with my original question. I appreciate the input, but some of you are talking about a paladin that fell, became a blackguard, then became good again. I'm talking about something other than paladin, say fighter for instance, that became a blackguard, and, for whatever reason, redeemed himself. I know there's no official rule, but would it be too outrageous to allow the reedemed blackguard to convert his PrC levels into class levels in paladin? (My apologies if I come off rude, but I am not used to so much spam over a simple question.)
DrakaraGM 04-17-06, 03:03 AM	An evil individual who saw the light -- truly became good and lawful -- should be able to take paladin levels regardless of previous actions. Atonement for past deeds might be needed, but that would be a matter for the GM to work out. Taking that one step further, a truly evil individual who had a truly life-altering convsersion to serve the Light (however you want to describe going from a murderous Blackguard to one who would actually qualify for and accept the role of a Paladin) might well be allowed to trade in levels of the PrC for levels of the Paladin class. It would probably be a form of divine or holy intervention -- as the ex-Blackguard casts himself on the mercy of the Light and begs for forgiveness and redemption -- i.e. might involve much role-play, perhaps a quest, whatever, either in-game or as a matter of serious discussion between player and GM. As a GM, I would allow it IF I thought the conversion to LG and associated ramifications were legitimate. Perhaps one fewer Paladin levels would be appropriate -- if to atone for his past sins the character is willing to die in order to be reborn in the Light. The character could essentially, in a ritual manner, fall upon his own sword, and then be brought back to life with a raise dead spell, losing a level in the process BUT as part of the ritual being reborn with no Blackguard levels and several Paladin levels. From a role-playing standpoint, the character is inclined towards fanaticism but now has a focus on making up for past sins -- there is nobody as fanatical as a reformed sinner... :-) And no, the level loss should not be able to be gotten around by using a more powerful spell that revives a dead character without level loss. The deity providing the spell -- and more importantly, imbuing the character with all the abilities of a paladin while simultaneously stripping away the last remnants of the character's career as a blackguard -- knows exactly what is going on and is not going to give the character a free pass, as it were, and without sacrifice there is no reward, in this case. Loss of a level to revamp the character in such a signicant manner seems fairly appropriate. In terms of abilities, all Blackguard abilities would be gone, and new Paladin abilities would be in place as appropriate. (As the two classes somewhat mirror each other, this isn't so much of a change as a reversal of focus.) Non-Blackguard levels -- i.e. fighter levels or whatever prior to becoming a Blackuard -- would remain as they were. Adjustments would be made to hit points and skills and so on for the lost level. And the lost level would be an appropriate indication of the character's true conversion. If the character is not willing to lose a level, then he is stuck with the rules as they apply to the situation -- i.e. whatever happens when you no longer satisfy the prerequisites of your prestige class, such as no longer being evil as a Blackguard...which can certainly be interesting in its own right. Anyway, that is how I would handle it -- if the character is willing to give up a level to redeem himself, that would be a true indication of his holy fervor...
Archmagi1976 04-17-06, 03:05 AM	lol Yes, you did get a lot of spam. Sorry if my suggestion or view what not what you were looking for. Part of the reasoning behind my post is that, good takes away things easily because they fear it being used towards good people. As in it would tip the scales badly. Now evil has a very different view, using evil spells on evil people in a lot of ways just promotes the entire view of that side anyways. In a way it is why they have the atone spell for good people but if memory serves I do not know of one for evil. Evil is easy, it gives power fast and easily. Good is hard, and when you tip the scales it tends to be very hard to get back. I think if you made a PrC to switch back to good then at the most it should give you only half the level bonus that the blackguard gives you if none at all. Think of it as an attonement? It sorta goes with the flair of evil vs. good. If good were easy we all would do it... I hope this is more of what you were looking for.
Far_Traveler 04-17-06, 01:40 PM	not even a little critique for my class? :P fine, ill repost it
Arturius1 04-17-06, 02:00 PM	You made a 20 level PrC. Congratulations. Nobody will play that to level 20.
Far_Traveler 04-17-06, 02:57 PM	Why not? those abilities are pretty cool... is he underpowered? All levels in blackguard and paladin are transformed into archguard levels... thats why i made him backloaded.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 04-17-06, 03:13 PM	from a storyteller's standpoint, yes, an ex-blackguard can become a paladin, BUT they must then die in an irrevocable fashion almost immediately afterwards Preferably while killing the person who tempted them into evil by tossing them into a reactor core.
Chimaera2000 04-17-06, 09:47 PM	I actually remember reading a thread on the Star Wars RPG forums speculating about what would have happened if Darth Vader had survived after he'd been redeemed.... Back on topic, in a core-only game, I would personally allow for a blackguard to redeem himself after an atonement spell and possibly a heroic quest to prove themselves. If other material is allowed, I personally would scrap both the paladin and blackguard and use a class that allowed for divine warriors of any alignment. That way, you can have the roleplaying of redemption without the mechanical fuss, having the side benefit of being able to play divine warriors who aren't evil or lawful good. As such, I came up with a class for this called the champion (link in my signature). It's balanced and flavorful, so feel free to check it out.
MadRaccoon 04-18-06, 03:19 AM	I think that evil characters that turn to the light should actually get MORE powerful than the average good character. The fall is easy because "the dark side is the quick and easy path." Evil and selfish behavior is easy to do and easy to stick with, so the benefits should be minimal, but going the other way, especially in the fantasy genre should be a long and difficult path that really pays off in the long run. I suggest a new prestige class even more strict than the paladin's code, but even more powerful, for those that rise from the darkness. It should definately be doable.
scienceman47 04-19-06, 06:01 PM	I'd rather not look for it at all since it had nothing to do with my original question. I appreciate the input, but some of you are talking about a paladin that fell, became a blackguard, then became good again. I'm talking about something other than paladin, say fighter for instance, that became a blackguard, and, for whatever reason, redeemed himself. I know there's no official rule, but would it be too outrageous to allow the reedemed blackguard to convert his PrC levels into class levels in paladin? (My apologies if I come off rude, but I am not used to so much spam over a simple question.) Yes, blackguard and paladin levels are not some interchangable currency you can go mucking around with. So stop it and deal. Unless of course you decide to stat a PrC for this.
Eragon_seer 04-24-06, 06:07 PM	well if you were a black gaurd and went good id say to be a paladan you would need at lot of atonment id say that much and you would not gain any bonuses being evil wont help you be good :looloo:
The_Shaman 04-24-06, 07:33 PM	Well, if your conversion was sincere, and you have done a great service to the good gods/spirits with it, you could become a paladin (assuming you go to LG alignment). Basically, a paladin is a champion of the deity, blessed with particular powers, and favor and blessings/powers are something the gods can give and withhold as they see fit. Reputation among mortals is not always something D&D deities need take into account. The fact that the people and other paladins will certainly NOT acknowledge an ex-blackguard as a paladin does not mean s/he is not one, although paladins are not typically persecuted and pelted with rotten tomatoes and dead cats... Hmm, an interesting idea :D . Although, there is another problem: normally, changing one's alignment is a slightly chaotic act, as it involves rejection of one's previous moral code and a certain lack of steadfastness. So if the ex-blackguard had once been good, it is unlikely that a deity or an organization would consider him a good candidate for a paladin in the first place. Divine champion would be perfectly OK, but it a character who has changed their alignment more than once in their adventuring career would be an unlikely paladin at best. On the Archguard: I think the concept is that someone falls and then is redeemed, not pursues both redemption and corruption simultaneously... And the class seems tad overpowered, I think.
Fuzzy_Logic 04-30-06, 10:20 AM	first of all, Paladins don't get their powers from gods. re-read the PHB. Second, Other paladins, I think, would have to recognize the redeemed as one of their number. Paladins, I've always believed, are allies and brothers in arms, friendly to one another regardless of history and origin.
The_Shaman 04-30-06, 01:05 PM	On point one: paladins need not be devoted to deities, but they can (PHB, p.43, uppermost left paragraph). "Those who align themselves with a particular religions prefer Heironeous (god of valor) over all others, but some paladins favor Pelor (the sun god). Paladins devoted to a god are scrupulous in observing religious duties and are welcome in every associated temple." Their abilities come from a "divine power" (p.42), which is not specified - could be the from one of the celestial hebdomad, or a deity, or no idea what (kind of like the alignment priests). It is the source of their protective and healing powers. The spells themselves (an indication of the source of a paladin's supernatural powers) point to some divine source, but the closest indication that it may be a deity is the presence of the prayer spell (I have no experience as a DM, but usually one prays to a deity, not an abstract principle). Also, the description of divine favor mentions that the power granted comes from a deity. At any rate, a god is a perfectly viable option for a paladin's powers. On point two: if the redeemed one was a paladin, and then fell enough to become a blackguard, his (or her) former comrades would be a bit reluctant to grant him their trust as fully as the first time again. A paladin may get kicked out of the order for many things, some as little connected with evil as, for example, having an extramarital affair. Being a blackguard, the way I understand it, is a lot more than what your regular atonement spell takes care of. Even if his reconversion to good is complete, two such great changes of belief indicate that that person's resolve is sometimes dubious, and resolve is one of the things a paladin should have in abundance. Basically, if he managed to switch sides so big twice, how are they going to be sure it won't happen a third time? Paladins are, often, only human, and I'm not sure they will be able to trust such a man fully. And if they don't trust him, why would they accept him? A paladin may hold great respect and be allied with many non-paladins, but those from his order should normally be the people he trusts completely and associates most with.
katman 04-30-06, 02:02 PM	The idea of a reverse transfer poses a conundrum. There is some support for it in Hasidic Jewish thinking, for instance, but also some obstacles. There are stories of Hasidic rabbis converting thieves and bandits in analogous terms, informing them that should they come to G-d, their past sins would be accounted as if they were good deeds in G-d's eyes. This would NOT remove the moral taint of their past behaviour, note - it reflects the value of the change, and the effort that's going to be required by a truly good person to make amends for their past behaviour. On the other hand, the Hasidic tales were not speaking of someone who was a Blackguard, which involves a different level of evil. Judaism does believe that it is possible to do things that cannot really be fully redeemed or forgiven, and a Blackguard may well have reached that point. Note that this is a belief set that differs from Christianity on the issue of forgiveness - this article is very enlightening on that score (http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0302/articles/soloveichik.html). In game terms, this doesn't mean that good will reject them, but it will bar the way to things like Paladinhood. if you're using a culturally Christian framework for your thinking, on the other hand, then forgiveness is always possible no matter what and the reverse transfer is easier to justify as a manifestation of the prodigal son concept. Easiest of all if you watch the TV show "Angel," of course. :) So, how do we translate this into game terms? First, I'd allow a 1/1 switch from Blackguard to Ranger, with a period of conversion whereby Blackguard abilities are lost and Ranger powers grow. Time spent as a Penitent Hermit is a good way to handle this, and Rangers no longer have to be good so good/evil becomes an independent issue. One that good will attend to (see below), but one that doesn't impinge on class ability exercise and so the focus will be less on testing and more on teaching. Now, if you want to become a Paladin... IF the blackguard has not polluted their soul beyond full redemption (DM's call), I'd allow the reverse switch, but with a twist. The Blackguard gains the levels, but only some good deities will accept them (you're more likely to become a Paladin of Rao or Pelor than Heironeous), and many of the accompanying abilities other than combat power have to be "unlocked" by behaviour over time. * The alignment switch costs a level. So be it. * I'd give detect evil right off the bat - possibly even enhanced by giving an ex-blackguard the ability to do rounds 1&2 of the scan in one round. They grok evil on a different level. * I'd also add a Holy Smite at either 1st level power (1/day) or -6 levels equivalent. * Detect spalls on the anti-Paladin do NOT start out detecting as good. They come back muddled, detecting as good AND evil both. There is a lingering taint, and it will only be removed with time. This will present problems when dealing with potential allies. * No other powers immediately unless discretion advises. After that, the DM's role-playing really comes in. You have to play the role of the powers of good. They want the ex-blackguard to succeed, but at the same time are going to have to see that the blackguard is really serious and not going to backslide before they're comfortable accepting him or her and granting full powers. Or (and this is a bigger concern) granting the ability to gain their followers' trust and so being able to betray them by wearing the faith's insignia et. al. They're going to set up tests, many of which may be seen as minor diversions because... You also have to play the role of evil. The Blackguard has just painted a huge target on their back once their former faith finds out, and the higher-level the Blackguard, the faster this will happen. ("Hi, Johannis, it's Dexoroth the Gelugon. You don't call any more, you don't write, you don't sacrifice virgins. Are you visiting a college dorm where there aren't any, or is something the matter?") This will happen fastest of all in an evil adventuring party, of course, and one of them will surely sell the Blackguard out for 30 pieces of silver or whatever the going rate is. Once the old faith finds out, they're going to come after the Blackguard big time. And the Blackguard isn't going to have open allies, at least at first. That's part of the trial, the beginnings of feeling the weight of evil, acceptance of the first step which is openness to self-sacrifice, and display of the determination to truly fight evil at all costs. Note that the Blackguard need not die, though some do at this stage and if so, their souls are considered redeemed. Good is smart. In many ways, good is smarter than evil, and they also play a larger game of redemption not just power. Play it that way. for instance: * The Blackguard does NOT begin with the right to wear the vestments or insignias of the good faith chosen. They must not wear the open insignias of their old faith, and must pick up an object to use as a focus instead. Headbands of thorns and obsidian shards are popular for these purposes (in some cases, a pebble to be kept in their footwear may also substitute). The item will change as the blackguard demonstrates a real change (the crown of thorns first becomes green then sprouts flowers; the obsidian shard goes gray, then white with the deity's symbol; the pebble wears down until one day the Blackguard finds a holy Symbol in his/her shoes; etc. * Powers to be given will correspond to the challenges the Blackguard will face, and the Powers of good have pretty good information gathering. If he was a Knight of Obsidian Death and the DM is sending minions of Nerull his way, Undead-related powers may be offered faster or in substitution for something else like Holy Smite. If she was a Knight of the Wasting Stave and the DM knows that the minions of Incabulos are headed her way, good will grant Divine health. Etc. * Betrayal cuts both ways. Good understands that evil encourages it, but evil doesn't tolerate it in turn and doesn't do forgiveness. They'll work to set the Blackguard up so it must betray its former faith, or very flagrantly transgress key tenets. * Good faiths know folks are coming for the Blackguard. Open support risks a trap, and provides openings for betrayal. Covert support does not, and this is a rare evil hunting opportunity where they are forced onto open ground. Bluntly, the Blackguard will be used as bait - and quite a few of the folks sent by evil aren't going to make it to the Blackguard. Good hunting! But the ones that do make it will be challenge aplenty. * Good faiths will steer the Blackguard toward moral challenges that inconvenience him/her and cost him something. The blackguard is not expected to be suicidal, but is expected to treat the challenges seriously and perform acceptably. If taken seriously, each challenge will also have a moral lesson. Note that "perform acceptably" is not perfectly, and things performed imperfectly may result in further visions etc. aimed at correcting the results of those mistakes. The point is to educate the Blackguard and provide opportunities for proof of good intentions, not to reject or deject it. This will all be happening, of course, in the middle of a very real fight for survival. * The Blackguard may not get a lot of thanks for the good deeds performed, but good is going to be careful about morale. Make the road to goodness hard, but provide "rays of light" that help the Blackguard keep going. * Part of the Blackguard's biggest unlearning will be trusting others. It's not all about them any more. This is often a component of the final lessons and/or climax fight, where opportunities for allies will arise along the way and must have been seized for victory to be possible. * If good is more suspicious of the Blackguard than usual for some reason, its agents have been known to get very tactical. For instance, let's say their followers have been trying to find the major local evil bad guy lair, and this lair is going to come after the Blackguard, and good is suspicious (a higher-level Blackguard, for instance). They steer the Blackguard through the trials, but throttle back their help. The result is a decent likelihood that the Blackguard will be captured by evil and taken to the local biggie's lair, possibly passing from the lairs of lesser minions up the chain. The Blackguard will suffer. The Blackguard will be tortured, even maimed. The Blackguard will probably be offered an opportunity to return to the fold, or recruit into a different evil organization. And in the depths of darkness, the Blackguard will come to know others who suffer, too. What do they do? Do they help others in the darkness, even though they may be betrayed in a set-up (not an uncommon tactic when trying to break someone, but good will also subtly steer them toward those who are truly needy)? Do they renounce good under duress? Good has been tracking their boy, of course, and its minions are going to rumble the stronghold of evil (they'll pick a stronghold their minions can handle, but those minions will be augmented by calls for aid that reach a long way - PC parties make good recruits for this!). When they finish, they'll retrieve the Blackguard and crush a stronghold of wickedness. A two-fer... and if the Blackguard was faithful despite all, they will receive whatever healing is required and arise as a full Paladin of the same level. If the Blackguard turned, well, he may die with the stronghold and so be it. If the Blackgard broke but did not fully turn (rejoining the ranks of evil and then betraying them, for instance), it's up to the DM to play the powers of good and react intelligently (I'd set the Blackguard a new quest: become a Penitent Hermit, at the end of which they will arise as a Ranger but never a Paladin - they've just shown me that they're sneaky thinkers and willing to fight for good so I'll use that, but a Paladin must understand self-sacrifice and hold to the light at whatever cost). Of course, the role-playing does NOT end. A former Blackguard will always have some challenges on that score among those of good, but there will be some allies as well and others will actually seek them out for insights. The treatment of Drizzt Do'Urden is a good guideline. Hope these thoughts help.