Blackguards and Paladins [Archive] - Wizards Community

Blackguards and Paladins [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Elurindel
11-22-04, 03:42 AM Greetings to everybody on these boards. This is my first post and first thread, so I hope I don't botch it up.

My dilemma is concerning the Class of Paladin and the Prestige class Blackguard.
In order to be a Paladin, like my character, one has to be Lawful Good, and one must remain Lawful Good in order to keep spells, powers and abilities. However, with the blackguard, if the Paladin becomes a Blackguard, he gains more powers than, for example, a fighter who becomes a blackguard, as "those who have tasted the light of goodness and justice and turned away make the foulest villains" as the DM's Guide says.
What it doesn't cover is this, if a Paladin loses their powers if they commit acts of evil, and can gain Blackguard powers if they fall from grace, why can't Blackguard players lose their powers if they commit acts of good, or return to the light and become a shining example of justice?
Voldenuit
11-22-04, 04:33 AM Nothing says Blackguards can't "return to grace". Note that a class requirement for the PrC is "Alignment: Any Evil". Although there is some controversy on the issue, most people rule that losing the prerequisites to a PrC means you can no longer access the class abilities of said class.

Blackguards who commit isolated Good acts are unlikely to lose any abilities, since most evil deities care more about their own agenda than for any "ideal" of Evil (unlike the Good deities, who at worst try to avoid the appearance of evil). However, a blackguard whose actions thwart his deities goals (even unintentionally) will probably get a visit from a very nasty fiend with an even nastier sword...
Elurindel
11-22-04, 04:38 AM You have a good point there, but I just don't see why blackguards get extra powers for being ex-paladins, and not vice-versa.
gbnogkfs
11-22-04, 04:55 AM You can answer in more than one way...

Paladin is a Base Class, it is in the PHB, it is normal to be picked at 1st level, and the route Pal -> BG is much more likely than the other way around; the DMG (where the BG is described, and is read after the PHB) so only spoke about a Paladin becoming Blackguard. In my opinion, the authors didn't really think about a BG becoming Pal.

then, there could be a "balancing" factor: it is generally considered "more munchkin" to use a caotic and/or evil character with respect to a legal/good, because people generally assume they are "less" tied by a moral code, and more free to act as they choose; so they reward a BG who has spent levels constricted in the Paladin role, while the other way around is different.

But there are really no definitive answers: if you feel to give BG something for becoming Pals, that should be fine.
Elurindel
11-22-04, 05:00 AM I admit that becoming a paladin from a blackguard is unlikely, given the amount of feats one has to learn first. The main question is, do you think the blackguard should retain his dark powers if he becomes a paladin?
steenan
11-22-04, 05:29 AM Of course he shouldn't!

Who would give him those powers? The evil deity he turned against or the good deity he follows now, who surely doesn't grant any "dark powers" to anyone?

It's also quite obvious to me that there should be no boni for paladins for being ex-blackguards. Being good is never an easy way to gain power. It's usual for Evil to lure the good ones with power - but Good doesn't lure anyone...
Elurindel
11-22-04, 05:33 AM I completely understand the point you're getting at, it wouldn't be feasible in a 3.5 version, but for some reason it's ok in NWN. Guess they didn't think it through.
Although you never know, a Good deity may see the spark of good inside somebody, or see that they do not enjoy being a servant of a corrupt king or suchlike, and might be given the chance to repent and become the opposite of that which they hate.
[GSV] Kirstar
11-22-04, 05:55 AM in our games we have removed paladin as a base class, and use it as a prestige class similar to blackguard.

the reason for this being that once you reach 5th level paladin, there is no reason to continue as all you really get is more cure diseases and a few more points lay on hands.

in our games you would loose the powers of blackguard by going against the evil dieties aims.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elurindel 11-22-04, 03:42 AM	Greetings to everybody on these boards. This is my first post and first thread, so I hope I don't botch it up. My dilemma is concerning the Class of Paladin and the Prestige class Blackguard. In order to be a Paladin, like my character, one has to be Lawful Good, and one must remain Lawful Good in order to keep spells, powers and abilities. However, with the blackguard, if the Paladin becomes a Blackguard, he gains more powers than, for example, a fighter who becomes a blackguard, as "those who have tasted the light of goodness and justice and turned away make the foulest villains" as the DM's Guide says. What it doesn't cover is this, if a Paladin loses their powers if they commit acts of evil, and can gain Blackguard powers if they fall from grace, why can't Blackguard players lose their powers if they commit acts of good, or return to the light and become a shining example of justice?
Voldenuit 11-22-04, 04:33 AM	Nothing says Blackguards can't "return to grace". Note that a class requirement for the PrC is "Alignment: Any Evil". Although there is some controversy on the issue, most people rule that losing the prerequisites to a PrC means you can no longer access the class abilities of said class. Blackguards who commit isolated Good acts are unlikely to lose any abilities, since most evil deities care more about their own agenda than for any "ideal" of Evil (unlike the Good deities, who at worst try to avoid the appearance of evil). However, a blackguard whose actions thwart his deities goals (even unintentionally) will probably get a visit from a very nasty fiend with an even nastier sword...
Elurindel 11-22-04, 04:38 AM	You have a good point there, but I just don't see why blackguards get extra powers for being ex-paladins, and not vice-versa.
gbnogkfs 11-22-04, 04:55 AM	You can answer in more than one way... Paladin is a Base Class, it is in the PHB, it is normal to be picked at 1st level, and the route Pal -> BG is much more likely than the other way around; the DMG (where the BG is described, and is read after the PHB) so only spoke about a Paladin becoming Blackguard. In my opinion, the authors didn't really think about a BG becoming Pal. then, there could be a "balancing" factor: it is generally considered "more munchkin" to use a caotic and/or evil character with respect to a legal/good, because people generally assume they are "less" tied by a moral code, and more free to act as they choose; so they reward a BG who has spent levels constricted in the Paladin role, while the other way around is different. But there are really no definitive answers: if you feel to give BG something for becoming Pals, that should be fine.
Elurindel 11-22-04, 05:00 AM	I admit that becoming a paladin from a blackguard is unlikely, given the amount of feats one has to learn first. The main question is, do you think the blackguard should retain his dark powers if he becomes a paladin?
steenan 11-22-04, 05:29 AM	Of course he shouldn't! Who would give him those powers? The evil deity he turned against or the good deity he follows now, who surely doesn't grant any "dark powers" to anyone? It's also quite obvious to me that there should be no boni for paladins for being ex-blackguards. Being good is never an easy way to gain power. It's usual for Evil to lure the good ones with power - but Good doesn't lure anyone...
Elurindel 11-22-04, 05:33 AM	I completely understand the point you're getting at, it wouldn't be feasible in a 3.5 version, but for some reason it's ok in NWN. Guess they didn't think it through. Although you never know, a Good deity may see the spark of good inside somebody, or see that they do not enjoy being a servant of a corrupt king or suchlike, and might be given the chance to repent and become the opposite of that which they hate.
[GSV] Kirstar 11-22-04, 05:55 AM	in our games we have removed paladin as a base class, and use it as a prestige class similar to blackguard. the reason for this being that once you reach 5th level paladin, there is no reason to continue as all you really get is more cure diseases and a few more points lay on hands. in our games you would loose the powers of blackguard by going against the evil dieties aims.