Post/Author/DateTime	Post
spartan118 09-22-04, 02:12 PM	hey i wanted to throw this out to all of you and see what you think. This is a class i have recently created based of the book "Blade Dancer" by S.L.Viehl. I just read it yesterday and i am allready so excited by the idea of it that i had to sit down and create a class based of the book. now before you read this know that i wrote it up with none of the books in front of me( im at work :) ) and im not that proficient with version 3.5 yet. But with that in mind please give me some input would like to hear what you all think. BLADE DANCER Uses the BAB of the fighter receives a bonus feat every level +1 to dex every 3rd lvl +1 to str every 4th lvl +1 to con every 5th lvl at first lvl: 1: Feat-exotic weapon prof "Tan" 2: Feat-Blade Dance at second lvl: Feat-Two Weapon Fighting at 5th lvl: Feat-Improved Blade Dance at 10th lvl: Feat-Supirior Blade Dance at 15th lvl: Feat-Greater Blade Dance Feat discriptions: Blade Dance- The blade dancer begins to develop a bond with his Tan and as such the Tan responds as though it were more a part of the blade dancer than a weapon in his hands. +2 to BAB( all blade dancers can have a higher than 20 base attack, this means that they may allso have more than 4 attacks per round at higher levels) +2 to AC( this acts like a dex increase to AC because the dancer is allways moving and as such is harder to hit) +2 to Reflex save( same reason as for the AC boost) Gains all the benifits of Evasion( the dancer is allways moving and as such has to be continually aware of his surroundings) All Blade Dance Feats stack Improved Blade Dance- The blade dancer continues to develop the bond with his weapon Prereq- Blade Dance +2 to BAB +2 to AC +2 to Reflex saves Gains all the benifits of Improved Evasion( Dancer has become more intune with the world around him and can sence the presence of people around him and react acordingly) All Blade Dance Feats stack Superior Blade Dance- The bond of the blade dancer with his weapon has developed to the point where the weapon seems to respond almost before the dancer thinks about the motion. Prereq- Improved Blade Dance +2 to BAB +2 to AC +2 to Reflex Saves Gains Immunity To Sneak Attack( Is this coverd in improved evasion? if so any ideas for replacement?) All Blade Dance Feats stack Greater Blade Dance- At this point the Dancer wields the Tan as if it were an extension of his will and a blade dancer at this rank is trully a site to behold as they can move and attack at such a speed as to seem to be a blur. Prereq- Superior Blade Dance +2 to BAB +2 to AC +2 to Reflex Saves Gains Immunity To the secondary damage of Critical hit and anything that critical hit immunity give you immunity to.(If sneak attack is covered under improved evasion then this would get bumped to superior blade dance and if so any ideas for a replacement?) All blade dance feats stack Tan Battle Forms- This represents the over 100 diferent battle forms that are known for the Tan. Each battle form is a different move or manuver that can be executed. Prereq- Blade Dance Choice of 1: +1 to BAB +1 to AC +1 Reflex Saves This feat may be taken repeatedly and the effects stack with Blade Dance Feats.
spartan118 09-22-04, 02:42 PM	Here is Info on the Blade Dancers Weapon the "Tan" also some info i forgot to add to the above post. First Blade dancers cannot wear any armor at all( magical items taht have force effects can be used but no physical armor of any kind may be use as they restrict the wearers movement. Second the only weapon the blade dancer can use is the "Tan". I will explain the Tan next. Third All Blade Dancers are seen as evil( though they are not necesrily evil, it depends on their allignment) and as such are feared and hated( mostly feared. the blade dancer is most often seen as an assasin as such people are warry and greatly fear the dancer for good reason, Blade Dancers are trained killers who even if they serve the side of good can kill with but a thought. Info on the "Tan"- The Tan is an Ecto-Morphic Blade that can assume many shapes,( Though the Blade Dancer only uses sword and dagger forms) the shapes and what they count as follow: 1: "Raen-Tan" - Great Sword 2: "Thian-Tan" - Katana 3: "Ranji-Tan" - Longsword 4: "Jyan-Tan" - Shortsword 5: "Shou-Tan" - Knife 6: "Elok-Tan" - Razor Dagger 7: "Osu-Tan" - Dual Razor Daggers( this is the most deadly of the forms the Tan becomes. think of a walking talking blender and you have some idea how dangerous they are with Osu-Tan. Shimmer Silk- This is a verry strange type of spider silk that was discovered many years ago. it has the natural properties of the mage spell blur. The effect of wearing this is that people cant see the wearers body shape or even tell if or when the wearer is moving( game mechanic is +2 to AC( hard to hit) +2 to hit(hard to react if you cant see them move to attack untill to late). shimmer silk is naturally black and shiney. thats it what do you all think?
Kelstrel 09-22-04, 03:40 PM	soul knife + bladesinger? The advantages are there... whats the drawback? no armor... you have a + to dex and a + to AC... no limits on race... the hated thing works for about 1 game... then you get characters who are drowwriffic... and that goes away....
spartan118 09-22-04, 04:07 PM	thats what i need help on what do you all think would be good cons for it?
Ph33r_the_Wheelchair 09-22-04, 04:30 PM	I can say without doubt or hyperbole that this class is super-super-broken. Hell, you already have a class that is much more powerful than the fighter just because it has a bonus feat at every level instead of every other level, and then you go on to give them four uber-powerful feats (Blade Dance). Come on man, this is so broken it hurts (and the "no armor" thing doesn't begin to balance it out). For example, a 15th level fighter will have a BAB of +15 and will have gotten 7 bonus feats, whereas a 15th level blade dancer will have a BAB of +23, 9 bonus feats (not counting the mandatory ones), +5 to DEX, +3 to STR, +3 to CON, +8 to Reflex saves, AND the ability to have taken the also-broken Tan Battle Forms feat many a time. But, oh, they can't wear armor? Yeah, that's a darn shame considering that the Blade Dance feats give him a +8 to AC! Seriously, to fix this class you would have to completely re-work it. Taking away all the bonus feats would be a good start, but it would be better to change the Blade Dance abilities into some other thing that isn't as uber.
spartan118 09-22-04, 05:09 PM	Hey if i wanted non construcktive critisism, i would have craped in my hat. if you want to be helpful try sugesting some ideas on how to fix it. as i said i put it together without any books in front of me so give me a break.
Ph33r_the_Wheelchair 09-22-04, 06:16 PM	Okay, fine. I'll try to be more helpful, but understand that 1. The class as written is, as previously stated, really, really broken 2. I don't really know what you're going for, as I've never read "Blade Dancer" So, I'll do my best. Okay, first we want a good BAB. That's fine. Obviously the first and most important thing is the ability to manifest and wield the "Tan". So, we have that ability at 1st level, maybe just call it "Tan". A couple of questions that need answering are: -What kind of action is it to manifest the Tan? and -If it's longer than a free action, does it get faster? If so, when and how much? -What happens if the Tan is dropped? Does it disappear? -Can the Tan be thrown? If so, right away, or is that an ability gained at higher levels? (I would say no, since the Blade Dancer seems to focus on melee combat) and -Does the Tan's ability to be thrown depend on it's form? which leads me to the last question -You list a number of forms the Tan can take. Can the Blade Dancer change its form at will? Does it take time? What level does he gain this ability? Can all forms be achieved at the same level, or do some forms require a higher level? If it takes time and effort to change its form (or you cannot at 1st level) what is the default form? What is a razor dagger? Next we'll deal with AC. Now, in the current form, the Blade Dancer gets the Blade Dance feats. I would completely remove these. Instead, consider having the Tan gain a gradual enhancement bonus (like the Soul Knife) as the Blade Dancer increases in level. As for AC, the BD can't wear armor, much like the monk, so I think he should get an AC bonus similar to the monk's, but perhaps based on an ability other than Wisdom (but that's entirely up to you). For the Reflex bonus, instead just make Reflex one of the BD's "good" saves. In my opinion, having a good Fortitude and Reflex save would be good. For the other abilities granted by the Blade Dance feats, just offer these abilities at appropriate levels as the BD levels up. I would say: -Evasion at level 2 -Uncanny dodge at level 3 -Improved uncanny dodge at level 7-10 (somewhere in there) -Improved evasion at level 10-15 -DO NOT offer immunity to critical hits. There doesn't seem to be any reason for it (the flavor for this ability is that either one has no vitals to hit (undead or construct), or that they are so well protected (via the greater fortification armor ability) that they cannot be hit) A few final points: -The bonuses to Strength, Dexterity and Constitution should be removed, as should the bonus feats -Offering Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat at 2nd level is fine. As for the other bonus feats, instead of free feats maybe give Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, and Weapon Focus (Tan) as the BD goes up in level -You still have to pick class skills. I would recommend: not too many, and only 2+INT modifier per level -As for hit dice, I would say a d8 -To be clear: offering feats or abilities that improve Base Attack Bonus (especially by two at a time, and by 8 overall) is a VERY bad idea -If you haven't seen it before, try to look over the Soul Knife class in the XPH There we go. Whew! Hope this helps!
spartan118 09-22-04, 08:06 PM	hey sorry about the rude coment. thanks for the ideas am leaving work now so when i get a chance to look at what i have i'll drop answers to the questions you asked, and thanks just from what i read it gives me a lot of help already. so stay tunned.
spartan118 09-22-04, 10:45 PM	Obviously the first and most important thing is the ability to manifest and wield the "Tan". So, we have that ability at 1st level, maybe just call it "Tan". I have decided to call it "Manifest Tan"- good idea by the way A couple of questions that need answering are: -What kind of action is it to manifest the Tan? and -If it's longer than a free action, does it get faster? If so, when and how much? I want it to be a free action -What happens if the Tan is dropped? Does it disappear? yes as it is made of ectoplasm that is formed into the shape of one of seven form taught to the BD if he releases it it would fade away untill he manifested it again -Can the Tan be thrown? If so, right away, or is that an ability gained at higher levels? (I would say no, since the Blade Dancer seems to focus on melee combat) and -Does the Tan's ability to be thrown depend on it's form? No you cant throught the Tan thats why they carry other dagger like weapons on them. the way it works is they can only use the Tan and any other dagger like weapons they want thas it. No other weapons and no armor. which leads me to the last question -You list a number of forms the Tan can take. Can the Blade Dancer change its form at will? Yes Does it take time?No also a free action What level does he gain this ability?it is part of the manifest Tan ability Can all forms be achieved at the same level, or do some forms require a higher level?all at first lvl. free action and no effort What is a razor dagger?1D6+2/ 18-20*3 crit/ type P&S How about: 1: +1 AC per lvl( with no addition from a stat modifier) 2: Same save as the monk 3: Want to keep the blade dance feats but instead make the character have to spend earned feats to get them. Not make it automatic. will list ideas for feats at certain levels lower. A few final points: -The bonuses to Strength, Dexterity and Constitution should be removed, as should the bonus feats I see that now it was a bit to powerfull with the stat increases and everything else too -You still have to pick class skills. I would recommend: not too many, and only 2+INT modifier per level Sounds good still have to look at skill and pick what seem to fit but that sounds good -As for hit dice, I would say a d8 Not bad and it balences them a little more -If you haven't seen it before, try to look over the Soul Knife class in the XPH Question what book is that and what are the stats of improved uncanny dodge This is the new feat by level chart i have come up with based off of your ideas: 1: Manifest Tan, Two weapon Fighting 2: Evasion, Quike Draw(for non Tan daggers) 3: Uncanney Dodge 4: Weapon Focus Tan 5: Modify Tan( allows BD to spend exp to enchant his Tan/same costs as in DM's guide 6: Improved Two Weapon Fighting 7: Expertise 8: Improved Initiative 9: Improved Disarm 10: Improved Evasion 11: Bonus Feat( fighter or blade dance 1) 12: Greater Two Weapon Fighting 13: Combat Reflexes 14: Lightning Reflexes 15: Improved Uncanny Dodge 16: Improved Trip 17: Bonus Feat( fighters or blade dance 2) 18: Improved Critical Tan 19: Bonus Feat( fighters or blade dance 3) 20: Weapon Specialization Tan( as per the fighter feat) after that the BD is free to take the blade dance 4 feat with his character lvl feats on or after lvl 20. whatdo you think of the changes more balenced or did i screw it up again?
spartan118 09-23-04, 12:12 PM	These two Truths of The Blade Dancer show in all they do! 1: Speed number of attacks initiative AC Reflex evasion skills dodge skills 2: Accuracy BAB CRIT( threat and damage ) im thinking of changing the bonuses given by the blade dance feats to: +2 to BAB( this way they can have up to 6 attacks max at 28 BAB) +1 Init( they increase in reaction speed as they develop) +1 AC( they move quicker and quicker and become harder to hit) +1 Reflex save( movement means better chance to get away from effects) +1 damage( based from better aim not harder hits) what do you think? as they are now i think it is more ballenced but would like to hear your opinions.
Ph33r_the_Wheelchair 09-23-04, 07:15 PM	It's getting better, but you're still giving the class too much. Two big things are: 1. The Blade Dance feats are still too powerful 2. They have way too many bonus feats I need to make absolutely clear my feelings on this: giving bonuses to base attack bonuses is broken. Don't do it! They're already getting all the Two-Weapon Fighting feats for free, which means that by 20th level a Blade Dancer is making 7 attacks a round. That's plenty. Getting +1 AC at every level is also too much. Make it every other level, and that would be okay. Finally, the razor dagger is far too powerful. It is clearly better than every other weapon, so change it to 1d4 / crit 18-20/x2 S/P. As for feats and such, as I said you gave them too much. This is what I think the Blade Dancer class should look like. Base Fort Ref Will Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save Special -------------------------------------------------------------- 1 +1 +2 +2 +0 Manifest Tan, Two-Weapon Fighting 2 +2 +3 +3 +0 Evasion 3 +3 +3 +3 +1 Uncanny Dodge, Tan Enhancement +1 4 +4 +4 +4 +1 5 +5 +4 +4 +1 Blade Dance I, Tan Enhancement +2 6 +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 7 +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Tan Enhancement +3 8 +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Improved Uncanny Dodge 9 +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Tan Enhancement +4 10 +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 Blade Dance II 11 +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 Improved Evasion, Tan Enhancement +5 12 +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 Bonus Feat 13 +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 Tan Enhancement +6 14 +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +4 15 +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +5 Blade Dance III, Bonus Feat, Tan Enhancement +7 16 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +5 17 +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Tan Enhancement +8 18 +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Bonus Feat 19 +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Tan Enhancement +9 20 +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 Blade Dance IV Manifest Tan A Blade Dancer battles with an ectoplasmic blade formed of his own will known as the Tan. The Blade Dancer can form the Tan on his turn as a free action, and it immediately disappears if it ever leaves his grasp. The Blade Dancer can choose one of six forms for the Tan, which he can alter any time he manifests the Tan. 1: short sword 2: long sword 3: bastard sword 4: dagger 5: razor dagger 6: dual razor daggers Each of the forms is identical to an actual weapon of that type, except visually. Starting at 3rd level and at every other level thereafter the Tan gains an enhancement bonus. The Blade Master can divide this bonus up between an actual bonus and weapon special ability as he sees fit, but the Tan must have an enhancement bonus of at least +1 and no higher than +5. He may choose any melee weapon special ability on Table 7-14 of the DM's Guide other than: Ki focus Spell storing Throwing Disruption Dancing Blade Dance A Blade Dancer uses a unique and graceful combat form that grants him certain bonuses in combat when using his Tan. These bonuses are: +1 to initiative +2 dodge bonus to AC when wielding the Tan The bonuses are gained at each Blade Dance and are cumulative. The bonus to initiative stacks with the bonus granted by the Improved Initiative feat and similar abilities. In addition, at Blade Dance II and IV, the penalty for fighting with two weapons is reduced by 1. Bonus Feats The Blade Dancer gains a bonus feat at levels 12, 15, and 18. These feats must be chosen from the list of fighter bonus feats, and the Blade Dancer must meet all the requirements for the feats he takes. Boom. Done. A fine class if I say so myself. Few points: -I know the AC for this class is somewhat low, but I figure that that's kind of the point of the class: they kick ass on offense but are kinda weak on defense. If you must know, a 20th level Blade Dancer and a 20th level Monk with an 18 Wisdom would have the same AC bonus, which I think is pretty good. -You'll notice that I removed many of the bonus feats. But, come on, you were giving them like every useful feat for free. They get the three Two-Weapon Fighting feats plus three more, which should be enough, considering they also get both evasions and uncanny dodges. -Once again, I altered the Blade Dance abilities. The reasons for this are that they shouldn't be feats, since no one but a Blade Dancer should get them. And again, giving a bonus to BAB is a bad idea. I considered giving them the Weapon Focus feats or a +1 to attack with Blade Dance, but I figured they already have a full BAB and lots of bonus feats, so they could use their own feats to get those. -The Soul Knife is a psionic class in the Expanded Psionics Handbook (XPH) that is very similar to this class, although the Soul Knife is more psionic and less martial.
ThanisKartaleon 09-23-04, 08:21 PM	:mymy: wow... that's pretty broken. That's what I call "Alucard Syndrome" (if you've ever played Castlevania: Symphony of the Night you *should* know what I'm talking about.). I have to admit though... when I was first getting into D&D back at the middle of 2nd Ed AD&D, I made myself a class that was probably just as broken, allowing a specific race to have access to both wizard and priest spells, and cast them at increased level. Though I did mine by the book (The Player's Option books), I severely min-maxed it. Giving them a feat every level (even if they can't pick it) is definitely not recommended. It sounds very much like the Soul Blade indeed (XPH stands for Expanded Psionics Handbook, which you should take a good look at for comparison) I haven't read Blade Dancer either, but I think I can help even so. I know you want this class to be awesome, but the trick for base classes is this: You should be equally drawn to playing a 1st lvl fighter as you do a 1st lvl whatever. If you have no reason to play any other class, then you'll just have a world of blade dancers jumping around killing each other. Society would never advance, there would be no new magic, no great cities built, etc. Especially since you're posting this to the eberron forums... magic is very important. You might find a way to do away with the monk(though I'm biased against monks), but wizards, artificers, & magewrights all play a very important role. Oh, and by the way: You can never have more than 4 attacks per round from your Base Attack Bonus, even if it does exceed +20. If you have the DMG check p207 Uncanny Dodge is a barbarian/rogue ability which allows them to not be caught flat-footed. Improved Uncanny Dodge is a makes it so they cannot be flanked. Evasion is a Rogue ability which allows them to take no damage on a successful saving throw (when one is allowed), representing their ability to throw themselves out of the path of danger. Improved Evasion does one up on that by allowing them to take only 1/2 damage even if they fail a save. Stripping this of all the bonus feats down the the class abilities, you have: 1. Manifest Tan 2. Evasion 3. Uncanny Dodge 4. 5. Blade Dance 1 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. Improved Evasion 11. Blade Dance 2 12. 13. 14. 15. Improved Uncanny Dodge 16. 17. 18. Blade Dance 3 19. Modify Tan 20. Epic. Blade Dance 4 Well, obviously this class needs a bit of work. If you took away it's class abilities it'd be like having a fighter with almost twice the feats. Here's another tip: If you take a look at the base classes in the PHB, you'll see that the majority of them are front-loaded, meaning that the early levels gives them the majority of their abilities, while the later levels focus on refining those abilities. This sounds like melee dex class to me. So here's my go (this is probably still a little broken, but I'll let you decide that): HD: keep with d8. Rangers also have d8, and they are known for being swift, accurate fighters. Skills: Balance, Concentration, Craft, Jump, Move Silently, Profession, Tumble. This class needs to be light on its feet and able to concentrate to manifest the tan. Every class gets craft, and almost every class gets profession. If being freaky ectoplasmic blade warriors is all they do, then they shouldn't get profession. (Fighters don't) Skill points per level: 4 + Int modifier. Modify this if it seems underpowered or overpowered. Weapon & Armor Proficiency: Dagger, Short Sword, Longsword, Rapier, Scimitar, Falchion, Greatsword, Bastard Sword, Razor Dagger, Two-bladed sword. Basically all the slicey-stabby stuff. Note that these are all separate weapons, each requiring their own proficiency. Making one weapon that's able to become all these weapons does not eliminate the need for separate proficiencies. No armor or shields. Gotcha. Though this doesn't prevent them from picking up armor proficiency later on, but I'll get to that. I don't like the idea of not letting them use other weapons, though. The 3.0 Druid had that, and I always hated it. Why can't a druid use a bow? But that's all better now in 3.5. Base Attack Bonus: Good (+1/lvl) Fort: Good Ref: Good Will: Poor Up-front warriors rarely need a good will save. If they're good enough, the dastardly warlock won't even get a spell off. Lvl 1: Manifest Tan, Deflection Bonus, Shou-Tan, Blade Dance 1/day, Weapon Finesse Lvl 2: Jyan-Tan, Evasion, Two-Weapon Fighting Lvl 3: Uncanny Dodge Lvl 4: Two-weapon Defense, Blade Dance 2/day Lvl 5: Ranji-Tan Lvl 6: Lvl 7: Lvl 8: Raen-Tan, Blade Dance 3/day Lvl 9: Improved Uncanny Dodge Lvl 10: Lvl 11: Thian-Tan, Improved Blade Dance, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Lvl 12: Blade Dance 4/day Lvl 13: Lvl 14: Elok-Tan, Improved Evasion Lvl 15: Lvl 16: Blade Dance 5/day Lvl 17: Osu-Tan, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Endless Dance Lvl 18: Lvl 19: Lvl 20: Masterful Blade Dance, Blade Dance 6/day Manifest Tan (Su): Blade Dancers receive a Tan for free at first level. Though nonmagical, a Tan serves as a focus for the Blade Dancer's psychic energy. As a free action, a Blade Dancer can cause their Tan to manifest an ectoplasmic blade. Once per round, they may cause a manifested tan to switch to any other tan blade they know, also a free action. A Blade Dancer cannot use this ability while wearing anything heavier than loose clothing. Attempting to don armor while the blade is manifested causes the blade to stop manifesting. Additionally, the tan will stop manifesting if it leaves the blade dancer's grasp and while he is unconscious. Additional Tans cost 15gp Deflection Bonus (Su): Blade Dancers focus on striking without being struck back. As such, at 1st level they wield their psychic energy in a mildly defensive manner as well, gaining a deflection bonus to AC equal to their charisma bonus. Shou-Tan (Su): At 1st level, a Blade Dancer can manifest the Shou-Tan, a blade that has all the characteristics of a dagger. Blade Dance (Ex): A Blade Dancer can become a whirling dervish of death a certain number of times per day while manifesting a tan. In a blade dance, a blade dancer focuses his mind and body, gaining speed and power, but this focus costs him in accuracy. He temporarily gains +4 to Strength and a +2 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. All manifestations of his tan are treated as light weapons for the purpose of the weapon finesse feat (but he still must wield two-handed weapons in two hands, and takes all the normal penalties for their correct size when fighting with two weapons). While in a blade dance, the dancer can make one extra attack per round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack and all others made in the round take a -2 penalty to hit. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it affects any attacks of opportunity the dancer may make before his next action. Additionally, while in a blade dance, the blade dancer may cause his tan blade to manifest a magical melee weapon ability worth +1 per 4 class levels. He may not choose the merciful, spell storing, throwing, disruption, or dancing abilities. He may not choose holy if he is not good aligned, nor may he choose unholy if he is not evil aligned. While dancing, a blade dancer cannot use any skills or abilities without combat relevance, such as craft or diplomacy, nor can he cast spells or activate magical items (manifesting a tan does not count for this). He can use any feat except Combat Expertise, Item Creation feats, or Metamagic Feats. A Blade Dance lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character's constitution modifier. A blade dancer may prematurely end a dance. At the end of a dance, the blade dancer loses the dance modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can't charge or run) for the duration of the encounter (unless he is 17th level or higher, in which case this no longer applies). A Blade Dancer can perform a Blade Dance only once per encounter. At 1st level he can use his dance ability once per day. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, he can use it one additional time per day (to a maximum of six times per day at 20th level). Entering a blade dance takes not time itself, but a blade dancer can do it only during his own action. Weapon Finesse (Ex): At 1st level, a blade dancer is treated as having the Weapon Finesse feat. The benefits of this ability only apply when he wears light or no armor. Jyan-Tan (Su): At 2nd level, the blade dancer gains the ability to manifest a Jyan-tan, which has all the characteristics of a short sword. Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a blade dancer can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals 1/2 effect on a successful save, he instead takes no effect. Evasion can be used only if the blade dancer is wearing light armor or less. A helpless blade dancer does not gain the benefits of evasion. Two-Weapon Fighting (Ex): At 2nd level, a blade dancer is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. The benefits of this ability only apply when the blade dancer wears light or no armor. Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a blade dancer can react to danger befor his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. If a blade dancer already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead. Two-Weapon Defense (Ex): At 4th level, a blade dancer is treated as having the Two-Weapon Defense feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. The benefits of this ability only apply when the blade dancer wears light or no armor. Ranji-Tan (Su): At 5th level, the blade dancer gains the ability to manifest the ranji-tan. This blade possesses all the characteristics of the longsword. Raen-Tan (Su): At 8th level, the blade dancer gains the ability to manifest the raen-tan. This blade possesses all the characteristics of a greatsword. Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Beginning at 9th level, the blade dancer can no longer be flanked; he can react to opponents on either side of him as easily as he can react to a single attacker. This defense denies an opponent the ability to sneak attack the blade dancer, unless the attacker has at least four more levels in a class that grants sneak attack than the blade dancer has levels in classes which grant uncanny dodge abilities. Thian-tan (Su): At 11th level, the blade dancer gains the ability to manifest the thian-tan, a blade which possesses all the characteristics of a bastard sword. Improved Blade Dance (Ex): At 11th level, the blade dancer's bonus to Strength improves to +6, and his bonuses to AC and Reflex saves increase to +3. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (Ex): At 11th level, the blade dancer is treated as having the improved two-weapon fighting feat, even if he lacks the prerequisites for it. This benefit only applies when he is wearing light or no armor. Elok-Tan (Su): At 14th level, the blade dancer gains the ability to manifest the elok-tan, a blade with the following characteristics: Light Melee Weapon Dmg 1d4(S) 1d6(M) 18-20/x2 Weight 1 lb. Slashing Improved Evasion (Ex): At 14th level, the blade dancer gains improved evasion. This works like evasion, except that the blade dancer takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless blade dancer does not gain the benefit of improved evasion. Osu-Tan (Su): At 17th level, a blade dancer gains the ability to manifest the final tan form, the osu-tan. The osu-tan has the following characteristics: Two-Handed Melee Weapon Dmg 1d4/1d4(S) 1d6/1d6(M) 18-20/x2 Weight 3 lbs. Slashing Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (Ex): At 17th level, the blade dancer is treated as having the greater two-weapon fighting feat, even if he lacks the prerequisites for it. This ability only functions if the blade dancer is wearing light or no armor. Endless Dance (Ex): At 17th level, the blade dancer no longer becomes fatigued at the end of a blade dance. Masterful Blade Dance (Ex): At 20th level, a blade dancer's Strength bonus while blade dancing is increased to +8, and the dodge bonus on Armor Class and Reflex saves increases to +4 -------------------------- Well, there ya go. This is a lot more balanced than what you had. You should still tweak it a little, as I did not playtest this at all. When you take a look at it, think to yourself: Would I rather play this, a Fighter, a Wizard, or a Rogue? If find yourself undecided for the most part, then the class is probably balanced. If you would rather play a fighter, then obviously the class needs work. Have fun!
q'afuu 09-23-04, 08:42 PM	You do realize that 'manifest Tan' gives the BD an in practice non-sunderable and non-disarmable weapon that can stay perfectly concealed as long as the BD wants and can't ever be taken away, which does more base damage than a soulknife and which gets a broader range of possible enhancements than a soulknife? You'll need at the very least to give it an ability type (I suggest supernatural, that way it can at least be suppressed in some way), but if you ask me it's still too powerful. +1 by level 3? That's a weapon everyone else pays 2300+ gp for, out of the 2700 a 3rd level character should normally have. Plus Evasion. Plus Improved Evasion. Plus Uncanny Dodge. Plus two good saves (at least Will isn't one of them). The TWF feat tree. Three bonus feats. Full BAB. I don't care how few skill points the BD gets and how crappy a skill list, this is definitely a lot stronger than the Soulknife (not exactly a weak class to begin with). Question: what are the class proficiencies? As an aside, there's really no reason for this to be on the Eberron boards. Please post stuff that isn't Eberron-specific on the regular D&D boards.
ThanisKartaleon 09-23-04, 08:52 PM	well, teach ME to wait 12 hours between clicking reply and clicking post! Heh. Ph33r has many good points though. giving bonuses to base attack bonuses is broken. Don't do it! This particular point cannot be emphasized enough. NEVER give bonuses to base attack. That's walking down a dangerous road, my friend. Finally, the razor dagger is far too powerful. It is clearly better than every other weapon, so change it to 1d4 / crit 18-20/x2 S/P Since in my writeup I have the blade dancer wait a while before gaining access to it, I modified only the critical (to x2... only weapons that can be wielded with excessive inertia and force, such as a spear or axe, should have the x3 attribute, and only weapons like picks and scythes get x4) but if you really want the blade dancer to have earlier access to this weapon, I'd highly suggest ph33r's sample. However, He may choose any melee weapon special ability on Table 7-14 of the DM's Guide other than: Ki focus I don't agree with this one (though the others are good). I just see no reason why they couldn't manifest the ki focus ability on their blade; they'd have to have a few monk levels to be able to use it, anyway. Finally, I have a question for you, Spartan. You've posted this to the Eberron forum... Where does this class fit into eberron? It sounds like it would fit best in mysterious Sarlona, though there could be some still practicing the art in the Lhazaar Principalities. Or is this this class a new discovery in Karrnath? Oh, and by the way, Shimmer Silk would have a price of 16,000gp and would occupy the robe slot most likely, as you have it written. So, no shimmer silk until 7th level at minimum. Discuss?
ThanisKartaleon 09-23-04, 09:01 PM	You do realize that 'manifest Tan' gives the BD an in practice non-sunderable and non-disarmable weapon that can stay perfectly concealed as long as the BD wants and can't ever be taken away, which does more base damage than a soulknife and which gets a broader range of possible enhancements than a soulknife? You'll need at the very least to give it an ability type (I suggest supernatural, that way it can at least be suppressed in some way), but if you ask me it's still too powerful. a good point. I'd say it could definitely be disarmable though. As for concealable... It would have the same base dimensions as a dagger, so a +2 circumstance bonus to Sleight of Hand would not be out of the question. Sundering? Definitely sunder-able, though as written the BD would just be able to remanifest again as a free action on his turn. I'd say this would break the Blade Dancer's concentration, that he'd have to pass a DC 15-20 Concentration check in order to remanifest the next round. I hope I addressed questions of power level in my original post. As an aside, there's really no reason for this to be on the Eberron boards. Please post stuff that isn't Eberron-specific on the regular D&D boards. Well, let's see what the guy says first... he may have some reason for posting to a campaign specific board. :confused: Though I currently know not.
Ph33r_the_Wheelchair 09-23-04, 09:55 PM	Yeah, I'm also wondering what this is doing on the Eberron boards (besides the fact that we here are great :D ). I would agree that 3rd might be too early for a +1 weapon... so change it to 4th and move all the "Tan enhancements" up one level. I've also been wondering about the different forms of the Tan. Since we're giving the class free access to the Two-Weapon Fighting tree, there doesn't seem to be any reason to manifest anything but 2 razor daggers, so I would consider removing all other forms. Maybe leave in long sword if they do want to manifest only one for some reason. Giving them Weapon Finesse is a good idea, as is Two-Weapon Defense. So, give Weapon Finesse at 1st, and move Two-Weapon Fighting to 2nd. Remove the bonus feats, and give Two-Weapon Defense at 5th level. I like Thanis's version of Blade Dance much better than my own. My only recommendations would be: -instead of giving +2 to AC and Reflex, give +4 to Dex. This fits well, and is more comparable to Rage -I like my progression of Tan Enhancements better than just getting them during a Dance For the AC, I think adding Charisma is good, but also give a progression similar to the monk's By the way, I believe that most people agree that the Soul Knife IS slightly underpowered. And, I'm tired, so that's all for now.
UltimaGabe 09-23-04, 10:10 PM	Raen-Tan (Su): At 8th level, the blade dancer gains the ability to manifest the raen-tan. This blade possesses all the characteristics of a greatsword. Thian-tan (Su): At 11th level, the blade dancer gains the ability to manifest the thian-tan, a blade which possesses all the characteristics of a bastard sword. You do realize, of course, that a Greatsword is more powerful than a Bastard sword, correct?
ThanisKartaleon 09-23-04, 10:16 PM	You do realize, of course, that a Greatsword is more powerful than a Bastard sword, correct? Except that a bastard sword may be wielded one-handed if you have proficiency in it.
scaryfroman 09-23-04, 11:40 PM	keep in mind that even if you do give bonuses to BAB, you still can not get more than 4 attacks from a high BAB. it says so early in the DMG.
UltimaGabe 09-23-04, 11:50 PM	Except that a bastard sword may be wielded one-handed if you have proficiency in it. Yes, but this class doesn't seem to give the Exotic Weapon Proficiency for it to be wielded one-handed. Even if it did, that should still come before the Greatsword ability (as it's a +1 to damage over the longsword, on average, whereas the Greatsword is +3 to damage on average, with the drawback of needing to be wielded two-handed, which has its own benefits). I just don't get why he put those two in that order.
ThanisKartaleon 09-24-04, 02:46 AM	Yes, but this class doesn't seem to give the Exotic Weapon Proficiency for it to be wielded one-handed. Even if it did, that should still come before the Greatsword ability (as it's a +1 to damage over the longsword, on average, whereas the Greatsword is +3 to damage on average, with the drawback of needing to be wielded two-handed, which has its own benefits). I just don't get why he put those two in that order. Actually it does give the exotic proficiency. With that, and with the two-bladed sword. Though the bastard sword is a unique case, so I can see the confusion. I mean exotic weapon proficiency (bastard sword), allowing use of it in one hand (and thus one in each hand if they have two of them), though they can of course wield it in two hands. Sure, the greatsword does more damage when stacked against *one* bastard sword, but the bastard sword wins in versatility.
q'afuu 09-24-04, 07:29 AM	a good point. I'd say it could definitely be disarmable though. As for concealable... It would have the same base dimensions as a dagger, so a +2 circumstance bonus to Sleight of Hand would not be out of the question. Sundering? Definitely sunder-able, though as written the BD would just be able to remanifest again as a free action on his turn. Since it's an at will ability, always on, the mechanic you apply to overcome sundering (simply manifesting it again) applies to all of the above. Who cares if the Tan gets disarmed - just manifest it again. Need it concealed - you don't manifest it until you need it, so how much more concealed can you get? To compare, the Soulknife can only manifest his soulknife as a free action from level 5 on (it's a move action at first), and even then that's limited to once per round.
spartan118 09-24-04, 12:56 PM	Hey to answer the question of why it is on this board i am planing to DM an Eberon Campain, just taht as of yet i have not had the time to buy the book. I plan on geting it on sunday. i am working on writeups for a island kingdom and a training acadamy for the BD for the eberon world stay tuned and i will post as i get it done. to clear up some things. I like the way you guys resetup how the tan gains forms as it goes up in level. I have only one change to make to what you all have done. base off the original concaept the weapon starts large and as the BD learns how to master it he is able to make use of continualy smaller forms. Untill reaching the Razor dagger. I had the razor dagger at 1d6+2 because it is a unique weapon only for the BD. They can not use any weapons but the Tan and other dager weapons, period, that is one of the cons of the group( though they are verry skilled with the tan so it sorta balences. though i do agre that the *3 was a bit much and could be changed for ballence. As for the BAB increase, the effect i was trying to achieve was that the BD would be able to attack faster than the fighter.( as i understand it the BAB is a game mechanic that symbolizes two things: 1: How acuratly the charater can strike opponents 2: How fast the character can attack/nuber of attacks per rnd it gets. now for the arguments i have heard so far i will address my thoughts on the mater of not giving bonuses to BAB. The fact that the DMG says that no mater if the BAB goes over 20, 4 attacks per rnd is the max. I dont think this is corect as in the epic books after 20 it becomes additional attack bonus( i believe if wrong sorry) and that AAB doesnt count for # of attacks. but my writeups were specifically writen to say that it added to the BAB and that that allowed the BD to have a BAB of more then 20 and also more attacks per rnd then 4. As for the increase being to powerfull think on this: the fighter can use any weapon and wear any armor and use shields, the fighter gets up to 20 BAB and 4 APR. the BD has a very limited weapon list and cant were any armor or use shields to ballence that out and to fit with the concept i gave it the ability to have more than 20 BAB( up to 28) and more then 4 APR( adding to more) now this is without counting the extra offhand attacks but if you count them then the fighter gets 7 and the BD gets 9/ IMO not that bad. lets see 8 points better at hiting and 2 extra attacks and one unique weapon ballenced against all other weapons and armor and shields i think it is ballenced. I like the idea of 1 AC every other level( agree it is more ballenced) other then thease things i like how you all have altered this class.
q'afuu 09-24-04, 02:15 PM	As for the increase being to powerfull think on this: the fighter can use any weapon and wear any armor and use shields, the fighter gets up to 20 BAB and 4 APR. the BD has a very limited weapon list and cant were any armor or use shields to ballence that out and to fit with the concept i gave it the ability to have more than 20 BAB( up to 28) and more then 4 APR( adding to more) now this is without counting the extra offhand attacks but if you count them then the fighter gets 7 and the BD gets 9/ IMO not that bad. lets see 8 points better at hiting and 2 extra attacks and one unique weapon ballenced against all other weapons and armor and shields i think it is ballenced. It might have been balanced had there been a major appeal to using weapons other than the tan and had the loss of the option to wear armour really been a sacrifice. As it is, neither is really true IMO. The only real loss when it comes to weapons is that of the ranged ones (in melee, there are no weapons that are really decidedly better than the tan) - and that can be solved simply by taking a fighter/ranger/barbarian/paladin level or even simply by playing an elf. When it comes to armour, the BD loses out on the obvious cheap way to increase AC (by wearing armour), but he still gets to increase his AC (furthermore, his AC increases apply to his touch AC, which is *very* appealing). And since he won't be spending any money on his weapon (which he can't lose, which can't be taken away from him and which can't be destroyed), he can obviously afford to spend the money he saves that way on the more expensive ways to increase AC (Dex boosters, natural armour, bracers, etc). Nope, all in all I don't see much of a sacrifice made here. Getting +8 BAB otoh is a humongous benefit - I mean, you get iterative attacks sooner, you hit more often and by using power attack you do more damage. Plus, it's nonsensical: the fighter class, which gets only one thing they're good at and that's fighting, is only 70% (20/28) as good at hitting things as the BD. How does that make sense? The absolute best fighter who has devoted all his life to being better at being a fighter can't hold a candle to a character from this class when it comes to fighting.
q'afuu 09-24-04, 02:19 PM	Hey to answer the question of why it is on this board i am planing to DM an Eberon Campain, just taht as of yet i have not had the time to buy the book. So? I mean, no offense, but that's no reason to post this here. It's a class, it has nothing to do with Eberron specifically - hence, it should be on the regular Classes board.
spartan118 09-24-04, 04:13 PM	Hey just so you know how much of a lossthe weapon thing is. The BD may not use any weapons but the Tan and dagger weapons period, not even by adding other classes and to make that final i think the best thing is to make it like the paliden and the monk that if you choose to go another way the BD looses most of its abilities. also the fighter spends his life training to fight in general( all weapons,armor, shield, and all other aspects of being a general fighter) where as the BD spent most of his life training at just the tan and daggers, learning to do without armor and shield and learning to move faster than most people. this is why the BD IMO should be able to have a higher BAB and more attacks. as for posting here the eberron campain i am going to run will have this class in it and i wanted some info from people who had DMed it as to how to get it to work. i do thank all of you for the advice but i do think that is one aspect of the BD that i want to keep. one final question for all of you. With having said that about the class being final( like the monk and paladin) do you think that that ballences the BAB bonus and # of attacks?
ThanisKartaleon 09-24-04, 04:20 PM	Since it's an at will ability, always on, the mechanic you apply to overcome sundering (simply manifesting it again) applies to all of the above. Who cares if the Tan gets disarmed - just manifest it again. Need it concealed - you don't manifest it until you need it, so how much more concealed can you get? To compare, the Soulknife can only manifest his soulknife as a free action from level 5 on (it's a move action at first), and even then that's limited to once per round. If the tan gets disarmed, that means the BD no longer has it. Thus, he cannot manifest it. I addressed concealment and sundering in my last post. Good point about the soulknife, though. Move Action for the first 4 levels or so might be a good idea. Untill reaching the Razor dagger. I had the razor dagger at 1d6+2 because it is a unique weapon only for the BD. ------------------------------ The fact that the DMG says that no mater if the BAB goes over 20, 4 attacks per rnd is the max. I dont think this is corect as in the epic books after 20 it becomes additional attack bonus( i believe if wrong sorry) and that AAB doesnt count for # of attacks. Take a look at the weapons in the PHB. None of them have a "+X" after damage. Instead, try 2d4? I'm not sure you're clear on your argument here. Regardless, we have pretty much all let you know that bonuses to Base Attack Bonus (Note it says Base, as in unmodified) is a VERY BAD IDEA. I will say no more on the subject.
WizO_Sith 09-24-04, 05:07 PM	This isn't really Eberron-specific, therefore it will be moved to the Prestige Classes board. *Bamf*
ThanisKartaleon 09-24-04, 07:49 PM	I like the way you guys resetup how the tan gains forms as it goes up in level. I have only one change to make to what you all have done. base off the original concaept the weapon starts large and as the BD learns how to master it he is able to make use of continualy smaller forms. Untill reaching the Razor dagger. -------------- lets see 8 points better at hiting and 2 extra attacks and one unique weapon ballenced against all other weapons and armor and shields i think it is ballenced. I like the idea of 1 AC every other level( agree it is more ballenced) other then thease things i like how you all have altered this class. Except that by D&D mechanics, there'd be no point in leveling up in that class then. If you start off with a free greatsword or bastard sword, why go through smaller (and less powerful) weapons just to get to a weapon that, in all seriousness, isn't *that* much more powerful than the weapon you started with? One option though, if you want to do this, is to have the same progression I noted, but have the weapons have the size and balance (thus lightness/two-handedness) reversed. So a two-handed weapon that deals 1d4 19-20/x2, then a one-handed weapon that deals 1d6 19-20 x2, then a one-handed weapon that deals 1d8 19-20 x2, then a light weapon that deals 1d10, then one that deals 2d6, followed by the razor daggers. Keep in mind, though, that D&D makes 2-handed weapons generally more powerful than one-handed & light weapons. You apply 1-1/2 your strength bonus to 2-handed weapons, and you can 2-hand a one-handed weapon, but a light weapon cannot gain this advantage. ------------------ except you're forgeting that a) you may have one "weapon" but it becomes more powerful as you do, and incurs only a 1 lb weight penalty out of combat and b) you may not be able to wear armor, but let's see... at level 1 you're effectively wearing padded armor... lvl 3 leather.... level 5 studded... lvl 7 chain shirt... lvl 9 chain mail... etc etc... your armor also levels up... AND it doesn't incur arcane spell failure, check penalty, max dex penalty, weight penalty... AND it's also good against touch attacks. Most melee characters have between 20 and 70 pounds of weapons and armor. Also.. 8 points better at hitting... that's +40% better. That's an insane increase in attack power over a class that is supposed to be the master of being able to hit things. You don't gain extra attacks for a BAB over 20, so that's a moot point, but if you were able to... that's a possibility of, say, an extra 32 damage, with an average strength bonus for a 20th level melee class. More if they crit, which is likely with an improved critical range of 15-20. Balanced, you say?
The Grinning Pint 09-24-04, 10:23 PM	Hey if i wanted non construcktive critisism, i would have craped in my hat. if you want to be helpful try sugesting some ideas on how to fix it. as i said i put it together without any books in front of me so give me a break. ^ one piece of criticism is here: SPELLING. Please remember that the original meaning of criticism was constructive anyways, and constructive criticism is repeating.
jktrondarr 09-25-04, 02:40 AM	as a 20 lvl core class this is way broken(cool-but broken). i would drop the blade dance bonuses from +2 to +1, make a limit to the # of times/day he can manifest the "tan", and if you're really determined to give him more than 4 attacks/round simply use the monk unarmed attack progression & change it to be useable only with his "tan weapon" instead of u/a attacks. even with those changes however, i think this concept might work better as a 10 lvl prestige class. anyway, i hope you come up with a reasonable fix, cuz' i would like to see this class in play.
spartan118 09-25-04, 11:13 AM	hey great idea for the attack progression. why think you it should be a prestige class? how about this for attack progression? 1-3=1 4-6=2 7-9=3 10-12=4 13-16=5 17-20=6 hows that sound. im thinking of changing the bonuses given by the blade dance feats to: +1 to BAB( this way they can have max of 24 BAB)(attacks based off level) +1 Init( they increase in reaction speed as they develop) +1 AC( they move quicker and quicker and become harder to hit) +1 Reflex save( movement means better chance to get away from effects) +1 damage( based from better aim not harder hits) what do you think? as they are now i think it is more ballenced but would like to hear your opinions.
spartan118 09-25-04, 01:41 PM	how about this Lvl: AC bonus: BAB # Att Feats & Special 1 +2 +1 +1 Manifest Tan, (Blade Dance +1 to Init), Tan Form “Raen-Tan”(Great Sword) 2 Evasion, (Blade Dance +1 to Damage) 3 +2 +1 Uncanny Dodge, (Blade Dance +1 to Reflex Save), Tan Form “Thian- Tan”(Katana) 4 Modify Tan, (Blade Dance +1 to Init), Tan From “Ranji-Tan”(Long Sword) 5 +2 +1 +1 Improved Evasion, (Blade Dance +1 to Damage) 6 Weapon Focus Tan, (Blade Dance +1 to Reflex Save), Tan Form “Jyan- Tan”(Short Sword) 7 +2 +1 Improved Uncanny Dodge, (Blade Dance +1 to Init), Tan Form “Shou- Tan”(Dagger) 8 Two Weapon Fighting, (Blade Dance +1 to Damage), Tan Form “Elok- Tan”(Razor Dagger 2D4(all sizes) 18- 20*2 crit) 9 +2 +1 +1 Improved Two Weapon Fighting, (Blade Dance +1 to Init), Tan Form “Osu- Tan”(Dual Razor Dagger) 10 Greater Two Weapon Fighting, (Blade Dance +1 to Damage and Reflex Save) never made a prestige class before so this may be off a bit. Ended up with total of +3 attacks, +5 BAB( just for to hit purposes), +10 AC( dex bonus to AC) The idea is that as you get faster you get better at hiting and you begin to use smaller and faster weapons so as to make the most of the speed and accuracy that you gain as you improve. thats why you start with swords and go to razor daggers.