Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bladesinger Boy 12-20-04, 08:25 PM	Okay, from the 3.5 Bladesinger in the Complete Warrior, what problems do people see? I'll set 'em up, see if you can knock 'em down (or stand them back up). -Reqs: Combat Casting Needs to be removed. There should be at least one magic-realted requirement, and if there are quickening or psuedo-quickening abilities, then Quicken Spell makes sense. -Reqs: Weapon Focus To reflect the Longsword or Rapier choice, I think Weapon Focus or Weapon Finesse would be appropriate. The more feats you force someone to take, the more the sledgehammer people into one certain build. Song Of Celerity Um, I don't know why they thought this version would help improve things. It's no good at all. Keep it at the same levels (4th, 8th, 12th, etc) but have it be one spell per round that, when using a full round atack, they can spontaneouly quicken. They can use the ability at will, but the spell must be 1st level or below, then 2nds at eighth, then 3rds at twelfth. It only works with very weak spells and still counts toward the 1 quicken spell/ round limit. On another note, I wish there were a few more customizable options for each ability. Bladesingers are anything but cookie-cutter copies of each other, each using the weave and their own will and grace differently than others. Almost like kung fu and various martial arts masters each very capable but each unique compared to others. Lesser Spellsong, Greater Spellsong, and I think the inception of a new Spellsong ability should each have two or three options to make each Bladesinger a truely unique character. Okay, so for each ability the Bladesinger would pick one option. Lesser Spellsong: choose one - can "take 10" on concentration and tumble checks - only -2 to hit when fighting defensively - now +3 AC bonuses for the single 'dodged' opponent Greater Spellsong: +2 on all perform checks as well as... (choose one) - ignore arcane spell failure from light armour - Armed Deflection: as per the epic feat that grants Deflect Arrows functional Sword Finesse (ex): The Bladesinger's combat style favors agility and dexterity over brute strength, fluidly striking with their sword. The Bladesinger may now either... - use the weapon finesse feat with a Longsword, or - use Longswords and Rapiers as a monk weapon usable with Flurry Of Blows Awakening Mind: The Bladesinger gains either +1 lvl of Spellcasting or a bonus feat of their choice. This happens at 2nd lvl and every 4 lvls thereafter. . REQUIREMENTS To qualify to become an Bladesinger, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Race: elf or half elf BAB: +5 Skills: Balance 2 ranks, Concentration 4 ranks, Perform(dance) 2 ranks, Perform(sing) 2 ranks, Spellcraft 2 ranks, Tumble 2 ranks Feats: Dodge, Quicken Spell, and two of the folowing: Weapon finesse, Weapon Focus (Longsword or Rapier), Combat Expertise spells: able to cast 1st level arcane spells GAME RULE INFORMATION Bladesingers have the following game statistics. Base Attack Bonus: medium (3/4) ]Hit Die: d8 Saves:[/B] High Reflex/Will Class Skills: The Bladesinger's class skills are Balance (dex), concentration (con), craft (int), jump (str), knowledge(arcana) (int), move silently (dex), perform (cha), sleight of hand (dex), spellcraft (int), tumble (dex) Skill points at each level: 2+int 1 Bladesong style. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .+1 Spellcaster Level 2 Sword Finesse, Awakening Mind. . . . . . 3 Lesser Spellsong. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level 4 Song of Celerity (1st). . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level 6 Awakening Mind. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 Greater spellsong. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .+1 Spellcaster Level 8 Song of Celerity (2nd). . . . . . . . . . . . 9 Song of Fury. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .+1 Spellcaster Level 10 Awakening Mind. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Does "Song Of Fury" really work, would a few options be better? Does 5th lvl need an ability, Spellsong? Does the 3/4 BAB and Awakening Mind balance things out for a less tank-ish Fighter/Mage build?
Shadowbane 12-20-04, 09:21 PM	Why a 3/4 attack bonus? Yer killin me. The Bladesinger is my favorite class and the only class I have ever achieved epic levels with, and I think the class is very balanced. There is always room for improvement in everything however. Even though a bladesinger has a afinity to longswords doesnt mean that it is light enough to use weapon finesse. I have a real longsword here at my house and it's semi heavy. I use a rapier with my Bladesinger so I do use weapon finesse and I also took 3 swashbuckler (the swash also fits nicely with the bladesinger theme) levels for insightful strike. Awakening mind looks cool, but I dunno if I would ever give up my wizard levels for any feat currently known to me. I have a caster level of 16 at level 23 (with practiced spell caster feat). This new idea does open the door to very diferent bladesingers and giving people a choice is always a good thing and I like that. Maybe I would give up one level if there was a feat I really wanted badly and didnt want to wait.
Bladesinger Boy 12-21-04, 04:01 AM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=5079020&posted=1#post5079020 This thread has some ongoing related Bladesinger revision discussion. It is commonly thought that 3/4 Base Attack is too low for a Bladesinger? My theory was that Bladesingers are out and out the most hardcore of fighter types and it then allows me to put in abilties to flavour it more; this isn't just an AC spellsword, people. The BAB, spell progression, and Awakening MInd ability were all closely connected. I didn't want to give it full spell progression; they're not full mages and compared to mage PrCs with full spell progression and 1/2 BAB, it didn't seem fair. The Eldritch Knight kept me back in line. What if the spell progression was 2/3 and then at 3rd lvl and every 3 thereafter there was Awakening Mind? The Longsword finesse I see as validating the Longsword alongside the Rapier. As said, finesse aside, the Longsword are Rapier are very parallel with one slightly favoured normal damage and the other favouring criticals. Finesse puts them on a level field. Even the possibility of being normally trained in one of the weapons, but being able to use the other should a good opportunity arise is nice (magic weapons found are never "perfect" in any campaign). How's this? . Bladesong Style (ex): as per standard Complete Warrior description. Sword Finesse (ex): The Bladesinger's combat style favors agility and dexterity over brute strength, fluidly striking with their sword. The Bladesinger may now... (choose one) - use the Weapon Finesse feat with a Longsword {Quicksword Style} - use Longswords and Rapiers as monk weapons usable with Flurry Of Blows {Sword Dancer Style} Awakening Mind: The Bladesinger's inner journey and training in solitude unlock deeper knowledge from within. At 3rd lvl and every 3 thereafter, they gain either... (choose one) - +1 lvl of existing spellcasting {Wisdom of the Arcane Spirit} - a bonus feat {Wisdom of the True Battle} Song of celerity (ex): At 4th level the Bladesinger has learned to blend spellcasting and martial prowess into a seamless whole. Once per round while making a full attack, with a Longsword or Rapier in his main hand and nothing in his offhand the Bladesinger may cast a spontaneouly Quickened 1st level spell (as a free action). This spell can be interrupted and still requires a somatic and verbal component, and, as per the Quicken Spell metamagic, can only be applied to spells with a duraiton of 1 round or less. Every four levels later (at 8th lvl), the Bladesinger's Song Of Celerity improves to include the ability to quicken one spell level higher spells, thus 2nds at 8th lvl, 3rds level spells at 12th, etc. Lesser Spellsong (ex): The Bladesinger can now truly focus their attention in combat situations to where it is most needed. They now gain an additional +1AC (total +2AC) on their chosen dodge opponent as well as... (choose one) - can "take 10" on any concentration check {Infinite Heart} - only -2 to hit when fighting defensively {All Seeing Eyes} Greater Spellsong (ex): The Bladesinger's harmonious blending of many elements as one grants them greater artistic ability and combat versatility. They now gain a +2 bonus on all perform checks as well as... (choose one) - ignore arcane spell failure from light armour {Seemless Weaver} - Armed Deflection: as per the epic feat that grants Deflect Arrows function for Longswords and Rapiers {Unerring Blade} Song Of Fury (ex): Finally skilled enough to properly channel their passion and inner drive, the Bladesinger has the training to perform one of the two following techniques. - when performing a full round attack, the Bladesinger may gain an extra attack at their highest Base Attack Bonus {Thousand Cuts Style} - when attacking with their Longsword or Rapier, the Bladesinger may use their Intelligence instead Strength for melee damage {Fatal Insight Style} Lvl _Bab ___Class Feature_________________________________ _ 1st +0 Bladesong Style. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level 2nd +1 Sword Finesse. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .+1 Spellcaster Level 3rd +2 Awakening Mind . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4th +3 Song of Celerity (1st). . . . . . . . . . . .+1 Spellcaster Level 5th +3 Lesser Spellsong. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level 6th +4 Awakening Mind. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7th +5 Greater spellsong. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level 8th +6 Song of Celerity (2nd). . . . . . . . . . . .+1 Spellcaster Level 9th +6 Awakening Mind . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10th +7 Song of Fury. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level
Mirtek 12-21-04, 04:41 AM	I am against allowing a bladesinger WF (longsword) (and I also say it was a misstake to change the class from "longsword only" to longsword or rapier) I think the bladesinger is powerfull enough as it currently is. How mayn 3.x bladesingers had we? IIRC this is the fourth, and each was more powerfull than the last. Makes you wonder when the 6th or 8th version will get divine ranks :rolleyes:
Bladesinger Boy 12-21-04, 11:14 AM	You're against Bladesingers needing Weapon Focus? I didn't appreciate the Rapier at first, and builds too duelisty still annoy me, but I do now think it fits. It's partially a matter of power, but more importantly a matter of flavour and style. Fighter BAB and 1/2 progression with a few forgetable abilities makes Bladesingers a crappy AC spellsword. There needs to be more differences, strengths and weaknesses. 3/4 BAB is a big hit. "Listen, if you want to be a tank, apply elsewhere". And fighting with only a one-handed weapon with a non-strength character means dishing it out in melee is not possible. A Bladesinger's strengths lie in other areas. Jokes about divine ranks aside, what balance issues do people see about this version? Is the possibility for full casting progression too powerful? Is Greater Spellsong an even set of options? Is the new Song Of Fury a balanced set of options? Comments, people.
MiloDragonbait 12-21-04, 11:30 AM	I would consider allowing the Elven Thinblade to substitute for the rapier. Even the description of the weapon itself says its "a rapier-like" weapon. And since it would cost a Feat slot to use effectively, it would be balanced.
Chosen of Bane 12-21-04, 11:38 AM	I am a big fan of the Bladesinger PrC but I do thing one change needs to be made. I do not like the idea of a bladesinger using a rapier. I think the longsword is the perfect elven weapon but because a bladesinger is dependant on high Dex, using weapon finesse and using a rapier make it a superior build to the longsword wielding bladesinger. So, in my games I am toying with two options... 1) Remove Rapier from the list of weapons usable with bladesong. 2) Allow Bladesingers (and only Bladesingers) to finesse a longsword I don't like the idea of using elven thinblade because that goes back to my original problem, I think Longsword = Bladesinger What does everyone else think about making one of the two listed changes to the PrC?
Bladesinger Boy 12-21-04, 04:58 PM	Good Points. Elven Thinblade, check. Personally, when I first saw the Bladesinger as a 3rd Ed PrC I thought any one-handed slashing weapon would be suitable (allowing also scimitars and katanas/bastard swords). How does that sound? Should the Bladesinger pick a single weapon that is their "style" they've trained in, or be moderately diverse in a genre of swords? Thanks for the pointers. Info always welcome.:)
Bladesinger Boy 12-22-04, 07:52 PM	REQUIREMENTS To qualify to become an Bladesinger, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Race: elf or half elf BAB: +5 Skills: Balance 2 ranks, Concentration 4 ranks, Perform(dance) 2 ranks, Perform(sing) 2 ranks, Spellcraft 2 ranks, Tumble 2 ranks Feats: Dodge, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (chosen blade), Quicken Spell spells: able to cast 1st level arcane spells GAME RULE INFORMATION Bladesingers have the following game statistics. Base Attack Bonus: medium (3/4) Hit Die: d8 Saves: high Reflex/Will, low Fortitude Class Skills: The Bladesinger's class skills are Balance (dex), Concentration (con), Craft (int), Jump (str), Knowledge(Arcana) (int), Move Silently (dex), Perform (cha), Sense Motive (wis), Sleight of Hand (dex), Spellcraft (int), Tumble (dex) Skill points at each level: 2+int Chosen Blade:[/I] Upon embarking on the bladesinger path, the bladesinger must focus their training on one particular style of blade to use. The sword must be a one-handed melee and must be the same size of the bladesinger, medium for a normal sized Elf. The sword must either be a slashing weapon or a piercing weapon in naturally finesseable, and must be a sword of some kind (one-handed axes are not acceptable). They must chose a sword they have taken the Weapon Focus feat for. Longswords, Bastard Swords, Scimitars, Rapiers, and Elven Thinblades are viable options. [I]Bladesong Style (ex): When wielding their chosen blade in one hand (and nothing in the other), a bladesinger gains a dodge bonus to Armour Class equal to their class level, up to a maximum of their Intelligence bonus. If a bladesinger wears medium or heavy armour, they lose all benefits of the bladesong style. Sword Finesse (ex): The bladesinger's combat style favors agility and dexterity over brute strength, gracefully striking with the sword they have trained in. The bladesinger now: [choose one] - gains the Weapon Finesse feat and may also now apply Weapon Finesse to their chosen blade {Quicksword Style} - may have their chosen blade considered a monk weapon usable with Flurry Of Blows and the Stunning Fist feat should they have it {Sword Dancer Style} Awakening Mind: The Bladesinger's inner journey and training in solitude unlock deeper knowledge from within. At 3rd lvl and every 3 levels thereafter, they gain either... [choose one] - +1 lvl of existing spellcasting {Wisdom of the Arcane Spirit} - a bonus feat {Wisdom of the True Battle} Song of Celerity (ex): The bladesinger has learned to blend spellcasting and martial prowess into a seamless whole. Once per round, the bladesinger may quicken a single spell of up to 1st level, as if they had used the Quicken Spell feat, but without any adjustment to the spell's effective level or casting time. The bladesinger may only use this ability when wielding their chosen blade in one hand (and nothing in the other) while making a full round attack. At 8th level and every 4 lvls thereafter, the bladesinger's Song of Celerity may quicken one spell level higher. Lesser Spellsong (ex): The Bladesinger can now truly focus their attention in combat situations to where it is most needed and focus on the deep harmony of any situation. They now gain a +2 bonus on all perform checks as well as: [choose one] - can "take 10" on any concentration check {Boundless Will} - only -2 to hit when fighting defensively {Sublime Sight} Greater Spellsong (ex): The Bladesinger's harmonious blending of many elements as one grants them greater artistic ability, combat versatility, and simplicity of attachment. They now gain the Eschew Materials feat as well as: [choose one] - ignore arcane spell failure from light armour {Seemless Weaver} - Quicken Spell metamagic cost reduced by one spell level {Swift Arcana} Song Of Fury (ex): Finally focused enough to skillfully channel their passion and inner drive in combat prowess, the Bladesinger has the training to perform only one of the two following techniques with their chosen blade: - when the bladesinger makes a full round attack with their chosen blade in one hand (and nothing in the other), they can make one extra attack in a round at their highest base attack bonus when performing a full round attack {Thousand Cuts Style} - when the bladesinger wields their chosen blade in one hand (and nothing in the other), they apply their Intelligence bonus (if any) as a bonus on damage rolls (in addition to any Strength bonus she may have) {Fatal Insight Style} Lvl _Bab ___Class Feature_________________________________ _ 1st +0 Bladesong Style, Chosen Blade. . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level 2nd +1 Sword Finesse. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .+1 Spellcaster Level 3rd +2 Awakening Mind . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4th +3 Song of Celerity (1st). . . . . . . . . . . .+1 Spellcaster Level 5th +3 Lesser Spellsong. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level 6th +4 Awakening Mind. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7th +5 Greater spellsong. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level 8th +6 Song of Celerity (2nd). . . . . . . . . . . .+1 Spellcaster Level 9th +6 Awakening Mind . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10th +7 Song of Fury. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level So, how's she lookin'? Questions, comments, adorations, harassments?
Bladesinger Boy 12-24-04, 03:56 AM	REQUIREMENTS To qualify to become a Bladesinger, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Race: elf or half elf BAB: +5 Alignment: any non-evil Skills: Balance 2 ranks, Concentration 4 ranks, Perform(dance) 2 ranks, Perform(sing) 2 ranks, Spellcraft 2 ranks, Tumble 2 ranks Feats: Dodge, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (chosen blade), Quicken Spell spells: able to cast 1st level arcane spells GAME RULE INFORMATION Bladesingers have the following game statistics Base Attack Bonus: medium (3/4) Hit Die: d8 Saves: low Fortitude, high Reflex & Will Class Skills: The Bladesinger's class skills are Balance (dex), Concentration (con), Craft (int), Jump (str), Knowledge(Arcana) (int), Move Silently (dex), Perform (cha), Sense Motive (wis), Sleight of Hand (dex), Spellcraft (int), Tumble (dex) Skill points at each level: 2 + int Lvl _Bab ___Class Feature_________________________________ _ 1st +0 Bladesong Style, Chosen Blade. . . . . . 2nd +1 Sword Finesse. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level 3rd +2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level 4th +3 Song of Celerity (1st). . . . . . . . . . . . .+1 Spellcaster Level 5th +3 Lesser Spellsong. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level 6th +4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level 7th +5 Greater spellsong. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .+1 Spellcaster Level 8th +6 Song of Celerity (2nd). . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level 9th +6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level 10th +7 Song of Fury. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .+1 Spellcaster Level I got rid of the Awakening Mind ability to simplify spellcasting. Most would pick spellcasting anyway, it's now the same as the Eldritch Knight so comparisons are easier, and I've knocked off a level at first to reflect the bladesinger's dual nature and hinder/prevent splashing. I also added the requirement of being non-evil; fair, or unnecessarily anti-Drow? I think it's pretty close, but I still can't quite tell if it's balanced (relative to comparable classes and uniqueness/power of abilities) or if the feat, armour, and weapon choice requirements dicate something else. Also too, I want the abilities to be unique enough that no Bladesinger could get them all; I would hate to think some Swashbuckler/Warmage/Monk could catch everything. If Lesser Spellsong was at 3rd, Greater Spell was at 9th, and a new Spellsong ability was at 6th: 1) would it be balanced? 2) what could it do? 3) would it be unique? Lesser Spellsong involves improving defence or relative impairment, Greater is about better casting, what could Spellsong involve? - Fighting better with attack spells - movement and mobility in combat (Flashdance style, lol :D) - involve a bonus/restriction of their chosen blade - something more social and role-playing having to do with their upheld duties or connection to other Bladesingers - bardic music funk - some non-combatative ability about Elves 4 hour trace in relation to 1 hour of spellbook study and subsequently needed 4 hours of sleep - Practiced Spellcaster - reaction, initiative (uncanny dodge, Improved Initiative?) - tactics/teamwork bonus (+4 when flanking, Combat Reflexes, Hold The Line?)
-Defiler of Souls- 12-24-04, 04:35 PM	well you could always try my Alternate Bladesinger (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=333323) . it was my attempt to replace the complete warrior bladesinger which was insufficient is several ways.
Bladesinger Boy 12-24-04, 04:36 PM	Lvl _Bab ___Class Feature_________________________________ _ 1st +0 Bladesong Style, Chosen Blade. . . . . . 2nd +1 Sword Finesse. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level 3rd +2 Lesser Spellsong. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level 4th +3 Song of Celerity (1st). . . . . . . . . . . . .+1 Spellcaster Level 5th +3 Spellsong. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .+1 Spellcaster Level 6th +4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level 7th +5 Greater spellsong. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .+1 Spellcaster Level 8th +6 Song of Celerity (2nd). . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level 9th +6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +1 Spellcaster Level 10th +7 Song of Fury. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .+1 Spellcaster Level Spellsong (ex): The bladesinger's in their seeking of greater connection has delved into the depths their own soul or become attuned to the hearts of others. The bladesinger may now: [choose one] - only requires their 4 hours of trance to prepare wizard spells and has a 10% chance (or DM's discretion) of having a Vision without any experience costs during their rest {Lucid Mind} - gains a +4 bonus to Diplomacy, Gather Info, and Sense Motive checks but now also suffers a -4 to Intimidate. To choose this, the Bladesinger must be good aligned {Infinite Heart} - gains Bardic Knowledge based on their class level which stacks with other similar abilities {Ancient Recall}
Bladesinger Boy 12-24-04, 04:45 PM	Defiler Of Souls, I know; I'm the dude who posted a few times on there. I'm trying to make it more accessible and balanced. If it suits you guys, bust a move and play with it. The few I've spoken to about it don't agree with it; I'm cooking up some alternatives. Good to hear from you. I get the feeling you don't want me meddling with your Bladesinger, which is fine and your choice. If you see anything imbalancing or unproperly continuity aligned with respect to a Bladesinger's mindset or role, PLEASE tell me. I want to make this as both balanced but also diverse as possible. Imagine a high Dan, martial artist zen master; no two are alike. People, please post any problems you have, both game mechanics and story/role-play concept, with this version of the Bladesinger.
-Defiler of Souls- 12-24-04, 08:14 PM	btw i do know you've seen my prc...i just will never miss a chance to post a link to one of my prcs when i get the chance :D
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 01-08-05, 01:26 PM	To me, the 2nd edition Bladesinger was the best. The reason they don't have full BAB is because no elf would take the Eldritch Knight PrC. I always thought of the bladesinger as a Twin Longsword weilding, magic-using, blade kit (from the Bard's Handbook in 2nd edition). They were flashing combatants who twirled their weapons in dizzying display's that unerved their opponents. Pretty much a walking intimidation machine. I have a Bladesinger variant that I did. Check it out in my descrip.