Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Zeb 08-31-04, 11:53 PM	Hi folks, I was wondering which Bladesinger version (Tome of Blood, web enhancement, Races of Faerun or Complete Warrior) people used most and why. I love the Races of Faerun one, except for the independent spell list. I like the +1 caster level idea for the Complete Warrior one, but hate that such a high pre-req PrC lost some of its extras (bonus feats for one). I'd like to see a hybrid version...either 1) RoF with 1/2 caster progression or 2) CW with a 3/4 caster progression Looking forward to seeing some ideas. Anyone want to make some wagers that the Complete Arcane and/or Races of (the Elven one) will have yet another Bladesinger PrC? Thanks in advance, Zeb
Cold Napalm 09-01-04, 12:00 AM	I like the CW one...mainly because it mixes so well with the spellsword now. 3/4 progression would break the blade singer I think. If you built it like the RoF one, then your definately losing out, but think of it as a way to make it more castery.
Wil Harvey 09-01-04, 12:05 AM	I'm actually looking at creating a set of feats to reflect the way 2E warriors (and less often a couple other classes) could spend proficiencies to learn the bladesong style.
Lord Zeb 09-01-04, 12:10 AM	Napalm - thanks for the input! If not 3/4, I think the CW could use a slight caster boost beyond the 1/2 rate it has right now. Especially in games where GMs don't allow multiple PrCs per PC. Wil - sounds interesting, have anything written up yet as a rough draft? Be happy to provide any input I can.
Wil Harvey 09-01-04, 12:23 AM	Nothing written down yet. I've got a good handle on the mechanics in my head, though. The reason I'm balking at soliciting the forum's input so far is because I've submitted the idea to Dragon, seeing if it's something they'd be interested in. If they give me the no-go, I'll definitely start throwing around ideas on here. Until then, though, it's probably a safe bet to keep my ideas as my ideas to avoid any potential hassle.
Cold Napalm 09-01-04, 12:37 AM	Yeah, much less useful if your not mixing PrC...but if it did have better then half progression it gets a bit too good for mixing with other PrC is the problem.
Ithilorien 09-01-04, 12:40 AM	A long time ago I made feats to replicate Bladesong style from the 2e Complete Book of Elves. The problem was that they were basically just Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, and Elusive Target for Elves. :shrug: I'd be interested to see what you come up with. So far as the bladesinger versions go, I like complete warrior, the Races of Faerun is great, but hindered by it's separate caster progression, yet I think RoF with full casting would be way too uber. Complete Warrior with 3/4 casting is an interesting proposition, I'll take a look at that one. What we really need is an arcane archer with 1/2 caster progression and a more interesting version enchant arrow (like the ability to add various +# equivalent enchantments such as flaming, ghost touch et cetera) rather than the almost absolutely useless one we have now (also known as take to level 2 for Imbue Arrow, then become an Eldritch Knight).
Cold Napalm 09-01-04, 12:58 AM	Why not use bladesong striaght from class feature as a feat if you really want a bladesong style? Must use a rapier/longsword with nothing in the other hand and get int bonus as a dodge to AC? Or if that,s too much make it 3 feats, one for +2, one for +4 and one for full int bonus?
Wil Harvey 09-01-04, 02:29 AM	Because the 2E bladesong style afforded you the choice of what you wanted to do with the bladesong style, and gave you varying bonuses on those actions. That's what I'm really trying to replicate. The bladesong style in 2E also meant sacrificing training with other weapons, even those favored by elves. The bladesinger prestige class or its abilities give no such drawback. Finally, it also required sacrificing significant time and money. It took some warriors 30+ years to learn the style. As it stands now, it's like any other ability, which kind of cheapens the whole mystique about it. Buch I digress. I don't want to delve too deep into this knowing I have no intention of posting my ideas as of yet.
Cold Napalm 09-01-04, 03:08 AM	Yeah I really like the bladesong style in 2ed...I was thinking of making it a feat, but it' really hard to fir it in as a feat...I mean feats just don't have the same feel to it as all the req in 2ed. I was thinking of adding it as a style feat at one time after CW came out...but couldn't quite get it right.
Obi-Wan Shinobi 09-01-04, 10:14 AM	personally, i really dislike all of the PrC of the Bladesinger. i would prefer it to be more of a class instead. by 2nd edition, the Bladesinger was from a particular lodge, learning to use one particular weapon, that they trained with forever. in 3rd edition, they can use the long sword or rapier... what happened to all the other lodges??? yeah, i realize the DM can change it to allow any weapon, but why hamstring the player that may not realize the "history" of the bladesinger into thinking he can only use one of 2 weapons??? i have made a 20 level class out of it, expanding on their abilities. a bladesinger was supposed to be a one-weapon warrior-mage, who trained from a very young age to master one weapon. by 3rd edition, he is a fighter/mage combo who just happens to pick up extra abilities by choosing the PrC.
Lord Zeb 09-01-04, 11:28 AM	personally, i really dislike all of the PrC of the Bladesinger. i would prefer it to be more of a class instead. by 2nd edition, the Bladesinger was from a particular lodge, learning to use one particular weapon, that they trained with forever. in 3rd edition, they can use the long sword or rapier... what happened to all the other lodges??? yeah, i realize the DM can change it to allow any weapon, but why hamstring the player that may not realize the "history" of the bladesinger into thinking he can only use one of 2 weapons??? i have made a 20 level class out of it, expanding on their abilities. a bladesinger was supposed to be a one-weapon warrior-mage, who trained from a very young age to master one weapon. by 3rd edition, he is a fighter/mage combo who just happens to pick up extra abilities by choosing the PrC. Interesting take, have you ever posted the Bladesinger Core Class anywhere? Is it similar to the UA Battle Sorcerer class (f-m +1 martial wpn)? Thanks, Zeb
The Souljourner 09-01-04, 01:26 PM	Complete Warrior all the way. It's the most up to date official version. Plus, it's pretty decent. Sure, it's only 1/2 caster level, and could probably stand to be a little better, but you get really good bonuses, and it's intended to be a "fighter first, wizard second" class, not vice versa (like eldritch knight). -The Souljourner
Seraph of Babel 09-01-04, 01:57 PM	I played a bladesinger before CW was released. Song of celerity was great, especially when you keep casting true strike during full attacks. The CW version was good with its +1 caster level, but I find its song of celerity too weak. Now as a DM, I house rule the following to CW bladesinger: Add elven thinblade to all references of “long sword or rapier”. Song of celerity can be used 1/day per 2 class levels after level 2.
Lord Zeb 09-02-04, 12:50 PM	Another option occurred to me this morning. 3. CW with 3/4 caster and 3/4 BAB and one or two bonus feats. Not quite Fighter first, Wizard Second. More of a true half-'n-half gish. As for the RoF version, anyone try using Bard as the spellcasting pre-req? Good synergy for the required skills if nothing else... Thanks, Zeb
Ithilorien 09-15-04, 01:59 AM	As for the RoF version, anyone try using Bard as the spellcasting pre-req? Good synergy for the required skills if nothing else... It also gives more hit points and a better reflex save, before CW gave Bladesingers separate caster progression using bard rather than wizard was optimal. Now wizard or sorcerer are far better choices for the spellcasting.
kdyal 09-21-04, 11:43 AM	personally, i really dislike all of the PrC of the Bladesinger. i would prefer it to be more of a class instead. by 2nd edition, the Bladesinger was from a particular lodge, learning to use one particular weapon, that they trained with forever. in 3rd edition, they can use the long sword or rapier... what happened to all the other lodges??? yeah, i realize the DM can change it to allow any weapon, but why hamstring the player that may not realize the "history" of the bladesinger into thinking he can only use one of 2 weapons??? i have made a 20 level class out of it, expanding on their abilities. a bladesinger was supposed to be a one-weapon warrior-mage, who trained from a very young age to master one weapon. by 3rd edition, he is a fighter/mage combo who just happens to pick up extra abilities by choosing the PrC. I agree. A 20-level class is the only way to really characterize something that involves training from birth... One thing I include is a unique BAB progression - 1/1 for preferred weapon, 1/2 for every other weapon. I'll post my version as soon as I figure out how to import tables into this form...
kdyal 09-21-04, 01:05 PM	Here's what I'm thinking: Bladesinger as a Core Class HD:d6 Class Skills: Perform (Cha): Knowledge (Int): Move Silently (Dex): Hide (Dex): Balance (Dex): Tumble (Dex): Concentration (Con): Spellcraft (Int): Craft (Weaponsmith) (Int): Diplomacy (Cha): Listen (Wis): Spot (Wis): Search (Int) Skill Points: 4/level BAB: 1/1 with Favored Weapon, 1/2 with all others Saves: Fort poor, Reflex good, Will good Armor Proficiencies: Light, Medium Shield Proficiencies: None Weapon Proficiencies: All Simple, and one melee weapon Abilities 1. Favored Weapon, Canny Dodge 2. Spellcasting 3. Bonus Feat: Still Spell 4. Take 10 on Defensive Casting, Int bonus to AC 5. Evasion 6. Uncanny Dodge (cannot be caught flat-footed) 7. Bonus Feat: Improved Critical (favored weapon) 8. Overcome Spell Failure (5%), Specialization 9. Channel Spell 10. Bladesong 11. Overcome Spell Failure (10%) 12. Absolute Stillness 13. Store Spell 14. Overcome Spell Failure (15%) 15. Greater Bladesong 16. Improved Evasion, Greater Specialization 17. Overcome Spell Failure (20%) 18. Bladed Contingency 19. 20. Overcome Spell Failure (25%), Master Bladesong Favored Weapon: Upon character creation, the character chooses a single weapon to focus on. The most common are the longsword or Thinblade, but most melee weapons are acceptable (see weapon proficiencies above). A normally finessable weapon may be used as if the Bladesinger had the Weapon Finesse feat. And regardless of the weapon’s actual capacity, a Bladesinger’s favored weapon is considered to be magic at 5th level, silver at 10th level and adamantine at 15th level for bypassing damage reduction. Canny Dodge: Add one point of the Bladesinger's Intelligence bonus per level of Bladesinger to her AC as a Dodge bonus. This bonus does not apply when she is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dex bonus, nor can she use this bonus when wearing heavy armor or non-elven medium armor or using a shield. Spellcasting: The Bladesinger may learn and cast arcane spells. They use their Int score to determine the spell level allowed and any bonus spells. They learn spells as a Wizard. Specialization/Greater Specialization: The Bladesinger is considered a fighter with regards to the qualifications for these two feats at 8th and 16th levels respectively. Please note that this only applies to the Bladesinger's favored weapon. Channel Spell: The Bladesinger may cast any spell she knows through her favored weapon. This means that the Bladesinger casts the spell, which is then released her next strike. Some spells do not make sense to be channeled: DM’s discretion. Bladesong: When fighting with her favored weapon, the Bladesinger may choose a +1/3 levels attack bonus or dodge bonus, or +1/5 levels to both her attack and dodge. Absolute Stillness: When wielding her favored weapon, the Bladesinger’s spells are considered to be under the effect of the Still Spell metamagic feat, albeit without the typical increase in spell level. Store Spell: The Bladesinger may store up to her Bladesinger level/2 in spell levels in her favored weapon, without additional XP or material costs. The spell may then be used as a standard action and then is discharged. Greater Bladesong: The Bladesinger may choose to haste herself 1-round/3 levels of Bladesinger. Bladed Contingency: The Bladesinger may set a contingency for one of the spells stored in her favored weapon. Master Bladesong: The Bladesinger makes an additional attack/round at her highest bonus. This effect stacks with haste, so the extra partial action would include this attack as well. A Bladesinger casts uses her Intelligence to determine bonus spells and learns spells as a wizard. She must memorize her spells daily and casts as a wizard of 3/4 her level. Level Spells Per day 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 x x x x x x x x x 2 3 1 x x x x x x x 3 4 2 x x x x x x x 4 4 2 1 x x x x x x 5 4 2 1 x x x x x x 6 4 3 2 x x x x x x 7 4 3 2 1 x x x x x 8 4 3 3 2 x x x x x 9 4 3 3 2 x x x x x 10 4 4 3 2 1 x x x x 11 4 4 3 3 2 x x x x 12 4 4 4 3 2 1 x x x 13 4 4 4 3 2 1 x x x 14 4 4 4 3 3 2 x x x 15 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 x x 16 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 x x 17 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 x x 18 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 x 19 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 x 20 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 And I used a class generator I found at http://www.community3e.com (the only class generator I have found so far), which calls this balanced...
Lord Zeb 09-22-04, 10:18 PM	I like it! Probably could use a coupla tweaks, but I haven't been able to figure out what they would be. ;) I would soooo like to play this in a game... Good job! Zeb
Ithilorien 09-24-04, 08:49 PM	I think the favored weapon focus is dated. Give them normal BAB and proficiencies across the board, but restrict bladesong abilities to the chosen weapon. And even half-Bab with non chosen weapons doesn't make up for full BAB and better spellcasting than a bard.