Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Keenath 11-22-05, 06:23 PM	I've been getting more and more irritated with Wildshape for a while. The whole thing is just a cludge. It doesn't do any of the things you would naturally expect a druid to be able to do when he's turning into animals, and it doesn't even work properly in many situations. Polymorph only grants EX special attacks, not special qualities, and that's one of the issues. For example: Wildshape into a dog or a wolf. Do you get scent? Can you track by smell? Nope! But bizarrely, you still gain the Track feat, and the racial survival bonus. So the abilities that represent having a particularly keen nose, even for the animal kingdom, are kept, but you don't actually get the keen nose. Crazy! Wildshape into a porpoise. What's the one thing they're known for? I mean besides jumping through hoops -- it's echolocation. Blindsight. Do you get that? Hah! Okay, now how about the Cheetah. Known for running fast, right? Well, forget it. Sprint is a special quality. This form is useless, you might as well use a lion and get the whole pounce/rake routine. They're both available by the time you get wildshape. Speaking of large cats, notice that you don't gain low light vision when you turn into an animal. In fact, if you have LLV in your natural form, you actually LOSE it when you wildshape (as per Alter Self, you lose all racial SAs and SQs). An elven druid that turns into a panther, and his vision gets WORSE. Octopus is a popular form for aquatic druids. Guess what? Forget about ink clouds or jetting around, because they don't work. That second one is particularly stupid -- an octopus's jet is just as much a part of it as an eagle's wings, yet the druid can't use it. Wander into the realm of Plant forms with me. Now, I completely understand that this is dangerous territory. Plants tend to have powers that would break a game, like fast healing and regeneration. Animals never have such overpowered abilities, but there's just no reason to ever use Plant forms. They're far too weak if you lack the SQs, compared to animal forms of the same HD. Phantom Fungus? You aren't invisible. Tendriculous? You can eat people and paralyze them, but you aren't immune to mind effects. Treant? How weird is this -- you aren't vulnerable to fire, nor is your skin as hard as wood (damage reduction)! Shambler? Hah. If you want grapples, be a bear. There's a problem here, and I'm not sure I'm good enough to fix it. I will throw out a few suggestions, though. First: Druids get all the abilities of any ANIMAL form they take, SAs and SQs. Animals don't have any problematic SQs, nor any SU or SL abilities anyway. Second: Druids wildshaping into plant creatures gain EX Special Attacks and the Plant Traits special quality. (I'm not sure what to do with the rest. Should they gain EX SQs other than fast healing and regeneration? What about the Shambler's con-boost from electricity? And is immunity to an element considered EX or SU?) This boosts the power of the druid somewhat, but at the same time it encourages the Druid to use his wildshapes as tools instead of only weapons. In other words, it gives him a good reason to occasionally wildshape into an animal that ISN'T the biggest, toughest thing possible. However, I'll also include a druid nerf. I think this one is necessary even if you don't touch wildshape: Third: Natural Spell is not a general feat, but a Metamagic feat. Natural Spells take up a spell slot 1 higher than the spell's actual level. That makes "cast or wildshape" a choice, rather than a synergy (that is, it makes it very difficult to wildshape all day long for the ability scores). It also means the druid has to select particular spells to cast while 'shaped, rather than having his full list available, which makes it a planning thing. Right now, no druid is ever without Natural Spell. With this change, it's still a great feat, but not a practical requirement for the class. What do you guys (and girls, if you're out there) think? Can you see a possible broken combo in my plan?
Centauri 11-22-05, 06:51 PM	The whole thing is just a cludge. It doesn't do any of the things you would naturally expect a druid to be able to do when he's turning into animals, and it doesn't even work properly in many situations. I'm fine with Druids not turning into exactly functional copies of animals, and I'm find with them losing the Special Qualities of their base form. There might be some oddities associated with this, but hey, this is magic. If the elven druid can't cope with losing his low-light vision while in animal form, well, there's at least one small reason for him not to stay in that form for the entire day, and I'm happy with that. Phantom Fungus? You aren't invisible. Tendriculous? You can eat people and paralyze them, but you aren't immune to mind effects. Treant? How weird is this -- you aren't vulnerable to fire, nor is your skin as hard as wood (damage reduction)! That's because you've taken the form of a treant, but aren't actually a treant? However there's something about the shape that puts you more in tune with other trees, allowing you to animate them. Shambler? Hah. If you want grapples, be a bear. Well, a shambing mound druid still gets constrict. Isn't that worth something? First: Druids get all the abilities of any ANIMAL form they take, SAs and SQs. Animals don't have any problematic SQs, nor any SU or SL abilities anyway. Nah. Like I said, I can't feel sorry for them if they're not perfect copies. Wildshape only gives them a +10 bonus to disguise checks so how much like a given animal can they expect to become? Second: Druids wildshaping into plant creatures gain EX Special Attacks and the Plant Traits special quality. (I'm not sure what to do with the rest. Should they gain EX SQs other than fast healing and regeneration? What about the Shambler's con-boost from electricity? And is immunity to an element considered EX or SU?) If getting to wildshape into plants isn't on par with their other options, what's the big deal? I say leave it as is. This boosts the power of the druid somewhat, but at the same time it encourages the Druid to use his wildshapes as tools instead of only weapons. I'd rather he used his wildshapes ONLY as tools, leaving the weapons to the warriors, but that's not likely to happen. In other words, it gives him a good reason to occasionally wildshape into an animal that ISN'T the biggest, toughest thing possible. I don't see that he has that under your suggestions. Third: Natural Spell is not a general feat, but a Metamagic feat. Natural Spells take up a spell slot 1 higher than the spell's actual level. That makes "cast or wildshape" a choice, rather than a synergy (that is, it makes it very difficult to wildshape all day long for the ability scores). It also means the druid has to select particular spells to cast while 'shaped, rather than having his full list available, which makes it a planning thing. Right now, no druid is ever without Natural Spell. With this change, it's still a great feat, but not a practical requirement for the class. I'd be fine with that. If that turns out to be too extreme, you might say that they can always spontaneously cast Nature's Ally even if they burn a Natural spell in their base form or vice versa.
rampant 11-22-05, 08:29 PM	um druid already gives plat type abilities in plant wild shape, since it mimics a polymorph effect, and polymorph changes your type, you get plant type also if you eant animal SQs make a feat that lets them use them in the appropriate animal form
Savarast 11-22-05, 09:21 PM	How about you talk to your DM about your concerns? This may seem like a weak suggestion, but that is how we resolve CHB issues at my table. Being the DM, and being generous to people who think thier arguments out, my players can get most house rules that are logical and well thought out. The less I have to think about the mechanics, the more likely I will accept the alter in rule. Your statements would have been strong enough, and I would most likely change that aspect in the druid. But thats just me, many DM's say I am far too lenient.
Keenath 11-22-05, 11:56 PM	That's because you've taken the form of a treant, but aren't actually a treant? However there's something about the shape that puts you more in tune with other trees, allowing you to animate them.You obviously missed the fact that animating trees is supernatural, and thus not granted by polymorph or wildshape. Well, a shambing mound druid still gets constrict. Isn't that worth something?Not really. By the time you can turn into one, it was four levels ago that you got the Giant Octopus form, with 9 natural weapons (EIGHT primary!) and a better constrict attack. If you want a terrestrial creature, level 12 (when you can Plant wildshape) unlocks the Dire Bear, with massively better stats than a shambler (notably +10 str) and a grapple check of +23 (compared to the shambler's +15). While grappled, the bear can maul with his claw/claw/bite routine for much more damage than the two-slams-and-a-constrict (especially considering that the higher strength translates to a better hit chance). If getting to wildshape into plants isn't on par with their other options, what's the big deal? I say leave it as is.Because it's worthless. Why give somebody an ability that doesn't actually grant them anything? None of the plant creatures are worth taking, compared to animal forms you could take at the same level. I'd rather he used his wildshapes ONLY as tools, leaving the weapons to the warriors, but that's not likely to happen. I don't see that he has that under your suggestions.Most of the animal forms' special qualities are sensory powers or special combat abilities. Why be a boar when you can be a bear? Why ever wildshape into anything that has less HD than your maximum? Well, THIS is why! Because a cheetah is better for chasing down a fleeing foe; because a porpoise will let you see through muddy water; because a wolf is better at tracking than any other creature; because you want to use the creature's special abilities rather than judging usefulness based on claw/claw/bite and high stats! Have you ever seen a druid wildshape into anything other than bears, sharks, and eagles? Maybe tigers or dires from time to time. Why would they ever choose to be less than the most fearsome combatant possible? Adding SQs gives an incentive to use some of those neglected animal forms because they represent unique abilities that no other form grants. Wildshape into a bat to gain blindsight -- there is NO other reason to be a bat! That's what I'm talking about -- using wildshape a as a tool to overcome difficulties instead of always picking the largest predator around.
Keenath 11-23-05, 12:05 AM	um druid already gives plat type abilities in plant wild shape, since it mimics a polymorph effect, and polymorph changes your type, you get plant typeHaving your type changed does not grant you the traits of that type; the polymorph spell does not specifically say you DO gain the traits of your new type, so you don't. It does specifically say you gain none of the SQs, however, and Plant Traits (or Dragon Traits, or Elemental Traits, or Undead Traits...) is clearly on the SQ line, and thus not gained.
Keenath 11-23-05, 12:13 AM	How about you talk to your DM about your concerns?Not very helpful. I'm not asking my DM, nor did I mention any conflict with my DM. I'm asking the opinion of this message board community. As it happens, in this case, I'm going to BE the DM in the next game, and I'm considering a change. I want opinions on that change and suggestions that may help balance it. It's a first test to see if I've left any gaping holes in the plan. I'm just throwing out an idea to see what people think of it.
Krunk Ironmaw 11-23-05, 12:35 AM	Having your type changed does not grant you the traits of that type; the polymorph spell does not specifically say you DO gain the traits of your new type, so you don't. It does specifically say you gain none of the SQs, however, and Plant Traits (or Dragon Traits, or Elemental Traits, or Undead Traits...) is clearly on the SQ line, and thus not gained. The polymorph spell states you gain the new type and subtype. Why would you gain the type or subtype if not to gain the benefits and penalties? The Polymorph spell states that you do not gain anything except the extraordinary abilities of the FORM, not type or subtype. Come on guy, I am a newb and I understand this. p.s. I played a druid at the last GenCon and the DM had no problem with my use of wildshaping into a plant to stave off some very powerful sleep inducing magic. Maybe he didnt know the rules but I am pretty sure DMs working GenCon know their shiat.
Pliskit 11-23-05, 02:41 AM	On the whole I completely agree with Keenath on this post. Wildshaping is needlessly complicated, way too powerful in battle and not nearly powerful enough outside. Wildshaping should be more of a roleplaying factor instead of just another frontline fighter type. As a nerf to natural spell however I propose to turn back the clock to 3.0 rules where you COULD use it to mimick vocals and somatics (understandable) but could NOT emulate using components, which IS completely ridiculous if you think about it: they´ve melted with your new body! This drastically deminishes the number of spells you can use while wildshaped and in my opinion, makes it more believable to play. EDIT: Yesterday, in another threat, I agreed with Keenath on the fact that while plantshaping, a druid wouldnt gain the plant traits because I found a quote by Skip Williams actually saying you DON`T gain the plant traits. This was however a misquote from another paragraph in the same article. Actually this article (Polymorphing part IV (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a) ) goes over Wildshaping much in the same way the PHB does: shortly and leaving much to the imagination. In his third article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a) on Polymorphing however Skip explicitly states that polymorphing DOES give you the traits of the type and subtype you change into, and even goes on to explain what those traits are. Under this new light I think that no matter if the plant traits are put under SQ´s in the MM, you WILL get them.
Cadfan 11-23-05, 03:07 AM	The problem is that, while it may be a legitimate complaint that wild shape is too much of a combat-power ability and not enough of a roleplay ability, giving wild shape more bonuses will not reduce the combat-power aspect in any way whatsoever. If I had my way about it, I'd make wildshape more like a warlock's invocations. You could select new shapes every so often, with the power of the shapes scaling as you go up in levels. Then, instead of basing what you could wildshape into on its HD, the designers, when making the list of options, could set it according to the creature's CR, plus some intelligent adjudication of how powerful the animal would be for the PC, and then, since special abilities and qualities were factored into the list of animals available at a particular level, they could be usable by the PC. Also, with a limited number of forms available, time looking things up in books would be minimized, and some of the munchkinning could be reduced. A player who always took the best possible combat form for his level would have tons of useless animal forms when he reached higher levels. A player who picked forms with useful out of combat abilities (like scent), would still find those useful. Anyways, as long as the animal forms available depends on HD instead of CR, I think you're going to find that any solution you work out to the lack of utility forms is just going to make things worse when the players apply your rules to combat special abilities.
rampant 11-23-05, 03:33 AM	almost no animals have combat SQ's they are almost exclusively run away/utility options that could be done better with a spell except maybe cheetah running the ep away hell my dm never figured that part out, never decided to tell him
Pliskit 11-23-05, 05:47 AM	The problem is that, while it may be a legitimate complaint that wild shape is too much of a combat-power ability and not enough of a roleplay ability, giving wild shape more bonuses will not reduce the combat-power aspect in any way whatsoever. It WILL however if you make casting in wildshape harder, following either Keenaths suggestion to make natural casting a metamagic feat or mine to restrict natural casting to no-component spells (although the way around this is taking an extra feat of course...) If I had my way about it, I'd make wildshape more like a warlock's invocations. You could select new shapes every so often, with the power of the shapes scaling as you go up in levels. That could work. You could easily take the animal companion progression and apply that to your favorite wild forms. Anyways, as long as the animal forms available depends on HD instead of CR, I think you're going to find that any solution you work out to the lack of utility forms is just going to make things worse when the players apply your rules to combat special abilities. Again, I think this would be negated by making it harder to cast spells in wild form. The druid would become either a caster or a fighter, not both at the same time. almost no animals have combat SQ's they are almost exclusively run away/utility options that could be done better with a spell except maybe cheetah running the ep away Plants however do have very powerful SQ's, and I'm very hesitant to make different sets of rules for wildshaping into diferent creature types. IF you're going to allow SQ's, do it for all possible wild forms but have a huge backdraw to compensate.
Keenath 11-23-05, 09:42 AM	In his third article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a) on Polymorphing however Skip explicitly states that polymorphing DOES give you the traits of the type and subtype you change into, and even goes on to explain what those traits are. Under this new light I think that no matter if the plant traits are put under SQ´s in the MM, you WILL get them.Hm. So he does. All right, I withdraw that part of my complaint. I still think Wildshape should get you things like DR or elemental resistance/vulnerability, though perhaps not immunity. The problem is that, while it may be a legitimate complaint that wild shape is too much of a combat-power ability and not enough of a roleplay ability, giving wild shape more bonuses will not reduce the combat-power aspect in any way whatsoever.Mmm, not directly, no. But if you've spent two wildshapes today on getting different sensory abilities, that's two fewer combats where you can turn into a bear. It IS a reduction in combat power because there are daily WS uses that you just aren't using! Anyways, as long as the animal forms available depends on HD instead of CR, I think you're going to find that any solution you work out to the lack of utility forms is just going to make things worse when the players apply your rules to combat special abilities.You already get EX special attacks, so they aren't even at issue. How many attack-based animal SQs are there? Maybe the cheetah's sprint, when used to charge a target, and that's about it. However, I tend to agree with your point -- the wildshape system should probably be an extremely limited shapechanging ability, with forms selected from an explicit list, granting all the abilities of the creature with certain SQs called out as specifically not operating (eg regeneration). However, that's a pretty major change to the way the ability works. While it might be the best solution in the end, I'm not sure I'm ready to go quite that far. almost no animals have combat SQ's they are almost exclusively run away/utility options that could be done better with a spell except maybe cheetah running the ep awayI'm a little lost there. What spell grants you scent? What spell gives you blindsight underwater, or blindsense in the air? Most of the SQs relate to senses rather than either fighting or running. It WILL however if you make casting in wildshape harder, following either Keenaths suggestion to make natural casting a metamagic feat... Again, I think this would be negated by making it harder to cast spells in wild form. The druid would become either a caster or a fighter, not both at the same time.Right. The issue I'm most aware of is not strictly the power of a bear, but the power of a bear combined with tossing around Enlarge Animals and FlameStrikes at will, and the stealth benefits of casting a spell with birdsong instead of Words of Power cannot be overstated! Who would suspect that cute little cat of being the source of Call Lightning? (And recall that you retain your HD and HP totals when polymorphed -- a druid makes a damn tough cat!) Pushing that up to a metamagic means first that he's paying for the benefit, and more importantly, he has to specifically choose to prepare a spell as Natural at the beginning of the day. That means it's an obvious choice for Enlarge Animal and Magic Fang, but maybe not so much for Entangle. It strictly limits the druid's wildshaped casting, and I think that does a lot to bring the druid back down to the level of everyone else. The class as written is practically broken by a single feat! That could work. You could easily take the animal companion progression and apply that to your favorite wild forms.Ehh... I dunno if I like that suggestion. You already have the HP of your normal form. If you were going to impliment a limited WildShape list (perhaps one form known per druid level?), I'd simply allow that you can become a HD-advanced version of the creature, if your wildshape is of a level to handle the upgraded creature. However, this might be a discussion best left to another thread -- one specifically made to discuss this idea for a WS replacement. Plants however do have very powerful SQ's, and I'm very hesitant to make different sets of rules for wildshaping into diferent creature types. IF you're going to allow SQ's, do it for all possible wild forms but have a huge backdraw to compensate.I don't think it's a huge problem to have different sets of rules. We already have that distinction between Elemental and normal wildshapes; elementals get all their SQs and everything, even supernatural abilities. Really, the only abilities that are a big problem are the ones that involve HP increases, because of Wildshape's unlimited duration. Regen and Fast Healing in particular are problematic, granting near-unlimited HP to the druid. The Shambler's con-from-lightning thing is a problem too, but less so (though I can SO see people turning into one and eating a lightning bolt, then turning back into a human and expecting the CON to stick around). Frankly, though, since plant wildshaping apparently DOES give you Plant Traits, I won't complain too much if the plant SQs are just all disallowed. I'd rather have Treants with DR and so on, but that may not be feasable without an explicit form-list (or simply DM discussion).
Pliskit 11-23-05, 10:04 AM	Mmm, not directly, no. But if you've spent two wildshapes today on getting different sensory abilities, that's two fewer combats where you can turn into a bear. It IS a reduction in combat power because there are daily WS uses that you just aren't using!...and druid vestments and the Extra Wildshape Feat would come in handy there of course :) I don't think the limited amount of wildshapes is realy an issue for a well-equiped druid, a bit depending on how many combat-encounters a day the character runs into. However, I tend to agree with your point -- the wildshape system should probably be an extremely limited shapechanging ability, with forms selected from an explicit list, granting all the abilities of the creature with certain SQs called out as specifically not operating (eg regeneration). However, that's a pretty major change to the way the ability works. While it might be the best solution in the end, I'm not sure I'm ready to go quite that far. Agreed, I was a little hesitant there as well. I'm a little lost there. What spell grants you scent? What spell gives you blindsight underwater, or blindsense in the air? It's a spell from Complete Adventurer if I remember correctly, goes by the name of Embrace the Wild or so. I would have to look that up when at home. I don't think it's a huge problem to have different sets of rules. We already have that distinction between Elemental and normal wildshapes; elementals get all their SQs and everything, even supernatural abilities.You're right, that might not be overcomplicating it. So basically what we have now is: -Okay on SQ's for animal type creatures -Nerf on natural spell feat.. anything else?
Jack Greylock 11-23-05, 01:37 PM	By making these changes you do pretty much nerf the Master Of Many Forms. Personally If you want to make these changes I think for balance reasons you should limit this to a class feature not reachable till at least 16th level.
Keenath 11-23-05, 03:14 PM	By making these changes you do pretty much nerf the Master Of Many Forms. Personally If you want to make these changes I think for balance reasons you should limit this to a class feature not reachable till at least 16th level. I don't think that's really an issue. By the time she gets this, a MoMF is already able to take the form of any humanoid, giant, monstrous humanoid, fey, vermin, aberration, or plant. Considering the EX SQs of those types, granting the Animal SQs earlier doesn't nerf this class in any way whatsoever. I mean, the best you'll be picking up with animal SQs is scent, blindsight, or a speed booster (octopus or cheetah). A MOMF can reasonably be picking up some great DR, energy resistance/immunity... and that doesn't even consider regeneration and fast healing! I don't think a MoMF would be terribly upset to get Scent a little earlier than sixteenth level.
MindWandererB 11-23-05, 05:49 PM	Most of your complains (aside from Natural Spell) can be fixed with a simple solution, one which I've played with since 1e: just include perceptual abilities (low light vision, darkvision, blindsense, blindsight, scent) to the list of "physical qualities." This applies to all abilities based on alter self. BTW, octopi do indeed get their water-jet ability. It falls under "mundane movement capabilities" although not explicitly so. And I would personally count a treant's wooden composition as a "gross physical quality," granting you its DR and fire vulnerability. But that's just me, and it's probably a bit unbalanced. But oh well. Nerfing Natural Spell in some way definitely sounds like a good idea.
Keenath 11-23-05, 06:11 PM	BTW, octopi do indeed get their water-jet ability. It falls under "mundane movement capabilities" although not explicitly so.Unfortunately, Jet and Sprint are both extraordinary movement capabilities, not mundane. The mundane modes are ground speed, fly speed, swim speed, and climb speed.
Ander Spectacular 11-23-05, 09:31 PM	You would get low light vision when turning into an animal because that is part of the animal type. Other than that, the perception stuff is a good idea. -AS-