Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Molot 09-02-05, 08:49 AM	Blood Sorcerer v0.4 Sorcerer's are underpowered. No, they are just terribly designed. How ofthen do we hear that? So, here is my play about Sorcerer. Hit Die: d6 Sorcerers are not so fragile as Wizards. Blood Sorcerers in the world Race: Any race can give Blood Sorcerers, but only the individuals with drop of powerfull blood, like elemental or draconic, can be one. Alignment: Usually chaotic, since their magic follows emotions, not laws. But all alignments are possible. Class Skills: Blood Sorcerer's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge(Arcane) (Int), Proffesion (Int), Sence Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Cha), Use Magic Device (Cha) Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier. Level BAB Fort Ref Will Feature ---------------------------------------- 1 +0 +0 +0 +2 Heritage 2 +1 +0 +0 +3 3 +1 +1 +1 +3 4 +2 +1 +1 +4 5 +2 +1 +1 +4 Bonus Feat 6 +3 +2 +2 +5 7 +3 +2 +2 +5 8 +4 +2 +2 +6 9 +4 +3 +3 +6 10 +5 +3 +3 +7 Bonus Feat 11 +5 +3 +3 +7 12 +6 +4 +4 +8 13 +6 +4 +4 +8 14 +7 +4 +4 +9 15 +7 +5 +5 +9 Bonus Feat 16 +8 +5 +5 +10 17 +8 +5 +5 +10 18 +9 +6 +6 +11 19 +9 +6 +6 +11 20 +10 +6 +6 +12 Bonus Feat Class Features: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Blood Sorcerers are profienced with all simple weapons. Heritage: Blood Sorcerer gets one heritage or bloodline feat. He may select any one he want, even if it can normally be taken only at first level (assume that his blood awakened with his powers). For each heritage, specify energy type associated. Basicaly it depends from element type for elemental heritage or immunities of the creature that gave his blood to Blood Sorcerer (if many - select one, if in doubt - DM decides). This energy becomes your favoured energy. Known Heritage & Bloodline feats that can be taken with this ability: Draconic Heritage - Select kind of a dragon. His immunities determines your favoured energy. Fire Heritage - Fire Water Heritage - Cold Air Heritage - Air Earth Heritage - Acid Celestial Heritage - Choose one celestial, his immunities determines your favoured energy. In Molot's setting (Liereil) it will be Positive Fiendish Heritage - Choose one fiend, his immunities determines your favoured energy. In Molot's setting (Liereil) it will be Negative Axiomatic Heritage - This one does not fit, but it would be nice to make it work Anarchic Heritage - This one does not fit, but it would be nice to make it work Shadow Heritage - This one does not fit, but it would be nice to make it work Bloodline of Fire (from Forgotten Realms) - Fire is your favoured energy. Bloodline of Water (create by analogy to Bloodline of Fire) - Cold Bloodline of Air (create by analogy to Bloodline of Fire) - Electric Bloodline of Earth (create by analogy to Bloodline of Fire) - Acid Bonus feats: Heritage-related feats (Draconic, for example), Metamagic related to his energy (Energy Substitution, Energy Admixture and similar), Leadership, Social feats (DM approval, I cannot make complete list now :D) Here are the lists of feats that can be taken with this ability: Heritage-related feats Improved Elemental Heritage Improved Outer Planar Heritage Draconic Breath Fiendish Breath Draconic Claw Fiendish Claw Earth Claw Draconic Flight Air Flight Celestial Flight Fiendish Flight Water Swim - As Flight ones, but grants sweam peed and breath under water Earth Dig - As Flight ones, but character can move throught rock and on't need to breath while doing this. Fire Step - As Flight, but character gains Fire resistance equal to used spell for that time and can "swim" or "fly" throught normal flames. Draconic Legacy Elemental Legacy - As Draconic one, but select 3 spell-like abilities of proper half-elemental. Outer Planar Legacy - As Draconic one, but select 3 spell-like abilities of proper half-celestial, half-fiend and so on. Draconic Power Elemental Power Outer Planar Power Draconic Presence Outer Planar Presence Draconic Resistance Elemental Resistance Outer Planar Resistance Draconic Skin Earth Skin Fiendish Skin The unofficial feats works exactly as Draconic ones (except as noted above). Accept both proper "Bloodline of" and "Heritage" feats as requirement for them. Energy-related metamagic feats Energy Substitution (with favoured energy only) Energy Admixture (with favoured energy only) Lord of the Uttercold (only if has cold or negative as favoured energy Transdimmensional Spell (only if has outer planar heritage) Any other energy-related metamagic from books Molot does not have acce s to. Spell like feats Communicator Insightfull Prestidigitator - use Prestidigitation as spell-like ability at will Necropolis Born (only if has fiendish heritage) Night Haunt (only if has shadow heritage) Soul of the North (only if have cold as favoured energy) Spell Hand Spells: Blood Sorcerer casts arcane spells. They casts them spontaneously, just as usuall Sorcerer do. Blood Sorcerer's spell list is the same as standard Sor/Wiz spell list, except that spells of casting time longer than one round are not on that list. Each time they gain new spells due to level up, he may select spells from his spell list. If their heritage is connected to an energy type, they can choose to permanently swap energy of known spell into his own (thus knowing Coldball or Acid Hands). They cannot, however, know nor use spells of opposed energy type. Blood Sorcerer does not need material components. If they have no cost or costs less than 25 gp, simply ignore them. If they do have, Blood Sorcerer pays 1/25 of their price in XP. Metamagic changes casting time as usuall. However metamagic feats related to his energy (basicaly the ones he can take as a bonus feats) does not changes the time. Level Spells Known/Spells Per Day 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 4/6 1/2 2 4/6 1/3 3 5/6 2/4 1/2 4 5/6 2/5 1/3 5 6/6 3/6 2/4 1/2 6 6/6 3/6 2/5 1/3 7 7/6 4/6 3/6 2/4 1/2 8 7/6 4/6 3/6 2/5 1/3 9 8/6 5/6 4/6 3/6 2/4 1/2 10 8/6 5/6 4/6 3/6 2/5 1/3 11 9/6 5/6 5/6 4/6 3/6 2/4 1/2 12 9/6 5/6 5/6 4/6 3/6 2/5 1/3 13 9/6 5/6 5/6 4/6 4/6 3/6 2/4 1/2 14 9/6 5/6 5/6 4/6 4/6 3/6 2/5 1/3 15 9/6 5/6 5/6 4/6 4/6 4/6 3/6 2/4 1/2 16 9/6 5/6 5/6 4/6 4/6 4/6 3/6 2/5 1/3 17 9/6 5/6 5/6 4/6 4/6 4/6 3/6 3/6 2/4 1/2 18 9/6 5/6 5/6 4/6 4/6 4/6 3/6 3/6 2/5 1/3 19 9/6 5/6 5/6 4/6 4/6 4/6 3/6 3/6 3/6 2/4 20 9/6 5/6 5/6 4/6 4/6 4/6 3/6 3/6 3/6 3/5 Ok, what now? :]
cowdragon 09-02-05, 09:31 AM	Can't wait Molot. Sounds good so far. The Cowdragon :mage:
Maraxus 09-02-05, 10:33 AM	Sounds good at first look, but suddenly ... oh, my, this is overpowered. Are you a dm or player? @Player: Bwahaha, if you have a sane dm, he will never allow that. @dm: Carfully, if your player is smart, he will exploid this to a point where the wizard will chance his character in frustation. Problem: "Spells per day and spells known - I'll post that later, but there will not be a lag in gaining new levels." Sorry, but this is necessary. The d6 hit die is accepable, the skills are to much - but not much. The energy substitution, eshew materials, Bonus feats and Heritage or Bloodline are unnecessary, and all together too much.
Molot 09-02-05, 04:45 PM	Sounds good at first look, but suddenly ... oh, my, this is overpowered. Are you a dm or player?If counting time spent on those purposes, I'm 80% DM, 20% Player. @Player: Bwahaha, if you have a sane dm, he will never allow that.I don't know any sane DM and hardly any sane player :D @dm: Carfully, if your player is smart, he will exploid this to a point where the wizard will chance his character in frustation.My sorcerer will get only minor bonus in casting (why he should have lag in casting?...), and he will not get Item Creation as bonus feats. Changes are only realisation & extenion of "dragon blood" and "face of the party" ideas. Aslo, I'm thinking about giveing him a bit less spells. He will have metamagic time incrase as well. Problem: "Spells per day and spells known - I'll post that later, but there will not be a lag in gaining new levels."I idn't have a time to format table. I'm doing it right now, so plz wait few minutes ;) The d6 hit die is accepable, the skills are to much - but not much.I'll drop it to 4+Int. The energy substitution,What energy substitution?! He only can select to know "Coldball" instead of "Fireball". He cannot decide what energy type he uses while casting. eshew materials, makes him to burn XP while Wizard uses gold. So he either will not know that spells at all or will think twice before cast them. Bonus feats and Heritage or Bloodline are unnecessary,Bonus feats only from small range. No item creation at first... Metamagic makes him to cast their spells longer, so it is not so valuable for them... and all together too much.No familiar, most of "gifts" are not as usable as you've described or have penalities... Yes, if you consider PHB Sorcerer well balanced and designed, you will not consider this one Ok...
Molot 09-02-05, 07:03 PM	For balance purposes - please ignore dorm Sorcerer, as my never was meant to be "compatible" :] Comparing him to Favoured Soul... He gets "combat-stronger" spells, but lesser dice, can't cast in armor, less bonus feats (translateing energy resistance to a feat equivalent), no wings, weaker saves, weaker BAB... In my opinion it's balanced. Comparing to a Wizard... The same number of bonus feats, but no item creation, so he will not use them so easily to buff his casting. Metamagic makes his casting longer - big penality. Lesser number of spells he may choose from, so it's hard to make him versalite. No familiar, so no "second pair of hands" nor other bonuses Wizard can get. Spontaneous casting - yeah, benefit, but he has little spells to choose from. Higer dice - true, but if Sorcerer know mostly damage-dealing spells he will need it just to survive. If he is using utility spells, even more. And if he knows defending spells, he is hardly usefull for the party. Wizard can afford to know all the types. And yes, this thing is based on Monte Cook's variant sorcerer...
Maraxus 09-02-05, 08:31 PM	... Comparing to a Wizard... The same number of bonus feats, but no item creation, so he will not use them so easily to buff his casting. Metamagic makes his casting longer - big penality. Lesser number of spells he may choose from, so it's hard to make him versalite. No familiar, so no "second pair of hands" nor other bonuses Wizard can get. Spontaneous casting - yeah, benefit, but he has little spells to choose from. Higer dice - true, but if Sorcerer know mostly damage-dealing spells he will need it just to survive. If he is using utility spells, even more. And if he knows defending spells, he is hardly usefull for the party. Wizard can afford to know all the types. ... That the wizard has more spells, was named 3 times, we have to subtract this twice. :) Spontaneous casting is much more valuable then you think. Also the fact, that you can aply metamagic on the fly is much more powerful then the drawback of the longer casting time. However, looking at your version above (won't you name it v0.2 now? ;)): Okay, 0 spells per day means about 1 with bonus spells, that is not as much as I had feared. 4 skill points is good, I think he should have this, too. Feats: Still, a sorcerer takes metamagic feats anyway so this is not much restriction. Overall: This should probably work, as long as the sorcerer is the only arcane caster, or combined with a munched out wizard(-specialist). In direct comparison to a wizard, this one still looks to good for me. I would prefere it anytime (on the other hand, I prefer the standard sorcerer over the wizard most of the time, to :))
Molot 09-03-05, 05:52 AM	That the wizard has more spells, was named 3 times, we have to subtract this twice. :) Spontaneous casting is much more valuable then you think. Also the fact, that you can aply metamagic on the fly is much more powerful then the drawback of the longer casting time. However, looking at your version above (won't you name it v0.2 now? ;)): Okay, 0 spells per day means about 1 with bonus spells, that is not as much as I had feared. 4 skill points is good, I think he should have this, too. Feats: Still, a sorcerer takes metamagic feats anyway so this is not much restriction. Overall: This should probably work, as long as the sorcerer is the only arcane caster, or combined with a munched out wizard(-specialist). In direct comparison to a wizard, this one still looks to good for me. I would prefere it anytime (on the other hand, I prefer the standard sorcerer over the wizard most of the time, to :)) Ok... I'll remove metamagic from bonus spells (leaving only energy tree for his choosen energy). Thus, he will be able to take only few of them... Wisely projected Wizard (feats and/or PrC) can spontaneously change prepared spell or empty spell slot into selected combat spells. So he is able to benefit from knowledge of all utility spells and still be "spontaneously ready" to combat. With sudden metamagic, Wizard can be able to spontaneously apply quicken, empower or just anything without incraseing slot used. So why not quickened 9'th level (sic!) spells? Neither my nor official sorcerer will ever be able to do it. So spontaneous metemegic works different for both classes, but it does work for both classes.
Molot 09-03-05, 05:36 PM	I wonder... should he have 0 or 1 spells / day on levels he has 0 now?..
cowdragon 09-03-05, 09:52 PM	I think it looks pretty good. I'd definetly get the feat list written. As far as the class levels with "0", I'd say no new spells known, but you can metamagic spells into the slot or just cast a lower level spell into the higher level slot. Otherwise it would take a complete reworking of the class and has a good chance of overpowering it. One thing I've really come to like about the sorcerer (but alot of people think I'm nuts for) is the high number of spells per day. They don't really need to know more, but I love being able to do it over and over again. I like the flavor of the power coming from the blood. The Cowdragon :mage:
Molot 09-04-05, 05:36 AM	I think it looks pretty good. I'd definetly get the feat list written. As far as the class levels with "0", I'd say no new spells known, but you can metamagic spells into the slot or just cast a lower level spell into the higher level slot.I'll left spell known on that level. It changes nothing if character has not enought Cha to actually cast that spell, so effectively changes nothing on higer levels. It powers up this class a bit at lower levels and make it possible to qualify for PrCs without a lag... On higer levels hardly anyone will have high enought Cha to get them... Otherwise it would take a complete reworking of the class and has a good chance of overpowering it.[QUOTE=cowdragon]One spell known, only bonus spell slots (so 1, maybe 2 if someone is lucky). At this time Wizard has infinite number of (ossible) spells known and 2-3 base cells for them + bonus spells just like a Blood Sorcerer does, so still is much more powerfull about spells from that level. [QUOTE=cowdragon]One thing I've really come to like about the sorcerer (but alot of people think I'm nuts for) is the high number of spells per day. They don't really need to know more, but I love being able to do it over and over again.Blood Sorcerer does not know more spells (like Monte Cook's do, for example). And I don't want to change number of spells known. Aslo, changes at spells per day are minimal. I like the flavor of the power coming from the blood.It seems that it was meant to be flavor of the orginal Sorcerer, but somehow they failed to do it :D Ok, so I'm starting to write list of feats...
Kurama Youko 09-04-05, 09:00 AM	i think you have to many charisma based skills, even the wizard only had what 4 int based skills, knowledge, craft, spellcraft and i think im missing one oh well. Bluff, should negate the need to have intimidate, i mean if your welling to lie then your lying your way out of a situation or to extract info you can't just change it up and say okay do as i say or i'll blow you away with my pinky finger, rule wise it doesnt work like that. So either have it keep bluff and drop intimidate or vice versa. Use Magic Device, I think you should drop this, the sorcerer already has access to any arcane spell in the universe so long as he can either buy a scroll of it or select it as a spell known, unless your trying to make him be a cleric at the same time I don't think this is nessecary, I once did this with a feat to make it a class skill but in retrospect it was only to use wands of cure light, something that really could have been done so long as you asked the cleric. Diplomacy similiar to Bluff in away, a Paladin doesnt have both Bluff and Diplomacy, or Intimidate and Diplomacy, you can't be both to quote a song "Cruel and Kind." I think if you keep Bluff or Intimidate you should drop Diplomacy or if you keep Bluff keep Diplomacy. Isnt he missing a 6th lv spell slot per day, at 20th lv a sorcerer has 6 spells slots per spell lv. Other than that I don't have much more to say.
Molot 09-04-05, 02:16 PM	I think you have to many charisma based skills, even the wizard only had what 4 int based skills, knowledge, craft, spellcraft and i think im missing one oh well.Knowledge is actually group of skills. Large group of very usefull skills, actually Bluff, should negate the need to have intimidate, i mean if your welling to lie then your lying your way out of a situation or to extract info you can't just change it up and say okay do as i say or i'll blow you away with my pinky finger, rule wise it doesnt work like that. So either have it keep bluff and drop intimidate or vice versa. Diplomacy similiar to Bluff in away, a Paladin doesnt have both Bluff and Diplomacy, or Intimidate and Diplomacy, you can't be both to quote a song "Cruel and Kind." I think if you keep Bluff or Intimidate you should drop Diplomacy or if you keep Bluff keep Diplomacy. It's more a character concept than a class thing in my opinion... One shouldn't need all 3, but I don't want to be the judge here. Aslo, Blood Sorcerer will probably be short on skill points anyway, and that will prevent from buying to many. Example of using Bluff and Intimidate: I will kill you if you won't tell me (intimidate). I can just disintegrate you (bluff) Diplomacy+Intimidate - look on USA :P Diplomacy+Bluff - looking on real world, near all goverments it usually works together :] Use Magic Device, I think you should drop this, the sorcerer already has access to any arcane spell in the universe so long as he can either buy a scroll of it or select it as a spell known, unless your trying to make him be a cleric at the same time I don't think this is nessecary, I once did this with a feat to make it a class skill but in retrospect it was only to use wands of cure light, something that really could have been done so long as you asked the cleric.This is mostly for fun :] And I'll rather cut Blood Sorcerer's spell list than remove it. Somehow "It has just blow in my hands, sorry" feets my idea of this class :) better than long time rituals. Isnt he missing a 6th lv spell slot per day, at 20th lv a sorcerer has 6 spells slots per spell lv.I know, I know, but it was not accident. On spell levels 2-8 it goes 0-3-4-5. Level 1 is obviously different, but why level 9 should? :D Other than that I don't have much more to say.Thanx for input.
Molot 01-06-06, 07:43 AM	Lag in casting now removed completly.
Maraxus 01-06-06, 08:52 AM	Hey, I have posted in this thread... ...okay, it could still work. I don't know very much of the feats, he can choose from, but it looks okay. Definitly, the earlier 2nd and 3rd level spells help, where even I say, that the sorcerer is to weak, the feats give him some abilities on the high levels, that should give him more options without overpowering him.
Molot 01-09-06, 03:34 PM	After playtests at 6 and 16 levels, both in battle and social situations: Warmage is still best blaster. Wizard is better in calm spell-use situations, like opening / activateing complex magical mechanisms or looking for answers. Blood Sorcerer is best at social situations. After recent tweaks may stay in battle as long as Wizard with scrolls (like all Wizzies I ever seen), but both stay shorter than Warmage. Encounters taken from my campaign, designed without thinking about playtesting issues, so not designed under any specific class. Can anyone playtest this again? I would just love to hear how does it works... I'm not sure if I didn't overdo it now. My tests said I didn't, but anyway, one set of tests is not enought.