Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dantedarkstar 12-05-03, 08:02 AM	This class was created with inspiration of >this< (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=137596&perpage=30&pagenumber=1) and is just an alternative (too different to be considered advice for that class) So, here it goes: Blue Mage Blue Mages, sometimes also referred to as Monster Mages or Mimics, are very unique profession. They learn to understand spell-like abilties of others, to use them as thier own, exploiting thier force of personality, much like sorcerers do. But to fully understand all those abilities, they must experience them themselves, thus forcing them into endless journeys across the world in search of abilities to learn. Thier dangerous job makes them quite tough warriors, able to fend for themselves when needed, and when thier abilities are not enough, or not developed enough yet. They are similiar to sorcerers, but instead of developing thier own powers, they attempt to make powers of other beings thier own. Game Information: Hit die: d8 Base Attack Bonus: 3/4 (as cleric) Saving Throws: Good Fort and Will, Poor Ref Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (x4 at 1st level) Class Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (all) (Int), Knowledge (all) (Int), Profession (all) (Wis) Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Blue mages are proficient with all simple weapons, all armors and shields (except Tower Shield). Blue Magic: Blue Mage can learn spell-like abilities of other beings. Whenever Blue Mage directly experiences any Spell-Like abillity, he may attempt to learn it. Any interaction with spell-like ability effect counts as "experiencing" provided Blue Mage can at least discern effects of this ability. To learn any ability, Blue Mage must succeed at Knowledge skill check DC 15+spell-like ability level. The knowledge depends on the monster that used it. For example, if learning spell-like ability from dragon, Knowledge (Arcana) is used, while when learning spell-like ability from devil, Knowlede (The Planes) is used. See Knowledge skill description to find out what creatures fall into which knowledge skills. Exceptions are spell-like abilities granted by classes. If the class is arcane spellcasting class (or if it's obviously arcane in some other fashion), Knowledge (Arcana) is used. If the class is divine spellcasting class (or if it's obviously divine in some other fashion), Knowledge (Religion) is used. If the class is neither arcane nor divine, use knowledge associated with race of the creature. If blue mage succesfully passes this check, he can temporarily learn the spell-like ability, provided he is able to learn spell-like abilities of that level. Learning ability is full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. The process lasts until beginning of blue mage next action. If during learning, he is distracted, he must succeed at Concentration check as if he was casting spell of the same level as spell-like ability he learns. Blue mage may temporarily learn only one spell-like ability at a time. He may attempt to learn another one, but he forfeits currently learned by doing so (and if that learning attempt fails, he is left without any temporarily learned abilities). When Blue Mage regains his spell-like abilities per day, he may choose to learn temporarily learned ability permanently. This requires no additional time. He cannot exceed spell-like abilites known at each level, but may replace currently known ability with the new one. He may use higher-level allowance of spell-like abilities known to learn lower-level ability if he wishes, but that doesn't change level of the ability. Blue Mage cannot learn abilites from summoned creatures (althrough he can normally learn from called creatures). If spell level for given spell-like ability is not determined (as for all bardic music, paladin's mount and like), Blue Mage cannot learn it. Blue Mage can use any known spell-like ability himself (both temporarily and permanently learned ones), but can only do so limited times per day (similiar to how sorcerer has limited number of spells at his disposal). As with normal spell-like abilities, they don't require focuses and material, somatic and verbal components, but XP components still need to be provided. Caster level of all blue mage spell-like abilities equals his class level, as with normal spellcasting classes. All blue mage spell-like abilities are based on Charisma (for purposes of DC and bonus "spell slots"), just like sorcerer's spellcasting is based on Charisma. Spell-Like Abilities per Day: As bards's Spells per Day, including bonus slots from high Charisma Spell-Like Abilities Known (limit): As bard's Spell Known Above changed from sorcerer's progression to bard's for balance reasons Note: Blue Mage don't cast spells, and has no real spellcaster levels. He cannot qualify for item creation feats, nor any of his abilities are treated as actual spells. He has no spell list, so he cannot activate any spell completion or spell trigger items without use of Use Magic Device skill. His abilities cannot be used for satisfying item creation requirements or any other such thing. Learning Call: At 1st level, and each time Blue Mage gains new level of spell-like abilites, he may call single non-particular and non-unique outsider up to his own HD, to request teaching single spell-like ability it posesses. If alignment of this outsider is not opposite to that of Blue Mage, the creature agrees, teaching Blue Mage one of his spell-like abilites by using it on Blue Mage as much time as it's needed or when it runs out of uses. If the creature runs out of spell-like ability uses, the learning call is effectively wasted. When learning call ends, creature is automatically sent back to where it came from. Any danger posed to called creature automatically sends it back, wasting whole learning call, even if creature is unaware of the danger. Sending back occurs before danger results in any loss for the creature. Ritual of calling the creature requires 1 hour and suitable place to complete (any place suitable for preparing spell is good for calling ritual). Defensive Knowledge: Starting from 3rd level, Blue Mage gains +2 bonus to saving throws against all spell-like abilities he knows, regardless how he learned them. This includes temporarily learned ability.
dantedarkstar 12-05-03, 08:06 AM	Opinions ? Criticism ? :D
Kage Wellby 12-05-03, 08:48 AM	I like it, although I'd make it a Spellcraft check to learn the Spell-Like ability, and I'd allow him to have a Supernatural ability which he has experienced as well. I'd remove the armor proficiencies, lower BAB, bad fort, and lower HD to 1d6, but otherwise it's not bad.
dantedarkstar 12-05-03, 10:13 AM	Allow Su abilities ? So he would be able to learn Paladin's Divine Grace, Cleric's Turning, dragon's Breath, Solar's DR and ? :eek: I think Spell-Likes are enough. There are clear mechanics regarding "casting" spell-like abilities. Supernatural abilities are completely different thing (how do you "use" DR ?) There is a good reason to have all those weapon/armor proficiencies: 1.He gains most abilities from enemies he fights. And most of the time spell-like abilities are far from sor/wiz offensive blasting. He needs weapons to survive (well, he has assortment of sorcerer here anyway). 2.As I said, much of time, he will be forced in meele combat, because he doesn't have appropriate abilities to act like mobile weapon platform. 3.Armor in no way interferes with spell-like abilities (no somatic components). And clerics do have all that armor after all. 4.HD - if he wants to actually learn all those abilities, he'll need it. As for Knowledge instead Spellcraft to learn, it is to: 1.Differentiate spells from spell-like abilities. 2.Make it more climatic. Besides it fits he has knowledge of monsters. And he could specialize for example in outsider knowledge (most sensible choice), while not really knowing that much about dragons.
Sorxores 12-05-03, 12:08 PM	Originally posted by dantedarkstar Allow Su abilities ? So he would be able to learn Paladin's Divine Grace, Cleric's Turning, dragon's Breath, Solar's DR and ? :eek: I think Spell-Likes are enough. There are clear mechanics regarding "casting" spell-like abilities. Supernatural abilities are completely different thing (how do you "use" DR ?) There is a good reason to have all those weapon/armor proficiencies: 1.He gains most abilities from enemies he fights. And most of the time spell-like abilities are far from sor/wiz offensive blasting. He needs weapons to survive (well, he has assortment of sorcerer here anyway). 2.As I said, much of time, he will be forced in meele combat, because he doesn't have appropriate abilities to act like mobile weapon platform. 3.Armor in no way interferes with spell-like abilities (no somatic components). And clerics do have all that armor after all. 4.HD - if he wants to actually learn all those abilities, he'll need it. As for Knowledge instead Spellcraft to learn, it is to: 1.Differentiate spells from spell-like abilities. 2.Make it more climatic. Besides it fits he has knowledge of monsters. And he could specialize for example in outsider knowledge (most sensible choice), while not really knowing that much about dragons. I would give him a d4 HD since he is a sponteneous full spellcaster, so no way he should have higher then sorcerer. He must receive the enemies blast, ok give him the fort AND ref AND Will save, to make out the d4 life, if he want more life, take the tougness feat and put a good score into CON. A sorcerer who use melee touch spell like burning hand, shocking crasp, ghoul touch, vampiric touch... do not have a d4 of life. Then for weapon profiency. Give him the bard's weapon. but not more since he need to take time to study how to learn spell faster the the wizards can. (the wizard must spend a week per spell lvl to scribe it into his spell book, but the BLue mage can learn it in a Full-round) For the armor, give him ligh armor only, but his spell are subject to half the arcane spell failure round up if he his profiency with the armor even on divine spell. So a BM in a chain shirt (failure 20%) have a 10% chance to fail a spell. If in mithral chainshirt, (failure 20-10=10) he have 5% spell failure. Do not give him the shield since he should not be better then the bard in melee fight and give him 1/2 BAB. If you want a 3/4 BAB take a bard or multiclass BM/fighter, would get something with 3/4 BAB (and more life) You should not compared the BM with the cleric since he get a much wider spell list then the cleric, have more spell/day then the cleric, have better save then the cleric, and the cleric his already consider one of the strongest core class. When you creat (or modifie) a class, you cannot just take all the best stuff of everyone. (spell per day of the sorcerer, can learn more spell then the sorcerer, cast sponteneous like the sorcerer, can cast in armor like the cleric, gain all weapon, armor, shield profiency like the fighter, can UMD like rogue and bard...) So if you want to an overpowered class give him the best stuff of everyone, but if you want a balance class, that some DM will accept, I suggest you to listen to people that tell you to lower it stuff. Yeah he need lot of life to learn many spell, but he can find other way to give him life then a d8. like by giving him thougness feat, taking a amulet of constitution, casting cure spell on him...
dantedarkstar 12-09-03, 12:27 PM	Originally posted by Sorxores I would give him a d4 HD since he is a sponteneous full spellcaster, so no way he should have higher then sorcerer. He must receive the enemies blast, ok give him the fort AND ref AND Will save, to make out the d4 life, if he want more life, take the tougness feat and put a good score into CON. A sorcerer who use melee touch spell like burning hand, shocking crasp, ghoul touch, vampiric touch... do not have a d4 of life. He would also have to fight in meele when he happen not to have any useful combat spell-likes. For few first levels, he is likely to be just a poor fighter with one or two spell-like abilities. Then for weapon profiency. Give him the bard's weapon. but not more since he need to take time to study how to learn spell faster the the wizards can. (the wizard must spend a week per spell lvl to scribe it into his spell book, but the BLue mage can learn it in a Full-round) Uhh, bards probably got some better weapons than simple. These are just weapons sorcerer can use. For the armor, give him ligh armor only, but his spell are subject to half the arcane spell failure round up if he his profiency with the armor even on divine spell. So a BM in a chain shirt (failure 20%) have a 10% chance to fail a spell. If in mithral chainshirt, (failure 20-10=10) he have 5% spell failure. ASF is out of question, because HE DOES NOT CAST SPELLS. They are spell-like abilities. I can understand not giving him all armor, but I just fear such class would just get easily overwhelmed early. He cannot learn spells, only spell-like abilities. So no learning CLW from cleric or Fireball from Wizard (althrough if said wizards got spell-like fireball via Archmage high arcana, that's entirely another matter). After careful reading through classes, I discovered that bardic music is spell-like (!) and also paladin mount is spell-like (!) which I didn't anticipate for this class. I will have to add some notes regarding such abilities for which spell level cannot be determined. But disregarding these, here's what he could learn from other classes: Paladin's Detect Evil Paladin's Cure Disease Wizard's Scry on Familiar (I will have to read through it again) all other stuff has to be from monsters. I may have missed few Sp abilities, but anyway they are scarce in party. Do not give him the shield since he should not be better then the bard in melee fight and give him 1/2 BAB. If you want a 3/4 BAB take a bard or multiclass BM/fighter, would get something with 3/4 BAB (and more life) BAB thing comes right in same place as weapon and armor proficiencies. He'll need it to survive. You should not compared the BM with the cleric since he get a much wider spell list then the cleric, have more spell/day then the cleric, have better save then the cleric, and the cleric his already consider one of the strongest core class. When you creat (or modifie) a class, you cannot just take all the best stuff of everyone. (spell per day of the sorcerer, can learn more spell then the sorcerer, cast sponteneous like the sorcerer, can cast in armor like the cleric, gain all weapon, armor, shield profiency like the fighter, can UMD like rogue and bard...) 1.He don't get ANY spell list. And there aren't that huge variety of spell-like abilities available anyway. 2.Yes, he does have higher "spell" capacity. 3.He doesn't have better saves than clerics. Clr also get Fort and Will as good saves. So if you want to an overpowered class give him the best stuff of everyone, but if you want a balance class, that some DM will accept, I suggest you to listen to people that tell you to lower it stuff. Yeah he need lot of life to learn many spell, but he can find other way to give him life then a d8. like by giving him thougness feat, taking a amulet of constitution, casting cure spell on him... After ciriticism I got and some thought, I think I indeed may have went a little too far, because at very high level he can be just stronger than anyone. I was too focused on worrying about him early, that I overlooked his power at highest levels. I am thinking now about Bard-type progression with spell-like abilities (thus only up to 6th level spell-likes), while retaining all other stuff (d8 HP, 3/4 BAB, two good saves, weapon and armor proficiencies). I am aware that clerics are most powerful core class. Here's small breakdown: 1.HD - same 2.BAB - same 3.Saves - same 4.Skills - Blue Mage has more, but requires at least half Knowledge skills for class feature, skill list comparable (or BM has a bit worse) 5.Blue Mage gets more spell-like slots/day 6.Blue can use spell-likes spontaneously 7.Clerics know all thier spells, instead of few 8.Clerics don't have to get along with spell-likes they encouter, instead choosing freely 8.Blue Mage has spell-likes which means lack of V and S components 9.Clerics has spells, which means ability to fulfill much prerequisites, as well as enjoying many benefits that affect spells only (such as spell focus or metamagics) 10.Clerics get Turning 11.Clerics get Domain powers and spells (which puts vast majority of spells within cleric's potential range) 12.Blue Mage gets defensive knowledge If I give him Bard-like spell-like abilities progression, he will be toned down mainly on high levels, where he could be a bit out of control. But I fear that in normal settings, where you don't meet monsters with spell-like abilities around each corner, he would be just very poor fighter with single or two spell-likes, and even at higher levels, this wouldn't necessarily change. GM do have quite much control of this class progression (but not all, there are calling spells other characters can posess and there is learning call). And Bards after all have lots of other abilities besides thier spellcasing (I think better Other suggestions ? Opinions about changing him to Bard progression with spell-likes ? Opinions about weapon and armor proficiencies ?
dantedarkstar 12-11-03, 07:14 AM	lil' bump :bump:
Nakou the Saiyan 12-11-03, 07:55 AM	I think bumping it down to a bards spells/known and progression would work perfectly. I think you should definately leave him with the BAB and HP and everything. Does this guy get bonus spell-like abilities/day based upon their Cha (like bards/sorcerers)? Just a question since it doesnt seem very clear above. Also dont take this the wrong way, but it seems more like a PRC to me.
dantedarkstar 12-11-03, 12:05 PM	Well, if I do cut him to Bard's type progression, that certainly other aspects (BAB, saves, proficiencies) should stay, otherwise he's just a toast. Yes, I intended for him to get bonus spell-like ability uses/day from high Cha, just like spell slots for sorcerers. I'll add it. Thanks for reminding about this one. Well, maybe it looks a bit like PrC, but if I did him as PrC, then: 1.He would probably end having even lower spell-like ability level. 2.His caster level for spell-likes would suck a bit 3.There couldn't be pure spell-like ability wielder. I'll think about PrC.
Nakou the Saiyan 12-11-03, 12:43 PM	If you decide to make it a PRC, concider Ur-Priest type progression for the spell-like abilities...
dantedarkstar 12-11-03, 01:00 PM	If I ever get to ever glimpse Ur Priest class maybe I will :) I have no idea where it could be even. I have been thinking, that since Blue Mage gets quite slow spell-like progression, he needs some other abilities. Nothing major, just some minor bonuses. I was thinking about Wildshaping (sort of), but I can't seem to balance it by simple means (like saying "as druid 4 levels lower). Does anybody have some ideas what Blue Mage/Monster Mage/Mimic could use ?
Nakou the Saiyan 12-12-03, 09:48 AM	Ur-Priest is in BOVD... I dont have the book so I dotn have the specific numbers, but they gain a new level of spells every level (instead of every other level) which is standard. Seems reasonable for this class since its already a precedent, though to balance it you may want to do away with the Learning Call ability. Good luck!
Ellone 12-12-03, 10:29 AM	Spell like ability have some special properties making them more powerfull than spells. These are: No xp cost No component/focus you did get rid of some problems by taking bard progression, disabling wish and limited wish, 2 of the most game breaking spell like ability. There's still other ( permanency... )and you should address these 2 special properties of sp.
Ellone 12-12-03, 10:30 AM	and you need to resolve caster level too. a 5th level fireball and a 10th level fireball are two diferent things.
eudas 12-12-03, 11:27 AM	i would definitely use bard as the template from which to build; go down to bard saves, bard HD, bard BAB. take away bardic music, and add in the mimic capabilities. i would just build it as a bard variant, or possibly even a sorc variant; i believe that building it off of the cleric template is a mistake. eudas
Nakou the Saiyan 12-12-03, 11:46 AM	i would definitely use bard as the template from which to build; go down to bard saves, bard HD, bard BAB. Bards have 3/4 BAB and 2 good saves, just like this class. This class is trading 2 skill points per level for an average of 1 extra HP per level, so I think its basically on par with bards. Blue Mages need the HP more than a bard, and skills are VERY important so the lowered number of skill points help balance that fact more than normal. Think what it would be like if Sorcerers needed 5 or so different Spellcraft skills just to learn their spells and you will see what I mean. As a core class, bard progression is perfect for these guys. The only thing I still dont like is Learning Call but oh well.
dantedarkstar 12-15-03, 11:10 AM	Loophole fix: Blue mage cannot learn spell-like abilities from other blue mages. Those are not "original" spell-like abilities and therefore unsuitable for learning. ----- I just got an idea, that could possibly allow for sorcerer-like spell-like abilities known progression. Let's say that he has these spell-like abilities know up to like sorcerer spells known. Blue Mages have spell-like abilities slots just like spells known for sorcerer. Additionally, he has one temporary slot. When encoutering spell-like ability, he can learn it as described above, putting that ability in temporary slot. Using temporary slot ability wipes it out. It's one-use only. But if Blue Mage retains this spell-like ability to his morning meditation process, he may transfer it to one of his permanent spell-like abilitiy slots. Blue mage can cast any spell-like ability he knows ONCE per day, althrough he can use up 2 second-level slots to know Aid twice for example. On morning meditation, he may manage slots as he likes, transferring spell-likes known between slots, etc, but once he forgets last copy of spell-like ability, he can't remember it back until he learns it again from the source. What do you think ?
Lord Nat 12-28-03, 04:32 PM	I think it fit with the FF Blue Mage (You are going for more like that then the other one right?) I'd give him a small list of Supernatural abilities they can learn. (I don't have the MM so I don't know much about them... *Is noob*) If you take a look at FF5 (The best Blue Mage I think) you will see that he can get a good number of monster spells but not all of them. So I'd make some thing where he can learn SN ones that fit some kind of rule. Monster HD or Maybe some kind of Level for them. But have it so they can not learn ones from a Class skill. Blue Mages are Monster Mages so Class stuff does not work for them.