Bluff and sneak attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bluff and sneak attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mephosorpolis
09-26-05, 10:04 AM Would anyone care to fully explain how bluff and sneak attack work? It may be just me, but the PHB isn't specific enough for me or my DM.
Satori
09-26-05, 10:11 AM I BELIEVE that you can use bluff as a standard action to "feint" against an intelligent opponent.

You roll your bluff skill vs their sense motive skill, and if you win...they're now flat footed for a round.

Certain feats and class abilities let you minimize the action commitment of a feint. Improved Feint lets you use feint as a move action, and lvl 5 Invisible Blade gives Feint as a free action.

I'm still confused, though, as to how long feint lasts. Does it last until their next turn? My next turn? If I have to use feint as a standard action, then I can't attack them immediately after...will they still be flat-footed when I attack next round?

If not...then the action is useless without the feat/PrC modifiers.
Nephlite
09-26-05, 11:01 AM I BELIEVE that you can use bluff as a standard action to "feint" against an intelligent opponent.

You roll your bluff skill vs their sense motive skill, and if you win...they're now flat footed for a round.

Certain feats and class abilities let you minimize the action commitment of a feint. Improved Feint lets you use feint as a move action, and lvl 5 Invisible Blade gives Feint as a free action.

I'm still confused, though, as to how long feint lasts. Does it last until their next turn? My next turn? If I have to use feint as a standard action, then I can't attack them immediately after...will they still be flat-footed when I attack next round?

If not...then the action is useless without the feat/PrC modifiers.

No exactly to feint:
its Bluff versus Opponent's BAB + Sense motive:

When you feint you fake them out. They expect you to swing left but you swing right instead, due to the confusion, they lose dex to that single attack.

Though I have to wonder why Improved Fient doesn't give +4 bonus like the other improved stuff feats do...

IMPROVED FEINT [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action.
Normal: Feinting in combat is a standard action.
A fighter may select Improved Feint as one of his fighter bonus feats.

The reason why you want it a move action instead of standard is than you can smack them if they right beside you this turn.

FEINT
Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If your Bluff check result exceeds your target's Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
When feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it's impossible.
Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Feinting as a Move Action: With the Improved Feint feat, you can attempt a feint as a move action instead of as a standard action.

You have 2 turns to make the feint attack: this turn when you do it or next turn.
Finarin Panjoro
09-26-05, 11:03 AM A Feint is done by making a Bluff check as a standard action opposed by the target's Sense Motive plus their Base Attack Bonus. If you win, the target is denied their dex bonus to AC for your next melee attack. This attack must be made on or before your next turn. So you can bluff on one turn and then hit them the next turn and they are still denied their dex to AC.

If you have the improved feint feat then it is only a move action to bluff. This is a big help if you use this tactic because then you can bluff and attack in the same round which will allow you to make a sneak attack against someone every round without having to flank them.

Feinting is also particularly useful against targets with Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge who are very hard to sneak attack with standard methods (catching them flat-footed, hitting them while invisible, or flanking).
Kratch
09-26-05, 11:49 AM Feinting is also particularly useful against targets with Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge who are very hard to sneak attack with standard methods (catching them flat-footed, hitting them while invisible, or flanking).

As far as i'm aware. uncanny dodge does not prevent sneak attacks from being flat footed, fighting invisible opponents, etc. it's mearly allows them to retain there dex bonus to AC in those situations.

Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

The bolded part indicates to me she remains flat footed, she just gets to retain her dex bonus.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

The "would be" indicates that they don't actually need to be denied there dex bonus, just the situation requires that normally they would be.

I suppose it's a matter of interpretation, but thats how i read it.
Shadowfax7
09-26-05, 11:56 AM What happens if the target of a successful feint moves out of the threatened square of the feinter prior to the feinter's next turn ??

Is the target still denied their Dex bonus to AC if the feinter follows them and attacks ??

Obviously if the feinter must expend 2 move actions to follow they can't attack.
ShinAkuma2
09-26-05, 01:59 PM The target is still denied his dex for that attack.

If the target moves that far away from you, either 1) take an AoO (the feint WILL apply to this), or if he withdrew, 2) charge him.
bolgar
09-26-05, 02:14 PM Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

The "would be" indicates that they don't actually need to be denied there dex bonus, just the situation requires that normally they would be.

The "would be" clearly realtes to the bold text. If somebody has uncanny dodge, you cannot sneak him because he's flat-footed.
DrowSmurf
09-26-05, 02:19 PM but doesnt improved uncanny dodge say you cant be sneak attacked unless by a rogue of 4lvls higher?
Finarin Panjoro
09-26-05, 02:38 PM No, Improved Uncanny Dodge means that normally no one gets a +2 bonus to attack you for flanking and that you cannot be sneak attacked by a rogue who is flanking you.

However if a rogue who is flanking you is 4 levels higher than you he still gets sneak attack damage (though he does not get the +2 bonus for flanking).
Puca
09-26-05, 02:50 PM I BELIEVE that you can use bluff as a standard action to "feint" against an intelligent opponent.

You roll your bluff skill vs their sense motive skill, and if you win...they're now flat footed for a round.

Certain feats and class abilities let you minimize the action commitment of a feint. Improved Feint lets you use feint as a move action, and lvl 5 Invisible Blade gives Feint as a free action.

I'm still confused, though, as to how long feint lasts. Does it last until their next turn? My next turn? If I have to use feint as a standard action, then I can't attack them immediately after...will they still be flat-footed when I attack next round?

If not...then the action is useless without the feat/PrC modifiers.OK, this is misleading, as is pretty clear from some of the other posts. You are using the word flat-footed. That is not the case. If you read in the post with the full text of feint, you dont see the term flat footed anywhere.
If you read the SRD on flat-footed:
Flat-Footed
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.Being flat-footed is one of the many ways that you can be denied your dex bonus. Failing a feint is another. Other than that, they have nothing to do with one another and a protection against being caught flat-footed does nothing to protect you from a feint.

Feint works agains the NEXT (singular) attack you make as long as that attack is before the end of your next turn. Your next turn is the turn following the one on which the feint was made. If there are move actions or free actions or anthing but another attack in between, youre still able to get your SA damage.

So, you could feint (as a standard action) move. Then on your next turn, move back and attack, getting SA damage if you hit. If you miss, it is over until you feint again.

It can be nice. Add the feat and you can attack for SA every round, which is better than full attack for you. Even as a standard action, a rogue with decent SA is going to do more damage attacking every other round than he might making full attacks considering the -5 on iterative attacks.

Youve got to have a good bluff modifier though. Even a fighter with no ranks in Sense Motive is going to be close to you when your ranks are maxed out because he adds BAB.
Irr'vraen
09-26-05, 03:39 PM Damn, I'm glad I found this thread! I was wondering how exactly a feint worked in combat, since I'm creating another new class for my world I'm working on, and it's going to need this ability. Also good to have a place to reference when someone argues with me about what 'flat-footed' actually means... :D
ezreal2001
09-27-05, 09:34 AM As far as i'm aware. uncanny dodge does not prevent sneak attacks from being flat footed, fighting invisible opponents, etc. it's mearly allows them to retain there dex bonus to AC in those situations.
I suppose it's a matter of interpretation, but thats how i read it.

Well, just going by this section from part 3 of last years "All About Sneak Attaks" from Rules of the Game I'd have to differ.

Uncanny Dodge and Sneak Attacks
The uncanny dodge class ability is just about the nastiest sneak attack breaker in the game. Only immunity to critical hits offers more absolute protection against sneak attacks. So, uncanny dodge gets a section in the article all to itself.

The uncanny dodge ability allows a flat-footed creature to retain its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and it foils sneak attacks when in does so.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a

But then again Skip Williams was only one of the authors.
Egres
09-27-05, 09:43 AM Well, just going by this section from part 3 of last years "All About Sneak Attaks" from Rules of the Game I'd have to differ.

But then again Skip Williams was only one of the authors.
Actually, this is Skip's reply to a mail sent him last year:

Both the feint description in the PH and Rules of Games make it pretty clear that uncanny dodge does not protect you from feints. (The Bluff skill tells you what feints do, Rules of the Game tells you what uncanny dodge does).
ezreal2001
09-27-05, 10:44 PM Actually, this is Skip's reply to a mail sent him last year:

Both the feint description in the PH and Rules of Games make it pretty clear that uncanny dodge does not protect you from feints. (The Bluff skill tells you what feints do, Rules of the Game tells you what uncanny dodge does).

Ta.

I had a feeling that fient defeated Uncanny Dodge, but the absence of clear direction in the PHB did not make this clear.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mephosorpolis 09-26-05, 10:04 AM	Would anyone care to fully explain how bluff and sneak attack work? It may be just me, but the PHB isn't specific enough for me or my DM.
Satori 09-26-05, 10:11 AM	I BELIEVE that you can use bluff as a standard action to "feint" against an intelligent opponent. You roll your bluff skill vs their sense motive skill, and if you win...they're now flat footed for a round. Certain feats and class abilities let you minimize the action commitment of a feint. Improved Feint lets you use feint as a move action, and lvl 5 Invisible Blade gives Feint as a free action. I'm still confused, though, as to how long feint lasts. Does it last until their next turn? My next turn? If I have to use feint as a standard action, then I can't attack them immediately after...will they still be flat-footed when I attack next round? If not...then the action is useless without the feat/PrC modifiers.
Nephlite 09-26-05, 11:01 AM	I BELIEVE that you can use bluff as a standard action to "feint" against an intelligent opponent. You roll your bluff skill vs their sense motive skill, and if you win...they're now flat footed for a round. Certain feats and class abilities let you minimize the action commitment of a feint. Improved Feint lets you use feint as a move action, and lvl 5 Invisible Blade gives Feint as a free action. I'm still confused, though, as to how long feint lasts. Does it last until their next turn? My next turn? If I have to use feint as a standard action, then I can't attack them immediately after...will they still be flat-footed when I attack next round? If not...then the action is useless without the feat/PrC modifiers. No exactly to feint: its Bluff versus Opponent's BAB + Sense motive: When you feint you fake them out. They expect you to swing left but you swing right instead, due to the confusion, they lose dex to that single attack. Though I have to wonder why Improved Fient doesn't give +4 bonus like the other improved stuff feats do... IMPROVED FEINT [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise. Benefit: You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action. Normal: Feinting in combat is a standard action. A fighter may select Improved Feint as one of his fighter bonus feats. The reason why you want it a move action instead of standard is than you can smack them if they right beside you this turn. FEINT Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If your Bluff check result exceeds your target's Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn. When feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it's impossible. Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Feinting as a Move Action: With the Improved Feint feat, you can attempt a feint as a move action instead of as a standard action. You have 2 turns to make the feint attack: this turn when you do it or next turn.
Finarin Panjoro 09-26-05, 11:03 AM	A Feint is done by making a Bluff check as a standard action opposed by the target's Sense Motive plus their Base Attack Bonus. If you win, the target is denied their dex bonus to AC for your next melee attack. This attack must be made on or before your next turn. So you can bluff on one turn and then hit them the next turn and they are still denied their dex to AC. If you have the improved feint feat then it is only a move action to bluff. This is a big help if you use this tactic because then you can bluff and attack in the same round which will allow you to make a sneak attack against someone every round without having to flank them. Feinting is also particularly useful against targets with Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge who are very hard to sneak attack with standard methods (catching them flat-footed, hitting them while invisible, or flanking).
Kratch 09-26-05, 11:49 AM	Feinting is also particularly useful against targets with Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge who are very hard to sneak attack with standard methods (catching them flat-footed, hitting them while invisible, or flanking). As far as i'm aware. uncanny dodge does not prevent sneak attacks from being flat footed, fighting invisible opponents, etc. it's mearly allows them to retain there dex bonus to AC in those situations. Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. The bolded part indicates to me she remains flat footed, she just gets to retain her dex bonus. The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. The "would be" indicates that they don't actually need to be denied there dex bonus, just the situation requires that normally they would be. I suppose it's a matter of interpretation, but thats how i read it.
Shadowfax7 09-26-05, 11:56 AM	What happens if the target of a successful feint moves out of the threatened square of the feinter prior to the feinter's next turn ?? Is the target still denied their Dex bonus to AC if the feinter follows them and attacks ?? Obviously if the feinter must expend 2 move actions to follow they can't attack.
ShinAkuma2 09-26-05, 01:59 PM	The target is still denied his dex for that attack. If the target moves that far away from you, either 1) take an AoO (the feint WILL apply to this), or if he withdrew, 2) charge him.
bolgar 09-26-05, 02:14 PM	Quote: Originally Posted by SRD The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. The "would be" indicates that they don't actually need to be denied there dex bonus, just the situation requires that normally they would be. The "would be" clearly realtes to the bold text. If somebody has uncanny dodge, you cannot sneak him because he's flat-footed.
DrowSmurf 09-26-05, 02:19 PM	but doesnt improved uncanny dodge say you cant be sneak attacked unless by a rogue of 4lvls higher?
Finarin Panjoro 09-26-05, 02:38 PM	No, Improved Uncanny Dodge means that normally no one gets a +2 bonus to attack you for flanking and that you cannot be sneak attacked by a rogue who is flanking you. However if a rogue who is flanking you is 4 levels higher than you he still gets sneak attack damage (though he does not get the +2 bonus for flanking).
Puca 09-26-05, 02:50 PM	I BELIEVE that you can use bluff as a standard action to "feint" against an intelligent opponent. You roll your bluff skill vs their sense motive skill, and if you win...they're now flat footed for a round. Certain feats and class abilities let you minimize the action commitment of a feint. Improved Feint lets you use feint as a move action, and lvl 5 Invisible Blade gives Feint as a free action. I'm still confused, though, as to how long feint lasts. Does it last until their next turn? My next turn? If I have to use feint as a standard action, then I can't attack them immediately after...will they still be flat-footed when I attack next round? If not...then the action is useless without the feat/PrC modifiers.OK, this is misleading, as is pretty clear from some of the other posts. You are using the word flat-footed. That is not the case. If you read in the post with the full text of feint, you dont see the term flat footed anywhere. If you read the SRD on flat-footed: Flat-Footed A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.Being flat-footed is one of the many ways that you can be denied your dex bonus. Failing a feint is another. Other than that, they have nothing to do with one another and a protection against being caught flat-footed does nothing to protect you from a feint. Feint works agains the NEXT (singular) attack you make as long as that attack is before the end of your next turn. Your next turn is the turn following the one on which the feint was made. If there are move actions or free actions or anthing but another attack in between, youre still able to get your SA damage. So, you could feint (as a standard action) move. Then on your next turn, move back and attack, getting SA damage if you hit. If you miss, it is over until you feint again. It can be nice. Add the feat and you can attack for SA every round, which is better than full attack for you. Even as a standard action, a rogue with decent SA is going to do more damage attacking every other round than he might making full attacks considering the -5 on iterative attacks. Youve got to have a good bluff modifier though. Even a fighter with no ranks in Sense Motive is going to be close to you when your ranks are maxed out because he adds BAB.
Irr'vraen 09-26-05, 03:39 PM	Damn, I'm glad I found this thread! I was wondering how exactly a feint worked in combat, since I'm creating another new class for my world I'm working on, and it's going to need this ability. Also good to have a place to reference when someone argues with me about what 'flat-footed' actually means... :D
ezreal2001 09-27-05, 09:34 AM	As far as i'm aware. uncanny dodge does not prevent sneak attacks from being flat footed, fighting invisible opponents, etc. it's mearly allows them to retain there dex bonus to AC in those situations. I suppose it's a matter of interpretation, but thats how i read it. Well, just going by this section from part 3 of last years "All About Sneak Attaks" from Rules of the Game I'd have to differ. Uncanny Dodge and Sneak Attacks The uncanny dodge class ability is just about the nastiest sneak attack breaker in the game. Only immunity to critical hits offers more absolute protection against sneak attacks. So, uncanny dodge gets a section in the article all to itself. The uncanny dodge ability allows a flat-footed creature to retain its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and it foils sneak attacks when in does so. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a But then again Skip Williams was only one of the authors.
Egres 09-27-05, 09:43 AM	Well, just going by this section from part 3 of last years "All About Sneak Attaks" from Rules of the Game I'd have to differ. But then again Skip Williams was only one of the authors. Actually, this is Skip's reply to a mail sent him last year: Both the feint description in the PH and Rules of Games make it pretty clear that uncanny dodge does not protect you from feints. (The Bluff skill tells you what feints do, Rules of the Game tells you what uncanny dodge does).
ezreal2001 09-27-05, 10:44 PM	Actually, this is Skip's reply to a mail sent him last year: Both the feint description in the PH and Rules of Games make it pretty clear that uncanny dodge does not protect you from feints. (The Bluff skill tells you what feints do, Rules of the Game tells you what uncanny dodge does). Ta. I had a feeling that fient defeated Uncanny Dodge, but the absence of clear direction in the PHB did not make this clear.