Bobo the Fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bobo the Fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Realms of Chaos
10-26-06, 01:05 AM Using completely legal manuvers from the player's handbook and a couple of other select sources, I have formed Bobo, my personal favorite start for a fighter build.

Level 1: Bobo, level 1 human fighter
Ability Scores: Str 15, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8
AC: 13; Initiative: +1; Base Attack Bonus +1; Grapple: +3
Attack: Spiked Chain +3 reach (2d4+2)
Saving Throws: Fort: +2, Ref +1, Will +2
Skills: Tumble +3, Hide +3, Move Silently +3, Spellcraft +3
Flaws: Shaky, Defenseless
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Quick Draw, Mage Slayer
Equipment: Tower Shield, Spiked Chain, Locked Gauntlet, Leather Armor

Tactics: Bobo has a set of simple tactics that look complex but sure enough all work.
The Switcheroo: Bobo's hands are both occupied at all times. Bobo's locked gauntlet keeps the spiked chain in one hand and if he is not weilding it in the other, he is using his tower shield. putting away his weapon and taking out his shield (he doesn't usually hold it) is a full-round action. putting away his shield and taking out his weapon is a move action due to the quick draw feat. In addition, as his base attack bonus is +1, he can take out or sheath either his weapon or shield as part of a move action.
Technicallity #1: Using a Tower Shield for total cover requires no action of any sort. It only requires you not to attack. As such, you can put away your weapon, take out your shield as you move 30 feet, and take cover behind it as a single full-round action.
Technicality #2: Nothing Short of having your tower shield sundered can deny you of the total cover it provides. it can technically provide total cover while you are prone. It can also provide total cover against attacks of opportunity.
Technicality #3: Using your Tower Shield for total cover makes you an invalid target for attacks from any and all angles, as well as bull ruches made as standard actions, disarm attempts, grapple attempts, and trip attempts. Also, you can make hide checks from behind the cover and still get the +2 bonus on reflex saves.
The Bait and switch: Against opponents of your own size, fighting is a piece of cake. Simply stand in place with your tower shield withdrawn. As your standard action, ready an action to take a 5 foot step away from and attack the next person to attack you. This is a completely legal manuver. A charging opponent does not matter as they stop the charge before they try to make the attack, triggering your readied action. Your opponent will always miss you, and you are free to attack or trip your opponent (possibly making another trip attempt). If your opponent is using a reach weapon, it is unlikely that they moved right next to you to attack. Against foes with spiked chains of their own, the fight becomes fairly even, with you pulling slightly ahead.
Spellcasters: Against spellcasters, you pretty much have it made, get next to them and ready an action to attack them as soon as they move. If they cast a spell, they provoke an attack of opportunity, allowing you to make an attack (or trip them and make an attack). If they take a 5-foot step back and then cast a spell, they activate your readied action and provoke an attack of opportunity with the spell. If they take the withdraw action, your readied action is activated and they can only use their quickened spell in that round. If they move away, they provoke an attack of opportunity as well as your readied action. As the only way that they can cast a spell in that round is through a withdraw action, use your readied action for a trip attempt.
The Gargler: The most ingenious technique of Bobo involves items not yet in its inventory, healing potions. While taking cover behind his shield, he can unattach his spiked chain from his gauntlet, take as many healing potions as he wants, reattach it, and rejoin combat, so long as no spellcaster bothers it.
Larger Creatures: Against larger creatures, there is a very simple strategy, attack until you are hit and then start using the Gargler Strategy.
Covering Weaknesses: At 2nd level, Bobo gets power attack. At 3rd level, Bobo gets the new feat from Complete Mage that allows you to delay the effects of potions, making the Gargler tactic quicker (as you don't need to spend time unlatching and relatching your weapon to your gauntlet) whenever it is needed (and Gargler will be needed significantly less). At 4th level, Bobo gets cleave to deal with crowd control. At 6th level, Bobo gets great cleave (for better crowd control) and Giantbane (allowing you to deal with larger creatures), At 8th level, Bobo gets improved disarm to deal with the ever annoying opposed spike chain. At this point, the only real threat that Bobo possesses is that from surprise attacks and supernatural abilities (threats that are a threat to just about everyone)

my above ideas may seem a bit abusive of the rules, but what do you call Pun-Pun?
Grimmsfeld
10-26-06, 01:32 AM Yeah, you've got it all figured out, with Delay Potion and your +0 constitution modifier.
The Gargler works, theoretically, although it takes at least 3 full round actions plus two move actions, and draws at least 3 AoO. All while your AC is a measily 13.

The bait and switch tactic doesn't work, since your 5 foot step happens before they finish their action, they could always decide to 5ft step towards you, provided they haven't already moved, if not, since you interrupted his next action, he can always choose to end his move 5ft farther. The tactic is doubly flawed for the charge, since again, your 5ft step happens before they finish their move, and since they have to finish their move in the square adjacent to you closest to their starting point.

Oh, and a Spiked Chain is two handed, so you can't use both it and a tower shield.

And. Mage Slayer has base attack bonus requirement that is greater than +1.

And. When claiming total cover from a tower shield, you give up any and all attacks. I also believe you have to be actively claiming cover from it, you can't just stand it up and start fiddling with your gauntlets.

And. Pun-Pun is an exercise in manipulating the game to do anything that actually works by the rules. Bobo is a horrible misinterpretation (intentional or otherwise) of the rules.
Realms of Chaos
10-26-06, 10:09 AM 1. using your tower shield for total cover means that you can't be targetted by attacks, including attacks of opportunity.

2. While using your spiked chain, your tower shield is on your back.

3. Bait and switch does work. As long as you start at least 5 feet away from your opponent, if they take a move action and then attack, they have taken their move action and can't take a further 5-foot step when you retreat. If they charge, as movement needs to end before the attack, they still end up out of reach (and the opponent gets no chance for response anyway, as triggering a readied action is basically an immediate action).

4. As I didn't have complete arcane in front of me, I couldn't see the prerequisites of Mage Slayer, Switch it to the level 2 feat and power attack to a level 1 feat.

5. I forgot that Delay potion works off of your con modifier. As that is the case, just forget it and move all other feats earlier (rounding off Bobo at 6th level instead of 8th).

6. Find a stanza (or errata) listing an action required to use a tower shield as cover. I dare you.

7. I know that Bobo is a very loose interperetation of the rules. At the same time, I see no rule stopping this.

As for the Pun-Pun comparison: Pun-Pun requires an obscure prestige class plus a template created by the WotC website (or maybe it was the other way around). This thing (as odd and broken as it may seem and probably is) follows the straight and narrow of the rules, simply using one interperetation of them.
Esponer
10-26-06, 11:32 AM Mage Slayer has a BAB requirement of +3, so switching it to your 2nd level feat isn't going to help either. Also, you're using a variant (flaws), and so you cannot begin to claim that this is really impressive. Pun-Pun uses only official, standard material. Pun-Pun also needs neither templates nor obscure prestige classes, although it can sometimes be done faster with some use of more obscure stuff.

Anyway, it's nice that you have a concept for a character that you like. When will your game be starting?
mkill
10-26-06, 11:42 AM May I quote the SRD (Readying an action):

You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

This basicly means that yes, you could take a 5 ft. step backwards when somebody closes in, but no, that doesn't mean you stop them from closing in with you for an extra 5 ft. move if they still have move left. So bait and switch does not work.

There are effective 1st-level fighter builds with 5 feats (I don't think many DMs will allow you to take 2 flaws, but whatever), but your's is not.

Actually, a fighter with a tower shield that needs to drop his shield to attack because he specializes in a two-handed weapon is pitiful. What happens is the following:

1st round: Bobo hides behind tower shield
Enemies ignore him and kill the party wizard

2nd round: Bobo fumbles around to get his spiked chain
Enemy archer kills him as soon his shield is dropped.

What you also shouldn't forget is that you can still be bullrushed or swallowed whole, even if you chicken out behind that tower shield. What use is cover when the enemy just attacks you and the cover? and your tower shield can be shattered or sundered.

If you want a tower shield tank get a halberd / bastard sword / dwarven waraxe and try again.

If you go for the spiked chain, drop that shield, get a higher dex, and try again.
Repeekluos
10-26-06, 11:47 AM You may not use the spiked chain, but there is always the kusari gama.
It helps you on your way to the concept at least.
Grimmsfeld
10-26-06, 01:34 PM Sorry, no, strapping a tower shield to your back is not going to allow you to gain full cover, primarily because you've still got your whole frontside exposed (duh.) Additionally, in the PHB, it doesn't say that you need to take an action to gain the benefit of total cover from a tower shield, just that you give up any and all of your attacks. That was my point is saying that you had to be actively claiming it, as in, not doing anything else, except for moving.
2nd Ed Paladin
10-26-06, 01:44 PM I seem to recall from somewhere that the tower sheild actually creates a "wall" on one side of your square and, thus, only provides total cover from one direction. Can't seem to find it in the SRD though.

Also charge is a full round action, not a double move action and attack attack action. Therefore my interpretation is that a charge is a move and attack rather than a move then attack. My rule would be that you could ready the action to 5 ft step but it would come after the charge attack.

You forgot defensive casting in your assessment of spellcasters abilities while threatened.

If I'm wrong about the total cover thing it does seem like a viable tactic, although your party may not appreciate it as they get creamed while you play turtle.
fatal error
10-26-06, 03:23 PM If you want a tower shield tank get a halberd / bastard sword / dwarven waraxe and try again.

Have to ask. Why would a Halberd work well with a Tower Shield?
Foxworthy
10-26-06, 04:44 PM I seem to recall from somewhere that the tower sheild actually creates a "wall" on one side of your square and, thus, only provides total cover from one direction. Can't seem to find it in the SRD though.

Page 45 of the D&D 3.5 FAQ from 9/20/2006 covers this. It also states gaining cover from the tower shield is a standard action. It goes into depth about the use of Tower Shields. Hope this helps.
Realms of Chaos
10-26-06, 08:14 PM Poor, poor Bobo.

I knew that something like it couldn't exist in the real world, but I still pity him.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Realms of Chaos 10-26-06, 01:05 AM	Using completely legal manuvers from the player's handbook and a couple of other select sources, I have formed Bobo, my personal favorite start for a fighter build. Level 1: Bobo, level 1 human fighter Ability Scores: Str 15, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8 AC: 13; Initiative: +1; Base Attack Bonus +1; Grapple: +3 Attack: Spiked Chain +3 reach (2d4+2) Saving Throws: Fort: +2, Ref +1, Will +2 Skills: Tumble +3, Hide +3, Move Silently +3, Spellcraft +3 Flaws: Shaky, Defenseless Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Quick Draw, Mage Slayer Equipment: Tower Shield, Spiked Chain, Locked Gauntlet, Leather Armor Tactics: Bobo has a set of simple tactics that look complex but sure enough all work. The Switcheroo: Bobo's hands are both occupied at all times. Bobo's locked gauntlet keeps the spiked chain in one hand and if he is not weilding it in the other, he is using his tower shield. putting away his weapon and taking out his shield (he doesn't usually hold it) is a full-round action. putting away his shield and taking out his weapon is a move action due to the quick draw feat. In addition, as his base attack bonus is +1, he can take out or sheath either his weapon or shield as part of a move action. Technicallity #1: Using a Tower Shield for total cover requires no action of any sort. It only requires you not to attack. As such, you can put away your weapon, take out your shield as you move 30 feet, and take cover behind it as a single full-round action. Technicality #2: Nothing Short of having your tower shield sundered can deny you of the total cover it provides. it can technically provide total cover while you are prone. It can also provide total cover against attacks of opportunity. Technicality #3: Using your Tower Shield for total cover makes you an invalid target for attacks from any and all angles, as well as bull ruches made as standard actions, disarm attempts, grapple attempts, and trip attempts. Also, you can make hide checks from behind the cover and still get the +2 bonus on reflex saves. The Bait and switch: Against opponents of your own size, fighting is a piece of cake. Simply stand in place with your tower shield withdrawn. As your standard action, ready an action to take a 5 foot step away from and attack the next person to attack you. This is a completely legal manuver. A charging opponent does not matter as they stop the charge before they try to make the attack, triggering your readied action. Your opponent will always miss you, and you are free to attack or trip your opponent (possibly making another trip attempt). If your opponent is using a reach weapon, it is unlikely that they moved right next to you to attack. Against foes with spiked chains of their own, the fight becomes fairly even, with you pulling slightly ahead. Spellcasters: Against spellcasters, you pretty much have it made, get next to them and ready an action to attack them as soon as they move. If they cast a spell, they provoke an attack of opportunity, allowing you to make an attack (or trip them and make an attack). If they take a 5-foot step back and then cast a spell, they activate your readied action and provoke an attack of opportunity with the spell. If they take the withdraw action, your readied action is activated and they can only use their quickened spell in that round. If they move away, they provoke an attack of opportunity as well as your readied action. As the only way that they can cast a spell in that round is through a withdraw action, use your readied action for a trip attempt. The Gargler: The most ingenious technique of Bobo involves items not yet in its inventory, healing potions. While taking cover behind his shield, he can unattach his spiked chain from his gauntlet, take as many healing potions as he wants, reattach it, and rejoin combat, so long as no spellcaster bothers it. Larger Creatures: Against larger creatures, there is a very simple strategy, attack until you are hit and then start using the Gargler Strategy. Covering Weaknesses: At 2nd level, Bobo gets power attack. At 3rd level, Bobo gets the new feat from Complete Mage that allows you to delay the effects of potions, making the Gargler tactic quicker (as you don't need to spend time unlatching and relatching your weapon to your gauntlet) whenever it is needed (and Gargler will be needed significantly less). At 4th level, Bobo gets cleave to deal with crowd control. At 6th level, Bobo gets great cleave (for better crowd control) and Giantbane (allowing you to deal with larger creatures), At 8th level, Bobo gets improved disarm to deal with the ever annoying opposed spike chain. At this point, the only real threat that Bobo possesses is that from surprise attacks and supernatural abilities (threats that are a threat to just about everyone) my above ideas may seem a bit abusive of the rules, but what do you call Pun-Pun?
Grimmsfeld 10-26-06, 01:32 AM	Yeah, you've got it all figured out, with Delay Potion and your +0 constitution modifier. The Gargler works, theoretically, although it takes at least 3 full round actions plus two move actions, and draws at least 3 AoO. All while your AC is a measily 13. The bait and switch tactic doesn't work, since your 5 foot step happens before they finish their action, they could always decide to 5ft step towards you, provided they haven't already moved, if not, since you interrupted his next action, he can always choose to end his move 5ft farther. The tactic is doubly flawed for the charge, since again, your 5ft step happens before they finish their move, and since they have to finish their move in the square adjacent to you closest to their starting point. Oh, and a Spiked Chain is two handed, so you can't use both it and a tower shield. And. Mage Slayer has base attack bonus requirement that is greater than +1. And. When claiming total cover from a tower shield, you give up any and all attacks. I also believe you have to be actively claiming cover from it, you can't just stand it up and start fiddling with your gauntlets. And. Pun-Pun is an exercise in manipulating the game to do anything that actually works by the rules. Bobo is a horrible misinterpretation (intentional or otherwise) of the rules.
Realms of Chaos 10-26-06, 10:09 AM	1. using your tower shield for total cover means that you can't be targetted by attacks, including attacks of opportunity. 2. While using your spiked chain, your tower shield is on your back. 3. Bait and switch does work. As long as you start at least 5 feet away from your opponent, if they take a move action and then attack, they have taken their move action and can't take a further 5-foot step when you retreat. If they charge, as movement needs to end before the attack, they still end up out of reach (and the opponent gets no chance for response anyway, as triggering a readied action is basically an immediate action). 4. As I didn't have complete arcane in front of me, I couldn't see the prerequisites of Mage Slayer, Switch it to the level 2 feat and power attack to a level 1 feat. 5. I forgot that Delay potion works off of your con modifier. As that is the case, just forget it and move all other feats earlier (rounding off Bobo at 6th level instead of 8th). 6. Find a stanza (or errata) listing an action required to use a tower shield as cover. I dare you. 7. I know that Bobo is a very loose interperetation of the rules. At the same time, I see no rule stopping this. As for the Pun-Pun comparison: Pun-Pun requires an obscure prestige class plus a template created by the WotC website (or maybe it was the other way around). This thing (as odd and broken as it may seem and probably is) follows the straight and narrow of the rules, simply using one interperetation of them.
Esponer 10-26-06, 11:32 AM	Mage Slayer has a BAB requirement of +3, so switching it to your 2nd level feat isn't going to help either. Also, you're using a variant (flaws), and so you cannot begin to claim that this is really impressive. Pun-Pun uses only official, standard material. Pun-Pun also needs neither templates nor obscure prestige classes, although it can sometimes be done faster with some use of more obscure stuff. Anyway, it's nice that you have a concept for a character that you like. When will your game be starting?
mkill 10-26-06, 11:42 AM	May I quote the SRD (Readying an action): You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. This basicly means that yes, you could take a 5 ft. step backwards when somebody closes in, but no, that doesn't mean you stop them from closing in with you for an extra 5 ft. move if they still have move left. So bait and switch does not work. There are effective 1st-level fighter builds with 5 feats (I don't think many DMs will allow you to take 2 flaws, but whatever), but your's is not. Actually, a fighter with a tower shield that needs to drop his shield to attack because he specializes in a two-handed weapon is pitiful. What happens is the following: 1st round: Bobo hides behind tower shield Enemies ignore him and kill the party wizard 2nd round: Bobo fumbles around to get his spiked chain Enemy archer kills him as soon his shield is dropped. What you also shouldn't forget is that you can still be bullrushed or swallowed whole, even if you chicken out behind that tower shield. What use is cover when the enemy just attacks you and the cover? and your tower shield can be shattered or sundered. If you want a tower shield tank get a halberd / bastard sword / dwarven waraxe and try again. If you go for the spiked chain, drop that shield, get a higher dex, and try again.
Repeekluos 10-26-06, 11:47 AM	You may not use the spiked chain, but there is always the kusari gama. It helps you on your way to the concept at least.
Grimmsfeld 10-26-06, 01:34 PM	Sorry, no, strapping a tower shield to your back is not going to allow you to gain full cover, primarily because you've still got your whole frontside exposed (duh.) Additionally, in the PHB, it doesn't say that you need to take an action to gain the benefit of total cover from a tower shield, just that you give up any and all of your attacks. That was my point is saying that you had to be actively claiming it, as in, not doing anything else, except for moving.
2nd Ed Paladin 10-26-06, 01:44 PM	I seem to recall from somewhere that the tower sheild actually creates a "wall" on one side of your square and, thus, only provides total cover from one direction. Can't seem to find it in the SRD though. Also charge is a full round action, not a double move action and attack attack action. Therefore my interpretation is that a charge is a move and attack rather than a move then attack. My rule would be that you could ready the action to 5 ft step but it would come after the charge attack. You forgot defensive casting in your assessment of spellcasters abilities while threatened. If I'm wrong about the total cover thing it does seem like a viable tactic, although your party may not appreciate it as they get creamed while you play turtle.
fatal error 10-26-06, 03:23 PM	If you want a tower shield tank get a halberd / bastard sword / dwarven waraxe and try again. Have to ask. Why would a Halberd work well with a Tower Shield?
Foxworthy 10-26-06, 04:44 PM	I seem to recall from somewhere that the tower sheild actually creates a "wall" on one side of your square and, thus, only provides total cover from one direction. Can't seem to find it in the SRD though. Page 45 of the D&D 3.5 FAQ from 9/20/2006 covers this. It also states gaining cover from the tower shield is a standard action. It goes into depth about the use of Tower Shields. Hope this helps.
Realms of Chaos 10-26-06, 08:14 PM	Poor, poor Bobo. I knew that something like it couldn't exist in the real world, but I still pity him.