book casters aside from wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

book casters aside from wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xeros
07-15-06, 10:09 AM d&d has become replete with spontaneous arcane casters, from bard/sorcerer/beguiler/hexblade and many more variants. Yet, the only book caster I can think of (from memory only) is the lowly wizard (and the arcane mechanik from Iron Kingdoms, them that know the setting).

so
1) are there other book casters (and by book, I just mean can freely learn external spells building an extended list)
2) does the relative lack of book casters indicate a basic flaw with how d20 treats the wizard concept (from the d&d roots, fixed spells per day, fire and forget from memory, etc... as opposed to sorcere concepts which pick the spell they want when they cast it from an open pool)

I've always liked the *idea* or a wizard...I just never want to play one in d20
zae
07-15-06, 10:31 AM If anything, prepared casters are stronger than spontaneous.

Anyhow, here's a few I can think of:
Archivist (Divine - Heroes of Horror)
Wu Jen (Arcane with their own spell list - Complete Arcane)

I'm not sure (and am too lazy to check), but the Shugenja (Divine - Complete Divine) might also be on that list. But there are few book-casters, it is true.
Telemon_Ajax
07-15-06, 10:31 AM Archivist, from Heroes of Horror. There's an online preview somewhere... :cool:
Azezel
07-15-06, 01:59 PM The Sugenja is on the list - in fact, the Shugenja is probably closer to book-casting flavour than the Wizard, since Shugenjas need their books open and in front of them when they cast.
Pax
07-15-06, 02:33 PM .... however, Shugenja only need theri ofuda (scroll-like things" as FOCI, not to prepare their spells. They are in all ways a spontaneous spellcasting class.
AndrasOtto
07-15-06, 02:49 PM Chameleons using their Arcane Focus prepare and cast from spellbooks like Wizards
thenotoriousJIM
07-15-06, 05:01 PM i am fairly certain Assasins (core PRC) gets a spellbook.
Xylem
07-15-06, 09:53 PM i am fairly certain Assasins (core PRC) gets a spellbook.Er, no.
An assassin casts spells just as a bard does.
Xeros
07-19-06, 02:39 PM ok, still very few in any case.

There are many many more classes that run spontaneously. I still ponder whether this is a reason for the wizard class and/or concept to get tweaked. There has always been something somewhat dissatisfying to me about the class. Only 4 spells per level (plus int mod of course), few abilities, and spells pre-selected. The only real merit is the theoretically infinite spell list. I have seen many many house rules on wizards, from spell point systems, to memorizing spells, but not forgetting them (so you can memorize 4 spells, and cast 4 spells, but you can mix and match inside those 4). Anyone have a favourite house rule in this regard.

The class becomes a bit cooler when you factor a prestige class in, since many still allow spell progressiont to continue, but a class shouldn't *need* a prestige class to validate itself (and most of them can be used by sorcerers as well)
scienceman47
07-19-06, 03:20 PM Hah, a thread about "wizards are teh suck", what a delightful change of pace.

Wizards are cool man. The ability to craft and scribe scrolls really allows the wizard to try out niche spells that are very useful but not on a regular basis.
And the int stat is mighty handy. And they get a total of five bonus feats.

Your okay with it after a while, the wizard and sorceror are both effective and enjoyable to play.

Sorcerors still should get "eschew materials" at some level though, if only for flavor purposes.
Pyke_Moonshadow
07-19-06, 03:28 PM Sorcerors still should get "eschew materials" at some level though, if only for flavor purposes.

I agree completely although most of the DMs I know never even use material components/foci.
Xeros
07-19-06, 03:36 PM oh yeah, if I DM'd, I would give all casters eschew materials for free.

Low cost components do not add to the magic using game experience as far as I am concerned. I have never yet met a dm that actually tracked components (though some still use it, they are happy to let the player just have a mish mash of everything they need, so it's only an issue if they are stripped naked). Personally, I would just remove the M component from every spell if the M is worth less than 1gp, or is clearly a component of the spell (as in the point of the spell, like a spell that throws an arrow should not conjrue that arrow)
Milo HoBo
07-19-06, 06:50 PM I know the Wu Jen uses a spell book, at least the version in the Complete Arcane, but the Shujenja does too? I know two versions of each class exists, one in the Complete Series and another in the Oriental Adventures.

The Archavist as already mentioned.

In my upcoming game, my DM and I have rewritten the Binder to include a 'spellbook'. Basically containing the seals, special requirments, and other bits of important information.

I can't imagine there being too many book casters. I have borrowed the ideas of Jaerom and Eyeless Blonde to come up with a variant to meet my needs, but haven't every played or DMed one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeros 07-15-06, 10:09 AM	d&d has become replete with spontaneous arcane casters, from bard/sorcerer/beguiler/hexblade and many more variants. Yet, the only book caster I can think of (from memory only) is the lowly wizard (and the arcane mechanik from Iron Kingdoms, them that know the setting). so 1) are there other book casters (and by book, I just mean can freely learn external spells building an extended list) 2) does the relative lack of book casters indicate a basic flaw with how d20 treats the wizard concept (from the d&d roots, fixed spells per day, fire and forget from memory, etc... as opposed to sorcere concepts which pick the spell they want when they cast it from an open pool) I've always liked the idea or a wizard...I just never want to play one in d20
zae 07-15-06, 10:31 AM	If anything, prepared casters are stronger than spontaneous. Anyhow, here's a few I can think of: Archivist (Divine - Heroes of Horror) Wu Jen (Arcane with their own spell list - Complete Arcane) I'm not sure (and am too lazy to check), but the Shugenja (Divine - Complete Divine) might also be on that list. But there are few book-casters, it is true.
Telemon_Ajax 07-15-06, 10:31 AM	Archivist, from Heroes of Horror. There's an online preview somewhere... :cool:
Azezel 07-15-06, 01:59 PM	The Sugenja is on the list - in fact, the Shugenja is probably closer to book-casting flavour than the Wizard, since Shugenjas need their books open and in front of them when they cast.
Pax 07-15-06, 02:33 PM	.... however, Shugenja only need theri ofuda (scroll-like things" as FOCI, not to prepare their spells. They are in all ways a spontaneous spellcasting class.
AndrasOtto 07-15-06, 02:49 PM	Chameleons using their Arcane Focus prepare and cast from spellbooks like Wizards
thenotoriousJIM 07-15-06, 05:01 PM	i am fairly certain Assasins (core PRC) gets a spellbook.
Xylem 07-15-06, 09:53 PM	i am fairly certain Assasins (core PRC) gets a spellbook.Er, no. An assassin casts spells just as a bard does.
Xeros 07-19-06, 02:39 PM	ok, still very few in any case. There are many many more classes that run spontaneously. I still ponder whether this is a reason for the wizard class and/or concept to get tweaked. There has always been something somewhat dissatisfying to me about the class. Only 4 spells per level (plus int mod of course), few abilities, and spells pre-selected. The only real merit is the theoretically infinite spell list. I have seen many many house rules on wizards, from spell point systems, to memorizing spells, but not forgetting them (so you can memorize 4 spells, and cast 4 spells, but you can mix and match inside those 4). Anyone have a favourite house rule in this regard. The class becomes a bit cooler when you factor a prestige class in, since many still allow spell progressiont to continue, but a class shouldn't need a prestige class to validate itself (and most of them can be used by sorcerers as well)
scienceman47 07-19-06, 03:20 PM	Hah, a thread about "wizards are teh suck", what a delightful change of pace. Wizards are cool man. The ability to craft and scribe scrolls really allows the wizard to try out niche spells that are very useful but not on a regular basis. And the int stat is mighty handy. And they get a total of five bonus feats. Your okay with it after a while, the wizard and sorceror are both effective and enjoyable to play. Sorcerors still should get "eschew materials" at some level though, if only for flavor purposes.
Pyke_Moonshadow 07-19-06, 03:28 PM	Sorcerors still should get "eschew materials" at some level though, if only for flavor purposes. I agree completely although most of the DMs I know never even use material components/foci.
Xeros 07-19-06, 03:36 PM	oh yeah, if I DM'd, I would give all casters eschew materials for free. Low cost components do not add to the magic using game experience as far as I am concerned. I have never yet met a dm that actually tracked components (though some still use it, they are happy to let the player just have a mish mash of everything they need, so it's only an issue if they are stripped naked). Personally, I would just remove the M component from every spell if the M is worth less than 1gp, or is clearly a component of the spell (as in the point of the spell, like a spell that throws an arrow should not conjrue that arrow)
Milo HoBo 07-19-06, 06:50 PM	I know the Wu Jen uses a spell book, at least the version in the Complete Arcane, but the Shujenja does too? I know two versions of each class exists, one in the Complete Series and another in the Oriental Adventures. The Archavist as already mentioned. In my upcoming game, my DM and I have rewritten the Binder to include a 'spellbook'. Basically containing the seals, special requirments, and other bits of important information. I can't imagine there being too many book casters. I have borrowed the ideas of Jaerom and Eyeless Blonde to come up with a variant to meet my needs, but haven't every played or DMed one.