Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kromlech06 01-13-07, 12:28 AM	Upon being given an option to switch out a maneuver for another one, can a new maneuver meet its own prerequisite? Let's say I have only 1 White Raven maneuver and I want to swap it for White Raven Tactics, a maneuver which requires 1 White Raven maneuver known, is this legal? Also, if possible, can anyone find official proof/ruling for or against this? Thanks in advance to everyone who gives insight on this.
Tempest Stormwind 01-13-07, 12:42 AM	Upon being given an option to switch out a maneuver for another one, can a new maneuver meet its own prerequisite? Let's say I have only 1 White Raven maneuver and I want to swap it for White Raven Tactics, a maneuver which requires 1 White Raven maneuver known, is this legal? Also, if possible, can anyone find official proof/ruling for or against this? Thanks in advance to everyone who gives insight on this. No, although you could learn White Raven Tactics if you learn a maneuver at that level, and then remove the White Raven maneuver that you used as its prerequisite. From there on out, you could choose maneuvers that need "one White Raven maneuver" using White Raven Tactics as that maneuver. Prereqs only seem to apply to LEARNING maneuvers, not using, so the above trick checks out. CustServ agrees, oddly enough. I'll find a link soon.
Munchmausen 01-13-07, 01:37 AM	My understanding is the same as Tempest's on both counts.
VonRichthofen 01-13-07, 04:12 AM	I second the view of my forespeakers. Explanation is simple: As soon as you trade away yourt first White Raven maneuver, you don no longer meet the prerequistes for the second one and thus lose it. Look at the way feats et. al. are handled: If your Strength drops to 12, your Power Attack becomes unusable, since you don't meet the prerequistes any longer - only difference with maneuvers is that once you have them, they're there. But you still have to acquire them legally.
malisteen 01-13-07, 07:28 AM	remember that stances also help you qualify for maneuvers, which may make meeting those requirements easier. You could trade your only white-raven maneuver for white raven tactics if you happen to also learn a white raven stance at that level. But yeah, you should assume you lose the maneuver you're swapping out before you gain the maneuver you're trading for.
Tempest Stormwind 01-13-07, 01:05 PM	I second the view of my forespeakers. Explanation is simple: As soon as you trade away yourt first White Raven maneuver, you don no longer meet the prerequistes for the second one and thus lose it. Look at the way feats et. al. are handled: If your Strength drops to 12, your Power Attack becomes unusable, since you don't meet the prerequistes any longer - only difference with maneuvers is that once you have them, they're there. But you still have to acquire them legally. Incorrect on the bold part. If I'm a warblade who knows Douse the Flames, and take White Raven Tactics as a learned maneuver when I could normally learn another manevuer, all is perfectly legal. If I later remove Douse the Flames for another maneuver, I retain the ability to use White Raven Tactics. The only time prerequisites ever show up would be on learning the maneuver, not keeping or using it. Maneuvers are not feats; do not carry rules from feats on to them. (I understand that your post on the whole is correct; that one tiny bit isn't and confuses the whole issue.)