Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aggrenox 01-18-07, 05:14 PM	How about classes that use, stance/boost/manuvers that are mage like and don't require weapons, So sort of up the ability powers, and lower the classes natual fighting capabilities. The main focus is the ability to gain the abilities back for future fights. (I will post more after formating and such)
DarknessEternal 01-18-07, 06:09 PM	You mean like Swordsage alreaedy does?
Aggrenox 01-18-07, 06:26 PM	No it still requires melee combat. But more of the same. Not using the same paths, I'm working on some samples now.
Phelot_Plaguecrafter 01-18-07, 07:39 PM	Tome of Battle, Book of Nine Swords, created to give lowly melee attackers the ability to truly pump out the cool stuff the way casters do, and in similar format. To bring melee attackers truly up to the ranged attackers level. I have an idea. Let's take all that was made to make melee attackers better and give it to ranged attackers! Ahh yes, that would be both necessary AND balanced. What a good idea I have just been blessed with. Now I don't even NEED the fighter to thanklessly soak up damage for me. I can just use maneuvers in conjunction with my already powerful abilities! Perfect. All is right in the world now. Thank you Aggrenox, you have opened my eyes.
Edea 01-18-07, 08:01 PM	...they're called "spells." If you want to regenerate said spells more often than once per day per spell slot, refer to Unearthed Arcana for good advice.
kadeity 01-18-07, 08:09 PM	On page 20 of the T.O.B. at the end of the Swordsage section it has a paragraph titles "Adaptation" that mentions making a caster swordsage. You can give it the ability to learn spells from the schools of Abjuration, Evocation & Transmutation instead of any martial maneuvers of the same levels, if you remove the light armor proficiency and change the Hit Die to D6. You lose Acess to the Nine disciplines, but you can now use those spells PER ENCOUNTER, and regain them. we did just that in my campaign and call it a SpellSage. :P Stances Are any Spell you can cast on yourself(range of personal), and once you learn it as a stance, you can ONLY cast it on yourself. Anything that applies to stances applies to these spells. Weapon focus becomes "spell focus" Insightful strikes becomes "Insightful casting" (works very similar to the warmages cha mod bonus on damage) Defensive Stance means that you get a +2 to saves whenever you use a "stance spell". All the other abilities work the same... but the Dual Boost 20th level ability...ive got no clue what to do with that.
Aggrenox 01-19-07, 11:04 AM	Twin spell. Thanks this is exactly what I was talking about. And ToB is in no way balanced. I am a quite expierianced gamer and I have Dm'd many games. I have an Idea of game balance, TOB ruins that for me. The presence of these characters have destroyed the little balance 3.5 had.
mittenninja 01-19-07, 11:15 AM	And ToB is in no way balanced. I am a quite expierianced gamer and I have Dm'd many games. I have an Idea of game balance, TOB ruins that for me. The presence of these characters have destroyed the little balance 3.5 had. As I myself have said, and seen many others say as well, on paper the ToB classes look overpowered. But actually play/dm one and you'll see that they arn't. I'm currently playing a crusader and in the campaign im running there are numerous PCs and NPCs using the ToB material, and in no way has it broken the game or made anyone feel like they were playing with/against something overpowered.
claypigeons 01-19-07, 11:30 AM	And ToB is in no way balanced. I am a quite expierianced gamer and I have Dm'd many games. I have an Idea of game balance, TOB ruins that for me. The presence of these characters have destroyed the little balance 3.5 had. Have you actually read the book? ToB brings a few melee classes to the table that are a little better than the norm, but still lag far behind casters. How that ruins balance is beyond me...
Aggrenox 01-19-07, 01:44 PM	I have run 2 campaigns since the release of the book and had 4 PC's play as the classes. I read the book, I played the character I ran the game. The classes are far to powerful. Sorry. Frankly I'm tired of these classes being the only thing that player want to play. Some of my older players, are refusing to play in games with the classes as they DOMINATE combat, not allowing for others to share in the fun.
Aggrenox 01-19-07, 01:44 PM	And by "Lag behind" you mean "replace" right? Anyway the point of this thread was to discuss additions to the playstyle of the Tob Classes. They play far differently than standard classes. I was thinking of addendums to the system. Producing classes in style that the classes in this book were inpired. Final fantasy, Manga, that kinda stuff. Where is my black mage I SAY!
RadicalTaoist 01-19-07, 01:48 PM	Dude, core-only casters can dominate ToB-based characters. And I'm not talking about the Enchantment spell.
Witch 01-19-07, 01:54 PM	The problem with the ToB classes is that they are far more powerful than other characters when relatively unoptimized. However, when you optimize both, they're generally equal.
archcomponent 01-19-07, 03:00 PM	I am a quite expierianced gamer and I have Dm'd many games. I have an Idea of game balance, TOB ruins that for me. What, are you 'expierianced' in games where all the players love to play casters who actively attempt to neuter themselves at every turn? Because if you are saying that in all of your previous games that all the casters were much weaker than this going all the way through to high level, I would really like to sit in and watch for a chuckle.
Aggrenox 01-19-07, 03:37 PM	What, are you 'expierianced' in games where all the players love to play casters who actively attempt to neuter themselves at every turn? Because if you are saying that in all of your previous games that all the casters were much weaker than this going all the way through to high level, I would really like to sit in and watch for a chuckle. Wow. Thanks. That was right on topic and helped out a bunch. Anyway. The classes from ToB are far worse in a prolonged dungeon crawl, or in a campaign with numerous encounters in a single day. While I never said the abilties themselves were far stronger than spells, The spells are once a day, the manuers are not, and are not even limited to once per encounter. Take the Desert Wind fire cone ability. Use that 8-9 times in one day and calculate the amount of damage capability compared to a equal level caster. The caster has run out of spells long ago, and the ToB class is still going and stacking the damage on.
OneWinged4ngel 01-19-07, 03:42 PM	Aggrenox, if you honestly think that ToB classes are more powerful than casters, you obviously do not have an experienced group, or at least if they have played a long time they have not developed the nescessary skills to play a character effectively. Quite simply, casters trump ToB hands down. If your players knew how to use spells intelligently, you would see that.
OneWinged4ngel 01-19-07, 03:45 PM	The problem with the ToB classes is that they are far more powerful than other characters when relatively unoptimized. However, when you optimize both, they're generally equal. Possibly. But to an "experienced" group not everyone should be so completely unoptimized as for this to be the case.
Sphere 01-19-07, 03:52 PM	Reserve feats. All day long spellcastng power so long as you have one spell available. Also, the Warlock and Dragon Shaman classes have powers that last all day and can be reused all day long.
Need_A_Life 01-19-07, 03:52 PM	Well, most people are a bit scared with the fighting classes becoming so powerful. I get that. Hey, that was my first response too. I looked at an ability that said "+100 damage" that could be applied to a melee attack and I shuddered. But using only Core books, a wizard can easily (read: by using a little caution and tactics) destroy a dozen Swordsages, Crusaders or Warblades (or any combination thereof). Add in Races of the Dragon and the Sorcerer becomes the most powerful class in the game anyway *cough*Wings of Cover*cough* and a level 1 sor/wiz spell is basically instant death for ANY challenge that CR (Power Word: Pain). I played a level 26 sorcerer at one point (yes, the campaign had progressed from level 1 to 26 over the course of YEARS, and none of the original characters were alive at this point. I was one of the people who suggested that we reboot, seeing as how I basically spent my round wondering: "Should I end this combat now, or should I give these people a chance, as my DM has worked for hours on these things?" Spellcasters will ALWAYS dominate non-spellcasters. This way non-spellcasters can at least fight back.
Aggrenox 01-19-07, 04:04 PM	Aggrenox, if you honestly think that ToB classes are more powerful than casters, you obviously do not have an experienced group, or at least if they have played a long time they have not developed the nescessary skills to play a character effectively. Quite simply, casters trump ToB hands down. If your players knew how to use spells intelligently, you would see that Wow, more harsh words. It sounds like some of you don't know how to not powergame. Have you all heard of a thing called SR? Do you play DND? There are supposed to be challenges. Your not supposed to just try to win at DND. So far I'll I can tell is that by "expirienced" you all mean "munchkins". Also this isn't a Japanese manga, my 5th and 6th level characters don't need to be taking on tarasque to be challenged.
TimeDaemon 01-19-07, 04:06 PM	Casters will always rule other characters because the amount of options available to them exceeds those of the non-casters. Any group with creativity will eventually find that the casters dominate the game. In our group, players would eventually only play non-casters if they had significant RP reasons to do so, and no one would ever play a fighter for more than 4 levels. Playing a non-caster melee character often meant playing some form of rogue to get sneak attack damage so that they could keep up with the casters a little bit better. Usually the melee characters were clerics or druids. Book of Nine Swords changed all of that. We can finally play melee characters that don't blow! They still lag behind the casters, but they at least make you feel like they are worth something after about eight levels. In no way are ToB characters overpowered verses casters, and giving casters a recharge mechanic like ToB characters would significantly increase the already large power gap between them and any melee characters. All those people who cry about the ToB characters being overpowered should play with some of the wizards in my group, not to mention CoDzilla, for a little while. Then tell me what is ballanced, core only, or core + ToB.
kadeity 01-19-07, 04:10 PM	since im the only person who didnt get sucked into a paper-rock-scissors of which classes are broke and which ones arent..... since im the only one who made an awesome suggestion, and stayed on topic... since im just the friendliest guy around.... I WIN THIS THREAD.
Aggrenox 01-19-07, 04:11 PM	Core only - powergaming.
TimeDaemon 01-19-07, 04:12 PM	I guess that it is a good thing there are other threads to win, because I HATE LOSING!!! Congrats on your win kadeity.
Grand Theft Otto 01-19-07, 04:14 PM	Twin spell. Thanks this is exactly what I was talking about. And ToB is in no way balanced. I am a quite expierianced gamer and I have Dm'd many games. I have an Idea of game balance, TOB ruins that for me. The presence of these characters have destroyed the little balance 3.5 had. Because if a guy does something without a spell, its considered overpowered. :rolleyes: Blamy Gygax for infusing the notion that non-casters should be useless in an entire generation of gamers.
Aggrenox 01-19-07, 04:15 PM	:cookie: <- Yours Kadiety.
Seerow 01-19-07, 04:16 PM	Wow, more harsh words. Your actions have warranted them. You insist to be experienced and have a grasp on game balance, while simultaneously denouncing the first supplement Wizards has released to try to bring melee classes up to par with spellcasters. Tell me, do you think Fighter20 is a balanced class? It sounds like some of you don't know how to not powergame. Have you all heard of a thing called SR? Do you play DND? There are supposed to be challenges. Your not supposed to just try to win at DND. Of course you're not supposed to just try to win. But you are expected to be good at what you do. Re: SR-Have you heard of AC? Funny thing is, more monsters have AC than SR last I checked. And here's the great thing about it, Casters have a feat that they can get that lets them take 10 on every spell resistance check ever. That's right, no more problems with SR unless it's more than your level+10. Look through the MM, and tell me how many you find that have SR11+CR or better So far I'll I can tell is that by "expirienced" you all mean "munchkins". No. That would be us telling you that the Cheater of Mystra dominates everything, while the Omnifiscer destroys your challenges before you've thought them up. We're talking basic game experience and mediocre optimization. Taking feats, skills, and abilities, that both fit your concept and make you better at what you do. Or is your idea of fun playing a Fighter with skill focus(basket weaving)? Also this isn't a Japanese manga, my 5th and 6th level characters don't need to be taking on tarasque to be challenged. Who ever said that was the case? I for one abhor manga, and other japanese artforms, and certainly would never use the Tarrrasque against a low level party save as a story measure.
Phelot_Plaguecrafter 01-19-07, 04:17 PM	I find the opinion of ToB varies dependant on the kind of player who reads it. I know, that sounds too simple, but hear me out: Someone who normally plays a Sorceror looks at it and goes, "SHAT!", while someone who plays a fighter looks at it and goes, "BOSS!" No one likes to say it aloud, but everyone is at least a little glory hungry in DnD. The optimized caster always wants to get the kill, and the optimized fighter wants to get the kill. The issue with this is that the sorceror getting the kill to the fighter getting the kill ratio was probably 4 or 5 to 1. The fighter is important, but the sorceror almost ALWAYS got the kill. ToB said, "Herm. How can we fix that? Oh, cool, why not give that fighter the ability to kill things once and again?" So they did. And so that sorceror looks at it and goes, "Damnit, I can't stand to have the glory ripped away..." and so he looks for a way to say that ToB is unblanced. Or he looks for a way to (not unlike this post) give casters MORE power so as to keep them in their little bit higher place on the shelf. Now, I'm not accusing any ToB nay-sayers of being power hungry optimists...But...I'll admit that in my experience, 90% of them have been. Now with that being said, I submit this: With these ToB classes being played more and more frequently, that kill ratio has gone from about 4-5:1 to 2:1. A caster is generally STILL better at pumping out raw damage, utility, and just flat out useful stuff. But, I suppose optimists aren't satisfied with a 2:1. Oh well. My two cents.
Grand Theft Otto 01-19-07, 04:17 PM	Wow. Thanks. That was right on topic and helped out a bunch. Anyway. The classes from ToB are far worse in a prolonged dungeon crawl, or in a campaign with numerous encounters in a single day. While I never said the abilties themselves were far stronger than spells, The spells are once a day, the manuers are not, and are not even limited to once per encounter. Take the Desert Wind fire cone ability. Use that 8-9 times in one day and calculate the amount of damage capability compared to a equal level caster. The caster has run out of spells long ago, and the ToB class is still going and stacking the damage on. And how many times have they scried, teleported, or asked a diety for advice? Fighting classes should always outdamage classes with more utility, every round, all day long, no questions asked.
red_scare87 01-19-07, 04:23 PM	The main focus is the ability to gain the abilities back for future fights. Or you could play a Warlock. They can use their abilities as many times as they want in each encounter with no limit. Wait, I guess that means they're broken. Nevermind.
Aggrenox 01-19-07, 04:26 PM	Because if a guy does something without a spell, its considered overpowered. Blamy Gygax for infusing the notion that non-casters should be useless in an entire generation of gamers. No no no no, you missunderstand me. I want to make a mage-like class that will fit in with a ToB campaign. Not a standard game. I'm not looking for a global fix or whatnot. This part goes out to everone on this thread. Some of us game differently than others. Not everyone of my players wants thier mage to be the Crazy Explodie Elminster-clone. Some do. Some want to play a character that fits along the play style of ToB. If you read ToB's flavor and intro you would see that it is an entirly different play style. Some of them want to emulate characters like Final Fantasy's ViVi and Terra. Some of them want to play a chracter like a warlock, but less goth, and less, well dark. I thought that this kind of character should have been touched on already. When I think of mages I think of someone who can tap into the essence of magic, at will, without worry of how many times he touched that part of it and said that word. I don't see how having an ability similar to magic missle, without the instant hit or the scaling of power by level that you can use once, then spend an action to meditate it back. (1d4 ranged touch) is not that overpowered but is akin to the powers of ToB Classes. Alot of people sound like I don't think that mages are overpowered. But in the wrong hands a ToB character can be DEVISTATING to a well balanced campaign. I just wanted to develope a caster like class that would fit into a campaign tailored to ToB.
Aggrenox 01-19-07, 04:29 PM	Or is your idea of fun playing a Fighter with skill focus(basket weaving)? Yes, why my god heaven forbid! That might be roleplaying!
BobSutan 01-19-07, 04:33 PM	...they're called "spells." If you want to regenerate said spells more often than once per day per spell slot, refer to Unearthed Arcana for good advice. http://www.lan-slam.com/misc/werd.jpg Unearthed Arcana is what you need to look at. Lots of interesting things there that might satisfy what you're looking for.
Phelot_Plaguecrafter 01-19-07, 04:39 PM	This part goes out to everone on this thread. Some of us game differently than others. Not everyone of my players wants thier mage to be the Crazy Explodie Elminster-clone. Some do. Some want to play a character that fits along the play style of ToB. If you read ToB's flavor and intro you would see that it is an entirly different play style. Some of them want to emulate characters like Final Fantasy's ViVi and Terra. Some of them want to play a chracter like a warlock, but less goth, and less, well dark. I thought that this kind of character should have been touched on already. When I think of mages I think of someone who can tap into the essence of magic, at will, without worry of how many times he touched that part of it and said that word. I don't see how having an ability similar to magic missle, without the instant hit or the scaling of power by level that you can use once, then spend an action to meditate it back. (1d4 ranged touch) is not that overpowered but is akin to the powers of ToB Classes. Alot of people sound like I don't think that mages are overpowered. But in the wrong hands a ToB character can be DEVISTATING to a well balanced campaign. I just wanted to develope a caster like class that would fit into a campaign tailored to ToB. I absolutely agree. For the record, Jade Phoenix Mage and Ruby Knight Vindicator are two prestige classes that count as both casters and martal adepts. I'm thinking maybe a cool way you could do what you're trying to do would be to sacrifice one of the maneuvers you know for the rest of the day, and recharge a spell for one more use. Essentially, give up a maneuver for the day, and get a spell for the encounter. Pretty much a tradeoff between the two. Maybe a little busted, but I think it's a cool plan. Try it out, I say.
RadicalTaoist 01-19-07, 05:23 PM	Before people cry the fallacy that I've spent way too many damn hours defending recently, look at what Aggrenox is actually asking for. His beef isn't with ToB, it's with per-encounter balancing. He wants per-encounter-balanced casters. I believe Otto the Bugbear may have been working on something like that. An idea I would suggest is taking a page from the Tales games by Namco and allowing recovery of a few spell slots after a battle, then drastically lowering spell slots (because you can regain them). So if you only have one fight a day, you can't cast that many spells a day. If you have many fights a day, you'll be able to cast many more (because you recover some after each fight) but still need to conserve and use smart tactics. I hope that helps. ToB is balanced with regard to monsters of equivalent CR, and optimizing is not mutually exclusive with roleplaying. But that's neither here nor there in this discussion. Helping the OP alter the game the way he wants is the thing.
OneWinged4ngel 01-19-07, 05:40 PM	Yes, why my god heaven forbid! That might be roleplaying! Actually, having Skill Focus (Basket Weaving) has nothing at all to do with roleplaying in any direct fashion. Indeed, it has no more inherent RP value than taking something like "Power Attack." However, switching casters to a "per encounter" sort of balance is indeed a valid pursuit. :) Anyways, it is worth noting that this is can be a tricky proposition, especially considering the incredible power of some spells and the great number of spells that have a great deal of use outside of battle... which would mean that many "refreshing" techniques wouldn't really be logical. And again, ToB is not overpowered compared to casters. Indeed, many will tell you that casters are still safely in the top tier of the power scale, while maneuver-users tend to occupy the upper-middle ... Lastly, didn't Bo9S have an arcane swordsage variant?
Sphere 01-19-07, 05:50 PM	No no no no, you missunderstand me. I want to make a mage-like class that will fit in with a ToB campaign. Not a standard game. I'm not looking for a global fix or whatnot. This part goes out to everone on this thread. Some of us game differently than others. Not everyone of my players wants thier mage to be the Crazy Explodie Elminster-clone. Some do. Some want to play a character that fits along the play style of ToB. If you read ToB's flavor and intro you would see that it is an entirly different play style. Some of them want to emulate characters like Final Fantasy's ViVi and Terra. Some of them want to play a chracter like a warlock, but less goth, and less, well dark. I thought that this kind of character should have been touched on already. When I think of mages I think of someone who can tap into the essence of magic, at will, without worry of how many times he touched that part of it and said that word. I don't see how having an ability similar to magic missle, without the instant hit or the scaling of power by level that you can use once, then spend an action to meditate it back. (1d4 ranged touch) is not that overpowered but is akin to the powers of ToB Classes. Alot of people sound like I don't think that mages are overpowered. But in the wrong hands a ToB character can be DEVISTATING to a well balanced campaign. I just wanted to develope a caster like class that would fit into a campaign tailored to ToB. Try reserve feats for mechanics on how to produce magic at will without expending resources. Try UA or psionics for "mana points" systems. For flavor just rename stuff. Change the warlock into a "Happy Mage", renaming eldritch blast "Care Bear Stare" and invocations become "The Power of Imagination". Then have "Happy Mages" gain power from happiness and sunshine rather than dubious dark sources requires very minimal mechanical work.
DarknessEternal 01-19-07, 06:35 PM	Lastly, didn't Bo9S have an arcane swordsage variant? Reasons to laugh at the absurdity of that variant: Inprisonment Mage's Disjunction Shapechange Compared to those, Meteor Swarm every other round (which it also allows) seems positively tame.
OneWinged4ngel 01-19-07, 06:38 PM	Reasons to laugh at the absurdity of that variant: Inprisonment Mage's Disjunction Shapechange Compared to those, Meteor Swarm every other round (which it also allows) seems positively tame. Yeah, but the afforementioned spells (and others) are also the things that make spellcasters positively more powerful than Bo9S classes :P
Aggrenox 01-19-07, 06:46 PM	For flavor just rename stuff. Change the warlock into a "Happy Mage", renaming eldritch blast "Care Bear Stare" and invocations become "The Power of Imagination". Then have "Happy Mages" gain power from happiness and sunshine rather than dubious dark sources requires very minimal mechanical work. :heehee That is awsome. Sir, I salute. In what I am suggesting, I would never use the standard sorc/wiz spell list. That would be retarded. They would still have access to it, but far fewer times perday.
claypigeons 01-19-07, 07:29 PM	In what I am suggesting, I would never use the standard sorc/wiz spell list. That would be retarded. They would still have access to it, but far fewer times perday. I would leave wizards as they are. Sorcerers, or... Swordsage-orcerers would have 2, maybe 3 spells per level per encounter. This would recharge after a few moments outside combat. I'm not sure about spells known though... but giving a swordsage-orcerer (the battlesorcerer that doesnt suck!) too many spells known would make them rock quite hard.
Seerow 01-19-07, 07:53 PM	Agg, I'm sorry, I kind of lashed out. Saying ToB makes the game a new power scale tends to do that. However, if what you are looking for is an Arcane caster who can use his abilities on a per encounter basis, I have a personal idea I've been wanting to playtest for some time that sort of does that as you get to higher levels. The idea is, for the first three levels the Wizard stays the same. Same spells per day, etc. At level 3, he gets his Cantrips castable on a per encounter basis. At level 7 he gets 1st level spells on a per encounter basis At level 11 he gets 2nd level spells on a per encounter basis At level 15 he gets 3rd level spells At level 19 he gets 4th level spells. Now, to recompense for this extra power, higher level spells get more heavily restricted. The Spells per day table is altered so you get between 0-2 castings of your top tier spells (the 0 castings can be made up for by exceptional ability scores) I'm too lazy to find the exact table, if you're interested from this much, I can go dig it up for you. The basic idea is to actually restrict the power of high level casters, by limiting their higher level spells per day, the ones that actually break the game. Meanwhile the lower level spells nobody really cares about can now be used regularly, so the caster can always be doing something magical. As a note, by per encounter I mean he studies, meditates, prays, whatever, for 10 minutes to regain his spells. This prevents -most- buff spell abuse.
dolphin49 01-20-07, 09:51 AM	last time i checked wotc gave caster manuvers. there called reserve feats. you complain about tob. if its so unbalanced why are you trying to give it to the most powerful classes in the game?. it seems to me your just a person who will do anything to promote casters and kill mele people. if you are allowing reserve feats in your games then you should have no problem with tob, reserve feats are like very similar to manuvers, and they get stronger the stronger you get.
Crimson_Concerto 01-20-07, 11:23 AM	For flavor just rename stuff. Change the warlock into a "Happy Mage", renaming eldritch blast "Care Bear Stare" and invocations become "The Power of Imagination". Then have "Happy Mages" gain power from happiness and sunshine rather than dubious dark sources requires very minimal mechanical work. That's the greatest thing I ever heard, and I agree 100%! :clap: ToB classes are not overpowered. Really, compare a Warblade to a Barbarian, and you will find that while the Warblade may be just the slightest bit stronger, it's not enough to say it's broken or even really overpowered. Seriously, if you would actually just sit down and look beyond the knee-jerk reaction, you may see that. What ToB classes do is make melee characters FUN to play. They give you something different to do other than to just keep repeating "I full attack again!" Don't be afraid of ToB just because it's different. Different is GOOD here! Back on topic, I think a "per encounter" method of dealing with casting may be an interesting idea. As has been previously stated, the Swordsage has some options, but remember that it doesn't have access to ALL the sorcerer/wizard spells, only Abjurations, Evocations, and Transmutations with ranges of Personal and Touch. To do this, it has to go down to a D6 HD and give up its armor. However, to me anyways, this means they also don't really have access to any stances or Discepline Foci, since they have no disceplines or stances to pick from. They'd also lose out on Duel Boost since, again, they have no boosts to pick from. Do I think them losing all this stuff is a problem? Absolutely not. Why? Because Maneuvers are A LOT weaker than spells of the same level, and it's not so close a gap that the armor and HD loss will make up for it. If you want to use the Spellsage variant, I really would not redo any of their class features.
Golem011 01-20-07, 11:58 AM	Twin spell. Thanks this is exactly what I was talking about. And ToB is in no way balanced. I am a quite expierianced gamer and I have Dm'd many games. I have an Idea of game balance, TOB ruins that for me. The presence of these characters have destroyed the little balance 3.5 had. I'm sorry... I haven't even read the rest of the thread by this point, but this requires an answer. ToB classes, you see, ARE balanced. Unlike the fighter/barbarian and paladin/ranger to some extent, they do match up to spellcasters at later levels. You actually feel like you have a USE being a melee character, and all without the copious amounts of magic items required normally.
Crashy75 01-20-07, 02:23 PM	No no no no, you missunderstand me. I want to make a mage-like class that will fit in with a ToB campaign. Not a standard game. I'm not looking for a global fix or whatnot... Now that sounds interesting. What have you got?
Golem011 01-20-07, 02:30 PM	Yes, what've you got?
megageek12 01-20-07, 03:19 PM	Look, it's called the "Tome" series, and Tome of Magic is Tob's magical counterpart. I understand what you want to do but it just doesn't work with the spells in 3.5. Maybe in the improbable and mythical 4e.