Book of nine for Monks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Book of nine for Monks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sluggo
04-07-07, 08:56 AM I would love a book of nine made specificlly for monks and their open hand fighting styles.

I would re-work the Monk class or ad some Monk Prestige classes to take advantage of the stance and manuver system that the book of nine introduced.
Batshido
04-07-07, 09:11 AM I would love a book of nine made specificlly for monks and their open hand fighting styles.

I would re-work the Monk class or ad some Monk Prestige classes to take advantage of the stance and manuver system that the book of nine introduced.

I have just houseruled that a monk can replace his 3 bonus feats with Martial Training at 1st and 6th level and with Martial Stance at 2nd Level. And I allow them to act as though they were full initiators with this, so that the 6th level bonus feat could be a 3rd level manuever.
Fallenangel359
04-07-07, 09:12 AM By taking 2 levels of monk, and then going into swordsage, your initiator level is only 1 behind where it should be. Most swordsage disciplines have unarmed strike as a favored weapon. You could then take superior unarmed strike as a feat, to makeup for the lost unarmed attack damage. Stack it with a monk's belt. 2 level of monk attacking as a 11th level monk, with martial strike maneuvers.
Toxic_Shaman
04-07-07, 09:20 AM Just use the Swordsage variant. Setting Sun represents Soft martial arts pretty well, and Diamond Mind is good for simulating Mind over Body things.
sluggo
04-07-07, 09:40 AM Just use the Swordsage variant. Setting Sun represents Soft martial arts pretty well, and Diamond Mind is good for simulating Mind over Body things.

I know you could use the Book of Nine for the monk, I just think giving them their own book would add a lot more to the class, rather then trying to dupclate it with another class.
Batshido
04-07-07, 09:47 AM I know you could use the Book of Nine for the monk, I just think giving them their own book would add a lot more to the class.

The monks have already gotten a lot of love from WoTC. They've gotten something in each of the complete books, an upgrade (I feel) in PHB2 with decisive strike, not to mention the alternate fighting schools and abilities from Dragon Magic and Unearthed Arcana. Oh, and every third article ever published in Dragon Magazine.

The monk's not lacking for depth. Power, maybe. Not depth.
IonizedChicken
04-07-07, 09:53 AM You could make a fine Monk character without any Monk levels at all. You could choose the unarmed strike Swordsage variant or just wear a Monk's Belt. Hell, one of my characters is a Monk without actual levels in the class itself.
Ulandorf_TheBlue
04-07-07, 10:01 AM is this 'unarmed strike Swordsage variant' something on the boards? or is it in a book? and someone mentioned after two levels of monk you're only 1 initiator level behind?
sluggo
04-07-07, 10:03 AM not to mention the alternate fighting schools and abilities from Dragon Magic and Unearthed Arcana
I have not seen these, what are they?
Tempest Stormwind
04-07-07, 11:26 AM is this 'unarmed strike Swordsage variant' something on the boards? or is it in a book? It's right there in the Tome of Battle, under "adaptation". Essentially, scrap their armor proficiency and give them monk unarmed damage. Flashing Sun or the Snap Kick feat become the equivalent of Flurry, a couple Desert Wind and Diamond Mind maneuvers (mundane ones; the supernatural complaint about Desert Wind doesn't apply here) cover for the speed bonus, Stone Dragon or Tiger Claw maneuvers can make a passable Improved Grapple (or you can just take that feat anyway!), Shadow Hand teleports become Abundant Step, and the later monk abilities aren't worth mentioning.

Even if you don't use the variant, you can still use those options above with the Superior Unarmed Strike feat (Also in the ToB) to give a standard swordsage an almost monklike unarmed strike progression without a single variant rule used.

Just call the swordsage a "monk", and focus on Diamond Mind (mind over body), Stone Dragon (heavy ki-infused hits and conditioning), Tiger Claw (acrobatics), and/or Setting Sun (soft martial arts, something the monk has been trying and failing to do since Oriental Adventures or even Sword and Fist!).and someone mentioned after two levels of monk you're only 1 initiator level behind?Yep. Your initiator level for any given class is that class' level plus half your other levels.

In one of my current games, we have a character who started as a Ninja 2 / Monk 2, and took a level of swordsage. Despite being a level 1 swordsage, his initiator level was (1 + 0.5(4) = ) 3, meaning he could choose 2nd level maneuvers with his opening level of swordsage. This was at character level 5, where straightclassed swordsages have access to 3rd level maneuvers.

The Tome of Battle multiclasses very well.

I have not seen these, what are they?http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantF ightingStyles
IonizedChicken
04-07-07, 11:29 AM It's worth noting though that since the variant is noted in such an out-of-the-way manner some DMs might not agree to it.
Besides, an exchange of light armor prof. (underpowered feat) for a class feature is probably not one of the more balanced ones.
Tempest Stormwind
04-07-07, 11:36 AM It's worth noting though that since the variant is noted in such an out-of-the-way manner some DMs might not agree to it.
Besides, an exchange of light armor prof. (underpowered feat) for a class feature is probably not one of the more balanced ones.

A better argument against the variant would be that it's listed in the same paragraph as a woefully underspecified one that gives the swordsage spells that operate as maneuvers. Time Stop every encounter? I think yes. (Yep, it doesn't define how many to give or if they scale or other critical info, but it's there.)

That said, you still don't need the variant to get the monk out of the swordsage. See my post above.
Iarmeister
04-07-07, 11:40 AM It's worth noting though that since the variant is noted in such an out-of-the-way manner some DMs might not agree to it.
Besides, an exchange of light armor prof. (underpowered feat) for a class feature is probably not one of the more balanced ones.

True. But compare it to the other spell-casting variant they suggest and most dm's would choose the unarmed strike vs LA proficiency trade any day.
Wraithwin
04-07-07, 11:43 AM I'm personally a big advocate of the "Shadowsun Ninja" PrC from ToB.

Go like, Monk4/Swordsage2, then enter Shadowsun Ninja.
You add your Shadowsun level to your Monk level when determining your class based AC bonus, unarmed damage progression, unarmored speed, and get this one... your penaltyon attacks while using flurry of blows! O.o;; This is the first PrC I've seen that increases Monk abilities and includes Flurry in them! Normally the other PrCs say "Except Flurry of Blows, etc etc".

Decent selections for maneuvers pre-prestige, and once you enter it continues to give you maneuvers if limited to two schools. As our friend above mentioned, Setting Sun is both interesting and in lines with martial arts. Shadowhand can be too, if not kinda creepy, plus you get to keep anything you had from other schools like Stone Dragon or Diamond Mind.

As an additional bonus, you could completely drop monk after those 4 levels. After you hit 4th, turn chaotic or any other derivation of good (as the PrC requires Good). You keep all your Monk benefits, and Shadowsun Ninja continues to improve them. Cap off with Swordsage for much fun. :) By 20th, you'll be roughly equivalent to a 14th level Monk and have access to maneuvers as a Swordsage with an effective initiator level of 18. I don't know about you, but that's pretty sweet to me.

I do like the idea of allowing a Monk to take Martial Study as their bonus feats though. Perhaps also house-rule that monks have a natural way to recover maneuvers? Perhaps like a swordsage. Hmm... Now I want to try and make a class like that... Heh.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sluggo 04-07-07, 08:56 AM	I would love a book of nine made specificlly for monks and their open hand fighting styles. I would re-work the Monk class or ad some Monk Prestige classes to take advantage of the stance and manuver system that the book of nine introduced.
Batshido 04-07-07, 09:11 AM	I would love a book of nine made specificlly for monks and their open hand fighting styles. I would re-work the Monk class or ad some Monk Prestige classes to take advantage of the stance and manuver system that the book of nine introduced. I have just houseruled that a monk can replace his 3 bonus feats with Martial Training at 1st and 6th level and with Martial Stance at 2nd Level. And I allow them to act as though they were full initiators with this, so that the 6th level bonus feat could be a 3rd level manuever.
Fallenangel359 04-07-07, 09:12 AM	By taking 2 levels of monk, and then going into swordsage, your initiator level is only 1 behind where it should be. Most swordsage disciplines have unarmed strike as a favored weapon. You could then take superior unarmed strike as a feat, to makeup for the lost unarmed attack damage. Stack it with a monk's belt. 2 level of monk attacking as a 11th level monk, with martial strike maneuvers.
Toxic_Shaman 04-07-07, 09:20 AM	Just use the Swordsage variant. Setting Sun represents Soft martial arts pretty well, and Diamond Mind is good for simulating Mind over Body things.
sluggo 04-07-07, 09:40 AM	Just use the Swordsage variant. Setting Sun represents Soft martial arts pretty well, and Diamond Mind is good for simulating Mind over Body things. I know you could use the Book of Nine for the monk, I just think giving them their own book would add a lot more to the class, rather then trying to dupclate it with another class.
Batshido 04-07-07, 09:47 AM	I know you could use the Book of Nine for the monk, I just think giving them their own book would add a lot more to the class. The monks have already gotten a lot of love from WoTC. They've gotten something in each of the complete books, an upgrade (I feel) in PHB2 with decisive strike, not to mention the alternate fighting schools and abilities from Dragon Magic and Unearthed Arcana. Oh, and every third article ever published in Dragon Magazine. The monk's not lacking for depth. Power, maybe. Not depth.
IonizedChicken 04-07-07, 09:53 AM	You could make a fine Monk character without any Monk levels at all. You could choose the unarmed strike Swordsage variant or just wear a Monk's Belt. Hell, one of my characters is a Monk without actual levels in the class itself.
Ulandorf_TheBlue 04-07-07, 10:01 AM	is this 'unarmed strike Swordsage variant' something on the boards? or is it in a book? and someone mentioned after two levels of monk you're only 1 initiator level behind?
sluggo 04-07-07, 10:03 AM	not to mention the alternate fighting schools and abilities from Dragon Magic and Unearthed Arcana I have not seen these, what are they?
Tempest Stormwind 04-07-07, 11:26 AM	is this 'unarmed strike Swordsage variant' something on the boards? or is it in a book? It's right there in the Tome of Battle, under "adaptation". Essentially, scrap their armor proficiency and give them monk unarmed damage. Flashing Sun or the Snap Kick feat become the equivalent of Flurry, a couple Desert Wind and Diamond Mind maneuvers (mundane ones; the supernatural complaint about Desert Wind doesn't apply here) cover for the speed bonus, Stone Dragon or Tiger Claw maneuvers can make a passable Improved Grapple (or you can just take that feat anyway!), Shadow Hand teleports become Abundant Step, and the later monk abilities aren't worth mentioning. Even if you don't use the variant, you can still use those options above with the Superior Unarmed Strike feat (Also in the ToB) to give a standard swordsage an almost monklike unarmed strike progression without a single variant rule used. Just call the swordsage a "monk", and focus on Diamond Mind (mind over body), Stone Dragon (heavy ki-infused hits and conditioning), Tiger Claw (acrobatics), and/or Setting Sun (soft martial arts, something the monk has been trying and failing to do since Oriental Adventures or even Sword and Fist!).and someone mentioned after two levels of monk you're only 1 initiator level behind?Yep. Your initiator level for any given class is that class' level plus half your other levels. In one of my current games, we have a character who started as a Ninja 2 / Monk 2, and took a level of swordsage. Despite being a level 1 swordsage, his initiator level was (1 + 0.5(4) = ) 3, meaning he could choose 2nd level maneuvers with his opening level of swordsage. This was at character level 5, where straightclassed swordsages have access to 3rd level maneuvers. The Tome of Battle multiclasses very well. I have not seen these, what are they?http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantF ightingStyles
IonizedChicken 04-07-07, 11:29 AM	It's worth noting though that since the variant is noted in such an out-of-the-way manner some DMs might not agree to it. Besides, an exchange of light armor prof. (underpowered feat) for a class feature is probably not one of the more balanced ones.
Tempest Stormwind 04-07-07, 11:36 AM	It's worth noting though that since the variant is noted in such an out-of-the-way manner some DMs might not agree to it. Besides, an exchange of light armor prof. (underpowered feat) for a class feature is probably not one of the more balanced ones. A better argument against the variant would be that it's listed in the same paragraph as a woefully underspecified one that gives the swordsage spells that operate as maneuvers. Time Stop every encounter? I think yes. (Yep, it doesn't define how many to give or if they scale or other critical info, but it's there.) That said, you still don't need the variant to get the monk out of the swordsage. See my post above.
Iarmeister 04-07-07, 11:40 AM	It's worth noting though that since the variant is noted in such an out-of-the-way manner some DMs might not agree to it. Besides, an exchange of light armor prof. (underpowered feat) for a class feature is probably not one of the more balanced ones. True. But compare it to the other spell-casting variant they suggest and most dm's would choose the unarmed strike vs LA proficiency trade any day.
Wraithwin 04-07-07, 11:43 AM	I'm personally a big advocate of the "Shadowsun Ninja" PrC from ToB. Go like, Monk4/Swordsage2, then enter Shadowsun Ninja. You add your Shadowsun level to your Monk level when determining your class based AC bonus, unarmed damage progression, unarmored speed, and get this one... your penaltyon attacks while using flurry of blows! O.o;; This is the first PrC I've seen that increases Monk abilities and includes Flurry in them! Normally the other PrCs say "Except Flurry of Blows, etc etc". Decent selections for maneuvers pre-prestige, and once you enter it continues to give you maneuvers if limited to two schools. As our friend above mentioned, Setting Sun is both interesting and in lines with martial arts. Shadowhand can be too, if not kinda creepy, plus you get to keep anything you had from other schools like Stone Dragon or Diamond Mind. As an additional bonus, you could completely drop monk after those 4 levels. After you hit 4th, turn chaotic or any other derivation of good (as the PrC requires Good). You keep all your Monk benefits, and Shadowsun Ninja continues to improve them. Cap off with Swordsage for much fun. :) By 20th, you'll be roughly equivalent to a 14th level Monk and have access to maneuvers as a Swordsage with an effective initiator level of 18. I don't know about you, but that's pretty sweet to me. I do like the idea of allowing a Monk to take Martial Study as their bonus feats though. Perhaps also house-rule that monks have a natural way to recover maneuvers? Perhaps like a swordsage. Hmm... Now I want to try and make a class like that... Heh.