Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BlackOracle 08-30-07, 11:56 PM	My DM thinks swordsage is the most broken/twink/munchkin class ever. I have tried to explain that it is just as balanced as any other class but he cannont see it. Maybe I am not coming across clearly. I would be appreciative if people could give me some straightfoward and clear arguements as to how swordsage is not a bad class. Thanks. BlackOracle
DX2052 08-31-07, 12:02 AM	My DM thinks swordsage is the most broken/twink/munchkin class ever. I have tried to explain that it is just as balanced as any other class but he cannont see it. Maybe I am not coming across clearly. I would be appreciative if people could give me some straightfoward and clear arguements as to how swordsage is not a bad class. Thanks. BlackOracle Play a CoDzilla or show him that example of a Barbarin out damageing them.
Salla 08-31-07, 12:11 AM	He's probably comparing it to the monk. It's better than the monk, but that's because the monk sucks. Has he actually seen one played correctly, obeying all the rules? A full round action to recover one maneuver (barring Adaptive Style)? Medium BAB? Reasonable stat acquisition? We can't give specific arguments to counter his without him saying anything specific about what he thinks is broken about the class. The fact that he doesn't do so leads me to believe that he's merely read the class, perhaps even skimmed it, and never actually seen it in play.
claypigeons 08-31-07, 12:19 AM	The classes from ToB are not overpowered. They are better than the fighter, but then again, what isn't? A barbarian still outdoes them in straight damage. And... to quote a CharOp board regular... When you get down to it though, here's what ToB ACTUALLY changes: 1. Makes DEX SAD builds soo much easier. 2. Facilitates the creation of AoOs 3. Offers more potent single attack options, such that warrior builds are no longer restrained to focusing on gaining full attacks. This in turn equates to higher mobility. 4. Offers the ability for warrior types to deal more than pure damage, additional effects include: stunning, dazing, instant death, immobilization, ability damage. 5. Grants warrior types the ability to make use of immediate and swift actions on a regular basis. Bottom line: it gives warriors more options. As is to be expected from a supplement for... you guessed it... warriors. So, basically, full casters still rule the game. But melee-based characters got a little boost.
Vaelan 08-31-07, 12:19 AM	The best argument is experience. Ask him to let you try it to see if it really pans out to be as good as he thinks.
Fenris_Lathiin 08-31-07, 12:52 AM	We could rattle off things like CoDzilla, Fabricate and casting Wish for free at level 11 all day, but I don't think any of that will convince the OP's DM. We need to know why the DM thinks that the Swordsage is so broken. So, what problems does your DM have with the Swordsage? Why does he think it's so broken? Does he have a problem with the Warblade or Crusader? Of course, on the other hand, has your DM looked at the Druid? I mean, full spellcasting and class abilities ever level, plus 3/4 base attack bonus and two good saves. That's probably the most munchkin class I've ever seen.
claypigeons 08-31-07, 01:16 AM	Of course, on the other hand, has your DM looked at the Druid? I mean, full spellcasting and class abilities ever level, plus 3/4 base attack bonus and two good saves. That's probably the most munchkin class I've ever seen. Wild Shape being one of those class abilities. Which is, in all honestly, probably the best class ability in the game (after 9th level spells, I guess).
Fenris_Lathiin 08-31-07, 01:45 AM	I don't know. I'm kind of partial to "I take two turns every round" with the animal companion. It's not as powerful as Wild Shape, but it does make the Druid ridiculously versitile right out of the box.
heftyj 08-31-07, 01:54 AM	He's probably comparing it to the monk. It's better than the monk, but that's because the monk sucks. Has he actually seen one played correctly, obeying all the rules? A full round action to recover one maneuver (barring Adaptive Style)? Medium BAB? Reasonable stat acquisition? We can't give specific arguments to counter his without him saying anything specific about what he thinks is broken about the class. The fact that he doesn't do so leads me to believe that he's merely read the class, perhaps even skimmed it, and never actually seen it in play. Monks only suck at low levels. Once they get to epic levels, well yeah they are awesome.
Shedeo 08-31-07, 02:21 AM	I love clerics at level 21, because they [can] have higher BAB than the fighter all day long! Anyway, the Swordsage is a great, solid class, but we really do need to know what about it seems so broken. What I find odd is that the example swordsage is using a bow. Not to say they can't, I just find it amusing that its a melee-based class, yanno?
BlackOracle 08-31-07, 02:56 AM	He has a problem with the fact that they get 2 good saves, second best skill points, second best attack bonus, their special abilites(wisdom to ac, weapon focus for 5 weapons at one level, wisdom to damage). Then he adds in the manuevers. His biggest problem with the manuevers is the 9th level Diamond Mind power that lets you make 2 full attacks in one round. My arguement is that you still have to hit the creature and a caster will still outdamage you but he doesnt agree.
Sphere 08-31-07, 03:18 AM	He has a problem with the fact that they get 2 good saves, second best skill points, second best attack bonus, their special abilites(wisdom to ac, weapon focus for 5 weapons at one level, wisdom to damage). Then he adds in the manuevers. His biggest problem with the manuevers is the 9th level Diamond Mind power that lets you make 2 full attacks in one round. My arguement is that you still have to hit the creature and a caster will still outdamage you but he doesnt agree. When you put it like that, the only advantage they have over druids is skill points.
Vaelan 08-31-07, 03:29 AM	He has a problem with the fact that they get 2 good saves They also get maneuvers that let them replace their saves with skill checks. Overall, the BSB is no big deal. second best skill points Swordsages need skills to function. It is built into many of their maneuvers. They still can't supplant the traditional skill roles, anyway. second best attack bonus Which is actually bad on a class that relies on melee attacks. their special abilites(wisdom to ac, weapon focus for 5 weapons at one level, wisdom to damage) Wisdom to AC almost makes up for being limited to light armor. Weapon Focus is +1 to hit, you're still a class that relies on melee attacks with Average BAB. Wisdom to damage only works a small portion of the time and is negligible thanks to the Swordsage's need for many ability scores. Then he adds in the manuevers. His biggest problem with the manuevers is the 9th level Diamond Mind power that lets you make 2 full attacks in one round. My arguement is that you still have to hit the creature and a caster will still outdamage you but he doesnt agree. As for Time Stands Still itself, point out that the earliest you can know it is at level 17. At level 17, things have the hitpoints to stand up to it quite easily, not to mention the AC to make your iterative attacks largely worthless. I'd be far more concerned about Diamond Nightmare Blade in the hands of a Swordsage.
Tempest Stormwind 08-31-07, 03:38 AM	At least he didn't zero in on Desert Wind this time. Time Stands Still is one of the stronger 9th level maneuvers (only War Master's Charge can outperform it in terms of damage output, and that relies on a lot of allies). That said, from the low levels, swordsages have the worst maneuver recovery system, relatively poor attack bonus, HP and armor for a frontliner, no ranged weapon proficiency except thrown weapons (ooh, wow, 10' range increment...), quite a fair bit of MAD (you can mitigate some Strength requirements with the right feats and maneuvers, but that takes effort), no White Raven (the strongest of the schools), no spells (compare Time Stands Still to any *6th* level spell (which casters have had for six levels at this point) and you'll see it comes out ahead only because it can be used more often)... you get the idea. I'm playing alongside two swordsages now. They don't want for options and they never break into monotony. Other than those improvements, they're not significantly stronger than other warrior-types (well, one's technically gish-type due to his focus on flashy maneuvers, but still) built by the same characters. The swordsage is generally considered the WEAKEST of the three martial adepts by the CO board. I mean, look at the warblade, with their full base attack, smaller MAD, faster recovery, and access to similar maneuver setups (Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon and -- better! -- White Raven. Iron Heart doesn't factor significantly in damage in most cases; it's best used for utility). It should be trivial to see how a warblade can pull off more damage than a swordsage, right? (ask him that; it's "obvious" to most DMs who ban the Tome). Once he answers yes, which he will, point him here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12990532&postcount=262). Make sure he sees the spreadsheet. He should be surprised to see that a warblade cannot out-damage a core-only barbarian with PHB-only equipment and no feats except Power Attack at most levels, except by resorting to non-repeatable nova tactics. Note that I used actual monster data and made sure to minimize the impact of build on that comparison. It's also easy to extend to other models, such as Time Stands Still.* The changes that the ToB *actually* brings about, as discovered by those of us who actually work with the rules as a hobby (the CO boards), can be summed up with Tleilaxu Ghola's quote above. He's probably the foremost expert on the CO boards when it comes to the Tome of Battle. Just to elaborate on his points: 1. Makes DEX SAD builds soo much easier. -- "DEX SAD" means "Dexterity Single-Ability-Dependent". In other words, it's easy to make characters that rely solely on Dexterity. (Swordsage + Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade is the usual method.) 2. Facilitates the creation of AoOs -- Devoted Spirit and White Raven in particular are full of abilities that cause your opponents to provoke AoOs (from you in Devoted Spirit, from your allies in White Raven). This in turn equates to a better tanking ability (DS) and coordinated assault teamwork (WR). 3. Offers more potent single attack options, such that warrior builds are no longer restrained to focusing on gaining full attacks. This in turn equates to higher mobility. -- This is self-explanatory. You can actually play a swashbuckling warrior... without having his feet nailed to the floor. 4. Offers the ability for warrior types to deal more than pure damage, additional effects include: stunning, dazing, instant death, immobilization, ability damage. -- That list, interestingly enough, is pretty much all-inclusive. There's a few things it didn't cover that weren't in the game beforehand (Bonecrusher's crit vulnerability, for instance) but in general, it holds that now you can do something other than damage in melee. 5. Grants warrior types the ability to make use of immediate and swift actions on a regular basis. -- Again, self-explanatory. Bottom line: it gives warriors more options. As is to be expected from a supplement for... you guessed it... warriors. --That, really, says it all. Note that none of those directly equate to more damage. Instead, they equate to more options. More options, in turn, means less time being worthless (i.e. a melee-specialized *monk* has nothing to do against flying enemies, while a melee-specialized *swordsage* could use a Searing Charge or Step of the Dancing Moth or Balance on the Sky or Shadow Garotte/Noose or Fan the Flames or...). Less time being worthless directly equates to more time participating in the game you're spending time to play, which in turn means more fun. I fail to see how that's ever a bad thing. * One day, I hope to complete it, 1-20. I need to redo it soon anyway for equipment reasons; I originally tried to keep both people at a 65% chance of being hit or less but buying equipment on a PC budget like that ON TOP OF doing the comparison was a pain. I'll redo it soonish with nothing but the weapon, ignoring downsides to attacks and budgeting a flat 40% for the weapon. That should make it easier.
Dazzer 08-31-07, 03:54 AM	I'm gonna apply the last posters form, but add new arguments. He has a problem with the fact that they get 2 good saves, second best skill points, second best attack bonus So do rangers. Rangers get 2 good saves, full base, and 6+int skills. In fact. So far rangers are better. Lets try and give the swordsage something to make up for this gap. How about some maneuvers and some weapon focus feats. That'll make up for track, full base, favored enemy, and wild empathy. Rangers also have the same hit-die. (On a sidenote, bards are also identical except for the hit-die). their special abilites(wisdom to ac, weapon focus for 5 weapons at one level, wisdom to damage). Then he adds in the manuevers. Wisdom to AC as noted below, makes up for light armor. Considering this class is BUILT to go into melee; they need the armor class. This point however, is void if the party generally has amazing statistics (17, 17, 15, 16, 14, 14). However, that is a point in and of itself. With moderated statistics (for instance, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). This isn't an issue. Additionally, monk also has wisdom to AC, and yes, at level 1, they can't wear armor. Ever seen a monk with bracers of armor +8? He has, wisdom +4, +8, +dex, +deflection, +natural. They can easily compete with said swordsage (and then some) for armour class; they will have very similar AC's. Considering both are melee oriented classes, this is good! Balance at last! (this is assuming higher levels) His biggest problem with the manuevers is the 9th level Diamond Mind power that lets you make 2 full attacks in one round. My arguement is that you still have to hit the creature and a caster will still outdamage you but he doesnt agree He has a problem with maneuvers, which has nothing really to do with the class. Please point out that Warblade also gets Diamond Mind, but has higher hitpoints and armour class and durability to be able to go and deliver this full-round (as well as higher base attack which can easily be converted into power attack damage). Please point out the following. The maneuver, allows you to perform two full-round-actions upon a person. However, you cannot activate other maneuvers during these 2 actions (I believe I'm right). Hence, you either move alot, or you attack alot (probably the second). Assuming haste. That's 8 attacks (maybe more for two-weapon-fighting). Remember, +16/+16/+11/+6 x2are your basic attacks with haste before modifiers. How many are going to hit? Probably 4-6. Your last 2 are unreliable. With two-weapon-fighting, you BASIC attack bonus looks more like an unmodified wizards....we know where that goes. Also point out. Time Stop + Delayed Spells 1d4 + 1 rounds (potentially 5, but lets say average 3 or 4). Time Stop + 3 Delayed Blast Fireballs at the enemies feat. (If you allow the delayed metamagic feat...this can get even more dirty). This is around 60d6 damage minimum reflex half, plus potentially more effects if they have metamagic feats, or other effects attached (delayed blast stunning or killing spells). Which would you prefer to have as a monster. A 3/4 base man, performing 2 full-round actions upon your body. A full-caster performing 2-5 full-round actions of spells upon your terrain/body/himself. (There are cleric domains that get time-stop, trickery being one of them). Imagine a cleric who could get 4-10 (I count quickened spells in this calculation) spells of buffage on himself before you even get to move.... are you still scared of the swordsage? No. A swordsage is balanced. Please request that he at least allow you to try playing one. If he doesn't like it after 3-4 sessions, then allow him to reserve the right to murder your character and force a new one upon you. If however, he really says "NO!" Give up, play something else. He is the DM; and really, it's his game too. Come up with a compromise. Maybe he'll let you dip into it. Like, every 3 levels you can have 1 level of swordsage. That way, he gets to see the class applied, but not in full force. Conversely. Suggest that you multi-class out before you get the maneuver (which you only get at 17th level anyway) he doesn't like.
leeeroy 08-31-07, 06:38 AM	As for the time stands still ability you should also point out that a Wizard can (if he wishes) use Time Stop 4 times per day (assuming he doesn't get bonus spells for some reason) at the same level and only get a minimum of 2 rounds. He can also get 5 rounds. Sorcerer gets it even more times per day. Let's not even bring up the 6th level Temporal Acceleration which IIRC, is augmentable to two rounds at that level. Make a Wilder with Delay Power and see how devastating that is. You should see my near self-sufficient Psychic Warrior. He has a Psicrown that gives him Temporal Acceleration.
Fenris_Lathiin 08-31-07, 01:13 PM	Has your DM ever looked at the PHB? I mean if those are his problems with the swordsage, why don't things like the Druid, Ranger and Bard scare the crap out of him. Granted, the Druid SHOULD scare him, but that's not really the point. He does have a point with Time Stands Still. It's a very powerful manuver. Of course, like others have pointed out, you get that at level 17. It's not like it gives you two turns or anything either, like Time Stop does (which the party Wizard got at the same time). He does know that you can only use it on a full attack and that all it does is double your attacks, right? It won't let you nova manuvers or anything.
Nephlite 08-31-07, 01:52 PM	Has your DM ever looked at the PHB? I mean if those are his problems with the swordsage, why don't things like the Druid, Ranger and Bard scare the crap out of him. Granted, the Druid SHOULD scare him, but that's not really the point. He does have a point with Time Stands Still. It's a very powerful manuver. Of course, like others have pointed out, you get that at level 17. It's not like it gives you two turns or anything either, like Time Stop does (which the party Wizard got at the same time). He does know that you can only use it on a full attack and that all it does is double your attacks, right? It won't let you nova manuvers or anything. Plus, the Swordsage is getting 2 turns in exchange for late losing a turn if he wants maneuver back. So it just means getting his later turn now instead of later.
Empiro 08-31-07, 02:04 PM	I'll say this much -- understanding game balance is really a thing that comes with experience. If you presented a Swordsage to me when I first started DMing, there's no way I could have been convinced that it's balanced. However, after DMing and also playing a large amount, you really come to understand the underlying mechanics of the game, and you're able to tell very quickly if something is weak, balanced, or too good (exempting unintended synergies of course!). So my suggestion to you is simply play as your DM wants. In the down time between games or when you're taking a break, discuss game mechanics and your observations. Help your DM get the perspective and experience that he needs to be able to judge power levels.
rone_leah 08-31-07, 02:11 PM	Actually Time Stands Still kind of lets you nova your boosts letting you drag more effect out of them. A TTS, assassin stanced, inferno blade weilding against a creature without any protection from fire is doing more damage than a 2 weapon fighting rogue at 19th level.
Howland Reed 08-31-07, 04:43 PM	The maneuver, allows you to perform two full-round-actions upon a person. However, you cannot activate other maneuvers during these 2 actions (I believe I'm right). Hence, you either move alot, or you attack alot (probably the second). This is not a counter-argument or anything, just a comment on the tactical use of Time Stands Still...you can get around that little limitation by using Quicksilver Motion or Sudden Leap, which let you move/cover ground as a swift action. Makes it a lot handier for sudden-death attacks.
Nephlite 08-31-07, 05:32 PM	Actually Time Stands Still kind of lets you nova your boosts letting you drag more effect out of them. A TTS, assassin stanced, inferno blade weilding against a creature without any protection from fire is doing more damage than a 2 weapon fighting rogue at 19th level. Although, Fire is the most defended against element in D&D. I mean, fire resistance is common. I can't think of any one defended more. Creatures must not trust fire...
LoneFlame 08-31-07, 08:31 PM	Time Stands Still only lets you make 2 full round attacks, not 2 full round actions. That means you must stand there and do a full-round attack(half of which will probably miss). Then you make another full round attack worth of attacks(using your normal full round attack progression). You can get in a grand total of one boost for a little something extra(or you can change your stance), but that's about it. Time Stands Still is really cool if you're a two-weapon fighting guy, but to do that with a Sword Sage, you have to expend some of your limited supply of character feats. Same applies to Warblade, except the Warblade at least has a good base attack, where as the Sword Sage doesn't. Also, Maneuver-wise, Swordsage only gets one more style than Warblade, so big freakin deal. On a sidenote, White Raven's cool & all, but Devoted Spirit's a lot cooler.
Tempest Stormwind 08-31-07, 09:35 PM	People are equating "full attack" with "full round action". It is NOT full-round action in Time Stands Still. When you use Time Stands Still, you make two full attacks. This basically means that instead of standing still for a round and making all your attacks, you stand still and make double your attacks. Since you're a swordsage here, most of them will miss. (Time Stands Still is really better for warblades.) You CANNOT use TSS to recover your maneuvers, because you can't recover maneuvers as a full attack. (It's a full-round action.) You CANNOT use TSS to make extra strikes or boosts, because the strikes are standard actions or full-round actions and boosts are swift actions, none of which Time Stands Still lets you do. I hope that clears up some confusion.
LoneFlame 08-31-07, 09:57 PM	You can get 1 swift action in a round, so you could boost for Time Stands Still. Alternatively, you could pick up the feat that lets you recover 1 maneuver as a swift action once a day, but that won't get you much.
BlackOracle 09-14-07, 02:22 AM	Hello I am the DM of the OP he showed this thread to me to try to convince me that Swordsage is not broken. I will admit that several of you are correct I have never seen this class played, I only quickly glanced at the Book of Nine Swords when I told him he could not play a Swordsage. In order to properly respond to this thread I took the book and began to read it in depth, after having done that I am more convinced now than before that I will never allow a Swordsage in a game I DM. (For understanding I am using only the PHB, DMG and BoNS other books can be used to improve these basic classes almost the same) Here are my reasons, the OP was correct the first things that struck me were the BAB, skill points and hit die. Now Dazzer said So do rangers. Rangers get 2 good saves, full base, and 6+int skills. In fact. So far rangers are better. Lets try and give the Swordsage something to make up for this gap. How about some maneuvers and some weapon focus feats. That'll make up for track, full base, favored enemy, and wild empathy. Rangers also have the same hit-die. (On a sidenote, bards are also identical except for the hit-die). Those are two different classes so I will take them separately, first Rangers, yes Rangers get a better BAB they also don’t get spells till 4th level whereas a Swordsage gets 6 known and 4 readied maneuvers and 1 stance any one of which can increase a Swordsages ability to hit. Now comparing the special abilities the two classes get, at first level the ranger can choose one favored enemy, gets the Track feat for free and gets Wild Empathy. Now I am sure there is a group somewhere that needs a character who can communicate with animals, or perhaps I will figure out a way as a DM to give a ranger the opportunity to use that ability, but the group I am currently running has all the subtlety of an atom bomb. At the same time a Swordsage gets a bonus to there initiative which is usable against everyone, and they receive Discipline Focus which gives them the feat Weapon Focus for weapons associated with the chosen discipline. Let me say that again, you gain Weapon Focus, a feat, for multiple weapons any where from 4 to 6 at FIRST LEVEL. You just received 4 free feats tell me of another base class that gives you something like that. Now Vaelan said Weapon Focus is +1 to hit, you're still a class that relies on melee attacks with Average BAB. I agree that only having a +1 to hit may not be very impressive but you get it with average, 5 different weapons I have played with some people that have passed up stronger magical weapons because they have Weapon Focus and want to use only weapons they have it for. Sometimes that’s the fun of giving magical weapons, giving them something more powerful they don’t have the same proficiency in and making them choose how they respond to it. With a much wider exceptional proficiency the Swordsage doesn’t have to make those decisions as often. I am sorry I see the Swordsage win in this comparison, over the long run the Ranger may get one more attack but by then the Swordsage is has enough maneuvers available to them to cancel that point (I will talk about the maneuvers in a moment) Second it was said that the Bard is the same build as a Swordsage except for the hit dice. To me that is like saying a Minivan is the same as an SUV except for the gas mileage. One of the major things you look at when deciding how you will be playing the character is there HP. I am sure that people can disprove this but usually you don’t take a character with a d6 hit die directly in to combat you do that with a character that has a d8. Plus if you look at the two classes they are built for different situations, the Bard is a support class while the Swordsage is a strait combat class. If you want I will compare the two in depth in another post but this one is already long and I want to get to the maneuvers. Before I do I have another problem with this class the insane sat uses it has. For example at second level they get to add their wis to their ac while still wearing armor. At 4th they add their wis to damage on strikes from one discipline then at 12th they add a second discipline. They are also the only class that can get the shadow blade feat at first level without using any other feats. And if you read the shadow blade feat it just says you add your dex modifier to damage. As it reads you add that on top of any str damage you may be doing, also it says nothing about halving the damage for an off hand weapon. About the AC Dazzer said (just so you know I am not picking on Dazzer he just best rebutted the points I am making) Wisdom to AC as noted below, makes up for light armor. Considering this class is BUILT to go into melee; they need the armor class. This point however, is void if the party generally has amazing statistics (17, 17, 15, 16, 14, 14). However, that is a point in and of itself. With moderated statistics (for instance, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). This isn't an issue. Additionally, monk also has wisdom to AC, and yes, at level 1, they can't wear armor. Ever seen a monk with bracers of armor +8? He has, wisdom +4, +8, +dex, +deflection, +natural. They can easily compete with said swordsage (and then some) for armour class; they will have very similar AC's. Considering both are melee oriented classes, this is good! Balance at last! (this is assuming higher levels) The problem with this is you are forgetting that a Swordsage can do all of that too At 2nd level a Swordsage can have a dex +2 or +3 same with wis then they get to have a chain shirt which is an additional +4 giving them anywhere from AC 18 to AC 20. At 2nd level a Monk with the same stats might have either a ring of protection +1 or an amulet of natural armor +1. Even if he has both his max AC is only 18. At 20th level the AC difference is even more noticeable. Here is my uber twinked example: a natural dex of +2, gloves of dex +6, Celestial Armor +11, natural wis: started with a 17 put every point into wis now has 22 possibly further augmented with tomes but I will say 22 so +6, Amulet of natural armor +5 Ioun stone of +2 wis and Ioun stone of +1AC final tally 37AC with the ability to have the celestial armor further enhanced. A Monk, same build replacing +8 bracers of armor for the Celestial armor ends with an AC of 38 and no further augmentation. Finally the Maneuvers, at all times the Swordsage gets the largest number of maneuvers both known and readied. They also end up with the most stances known. They also have the greatest number of Disciplines to draw from, three Disciplines known only to them compared to the one discipline known only by the other classes. Several of these can be incredibly powerful if not game breaking, for example at first level the Swordsage can take Child of Shadow as his stance, then as long as he moves 10 feet a turn he has concealment, and he can have this stance always active. If you just make your character a sleep walker you will always have concealment.:P At 5th level you can take a stance that gives you two sneak attack dice. That’s right at fifth level of Swordsage you get another classes special ability for free. At 13th level with no prerequisites you can get a strike against a flat footed opponent that can do an extra 15d6 points of damage or the ability to teleport around the battle field as a swift action. The biggest problem that I have is still with the Time Stands Still maneuver, however because I read this thread I saw that this maneuver is even worse than I thought. You can, with Time Stands Still, get 12 attacks if attacking with two weapons, you can then boost those attacks such as (Inferno Blade) adding 3d6 +1 per level fire damage to each strike and still have (Assassins Stance) the 2d6 sneak attack damage. Or you could (Raging Mongoose) add two additional attacks per weapon to a total of 16 attacks 7 of which are at your highest BAB still with that sneak attack damage. Or if you are 20th level you can use two Boosts while still getting your strike and stance bonus so that could be 16 attacks with 3d6 +1 per level fire damage and sneak attack or 20 attacks 11 of which are at your highest BAB. Now you might say Warblades can use those maneuvers there by doing that too, and you would be right they could use Time Stands Still and Raging Mongoose both in the same turn 3 times then they would have to stop and recover their maneuvers, Swordsages could perform both of those 6 times if they were using two boosts and the strike they could do it 4 times. Please tell me what you will be fighting that can shrug off (say an average of the strikes hit and no crits) 24 hits doing weapon damage plus str wis and maybe dex plus 3d6 +20 fire plus posibably 2d6 sneak attack. Leeeroy said As for the time stands still ability you should also point out that a Wizard can (if he wishes) use Time Stop 4 times per day (assuming he doesn't get bonus spells for some reason) at the same level and only get a minimum of 2 rounds. He can also get 5 rounds. Sorcerer gets it even more times per day. You are forgetting that any of the classes from BoNS get all their maneuvers back after the battle is over so while a Wizard can Time Stop 4 times a day a Swordsage can use the attack plan I stated above 4 time a battle. There is more but this post has already gone on to long I would love a debate of the other classes but as for the Swordsage as a base class, it is broken. It has design flaws that almost require you build it a certan way and when built that way only requires a cleric to accompany him to heal him after his battles. When built otherwise you are purposefully hampering your character and there are other classes that would allow you to play that character better. I say take the feats learn the maneuvers play the other two classes but ignore the Swordsage as the munchkin class it is.
Bryan_0697 09-14-07, 03:21 AM	You can only ready a certain manuever once - no matter how many avalable 'slots' you have. So no matter how many readied manuevers the Swordsage has he can only ready TSS ONCE - thgen he would have to take a full round action (just sitting there) to get it back. Your boost + TSS combo could be used once a battle without the Swordsage taking a full round action to refresh it - and then only if he takes a feat which lets him refresh/change all his readied manuevers (to get both back - the boost and the TSS). This may bring the Swordsage down a notch in you opinion - or 4 notches.
Tempest Stormwind 09-14-07, 03:25 AM	Hello I am the DM of the OP he showed this thread to me to try to convince me that Swordsage is not broken. Hello. I'll see about addressing your concerns. Those are two different classes so I will take them separately, first Rangers, yes Rangers get a better BAB they also don’t get spells till 4th level whereas a Swordsage gets 6 known and 4 readied maneuvers and 1 stance any one of which can increase a Swordsages ability to hit. 1) The ranger is a secondary spellcaster, the swordsage is a primary initiator. If anything you should compare it to a monk. 2) You seem to equate spells and maneuvers. They aren't alike. A ranger can have that one spell slot last for hours and provide him with a long-range divination or stealth effect, which is comparable to or better than most swordsage abilities. Now comparing the special abilities the two classes get, at first level the ranger can choose one favored enemy, gets the Track feat for free and gets Wild Empathy. At the same time a Swordsage gets a bonus to there initiative which is usable against everyone, and they receive Discipline Focus which gives them the feat Weapon Focus for weapons associated with the chosen discipline. Let me say that again, you gain Weapon Focus, a feat, for multiple weapons any where from 4 to 6 at FIRST LEVEL. You just received 4 free feats tell me of another base class that gives you something like that. Let's look at those ranger abilities again. Track: Bonus feat (and a good one). Useful at all levels. Favored Enemy: Conditional Weapon Specialization with *every* weapon (not just a small subset) three levels before fighters (and with no need for Fighter levels), plus an assortment of +skill feats (5 skills = 2.5 +skill feats). Scales upwards quite nicely with level. Wild Empathy: Never need to fight any animal, including dire animals and dinosaurs. (Ever turned an enemy tyrannosaur mount against its rider? I have (albiet with a druid, but since I didn't use magic the roll was the same as the ranger). It ain't pretty.) That's on top of full base attack (better, *especially* at level 1 where your +1 is the best in the game at that point, and everyone else has +0, the worst in the game), and 6 skill points (same as the swordsage), and two good saves, and full martial weapon proficiency (note that swordsages are not proficient with bows). Don't underestimate those. The ranger is an extremely powerful hunter, especially at range and/or against a specific type of foe. You seem to be looking at the swordsage *in* its niche while looking at the ranger *out* of its niche. This is where the percieved power gap is coming from. Now Vaelan said Weapon Focus is +1 to hit, you're still a class that relies on melee attacks with Average BAB. I agree that only having a +1 to hit may not be very impressive but you get it with average, 5 different weapons I have played with some people that have passed up stronger magical weapons because they have Weapon Focus and want to use only weapons they have it for. Sometimes that’s the fun of giving magical weapons, giving them something more powerful they don’t have the same proficiency in and making them choose how they respond to it. With a much wider exceptional proficiency the Swordsage doesn’t have to make those decisions as often. I am sorry I see the Swordsage win in this comparison, over the long run the Ranger may get one more attack but by then the Swordsage is has enough maneuvers available to them to cancel that point (I will talk about the maneuvers in a moment) Except the ranger has his conditional Weapon Specialization with *every* weapon in the game, even those he isn't proficient with. Depending on the game, this could apply against *every* enemy (ever chosen Favored Enemy: Human before? Far and away the best choice). Also, it's not like the swordsage is getting a lot of bonus feats he can use. Barring TWF (which is something the *ranger* does better by far, due to better base attack, bonus feats, and less reliance on Dex for those feats), you can only use one weapon at a time. Thus, the swordsage has *one* bonus feat. It just happens to be applicable to a small range of weapons as opposed to just the one. Now, this DOES NOT prevent the DM from going "Oh, I know you're built for weapon X, so I'll give you an uber-powerful weapon Y just to see you bemoan your character choices, neener-neener." He took discipline focus in Shadow Hand? Pass him a greatsword. It's Weapon Focus on a very small, thematically-related list, not Weapon Focus in all weapons. Second it was said that the Bard is the same build as a Swordsage except for the hit dice. To me that is like saying a Minivan is the same as an SUV except for the gas mileage. One of the major things you look at when deciding how you will be playing the character is there HP. I am sure that people can disprove this but usually you don’t take a character with a d6 hit die directly in to combat you do that with a character that has a d8. Plus if you look at the two classes they are built for different situations, the Bard is a support class while the Swordsage is a strait combat class. If you want I will compare the two in depth in another post but this one is already long and I want to get to the maneuvers. Bards can actually be pretty mean -- they're worse at being one-on-one duelists than swordsages, but they are better in parties, *and* they're easily better out of combat (which I don't think anyone would dispute). Before I do I have another problem with this class the insane sat uses it has. For example at second level they get to add their wis to their ac while still wearing armor. At 4th they add their wis to damage on strikes from one discipline then at 12th they add a second discipline. They are also the only class that can get the shadow blade feat at first level without using any other feats. And if you read the shadow blade feat it just says you add your dex modifier to damage. As it reads you add that on top of any str damage you may be doing, also it says nothing about halving the damage for an off hand weapon. Ever notice how those are all based off of non-melee ability scores? Have you *ever* run a monk? Ever notice how they desperately need a very high *EVERYTHING* except Int and Cha? Swordsages are similar -- except that it's *possible* to make a low-Wis swordsage (he doesn't *rely* on wisdom for his AC or damage, though it's nice). Now, as for Shadow Blade, great, you just split your Strength and Dexterity. You're using your (presumably lower) Strength to hit, and your (presumably high, since you took Shadow Blade) Dexterity to deal most of your damage. This is NOT an ideal situation -- attacks could deal infinite damage and still be worthless if they don't hit. To get your Dexterity truly useful, you need Weapon Finesse (which is probably a better feat to take at level 1 than Shadow Blade, but that's beside the point), which costs a second feat. Furthermore, Shadow Blade only functions with a very specific subset of weapons (although some of those are really good, notably unarmed strike and spiked chain), and -- most importantly -- only functions while in a Shadow Hand stance. There are some *very* good stances out there that aren't Shadow Hand, especially in Setting Sun and Tiger Claw (and Stone Dragon if mobility isn't a concern; Diamond Mind stances start off weak but become increasingly more powerful as you gain levels). In the end, these complaints introduce more multiple-attribute-dependency. If he rolled really, really, really well, yeah, you'd see a powerful swordsage since he can draw upon all aspects of his character. If he used the standard point buy array, you'd see him begin to fail miserably or dedicate himself completely to one goal (spending all his feats to let him use Dexterity, for instance). Meanwhile, the rest of your party already has feats that turn them into tiny gods, while he's just compensated for his 8 Strength. Wooooooooo. About the AC Dazzer said (just so you know I am not picking on Dazzer he just best rebutted the points I am making) [I]Wisdom to AC as noted below, makes up for light armor. Considering this class is BUILT to go into melee; they need the armor class. This point however, is void if the party generally has amazing statistics (17, 17, 15, 16, 14, 14). However, that is a point in and of itself. With moderated statistics (for instance, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). This isn't an issue. I mentioned this above; it seems that he did in fact roll quite well, so naturally you'll see very strong characters. Additionally, monk also has wisdom to AC, and yes, at level 1, they can't wear armor. Ever seen a monk with bracers of armor +8? Yes, but the monk is terribly weak. The swordsage has the option of wearing armor if he wants (i.e. it's possible to make a low-Wis swordsage, especially if he doesn't focus on Shadow Hand or Desert Wind). If you gave this ability to the monk -- which you can, actually, via PrCs like Shou Disciple -- you get a minor drop in the bucket effect (that is, it's really not all that impressive but you'll take it anyway. Case in point, the Shou Disciple grants this, but is most often taken because it advances Flurry and lets you do it with weapons, NOT because it gives Wis-to-AC-in-Armor). The problem with this is you are forgetting that a Swordsage can do all of that too At 2nd level a Swordsage can have a dex +2 or +3 same with wis then they get to have a chain shirt which is an additional +4 giving them anywhere from AC 18 to AC 20. At 2nd level a Monk with the same stats might have either a ring of protection +1 or an amulet of natural armor +1. Even if he has both his max AC is only 18. At 20th level the AC difference is even more noticeable. Here is my uber twinked example: a natural dex of +2, gloves of dex +6, Celestial Armor +11, natural wis: started with a 17 put every point into wis now has 22 possibly further augmented with tomes but I will say 22 so +6, Amulet of natural armor +5 Ioun stone of +2 wis and Ioun stone of +1AC final tally 37AC with the ability to have the celestial armor further enhanced. A Monk, same build replacing +8 bracers of armor for the Celestial armor ends with an AC of 38 and no further augmentation. Wait, so you're saying that 37 is significantly better than 38? Finally the Maneuvers, at all times the Swordsage gets the largest number of maneuvers both known and readied. They also end up with the most stances known. They also have the greatest number of Disciplines to draw from, three Disciplines known only to them compared to the one discipline known only by the other classes. All correct. HOWEVER, they also have the worst recover mechanic, effectively making *all* of these maneuvers usable exactly once per battle. If the battle goes on for long, he'll be really, really, really weak (since unlike the warrior-types, swordsages rely almost completely on their maneuvers for melee output). Several of these can be incredibly powerful if not game breaking, for example at first level the Swordsage can take Child of Shadow as his stance, then as long as he moves 10 feet a turn he has concealment, and he can have this stance always active. If you just make your character a sleep walker you will always have concealment.:P You call a 1 in 5 miss chance gamebreaking? What are you doing in the DM seat? It won't stop non-targeted effects, it doesn't stop line of sight, it doesn't alter saving throws, and it won't let him hide (the best use for cheap concealment at low levels). Furthermore, you can't maintain a stance while asleep (since you're helpless while asleep and stances end if you're helpless). However, you appear to be knee-jerking, which means you haven't read the book fully, so I'll let that slide. If we're looking at the swordsage's choices for most powerful level 1 stances, far and away the best winner is Island of Blades (although depending on the build, Blood in the Water or Hunter's Sense can come close for utility. Note that both of these, unlike Island, require another maneuver to learn, and the only first-level maneuver in Tiger Claw that's open without prereqs is Wolf Fang Strike, so if you want those, I hope you like TWF.). At 5th level you can take a stance that gives you two sneak attack dice. That’s right at fifth level of Swordsage you get another classes special ability for free. Not for free, at the cost of a stance. Which could have been used for Pearl of Black Doubt (you were complaining about high ACs earlier?), Roots of the Mountain (situationally better but in general not as good), or Leaping Dragon Stance (critical if you're a Tiger Claw user). Using it also costs you the chance of using another stance (and possibly a boost if you initiate it in battle). Furthermore, a swordsage isn't a rogue. 2d6 is all he'll ever get, and it relies on that stance to pull it off (hint: He's still better with Island. Assassin's is best used in other classes dipping swordsage). At 13th level with no prerequisites you can get a strike against a flat footed opponent that can do an extra 15d6 points of damage or the ability to teleport around the battle field as a swift action. If you think 15d6 damage from a medium attack bonus character at level 13 is gamebreaking, you obviously have never played the game at level 13. (Especially since that particular maneuver can only be used against a *flat-footed* opponent, which is NOT the same thing as an opponent denied dexterity. You either need to ambush them, or have them hit with an attack that makes them flat-footed. While the swordsage does have attacks that do that -- Shadow Garrote, Shadow Noose -- none of them last long enough for the swordsage himself to capitalize upon. So you need a buddy to work with -- and if we're getting into two characters, need I mention that two level 13 rogues can dish out about 15d6 damage in sneak attacks with just one attack each, or far more if they're actually good at their job?) The biggest problem that I have is still with the Time Stands Still maneuver, however because I read this thread I saw that this maneuver is even worse than I thought. You can, with Time Stands Still, get 12 attacks if attacking with two weapons, you can then boost those attacks such as (Inferno Blade) adding 3d6 +1 per level fire damage to each strike and still have (Assassins Stance) the 2d6 sneak attack damage. Or you could (Raging Mongoose) add two additional attacks per weapon to a total of 16 attacks 7 of which are at your highest BAB still with that sneak attack damage. Or if you are 20th level you can use two Boosts while still getting your strike and stance bonus so that could be 16 attacks with 3d6 +1 per level fire damage and sneak attack or 20 attacks 11 of which are at your highest BAB. Now you might say Warblades can use those maneuvers there by doing that too, and you would be right they could use Time Stands Still and Raging Mongoose both in the same turn 3 times then they would have to stop and recover their maneuvers, Swordsages could perform both of those 6 times if they were using two boosts and the strike they could do it 4 times. Please tell me what you will be fighting that can shrug off (say an average of the strikes hit and no crits) 24 hits doing weapon damage plus str wis and maybe dex plus 3d6 +20 fire plus posibably 2d6 sneak attack. You're neglecting the attack bonuses and feat costs (here, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade, and likely Adaptive Style -- oh, look, six out of the seven feats you get!) again. I'm noticing a trend here. Now, let's look at the number of ways that can be shut down. 1) 30 damage per hit is fire damage, which is negligable at high levels (everything resists it or is immune to it). 2) TSS is a full-round action, meaning you have to be in melee range at the start of your round to do it (or forfeit your boosts as you Shadow Blink into position). 3) As to what can fend that off? Look at some data. (http://www.cuberocks.net/DnD/CritterFilter/CritterFilter.php) You'd be amazed that the *average* critter at that level can survive this quite easily and still fry the swordsage afterward. Now, let's look at that bolded part. Did you notice how you can't ready a maneuver more than once? Ever? Seriously. It's not like spellcasters who can load up on multiple Fireballs. Instead, you have a list of maneuvers, each individual one can be "ready" or "not ready". You can't switch a maneuver to "more ready." Leeeroy said As for the time stands still ability you should also point out that a Wizard can (if he wishes) use Time Stop 4 times per day (assuming he doesn't get bonus spells for some reason) at the same level and only get a minimum of 2 rounds. He can also get 5 rounds. Sorcerer gets it even more times per day. Except Time Stands Still is effectively "take another very specific action after already doing the action", which is a bit better than the open-ended Celerity spell (4th level and considered a *strong* 4th level). Let's be generous; that's about a 6th level effect (which is approximately right; Temporal Acceleration provides a free, untyped FRA as a swift action, which is better, but is limited by power points). You aren't throwing around 9th level spells. You're throwing around 9th level strikes, which are approximately on par with 6th level spells. You also can't spam the same maneuver the way you spam the same spells, since you can't ready the same maneuver more than once. You are forgetting that any of the classes from BoNS get all their maneuvers back after the battle is over so while a Wizard can Time Stop 4 times a day a Swordsage can use the attack plan I stated above 4 time a battle. He could if it were legal (it isn't). And if circumstances allow (a wizard just needs line of effect and sometimes not even that; you need your enemy to hold still within range briefly and have a low enough AC for you to hit). There is more but this post has already gone on to long I would love a debate of the other classes but as for the Swordsage as a base class, it is broken. It has design flaws that almost require you build it a certan way and when built that way only requires a cleric to accompany him to heal him after his battles. When built otherwise you are purposefully hampering your character and there are other classes that would allow you to play that character better. I say take the feats learn the maneuvers play the other two classes but ignore the Swordsage as the munchkin class it is. And I hope to have pointed out that the vast majority of your analysis ignores costs and doesn't follow the rules. The swordsage, in the opinion of the CO boards -- which I can safely say know the game better than just about anyone -- is the weakest of the three classes. He needs all of those goodies just to keep up. Thank you, good night.
Senevri 09-14-07, 04:25 AM	Hello I am the DM of the OP he showed this thread to me to try to convince me that Swordsage is not broken. Brave of you to come here. I'll summarize what I'm likely to say here: No, it's not broken. Crusader's much much much worse. Those are two different classes so I will take them separately, first Rangers, yes Rangers get a better BAB they also don’t get spells till 4th level whereas a Swordsage gets 6 known and 4 readied maneuvers and 1 stance any one of which can increase a Swordsages ability to hit. Not really, no. There isn't a single stance which increases a swordsage's ability to hit. Remember, spells are generally stronger than feats, and low level maneuvers are weaker than feats. You can get things like an attack reroll (like cleric luck domain, but not as versatile), or two-weapon fighting for one round. Maneuvers are much much weaker than spells. Now comparing the special abilities the two classes get, at first level the ranger can choose one favored enemy, gets the Track feat for free and gets Wild Empathy. Now I am sure there is a group somewhere that needs a character who can communicate with animals, or perhaps I will figure out a way as a DM to give a ranger the opportunity to use that ability, but the group I am currently running has all the subtlety of an atom bomb. At the same time a Swordsage gets a bonus to there initiative which is usable against everyone, and they receive Discipline Focus which gives them the feat Weapon Focus for weapons associated with the chosen discipline. Weapon Focus sucks. It's a second-rate feat. Let me say that again, you gain Weapon Focus, a feat, for multiple weapons any where from 4 to 6 at FIRST LEVEL. You just received 4 free feats tell me of another base class that gives you something like that. And a Ranger gets a free Medium Armor Proficiency and Two-weapon fighting. Both significantly stronger feats than Weapon Focus. Remember, you'll only be using _one_ weapon at a time. Plus, most of the time, Unarmed Strike is in that list, and you still don't have Improved Unarmed Strike. I agree that only having a +1 to hit may not be very impressive but you get it with average, 5 different weapons I have played with some people that have You don't use five weapons at once. It only evens the playing ground for the first four levels BAB-wise vs. barbarians and rangers. passed up stronger magical weapons because they have Weapon Focus and want to use only weapons they have it for. And game preference affects the balance of a class how now? Sometimes that’s the fun of giving magical weapons, giving them something more powerful they don’t have the same proficiency in and making them choose how they respond to it. With a much wider exceptional proficiency the Swordsage doesn’t have to make those decisions as often. You did notice the part where they chose it for one Discipline, right? They made a choice when they picked that discipline, right there. I am sorry I see the Swordsage win in this comparison, over the long run the Ranger may get one more attack but by then the Swordsage is has enough maneuvers available to them to cancel that point (I will talk about the maneuvers in a moment) In the long run, Rangers get spells, feats and an animal companion, but we'll see... Agree on Bard/SS thing. They have different roles, thus a different chassis. Before I do I have another problem with this class the insane sat uses it has. For example at second level they get to add their wis to their ac while still wearing armor. Wearing _light_ armor. Remember, they could have gone for Full Plate. Does your swordsage have 18+ in wisdom? At 4th they add their wis to damage on strikes from one discipline then at 12th they add a second discipline. They are also the only class that can get the shadow blade feat at first level without using any other feats. And if you read the shadow blade feat it just says you add your dex modifier to damage. As it reads you add that on top of any str damage you may be doing, also it says nothing about halving the damage for an off hand weapon. Yes, Shadow Hand is nice. It also limits you to a specific set of weapons - weapons with somewhat weak base damage. The best is, what, 1d6? I Could have gone and picked up a greatsword, and gotten 3 points more damage + 1.5x STR + 2x Power attack investment. As a fighter, I would have had 1 higher attack, if I'd picked weapon focus, and then I could be, at the same attack bonus, doing +5 damage over swordsage with every blow. Tell me, do your first-level characters often have 18 dexterity? If so, do they still have as much strenght as your fighter-types? The problem with this is you are forgetting that a Swordsage can do all of that too At 2nd level a Swordsage can have a dex +2 or +3 same with wis then they get to have a chain shirt which is an additional +4 giving them anywhere from AC 18 to AC 20. At 2nd level a Monk with the same stats might have either a ring of protection +1 or an amulet of natural armor +1. You are aware that the monk is a bit on the weak side, especially as a front-line combatant? At second level, a fighter may have 14 dex for +2 and +6 from an armor, and +2 from a shield. AC from 18 to 20. To be fair, monk won't have rings or amulets at that point, seeing as how it would be outside their WBL. Monks are very very problematic at low levels. Their best bet is that their Stunning Fist happens to work and they can disable a guy for a while to allow a fighter-type to take the opponent down. Even if he has both his max AC is only 18. At 20th level the AC difference is even more noticeable. Here is my uber twinked example: a natural dex of +2, gloves of dex +6, Celestial Armor +11, natural wis: started with a 17 put every point into wis now has 22 possibly further augmented with tomes but I will say 22 so +6, Amulet of natural armor +5 Ioun stone of +2 wis and Ioun stone of +1AC final tally 37AC with the ability to have the celestial armor further enhanced. A Monk, same build replacing +8 bracers of armor for the Celestial armor ends with an AC of 38 and no further augmentation. [quote] Um... HOW do you get your armor from +5 base +5 enhancement to 11+, exactly? Fighter: Fullplate, +2 heavy shield, Amulet of nat. armor +5, Ring of prot. +5. AC 40 without any stat investment. Any less in melee at 20th level is folly. [quote] Finally the Maneuvers, at all times the Swordsage gets the largest number of maneuvers both known and readied. They also end up with the most stances known. Of which only one can be active at a time. But, yes. I don't see your point yet... They also have the greatest number of Disciplines to draw from, three Disciplines known only to them compared to the one discipline known only by the other classes. Several of these can be incredibly powerful if not game breaking, for example at first level the Swordsage can take Child of Shadow as his stance, then as long as he moves 10 feet a turn he has concealment, and he can have this stance always active. You do remember the "takes more than a 5ft. step, takes an attack of opportunity" thing? CoS is nice, but nothing amazing, I mean 20% miss chance... Hardly game-breaking with your low HP and attack bonus. Frankly, none of the stances are very powerful. At 5th level you can take a stance that gives you two sneak attack dice. That’s right at fifth level of Swordsage you get another classes special ability for free. But then, you're not in Child of Shadow stance, which you felt was the uber. Sneak Attack is gained by many, many, many classes in one form or another. Also, while the 2d6 is nice, it's nothing a rogue couldn't pick at 10th level. It's also not for free. You just used a stance for it. At 13th level with no prerequisites you can get a strike against a flat footed opponent that can do an extra 15d6 points of damage or the ability to teleport around the battle field as a swift action. It's a good thing nobody's doing, oh, 13d6 x 1.5 vs. area at that point. Oh, wait. Ever heard of "Dimension Door", by the way? Except, it's a bit longer distance than 50ft. The biggest problem that I have is still with the Time Stands Still maneuver, however because I read this thread I saw that this maneuver is even worse than I thought. You can, with Time Stands Still, get 12 attacks if attacking with two weapons, you can then boost those attacks such as (Inferno Blade) adding 3d6 +1 per level fire damage to each strike and still have (Assassins Stance) the 2d6 sneak attack damage. Most of which will miss. At that point that five less BAB is hurting you. Also, even the piddly monks are doing +13+13/+13/+13/+7/+3 Base at that point. Each hit doing 4d6 base damage. Now, compare those hit chances to +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3. You think those +7s and +3s are going to hit something? Oh, and your base damage is 1d6. Now, the TSS for swordsage is twice that. Let's compare it to an ordinary TWF ranger using shortswords: +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 vs: Swordsage, TSS: +13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+8/+8/+3/+3/+3/+3. Remember, when a fullBAB hits on a roll of 10, a Swordsage will hit on a 15. Assassin's stance doesn't work if the opponent is not flanked or flat-footed. Many, if not most creatures at that level are immune to fire damage. Remember, Warblades also get TSS. Or you could (Raging Mongoose) add two additional attacks per weapon to a total of 16 attacks 7 of which are at your highest BAB still with that sneak attack damage. Remember, Warblades also get Raging Mongoose. And anyone can get Dancing Mongoose by level 20. Or if you are 20th level you can use two Boosts while still getting your strike and stance bonus so that could be 16 attacks with 3d6 +1 per level fire damage and sneak attack or 20 attacks 11 of which are at your highest BAB. Now you might say Warblades can use those maneuvers there by doing that too, and you would be right they could use Time Stands Still and Raging Mongoose both in the same turn 3 times then they would have to stop and recover their maneuvers, Swordsages could perform both of those 6 times if they were using two boosts and the strike they could do it 4 times. No. Maneuvers work like this: You can only learn a maneuver once. Unused Maneuver: [ ] Time Stands Still Used Maneuver: [X] Time Stands Still. They don't PREPARE maneuvers, they READY them. A maneuver is either ready, or not. To make it even simpler, when you learn a maneuver, you get a new card. A single shiny new card. You can only have one card of each type. When you use a maneuver, you use that card, and put it away, for a while. Then, you do not have a card. Got it? Please tell me what you will be fighting that can shrug off (say an average of the strikes hit and no crits) 24 hits doing weapon damage plus str wis and maybe dex plus 3d6 +20 fire plus posibably 2d6 sneak attack. You mean 12 hits, right? That's something like +12 from STR and dex Do note, you get WIS only on Strike Maneuvers. Thus, it doesn't work with TSS at all. The rest is 1d6+5, +3d6+20 fire, +2d6 SA = 17+8.5+30,5 Fire + 7.or a total of 69 damage/hit, times twelve for 828 damage, absolute worst case. Over two rounds ,even with adaptive style, so 414 damage/round. Respectable. Of course, worst case can also mean you fail a fort save vs. instagib and die. Now, against a fire immune character, you're only doing 201 damage/round, average, if you hit with every blow. However, one third of your blows will miss, so we're looking at around 260 damage, worst case anyway. Against a Balor( a respectable cr 20 opponent )... Let's take a closer look at your attack bonus: 15+5 weapon + 6 stat = 26 best. VS AC 35. So, we get 4x45%, 4x20%, and 4x5% damage, for a total of 12x70% damage, or 197.4 damage. I guess those 5% hits do have some value. Now, what were you saying? You are forgetting that any of the classes from BoNS get all their maneuvers back after the battle is over so while a Wizard can Time Stop 4 times a day a Swordsage can use the attack plan I stated above 4 time a battle. Maneuvers don't work like that. See the cards example above. There is more but this post has already gone on to long I would love a debate of the other classes but as for the Swordsage as a base class, it is broken. Ha. No. I'm willing to entertain the notion that Crusaders are broken, but Warblade is fine. Frankly, you do not know what you speak of. Here's a task for you: Build a 1st level swordsage. Run some mock combats vs. appropriate level mooks. See how it does. Increase the level a bit. Do remember to look at the rather strict maneuver swapping limitations. Then run a mock combat vs. appropriate level encounters. Then start thinking of your banhammer. *edit* The Ninja before me says things I mean, but is nicer 'bout it.
Vaelan 09-14-07, 05:42 AM	BlackOracle, I had a rather large post typed out clarifying some points about why you're wrong. I decided not to post it. I'm not even going to bother arguing the points because the relevant points have already been made and ignored by you. The relevant points, in case you missed them, is that you have never played a Swordsage, nor have you DMed with one in the party. People who have played and DMed with the class are telling you that you're wrong. It is pretty much the strongest denial you will get from the boards, so you should either accept it or be honest and tell your friend that you don't care what a bunch of people on a messageboard say. If you are reasonable and allow him to try it, he will be reasonable and make a new character if the Swordsage ends up wrecking the game. If you're right, no harm is done. If you're wrong, it is a good thing you let him try. You have nothing to lose here.
Nephlite 09-14-07, 09:38 AM	Not really, no. There isn't a single stance which increases a swordsage's ability to hit. Remember, spells are generally stronger than feats, and low level maneuvers are weaker than feats. You can get things like an attack reroll (like cleric luck domain, but not as versatile), or two-weapon fighting for one round. To be fair: Emerald Razor is a touch attack strike (1 attack). So that can technically increase chances to hit. Ever heard of "Dimension Door", by the way? Except, it's a bit longer distance than 50ft. Conjuration specialist can teleport 10 feet by level 1 in PHB 2 (in exchange for a familiar). No. Maneuvers work like this: You can only learn a maneuver once. Unused Maneuver: [ ] Time Stands Still Used Maneuver: [X] Time Stands Still. They don't PREPARE maneuvers, they READY them. A maneuver is either ready, or not. Just say Manuevers are Binary: 1 or 0, there is no 2. But than he would have to understand what binary is.
Witch 09-14-07, 09:42 AM	Just as a mild pointing out: Main Entry: pre·pare Pronunciation: pri-'per Function: verb Inflected Form(s): pre·pared; pre·par·ing Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French preparer, from Latin praeparare, from prae- pre- + parare to procure, prepare -- more at PARE transitive verb 1 a : to make ready beforehand for some purpose, use, or activity <prepare food for dinner> b : to put in a proper state of mind <is prepared to listen>
Tempest Stormwind 09-14-07, 10:04 AM	"You don't prepare maneuevers" -> "You don't prepare maneuvers as you would prepare a spell." This is one of the reasons why they use "ready" as terminology instead of "prepare."
FrostWolf 09-14-07, 10:13 AM	I played in a goup that had one player using a BoNS class. the DM had to up the level of every encounter couse he was OHKing mostg things. ended up getting the party killed. I've never seen anyone roll so many dice at level five in my life. Never again.....
Tempest Stormwind 09-14-07, 11:45 AM	I played in a goup that had one player using a BoNS class. the DM had to up the level of every encounter couse he was OHKing mostg things. ended up getting the party killed. I've never seen anyone roll so many dice at level five in my life. Never again..... Level 5? Where the most powerful single-strike maneuver is Bonecrusher*, at +4d6 (that is, 6d6 (average 25, assuming 16 Strength) with a greatsword, to one target, once per battle), while mages shoot off 5d6 fireballs to 41 squares? Actually, let's not even look at magic. Let's look at what warriors can do. Oh, wait, I already did that (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12990532&postcount=262), comparing a warblade to a barbarian. If the warblade wants to have reusable tactics, at level 5, accounting for actual monster data/equipment/chances to hit/etc and assuming optimal conditions for both fighters (read the thread to understand my assumptions), the warblade will deal 2.7 more weighted damage in a typical attack cycle than a raging barbarian, if and only if he uses Punishing Stance. If he doesn't use Punishing Stance, the barbarian will be ahead of him by 1.06 weighted damage. They seem pretty neck-and-neck. This won't be the case once level 6 hits (where both get iterative attacks); there, even with punishing stance, the barbarian is ahead of the warblade by 4.79 points of weighted damage (and over 10 points of weighted damage per cycle if the warblade isn't using Punishing Stance). This is a warblade, which people consider stronger than the swordsage, and the barbarian wasn't using any feats besides Power Attack. Keep that in mind. If you think that a ToB class is automatically better than what's out there, you're dead wrong. It's just easier to make a competitive martial adept, harder to screw them up (as opposed to the fighter, for instance, where a new player is almost certain to bone themselves), and harder to *break.* The biggest thing the ToB did for melee was add *options* -- not add numbers. It's far better balanced than you'd suspect. * Technically, Fan the Flames is 6d6, but 1) it ignores weapon damage (meaning I can't add 2d6 for using it with a greatsword like I did with Bonecrusher up there), 2) it's fire damage (and thus easily resisted), and 3) all it is is damage (while effects like Bonecrusher have a special tactical option added to them). Consider this: At level 5, a mage's Scorching Ray -- which he has enough of to use once per battle now, just like a swordsage's moves (recall that the game assumes 4 encounters of CR=APL per day) -- deals 4d6 damage at longer range (35' as compared to 30'). However, unlike Fan the Flames, Scorching Ray will continue to get better (hitting multiple targets, doing more damage, shooting over a longer range, etc), and combines with metamagic *extremely* well. It's also not the mage's best spell at this level.
Shrapnel_Blast 09-14-07, 01:05 PM	The overwhelming problem seems to be that those who oppose the use of martial adepts have never actually played or observed one. Or, people are blatantly ignoring what other classes are capable of at the same levels. Just stat up a martial adept or two and run it against some encounters. Seriously. You'll discover very quickly that the number of actions you have prevents you from being any sort of game breaker.
Nephlite 09-14-07, 02:32 PM	I played in a goup that had one player using a BoNS class. the DM had to up the level of every encounter couse he was OHKing mostg things. ended up getting the party killed. I've never seen anyone roll so many dice at level five in my life. Never again..... Wait, than the DM failed: if he upped the CR and it killed the party than it wasn't a giood idea to up the CR. Tell us what happened, maybe he got a crit. Just to be sure you know: a Rogue level 5 can deal (assuming flanking or ememy denied dex) 3d6 each attack,. Assuming twfing: 4d6 (short sword + 3d6 sneak) and offhand 4d6.=8d6 a round. How much dice did this guy roll?
FrostWolf 09-14-07, 04:20 PM	He was a goliath (The big guys from Races of Stone) with a large fullblade or a large great maul. kept doing something that refreshed his abilities every few rounds of combat. If I remember, his AC dropped from using the stances or something. To be honest, I was too busy healing everyone (him the most) to pay much attention to anything other than the damage he was dealing (around 40++ a shot. He was rolling ALOT of d6s) and the damage we took in turn. He out damaged our Whisper Gnome Rogue, our ranger, and my cleric combined. I wish I could get my hands on the character sheets, but we quit that game awhile ago and the DM kept the sheets.
Senevri 09-14-07, 04:34 PM	well, a large flaming fullblade in a punishing stance is, what, 6d6? Mountain Hammer gets to 8d6. That averages to... something or other. However, I doubt that in that case, Warblade was to blame, per se. A barbarian build wouldn't throw as many dice, but they'd do 2d6 + ungodly amounts of damage. It's sometimes hard to remember that a d6 is only 3.5 points of damage...
Nephlite 09-14-07, 04:41 PM	He was a goliath (The big guys from Races of Stone) with a large fullblade or a large great maul. kept doing something that refreshed his abilities every few rounds of combat. If I remember, his AC dropped from using the stances or something. To be honest, I was too busy healing everyone (him the most) to pay much attention to anything other than the damage he was dealing (around 40++ a shot. He was rolling ALOT of d6s) and the damage we took in turn. He out damaged our Whisper Gnome Rogue, our ranger, and my cleric combined. I wish I could get my hands on the character sheets, but we quit that game awhile ago and the DM kept the sheets. Power attack can do an big lot with leap attack. 2 handed, 1 to 4 (or 6 depending on interpretation) damage. Assuming level 5 Barbarian: You are doing +20 from PA (leap attack) alone add 2d6 (average 7) from 2 h weapon + 9 str (18 Str +4 rage)=36 average damage. You can do better with magic weapon or large size. Large Greatsword is 3d6 (average 10.5). So this is normal damage for a damage dealer. It just looked impressive because he was throwing out a lot of d6's. Heck, had he been human he would not have a large 2h weapon. Wait, isn't fullblade 3.0?
Talcon 09-14-07, 07:04 PM	Soaring raptor strike gets you 6d6, but you got to be set up to pull it off.
BlackOracle 09-14-07, 07:59 PM	This is the player again. My DM wants to know where does it say that you can only ready a maneuver once. He can not find it so he is assuming that you can ready a manevuer as many times as you can have them ready when you start the day. Thats once reason he is picking on Time Stands Still. Having 12 of those ready at the start of the day is a scary prospect.
Nephlite 09-14-07, 08:11 PM	This is the player again. My DM wants to know where does it say that you can only ready a maneuver once. He can not find it so he is assuming that you can ready a manevuer as many times as you can have them ready when you start the day. Thats once reason he is picking on Time Stands Still. Having 12 of those ready at the start of the day is a scary prospect. Ask Cut serv. Also where does it say you can ready the same twice? D&D works by telling you what you can do, not what you cant do usually. Same reason you can only take a feat more than once if it says you can like toughness does. pg 38 at top talks a little about this: "You can use each of your readied manuers once per encounter" Not once per encounter per numbers of times readied, but once. Now you can recover them to use again, but otherwise gone. Also none of the sample characters readies any manuver more than once.
NineInchNall 09-14-07, 08:16 PM	Official response: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060830a Also, in my signature's useful links section there is a link to a thread devoted to collecting official answers about the book.
deathbane 09-14-07, 08:31 PM	This is the player again. My DM wants to know where does it say that you can only ready a maneuver once. He can not find it so he is assuming that you can ready a manevuer as many times as you can have them ready when you start the day. Thats once reason he is picking on Time Stands Still. Having 12 of those ready at the start of the day is a scary prospect. I think your DM should make a character so he understands how they work. This will also make him read the book to make sure he gets it right instead of glancing over the page.
Mandarbgrim 09-14-07, 09:21 PM	I've seen a Rogue who dipped into Swordsage and Warblade played in a game I ran. The Warblade was consistently outdamaged by the Barbarian. The Warblade's player was more useful tanking with his former character, a Knight with jacked up AC & HP. Currently I am playing in a game as a Gestault Crusader/Swordsage. The Vote is still out on this experience. The only problems that I have encounters so far is that it is incredibly tempting to dip 1 level of a martial class for character level 5, and that everyone I have played with has assumed Shadow Jaunt can be readied every other round. Shadow Jaunt and Cloak of Deception are incredibly useful for a scout/spy while out of combat. That could be limited by imposing an issue or readying the manuevers outside of combat, or not letting people Shadow Jaunt to the roof of buildings, walls, and such. To the DM, if the Swordsage is bugging you right now. Shadow Jaunt will really bug you. The Swordsage player in my game used it to teleport onto buildings, ontop of a 30ft Wall, to reach places a Guard was unlikely to pay attention to while spying on a Keep, to the ground to get off an enemy Wyvern he jumped onto, and other situations I can't remember because I was DMing drunk. Last Session I used it to get out of the equalivalent of quick stand, and to go 50ft in the air so I could glide over obstacles <Dragonborn>. It is suprising what 50ft teleportation every other round can accomplish.
Nephlite 09-14-07, 11:49 PM	To the DM, if the Swordsage is bugging you right now. Shadow Jaunt will really bug you. The Swordsage player in my game used it to teleport onto buildings, ontop of a 30ft Wall, to reach places a Guard was unlikely to pay attention to while spying on a Keep, to the ground to get off an enemy Wyvern he jumped onto, and other situations I can't remember because I was DMing drunk. Last Session I used it to get out of the equalivalent of quick stand, and to go 50ft in the air so I could glide over obstacles <Dragonborn>. It is suprising what 50ft teleportation every other round can accomplish. Remember: full round actionm for Swordsage to get Shadow Jaunt back. Or 1 minute of no combat if out of combat. Wait, every other round, you give up 1 round to use it again?
Mandarbgrim 09-15-07, 12:05 AM	Out of combat a full round action isn't a big deal. I meant use it, recover it, use it, recover it. Obviously it is rarely being used in that exact fashion, but it illustrates the idea.