Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Starym 09-04-07, 09:16 PM	The question is in reference to this sentences in the book : Prestige Classes work a little differently.In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level for determining your initiator level. Now it seems clear that the martial prestige classes in the book itself are added as the full level but it is unclear if normal(non martial) prestige classes are also added on a 1 for 1 basis.
calronmoonflower 09-04-07, 09:25 PM	Unless the class says different you add 1/2. That includes base classes and prestige.
Vaelan 09-04-07, 09:34 PM	And the very next sentence reads... See the prestige class descriptions in Chapter 5 for details. Looking at the Prestige Classes in chapter 5... You add your full bloodclaw master levels to your initiator level... I think it is pretty clear that only classes that explicitly say they add their full level add their full level.
Tempest Stormwind 09-04-07, 11:36 PM	Martial PrCs add fully to *every* initiator level. Warblade 10 / Swordsage 5 / Master of Nine 5 (just to pull an example out of my arse) has a warblade initiator level of 17 and a swordsage IL of 15. This is going strictly as written; CustServ hasn't overturned it and neither has the Sage. Non-martial PrCs do not say anything about adding to any initiator level. Therefore, they do not add fully; just like levels in non-martial base classes, they count half.
BugHunter 09-04-07, 11:55 PM	Martial PrCs add fully to *every* initiator level. Warblade 10 / Swordsage 5 / Master of Nine 5 (just to pull an example out of my arse) has a warblade initiator level of 17 and a swordsage IL of 15. This is going strictly as written; CustServ hasn't overturned it and neither has the Sage. Non-martial PrCs do not say anything about adding to any initiator level. Therefore, they do not add fully; just like levels in non-martial base classes, they count half. What about the Bloodstorm Blade it is the only PrC that does not have the "You add your full ___ levels to your initiator level..."?
Tempest Stormwind 09-05-07, 12:08 AM	What about the Bloodstorm Blade it is the only PrC that does not have the "You add your full ___ levels to your initiator level..."? You'll also note it's not a martial-advancing PrC, since it doesn't provide maneuvers? Thus, it works just like Dervish or Frenzied Berzerker or Revenant Blade or any other melee non-martial-adept PrC; it adds half.
Macrovore 09-05-07, 03:38 AM	Don't you have the same IL for all martial adept classes, though, since non-martial classes also add to your IL?
Tempest Stormwind 09-05-07, 09:43 AM	Don't you have the same IL for all martial adept classes, though, since non-martial classes also add to your IL? Nope. See page 39, "Multiclass Characters".
dfarnsworth 09-12-07, 05:11 PM	How would this work playing a gestalt game? David
ZiggZagg 09-12-07, 05:22 PM	Depends on how you have it split. If the classes are on separate sides, like Swordsage//Warblade, then you keep track of the Initiator level separate. If it is on the same side, such as Fighter//Swordsage/Warblade, you keep track of it as you would in a normal game
zorgling25 09-12-07, 05:24 PM	How would this work playing a gestalt game? David As with anything else in gestalt, you add the best at each level, not both, so for example a Swordsage 7/Master of the Nine 3//Fighter 2/Crusader 8 would have IL 10 in Swordsage (since the +1 IL gained from Swordsage and Mot9 levels is greater than the 1/2 IL gained from the other side), and IL 9 from Crusader (1/2 per level for the Fighter//Swordsage levels, and +1 all the others), whereas a Swordsage 7/Mot9 3//Crusader 8/Fighter 2 would have IL 10 in both Crusader and Swordsage.
dfarnsworth 09-12-07, 05:27 PM	Sorry I'm being dense but could you give me another example? I just got that cloudy glazed look in my eyes and it isn't leaving... David
bkdubs123 09-12-07, 05:28 PM	You'll have to be a bit more specific than that, David. Do you mean a Gestalt between initiator classes and how a PrC would effect that character? Say you were a Warblade/Crusader 10 Eternal Blade 10? Why, you'd have an initiator level of 20 in both Warblade and Crusader of course. However, it is worth noting that in many Gestalt games you are allowed to gestalt two PrCs at once as well. So that if you were in fact a Warblade/Crusader 10 Eternal Blade/Bloodclaw Master 5 Eternal Blade/Master of Nine 5 than you would actually have an initiator level of 30 in both Warblade and Crusader. The problem with the way the gestalt rules work and the way ToB multiclassing works is that within the example provided above the results are similar to a gestalt Wizard/Druid 10 Mystic Theurge/*Arcane Druid PrC Thingy* 10. In gestalt rules, such a combination is illegal since the PrCs advance two different classes at once and in theory that's what you're already doing. Since Martial PrCs automatically advance all Initiator levels at once there ought to be serious houseruling as to how they work in a Gestalt campaign. Wait... wait.. scratch that. Zorgling is right. Forget everything I just said.
bkdubs123 09-12-07, 05:38 PM	Basically even if you take more than one Martial PrC at the same time you still only get one instance of +1 to Initiator level. In theory. Since the PrCs themselves don't say that, merely the rules on multiclassing say that you can still technically get up to 30 initiator levels out of Gestalting two Initiators and two Initiator PrCs. Example: When a gestalt Wizard Rogue 10 takes a gestalt level with two PrCs that both provide arcane spellcasting he doesn't get +2 to caster level, he still only gets +1. So should it follow that when a gestalt Warblade Crusader 10 takes a gestalt level with two Martial PrCs that he does not gain two initiator levels for both classes, but that he should only gain one. However, as I said above, the rules don't exactly work that way. House ruling is the way to go here.
dinelendarkstar 09-12-07, 05:53 PM	You can't take two PrC's at the same level under gestalt.
dinelendarkstar 09-12-07, 05:56 PM	As with anything else in gestalt, you add the best at each level, not both, so for example a Swordsage 7/Master of the Nine 3//Fighter 2/Crusader 8 would have IL 10 in Swordsage (since the +1 IL gained from Swordsage and Mot9 levels is greater than the 1/2 IL gained from the other side), and IL 9 from Crusader (1/2 per level for the Fighter//Swordsage levels, and +1 all the others), whereas a Swordsage 7/Mot9 3//Crusader 8/Fighter 2 would have IL 10 in both Crusader and Swordsage. Gestalt you only take the best when it comes to BAB, Save Progression and HP you still get all benifits of both class features including spellcasting progerssion. So if you have a Swordsage6//Warblabe6 each class would have an initiator level of 9 but a class level of 6.
zorgling25 09-12-07, 06:03 PM	Gestalt you only take the best when it comes to BAB, Save Progression and HP you still get all benifits of both class features including spellcasting progerssion. So if you have a Swordsage6//Warblabe6 each class would have an initiator level of 9 but a class level of 6. Wrong. If you have two classes that both progress THE SAME spellcasting progression, they don't stack (e.g. a level of Wizard//Archmage doesn't gain 2 levels of spellcasting progression). You get the benefits of both class features if they progress DIFFERENT THINGS. Gestalt ToB follows the same rules.
Mr_Teapot 09-12-07, 06:10 PM	Example: When a gestalt Wizard Rogue 10 takes a gestalt level with two PrCs that both provide arcane spellcasting he doesn't get +2 to caster level, he still only gets +1. So should it follow that when a gestalt Warblade Crusader 10 takes a gestalt level with two Martial PrCs that he does not gain two initiator levels for both classes, but that he should only gain one. However, as I said above, the rules don't exactly work that way. House ruling is the way to go here. As far as I can tell, the gestalt rules do work like that, meaning you can't ever have an IL higher than your character level. Each level, you look and see if a class is raising your IL by 1, or if you're only getting 1/2 from two non-initating levels. Any duplication of initiator advancing classes runs up against this rule: Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class. So a swordsage 10 // fighter 10 who goes up in Master of Nine and swordsage still only increases his IL by 1 (ie, equal to the faster rate of advancing IL, though in this case both classes advance at the same speed). So a swordsage 20 //fighter 10 / Eternal Blade 10 still only has an IL of 20.
Warlawk 09-12-07, 06:11 PM	Basically even if you take more than one Martial PrC at the same time you still only get one instance of +1 to Initiator level. In theory. Since the PrCs themselves don't say that, merely the rules on multiclassing say that you can still technically get up to 30 initiator levels out of Gestalting two Initiators and two Initiator PrCs. Example: When a gestalt Wizard Rogue 10 takes a gestalt level with two PrCs that both provide arcane spellcasting he doesn't get +2 to caster level, he still only gets +1. So should it follow that when a gestalt Warblade Crusader 10 takes a gestalt level with two Martial PrCs that he does not gain two initiator levels for both classes, but that he should only gain one. However, as I said above, the rules don't exactly work that way. House ruling is the way to go here. Taken from the SRD A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes No doubling up on PRCs.
zorgling25 09-12-07, 06:12 PM	Sorry I'm being dense but could you give me another example? I just got that cloudy glazed look in my eyes and it isn't leaving... David Sure. I'll try going a bit slower. Suppose you start with a Crusader//Swordsage. Each level, you gain exactly 1 IL for Crusader and 1 for Swordsage. You wouldn't gain 1.5 each level, because 1 > 1/2, and you can't progress an identical class feature with both sides in gestalt at the same level (Crusader IL once, and Swordsage IL once). By level 7, your ILs are 7 Crusader/ 7 Swordsage. Now, suppose, at level 7, you decide to multiclass your Crusader side into Cleric, and get Cleric//Swordsage levels. Your Swordsage levels increase by 1 IL each level. Your Crusader side increases by 1/2 IL each level, since Swordsage would provide 1/2 and Cleric would provide 1/2, and neither is better. By level 10, you would have ILs as 8 Crusader/ 10 Swordsage. Then at level 10, you decide to enter Ruby Knight Vindicator on your Crusader side. Each level of RKV increases both sets of ILs by one. You don't gain an additional boost from Swordsage since, just like with spellcasting, two classes advancing the same thing don't provide double advancement. By level 20, you would have ILs as 18 Crusader/20 Swordsage.
Mr_Teapot 09-12-07, 06:14 PM	So if you have a Swordsage6//Warblabe6 each class would have an initiator level of 9 but a class level of 6. No, you take the faster progression of initiator level, not both progressions. Advancing IL in gestalt is just like using fractional BAB and gestalt. And just like with BAB, gestalt never allows an IL higher than character level. Your example warblade//swordsage has an IL of 6 in both classes.
Nadaka 09-12-07, 06:17 PM	Gestalt you only take the best when it comes to BAB, Save Progression and HP you still get all benifits of both class features including spellcasting progerssion. So if you have a Swordsage6//Warblabe6 each class would have an initiator level of 9 but a class level of 6. No. You can't get the same feature from both sides of gestalt at the same time. Just like having a gestalt wizard 10/mystic theurge 10 - cleric 20 would not give you a caster level 20 as wizard and a caster level 30 as cleric. It just does not work that way. Each class would have an initiator level of 6. The +1 initiator level of any given level over-rides the +1/2 initiator level from the other side of the gestalt. Likewise a fighter 6 - rogue 6 gestalt would have an initiator level of only 3. However a swordsage 6 - fighter 6 gestalt would have a 6 initiator level, however any martial training feats would mere add swordsage maneuvers known due to the wording of that feat rather than the maneuver+slot that the fighter would get without having a martial adept class.
zorgling25 09-12-07, 08:00 PM	No. You can't get the same feature from both sides of gestalt at the same time. Just like having a gestalt wizard 10/mystic theurge 10 - cleric 20 would not give you a caster level 20 as wizard and a caster level 30 as cleric. It just does not work that way. You can't use double-advancing PrCs in Gestalt but the example still is valid. A Wizard 20//(any) 3/Master Specialist 10/Loremaster 7 doesn't have a caster level of 37.
Vaelan 09-12-07, 08:22 PM	Dinelendarkstar, acceptance through silence is a weak argument under any circumstances. When you apply it to something published after the rules you're claiming are silent, it is simply ludicrous.
dfarnsworth 09-12-07, 09:11 PM	Thanks guys. And I have the flu right now, so remember your karma when using my denseness against me. :P