Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Votan 12-25-06, 01:55 AM	I think that I am starting to really like a Warblade who focuses on White Raven maneavers and stances. This is now, in my opinion, the most effective way that I have seen to build a General Character in D&D. I am also finding Iron Heart surprisingly interesting which is strange as I had expected to prefer the Tiger and Dragon styles more. Opinions?
NineInchNall 12-25-06, 02:53 AM	Wait, why would one ever want to focus on just one style?
Chimaera2000 12-25-06, 03:23 AM	Which styles I prefer depend on which character concepts that I'm playing at the moment, of course. For my halfling swordsage built as an assassin, Shadow Hand was the discipline of choice. For my gnome crusader/marshal, each of Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, and White Raven made sense. For my drow warblade, he uses a combination of Diamond Mind and Iron Heart. Overall, though, my favorite are Iron Heart and Shadow Hand. Each can do cool maneuvers like any other disicipline, but one has my favorite maneuver (Iron Heart Surge) and the other has my favorite stance (Assassin's Stance).
periscope 12-25-06, 03:42 AM	I like Devoted Spirit and Stone dragon myself. They keep you alive and let you power on through anyone (and for those of you who say you cant always muscle through, thats what we have bards, rogues, and wizards for).
MagicMouth 12-25-06, 08:21 AM	I´ve always been a fan of stealthy characters, so Shadow Hand is my favorite. My current character, however, is a Halfling Warblade focusing on Iron Heart and Diamond Mind, with some Stone Dragon maneuvers on the side.
BrazilRascal 12-25-06, 08:44 AM	I favor Iron Heart and Diamond Mind myself. Devoted Spirit also impresses me as great, since it does everything with competente: it has damage boosters, endurance powers. battlefield control abilities, healing...and tons of stances! I believe Stone Dragon ranks last, however. Sure, it can add to nice +d6 damage, but I don't lie the stances, and needing to have you _and your target_ touching the ground can be a major problem at later levels, where everyone and their Half-Ogre grandmother flies. Even at low levels having the leader of the opposition have a potion of Fly is quite common. Also, it lacks boosts and counters. Iron Heart is like Fighter feats on crack. Steel wind is an improved Cleave, Mithral Tornado is a Whirlwind Attack with a bonus and no pesky tree prerequisites...it's a wonderful discipline for stratetic offense. Diamond Mind is more...sophisticated. You need your Concentration as high as it goes, and then some, but it pays off. Replacing Conc for your bad saves is nifty, the Insightful Strikes can potentially do amazing damage (with any weapon or even unarmed!), and later Nightmare Blades can shave off a Balor's HP so fast it'll forget it had DR....if you can pull it off.
Nezkrul 12-25-06, 10:29 AM	i prefer diamond mind above all others, being a feudal japan traditionalist this style strikes me as being the one used by a lot of anime characters.
Ariath Ska'Vhor 12-25-06, 10:38 AM	Ironically, I love two different ends of the spectrum. Favoured styles are Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw. "I'll rip you to shreds! With great focus!"
Votan 12-25-06, 11:40 AM	Wait, why would one ever want to focus on just one style? Well, you could focus on 2 but the rules for getting the very high level maneavers require a number of maneavers previously in that school. This suggests that you should focus on one or two to build a base to get the very high level maneavers some of which are really cool. I am very surprised that White Raven is not not more liked. It seems to be an amazing school for buffing the party and for being able to make the best of group tactics.
Forsaken1 12-25-06, 11:58 AM	Apparently I'm alone on this but I like the Desert wind and Shadow hand with a touch of diamond mind. I like to think of it as a Prince of persia type. Personally I like the Desert wind dodge feat and the Child of shadows stance. Yeah skimishers!
Belgian Waffle 12-25-06, 12:24 PM	Diamond Mind is probably my favorite... followed by Iron Heart and then Setting Sun.
Crimson_Concerto 12-25-06, 12:45 PM	1) Desert Wind (though, reflavoring for different damage types of fun) 2) Diamond Mind 3) Setting Sun 4) White Raven
WarlockOfSiberys 12-25-06, 02:50 PM	1. Iron Heart, I second the "fighters on the crack" opinion 2. Diamond Mind, paired with Iron Heart, its the core warrior ethos 3. White Raven, good for party boosts 4. Stone Dragon, sheer survivability I'm torn between Eberron gestalt ToB characters that I might play in an adapted Red Hand of Doom game, either the Karrnathi human knight/warblade with White Raven and Stone Dragon Aundurian monk:fighter/warblade devoted to Dol Arrah and Dol Dorn that uses Iron Heart and Diamond mind shifter ranger:barbarian/swordsage with Tiger Claw and Setting Sun focus
Chimaera2000 12-25-06, 06:31 PM	I am very surprised that White Raven is not not more liked. It seems to be an amazing school for buffing the party and for being able to make the best of group tactics Oh, don't get me wrong, White Raven is an extremely strong discipline (arguably the strongest) and I personally love White Raven Tactics. However, I think that the reasons why it's not as well-liked are the same as for why clerics and druids aren't as well-liked. All are highly effective mechanically and can provide great group boosting, but some disagree with the flavor and would rather be "in the spotlight" than supporting the group.
Vestigial_Thumb 12-25-06, 06:39 PM	Ironically, I love two different ends of the spectrum. Favoured styles are Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw. Ditto. Being something of a sophisticated savage myself, this combination intrigues me.
ravenshrike 12-25-06, 06:45 PM	1. Iron Heart, I second the "fighters on the crack" opinion 2. Diamond Mind, paired with Iron Heart, its the core warrior ethos 3. White Raven, good for party boosts 4. Stone Dragon, sheer survivability I'm torn between Eberron gestalt ToB characters that I might play in an adapted Red Hand of Doom game, either the Karrnathi human knight/warblade with White Raven and Stone Dragon Aundurian monk:fighter/warblade devoted to Dol Arrah and Dol Dorn that uses Iron Heart and Diamond mind shifter ranger:barbarian/swordsage with Tiger Claw and Setting Sun focus Go warblade/beguiler. Int based and you essentially get most of the defensive and some offensive equivilents of the shadow school. Not to mention the ability to feint as a swift action with combat expertise and imp. feint. Schools would be diamond mind/iron heart with a smattering of stone dragon. Heh, a displaced, mirror imaged warblade. Plus if you assume that the beguiler gets grease like it says in the combat section for it, you can disarm/trip your opponent.
Jell_Moo 12-25-06, 10:58 PM	White Raven and Devoted Spirit are far and away my favotite styles. I find that a good combination of these two makes for really good party synergy. Instead of being an amazing damage dealer, you can create a character that protects, buffs, and helps the entire party out. To that end, after repeated reading, it made me like the Crusader a lot more than I initially did. I find that with the right Maneuvers, I can make a character that follows the basic idea of the Knight from PHB2, only done so very much better. Also, it allows a character to fill multiple party roles. You can be the party tank, the party face, and a backup healer. Kinda like the Paladin, only without that irritating CoC. Yes, Jell_Moo here is probably the only one in the known universe that likes the Crusader the best out of the ToB classes. :)
Nitan 12-25-06, 11:17 PM	Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand here.
Fullmetal_Alchemist 12-25-06, 11:24 PM	Actully, I mostly like them all. Although I like Stone Dragon, Desert Wind, and Shadow Hand with some Setting Sun the most. I actully replaced the core class Fighter with the Warblade the class. The whole book is nail finsihing this world of fighters. The fighter was weak, but know with Tome of Battle, the whole world of material arts has changed.
itwasntme 12-25-06, 11:27 PM	Note : Im going to be an idiot and ask a question Book of the nine Swords????:confused: :confused: :confused:
Votan 12-25-06, 11:48 PM	White Raven and Devoted Spirit are far and away my favotite styles. White raven is a general or commander -- a classic archetype that is just not in the D&D nowadays (Bard simply does not count). I aslo notice that people in my home group like melee characters so an effective melee boost character is just grand! Yes, Jell_Moo here is probably the only one in the known universe that likes the Crusader the best out of the ToB classes. :) Wow! :eek: I find the random maneaver readied mechanic to be a bit awkward, actually, as it seems to work against the careful planning that I like in a character. It's not that the Crusader is weak, just that I see myself as unlucky! :) Of course, I'd kill to get a Crusader or a Swordsage or a Warblade tested in my home group as I want to see the maneavers mechanic in action. I suspect that it will work out really well.
Votan 12-25-06, 11:51 PM	Note : Im going to be an idiot and ask a question Book of the nine Swords????:confused: :confused: :confused: A very well thought out book that Wizards of the Coast has released as a supplement. So far tied with the Spell Compendium and Players Handbook 2 as the best money spend on D&D for non-core rulebooks!
rphair 12-25-06, 11:57 PM	Stone Motha'truckin' Dragon. If you want to hit things, I mean really hit things, I mean hit them so hard that they don't even want to think about getting up for more, then this is your discipline. I am also a fan of Tiger Claw, Iron Heart, and Setting Sun. But none of them have maneuvers that say things like, "You hit your foe and his eyes go wide as his ENTIRE SKELETON FRACTURES. SERIOUSLY, YOU CAN HEAR THE LITTLE CRACKS!" Okay, yeah, I'm paraphrasing that a little bit, but it's the flavor text that does it for me. That, and the picture of the guy standing over the mummy, and the mummy looks all, "Oh, god-damn that hurt!" and the guy with the club or staff or whatever is all like, "Yeah, what! Get up and I'll do it again, punk!" That is, I like the way these things look on paper. My DM won't actually allow ToB characters or maneuvers in his games, since we have to preserve the sacred cow of 9th-level spellcasting...
RadicalTaoist 12-26-06, 12:09 AM	Actually, I think Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw mix wonderfully. Clear the mind, let the empty thought guide movement. 'Civilized' thinking focuses too much on distractions; what make the great predator species so fearsome in combat is their lack of such counterproductive mental states. My personal favorite school is Setting Sun, as I'm an avid aikidoka and love seeing something that comes close to representing what I do on the mat. My favorite ToB build is here.
Votan 12-26-06, 12:29 AM	[B]Actually, I think Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw mix wonderfully. Clear the mind, let the empty thought guide movement. 'Civilized' thinking focuses too much on distractions; what make the great predator species so fearsome in combat is their lack of such counterproductive mental states. My personal favorite school is Setting Sun, as I'm an avid aikidoka and love seeing something that comes close to representing what I do on the mat. My favorite ToB build is here. One thing that I am noticing is that there is no systematic pattern to what people prefer. It seems to me like the schools picked are almost as much a reflection of style as mechanical advantage. That suggests really good design. I also noticed the great features of Setting Sun for mimicing Aiki-do or Aiki-jujutsu but it was only available to Swordsages and I find losing full BAB in a melee type difficult to justify; although the class does look cool.
levitation 12-26-06, 12:55 AM	1. shadow hand, just because of the ninja style awesomeness (like actual sneaky), also love teleportation...every six seconds... 2. iron heart, the flavor is awesome and I love iron heart surge, endurance, and the mithral tornado 3. diamond mind, because its all about focus
Jell_Moo 12-26-06, 01:21 AM	White raven is a general or commander -- a classic archetype that is just not in the D&D nowadays (Bard simply does not count). I aslo notice that people in my home group like melee characters so an effective melee boost character is just grand! I really like the way that the White Raven style (and to a lesser extent the Devoted Spirit) enhance the rest of the party. Instead of seeking to dominate combat with nothing more than pure numbers, you can actually help coordinate a battle, and have the entire party working better. For me, this is the charismatic leader of men that the Pally could have been, but never quite was. Wow! :eek: I find the random maneaver readied mechanic to be a bit awkward, actually, as it seems to work against the careful planning that I like in a character. It's not that the Crusader is weak, just that I see myself as unlucky! :) That was my same initial reaction. I though that it seemed, I dunno, foolish or something to leave the character up to fate like that. However, the more I looked at it, and the more I looked at the individual maneuvers and other class abilities of the Crusader, the more I liked what I saw. I think that with good Maneuver choice, the Crusader is likely never more than 1 round away at the worst from having a decent maneuver on hand. The element of chance, the randomness, something about that appeals to me. A class that works off of Divine Inspiration actually has a mechanic that uses that concept, and I like that. Of course, I'd kill to get a Crusader or a Swordsage or a Warblade tested in my home group as I want to see the maneavers mechanic in action. I suspect that it will work out really well. Somehow I don't think killing would be required to get a volunteer. Certainly not for the Crusader, anyway. :)
ssvegeta555 12-26-06, 02:07 AM	I like Diamond Mind the best. Being focused and kicking ass like is freaking sweet. Plus it has a few time related maenuvers. I'm a big fan of the temporal. Setting Sun is my second favorite. I just love the idea of chicking some dude far away. Plus it's great for a tactical advantage. Throw someone right at the feet of your friendly fighter who will chop him up with a full attack.
Votan 12-26-06, 08:10 AM	I really like the way that the White Raven style (and to a lesser extent the Devoted Spirit) enhance the rest of the party. Instead of seeking to dominate combat with nothing more than pure numbers, you can actually help coordinate a battle, and have the entire party working better. For me, this is the charismatic leader of men that the Pally could have been, but never quite was. Agreed. The Paladin is just too focused on his core role of hitting evil and riding horses for my taste. A good commander option that was balanced was lacking. The maneavers do a good job of it -- the commander can lead but it is a choice of what maneaver to use. Does he use Iron Heart to hit hard, Diamond Mind to resist a spell or White Raven to enhance his troops. It's a nice mechanic that focuses on options and fun. Of course, a Warblade is aslo a useful character with or without the maneavers which also helps. What I disliked about the marshall was that it just did badly if it was forced into a solo situation. That was my same initial reaction. I though that it seemed, I dunno, foolish or something to leave the character up to fate like that. However, the more I looked at it, and the more I looked at the individual maneuvers and other class abilities of the Crusader, the more I liked what I saw. I think that with good Maneuver choice, the Crusader is likely never more than 1 round away at the worst from having a decent maneuver on hand. The element of chance, the randomness, something about that appeals to me. A class that works off of Divine Inspiration actually has a mechanic that uses that concept, and I like that. I suppose but it strikes me as dangerous. In particular, it requires some planning to make sure that the worst possible set of maneavers doens't leave you with nothing to do. I guess I just prefer the deliberation of the Warblade. That being sad, the Crusader does Holy Warrrior in a new and interesting way that hasn't been tried before but does capture the flavor well so maybe it's better than I am giving it credit for. Somehow I don't think killing would be required to get a volunteer. Certainly not for the Crusader, anyway. :) :)
Richmud 12-26-06, 10:13 AM	Somehow I don't think killing would be required to get a volunteer. Certainly not for the Crusader, anyway. :) If the crusader is devoted to Nerull killing will be very very necessary :D
Demonwolf 12-26-06, 10:50 AM	I don't know if other people here mentioned it (probably did) but I'd say Crusader actually fits the tactical leader concept better than the warblade does, although the warblade isn't that bad of a fit either. I honestly don't see the randomness of a crusader being too much of an issue given that stances are constant and Extra Granted Maneuver narrows down the field quite a bit (especially if your DM rules in favor of the energizer bunny recovery mechanic). That said, I would actually suggest that you diversify as much as you can- rather than focusing on a single style in addition to White Raven, diversify as much as you can. Focus instead on taking maneuvers from another style that encourage tactical planning, are sorta-kinda support, etc. Eschew Tiger Claw altogether and focus on debuffs from the other three styles such as disarming strike and overwhelming mountain strike, as well as maneuvers that allow sudden shifts of tactical formation like mithral tornado, bounding assault, etc. If you absolutely must choose one other style, go with your gut and do Iron Heart. It's generic enough not to distract from White Raven's flavor and is less focused on direct damage bonuses than the other two. My other suggestion is, instead of focusing on two seperate styles, I recommend that you multiclass as warblade/X, since that way you can focus exclusively on White Raven maneuvers without having to smudge your character flavor with non-WR maneuvers, but nor will you have to take a lot of maneuvers known that you have no liking or use for (which happens a lot with single-style focused chars in my experience). The 1/2 initiator level for non-martial classes makes this a quite bearable loss, imo, especially in lower levels. My suggestions include bard, ranger, sorc/EK, wiz/EK, fighter, rogue, scout, swashbuckler, knight and what the hell, paladin. Some of those would be more fitting of a stern, analytical tactician than a roaring and passionate general, though. Whichever one you do, I recommend you focus on swift-action spells, knowledge skills and face skills.
Salla 12-26-06, 11:20 AM	I personally like Tiger Claw ... less for the TWFing, more for the jumping maneuvers. It's nice and flashy. Second favorite is probably White Raven. I like teamwork.
turalisj 12-26-06, 11:32 AM	The style I choose depends on the character. Ninja-ish asssassin? Diamond Mind and Shadow hand. Why? Because with Diamond Mind you get the oh-so powerfull abilities such as emerald razor and diamond nightmare blade. Shadow hand for the assassin's stance, and the ability score hitting attacks.
BrazilRascal 12-26-06, 03:51 PM	Well, if you talk about pure _style_, I think Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand are hard to beat. I love the concept of a warrior that is all harnessed instinct, waiting to explode and unleash 57 sword cuts at some hapless foe in the space of two eyeblinks. And well, Shadow Hand speaks for itself. There's a reason ninja movies were a hit and Metal Gear:Solid games becmae classics. People like being bizarrely stealthy while kicking tail all over the place. Now they just need a maneuver that makes every enemy see only a 15' cone ahead on him and lose all peripheral vision, another to make them ignore bloody trails leaving to corpse-filled lockers, and we're set.
turalisj 12-26-06, 04:17 PM	Well, if you talk about pure _style_, I think Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand are hard to beat. I love the concept of a warrior that is all harnessed instinct, waiting to explode and unleash 57 sword cuts at some hapless foe in the space of two eyeblinks. And well, Shadow Hand speaks for itself. There's a reason ninja movies were a hit and Metal Gear:Solid games becmae classics. People like being bizarrely stealthy while kicking tail all over the place. Now they just need a maneuver that makes every enemy see only a 15' cone ahead on him and lose all peripheral vision, another to make them ignore bloody trails leaving to corpse-filled lockers, and we're set. It's called self-denial. :P
Crashy75 12-26-06, 09:17 PM	I love Iron Heart. It's what the fighter should be.
1DHandful 12-26-06, 09:24 PM	In order: Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw, White Raven, Stone Dragon, Desert Wind, Iron Heart, Devoted Spirit, Setting Sun. Devoted Spirit is higher in the likes list if the concept is pious, and I really want to like Setting Sun more.
turalisj 12-26-06, 09:49 PM	In order: Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw, White Raven, Stone Dragon, Desert Wind, Iron Heart, Devoted Spirit, Setting Sun. Devoted Spirit is higher in the likes list if the concept is pious, and I really want to like Setting Sun more. Setting Sun is awesome... Tornadoe throw to see how far a goblin can fly.
ravenshrike 12-26-06, 09:50 PM	That is, I like the way these things look on paper. My DM won't actually allow ToB characters or maneuvers in his games, since we have to preserve the sacred cow of 9th-level spellcasting... A properly played spellcaster will rip apart a ToB char any day of the week. Just have him toss more than one will save in a row, or a quickened lower level on and then a 9th level will save spell.
turalisj 12-26-06, 09:53 PM	Or a carefully worded wish spell. Have him make a wish for the ToB character to have used all his manuevers for the encounter, and no more help. Or cast fly, and begin arial bombardment ala fireball.
1DHandful 12-26-06, 09:53 PM	Setting Sun is awesome... Tornadoe throw to see how far a goblin can fly. Counter Charge is fun. Lots of it is fun, in a 'if they do this, they will regret it' kinda way. I guess I want it more proactive.
Fallenangel359 12-26-06, 10:09 PM	A crusader with extra granted maneuver really never runs out of maneuvers... and using energizer bunny methods... can effectively do the same maneuvers, over, and over, and over... Warblade is insane with iron heart... swordsage has good sneak skills, thats for sure... swordsages make the best shadowdancers, if mixed with 1 level of something else. In a gestalt game, 20 rogue, and 2 fighter, 1 shadow dancer, and 17 swordsage is just nuts... I will admit, mixed with warlock may be eviler... due to eldritch (potentially hellfiring) glaiving sneak attacks vs touch ac, while invisible (shadowdancer, taking 10s on hide and move silently)
Fallenangel359 12-26-06, 10:13 PM	tiger's final move is just insane... To make jump checks like that, you need to look at boosting jump skill... Boots of springing and striding combined with cloak of flying considering increases jump... +jump items rock at that... I've figured out ways to boost jump to like 66 before... nothing like save or die, save and take 20d6... based off str Its just begging to become a corrupted changeling 2 warshaper +6 to the DC right there... with no negetive side effects besides 2 lower cha, and 2 lower wisdom same visual appearance, as a changeling
turalisj 12-26-06, 10:39 PM	tiger's final move is just insane... To make jump checks like that, you need to look at boosting jump skill... Boots of springing and striding combined with cloak of flying considering increases jump... +jump items rock at that... I've figured out ways to boost jump to like 66 before... nothing like save or die, save and take 20d6... based off str Its just begging to become a corrupted changeling 2 warshaper +6 to the DC right there... with no negetive side effects besides 2 lower cha, and 2 lower wisdom same visual appearance, as a changeling Gestalt that with a monk, and you are looking at impossible odds.
Caliborn 12-27-06, 04:00 AM	I'm very fond of Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, and Devoted Spirit. I really really wish Setting Sun wasn't Sword Sage only.
Votan 12-30-06, 03:41 PM	I'm very fond of Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, and Devoted Spirit. I really really wish Setting Sun wasn't Sword Sage only. Agreed. It is really nice for mimicing some pretty formidable marital arts styles and I am pretty convinced it is the only way to do a defensive/counter-attacker effectively in D&D.
Zephania 12-30-06, 04:28 PM	Apparently I'm alone on this but I like the Desert wind and Shadow hand with a touch of diamond mind. I like to think of it as a Prince of persia type. Personally I like the Desert wind dodge feat and the Child of shadows stance. Yeah skimishers! 100% agree. Props for Prince of Persia!(has made many rogues based of aspects of his character)
King Bulba 12-30-06, 05:02 PM	Desert wind for flavor. Might not be the most effective with almost everything but it tends to be fun and flexable. Attack anyone you run by? Sounds fun muahhaha. Through in a boost for some extra dmg. Death mark has some fun flavor where you hit the mob and it explodes fire (not nessisarly dying) like anime. Flashing sun to flurry very kung fuish, or searing charge to make a crazy jumping (really flying) charge like in many asian martial art films. Hmm then Shadow Hand, and Dimond Mind plus Set (they tied for 3rd).
cphr 12-30-06, 08:21 PM	I really like setting sun for the flavor of its moves, but it's not the most effective at higher levels since its best maneuvers require tripping. Not exactly something you will be doing to a dragon... Stone dragon is a little boring, but it looks very effective.
pmurray@bigpond.com 12-30-06, 09:08 PM	I'm thinking of running a Feral Gargun (from Races of Stone) Warblade specialising in Tiger Claw. He'll dual-wield Kukris and I'll make him into a crit munchkin. 28 point build, with flaws "Shaky" and "Inattentive" for two extra feats at first level (Wep Prof Kukri, Weap Foc Kukri, TWF - aiming at Improved Crit and GTWF). The intelligence penalty is a problem - he needs "balance", "jump", and "tumble" and not enough points to go around. I was thinking of doing a Goliath barbarian/warblade using a Goliath Hammer, but I didn't see much in the Stone Dragon style that was worth taking. I do like the "Three Mountains" feat for this dude.
Edea 12-30-06, 11:23 PM	Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw are my favorite disciplines. I also like Shadow Hand, particularly its stances. I like Iron Heart for optimizing purposes.
Bluehero 12-31-06, 12:21 AM	I like tiger claw, desert wind, and setting sun
Sphyre 12-31-06, 12:40 AM	I like Devoted Spirit quite a bit, being that it pretty much has everything. Offense and Defense. Diamond Mind too, for the very same reasons, although it seems to have a smaller number of maneuvers that I'd actually choose, but there are definately some that I think are great. And of course, Tiger claw looks nice, although only for those who specialize in it. I think it'd be interesting to play with the mobility of Desert Wind and Shadow Hand, although Shadow hand seems to not have that much that I'd like for a character, and I can see some serious damage potential with Desert Wind against targets with no fire resistance. Since everyone gets Stone Dragon, it seems like a nice school for rounding out any of the 3 classes abilities that you don't choose, despite it's restrictions on being on the ground. The setting sun seems by far the least impressive to me. I've never been a fan of grappling, bullrushing or other such tactics. I know they are great when used correctly, but it's simply not my style.
Pangeon 12-31-06, 01:00 AM	I'm a sucker for Shadow Hand, really. (Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike, I mean, come on, you can't get much cooler than that.) I really like Tiger Claw and Devoted Spirit as well, and Iron Heart is just plain awesome. While Stone Dragon seems so-so to me, the flavor text of COMPLETLY ANHILATING YOUR FOE'S SKELETAL STRUCTURE, well... that I like. :D
Aryxbez 12-31-06, 01:07 AM	I like the swordsage using the Diamond mind, Setting Sun and shadow hand I find that the Diamond mind fits the ol super fast samurai like attacks I favor Hydra slaying strike from setting sun stopping full attacks is awesome and I like the 9th level manever of shadow hand since it's effects are good and it has a great name, Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike
Vaelan 12-31-06, 01:24 AM	I prefer a guerilla-style assault, myself. Get in, hit hard, and get out. Not only does it put you in an active role, but it also works with the Swordsage's recovery mechanic. Blow your maneuvers as quickly as possible and use your skills and mobility-based maneuvers/stances to get away, then recover expended maneuvers at your leisure. Obviously Shadow Hand is the most prevalent discipline in this strategy, though you'll never see me object to a Pouncing Charge followed by a Shadow Blink as a closer. tiger's final move is just insane... Chances are, more of your opponents will have good Fortitude saves than any other save. An additional 20d6 damage is okay, but it hardly qualifies as insane. To make jump checks like that, you need to look at boosting jump skill... Both Jump checks and attack rolls are based off of Strength and you will have more ranks than BAB. A simple Ring of Jumping is enough to put your Jump check on par with your best attack rolls and an Improved Ring of Jumping makes the checks pretty much trivial. I really like setting sun for the flavor of its moves, but it's not the most effective at higher levels since its best maneuvers require tripping. Not exactly something you will be doing to a dragon... A common misconception. Tornado Throw can easily kill a CR 20 dragon in one round if you optimize for tripping. Before the bonuses from Tornado Throw, you can have an 11-point advantage on the check to throw an old red dragon and even odds on the check to throw a great wyrm red dragon. It does require some help in the form of a Polymorph from the party's spellcaster, though.
Votan 12-31-06, 01:36 AM	Chances are, more of your opponents will have good Fortitude saves than any other save. An additional 20d6 damage is okay, but it hardly qualifies as insane. Feral Death blow is a decent ability for a 17th level character to posses as compared to other options -- like Wail of the Banshee. It's probably harder to execute than the 7th level cleric spell Destruction is. It's like a lot of the upper level abilities -- they give high level warriors a chance to do soemthing impressive that is not equipment dependent. Very nice change, by the way. I cracked and added the Book of None Swords to my otherwise core game just because of repeated player requests and the elegance of the mechanics.
Edea 12-31-06, 01:40 AM	The nicest thing about maneuvers is not the power level, but the durability of the mechanic. Martial adepts don't run out of maneuvers for the day, and their stances are usually constant. This makes them fill their intended roles extremely well, I believe.
Sphyre 12-31-06, 01:43 AM	Chances are, more of your opponents will have good Fortitude saves than any other save. An additional 20d6 damage is okay, but it hardly qualifies as insane. To add to this, the 20d6 damage only averages to 70 damage. Being that targets can be immune to this move, and you can fail the jump check, and that it takes a fullround action, if you compare it to Strike of Perfect clarity it definately looks like a tradeoff, not insane.
Crimsondagger 12-31-06, 07:32 PM	Actualy I am playing a warblade in two games and a swordsage in another. For the two warblades I use the following three Tiger Claw Iron Heart and Stone dragon Warblade number 1 usses mainly Tiger claw and Iron heart only taking one or two from Stone dragon. Number two takes his main two from Iron heart and Stone dragon and has only a single stance from Tiger claw that gives him scent. The Swordsage is primarly a student of the shadow hand and uses a few of the diamond mind to boost his effectiveness. Lets just say that he even creeps out the assasin we have in the group.
kyeudo 01-01-07, 06:09 PM	Surprised no one has said they like Nine Petaled Blossom yet . . . Personaly, I like Diamond Mind and Iron Heart. Both have manuvers that allow you to rain blows down on your foes like hail, Diamond Mind has the manuvers to boost your saves, and Iron Heart allows you to call a giant out into single combat and best him. I haven't yet got to do much with the Tome of Battle yet, but I have a human warblade statted up that has a few abberant feats so he has an absurd amount of reach that uses some of the trade off stances and strikes from the Iron heart discipline. If they never reach you, they can't take advantage of the AC penalty you gave yourself to pound their face in, and that many AoOs are brutal. If you want to get crazy with gestalt, I think an Egoist/Warblade would be great. Only requires Str, Con, Dex, and Int, just like a standard Warblade, but with the Egoist self-buffing abilities to draw from.
ss3_link0 01-01-07, 07:54 PM	I've only looked at The Tome of Battle a few times, but I really like the Stone Dragon style. I also like the Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind styles.
Neofish 01-01-07, 08:13 PM	Man, it's so hard to choose. I'd say my favorite are the Tiger Claw, Iron Heart and Devoted Spirit styles (in that order). I just like the wild and crazy Tiger claw abilities, and some it stances are super badass (the one where you can take a 5ft. step after every attack and the one where you get an extra attack whenever someone drops within 10ft of you). Iron Heart just has so many different and useful abilities its nuts.With Devoted Spirit you can pretty much become immune to HP damage (throw in some diamond mind and your unkillable).