Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BoringInfoGuy 07-15-07, 04:14 AM	Ok, by the title alone, you've probably figured out that I'm one of the people that finds the fighter class to be lacking something in the current edition. I like fighter class, always have. Played more than a few, as written, and enjoyed it. But still, the class has problems. Please note that I'm only discussing the Core Fighter. Even with the best BAB, good HP, most weapon and armor proficiencies, the fighter doesn't feel like the highly trained combatant that he should be. The problem in not - in my opinion - really a matter of power. What the fighter lacks is enough unique abilities that reflect his role. What is the benefit of the intense training of the Fighter? Is there any other class that is more focused in their role? A fighter fights. He should it well. The fighter already has two unique abilities. The first is his large number of combat related bonus feats. This is the best thing the fighter has going for him. The problem is that just about anything a fighter can do with feats, another class can as well. Worse, other classes can sometimes get more benefit out of the same feats. The second thing that a fighter already has going for him is the ability to take the Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization feats. This is the one thing that is unique to fighters. It lets him take his favored weapon, and use it better than in combat. But every melee class has some class feature to increase their combat ability in certain situations. Barbarians rage, Monks get increased unarmed damage and Flurry, Paladins Smite, Rangers get favored enemies, and Rogues sneak attack. What's really unique about the fighters ability is that he's the only class that has to buy it with feats. As it stands, I think the fighter has good abilities, but not enough. Boring's Fighter Remix, Version 3: Fighter: BAB, Hit Dice, Saves, and Skills stay the same. Class abilities: 1st level: Bonus Feat 2nd level: Bonus Feat 3rd level: Combat Edge +1 4th level: Bonus Feat 5th level: Martial Opportunity +1 6th level: Bonus Feat, 7th level: Combat Edge +2 8th level: Bonus Feat 9th level: Martial Opportunity +2 10th level: Bonus Feat, 11th level: Combat Edge +3 12th level: Bonus Feat 13th level: Martial Opportunity +3 14th level: Bonus Feat, 15th level: Combat Edge +4 16th level: Bonus Feat 17th level: Martial Opportunity +4 18th level: Bonus Feat, 19th level: Combat Edge +5 20th level: Bonus Feat, Improved Standard Attack. New ability descriptions: Combat Edge: The fighter adds the listed bonus to the opposed rolls made during the Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder and Trip Special attacks. This bonus is added both when the fighter is making the attack, and when he is the target of the attack. The fighter trains in many attack styles, giving him an advantage in battle. Plan and simple, this is meant to make the special attack feats viable at higher levels. Also, it makes it so that a fighter has a better chance to succeed on a Special attack that he has not put any feats into. The goal is to make the fighter both a better specialist, and general combatant. It is a bonus to opposed rolls instead of being a Strength bonus so that it includes Feint checks. In my opinion, a fighter may not be a skilled at fooling people he talks with (Bluff a cc skill), that is different than making someone think that he will strike here instead of there. Improved Standard Attack: At 20th level, when the fighter attacks as a Standard action, he may make two attacks, one at his highest BAB, and the second at his next highest BAB (+20/+15). Benefits made while charging only apply to the 1st attack. Only the first attack would get the +2 bonus to hit. A mounted fighter charging with a lance would only apply the double damage to the first attack. A fighter wielding two weapons must still use the Full Attack to attack with his off hand weapon. Smart enemies normally won't stand still and let a fighter get his full attack. Nor will they let a range fighter stand there without something running to threaten him. I may put this lower than 20th level, but to do so, I'd want a new capstone ability for the fighter. Giving the fighter the ability to make all his attacks as a standard action would completely overshadow the Monk's Flurry of Blows ability. So it needs to be something else entirely. Martial Opportunity: The endless training that fighters undergo make them very focused in battle. This focus grants them the ability to remain on guard when distracted, and take greater advantage of the lapse in defense of others. When a fighter provokes an attack of opportunity, the bonus listed is added to his AC. Likewise, when an opponent grants an attack of opportunity to the fighter, he adds the bonus listed to his attack roll. This idea came together with Combat Edge. If a fighter makes a special attack without having an Improved {attack} feat, his target gets an Attack of Opportunity. If the Attack of Opportunity hits, the special attack fails. So this ability makes it harder, but not impossible, to disrupt the fighters attack. I also realized that this would help the fighters mobility problem. He can't move any further, but he can choose to take the direct path to where he wants to go, even if it's through threatened spaces. Adding it to the fighters attack bonus when making an Attack of Opportunity was an idea to make the fighter a more credible threat. It also means that two fighters of equal level have the two bonuses cancel out. The thing I like most about this ability is that none of the base classes (or supplement classes that I've seen, by no means most of them) have anything that improves their ability to make Attacks of Opportunity. So it seemed a great way to increase the Fighters "best overall combat ability" flavor, without stealing the thunder of any other class For comparision Boring's Fighter Remix, Version 2: Fighter: BAB, Hit Dice, Saves, and Skills stay the same. Class abilities: 1st level: Bonus Feat 2nd level: Bonus Feat 3rd level: Combat Edge +1 4th level: Bonus Feat 5th level: Martial Opportunity +1 6th level: Bonus Feat, Bonus Ability Increase 7th level: Combat Edge +2 8th level: Bonus Feat 9th level: Martial Opportunity +2 10th level: Bonus Feat, Bonus Ability Increase 11th level: Combat Edge +3 12th level: Bonus Feat 13th level: Martial Opportunity +3 14th level: Bonus Feat, Bonus Ability Increase 15th level: Combat Edge +4 16th level: Bonus Feat 17th level: Martial Opportunity +4 18th level: Bonus Feat, Bonus Ability Increase 19th level: Combat Edge +5 20th level: Bonus Feat, Improved Standard Attack. New ability descriptions: Bonus Ability Increase: At the indicated levels, the fighter increases his Strength, Dexterity, OR Constitution by one point. He must put this increase onto whichever score is lowest. If this increase happens at the same level the fighter gets a standard ability increase, he must apply the standard Increase before the Bonus Increase. This increase is the benefit of the rigorous physical training that fighters constantly undergo. The idea for this came from thinking about how the fighter is built in 3rd edition. The main thing that a fighter gets is what every class gets, feats. The fighter just gets more, but the extra one's are only related to combat. So why not take the other thing that everyone gets as they level, Ability Increases, and give the fighter bonus Increases related to combat? By limiting it to the fighter's weakest physical score, it prevents the player from dumping all of his increases into one stat. What it is really meant to do is free up the player to put higher starting stats into his mental abilities. Also, it allows the fighter to spend less gold on gear to overcoming weakness, and more on improving strength. Even so, this ability is the most likely to be removed from this remix. Combat Edge: The fighter adds the listed bonus to the opposed rolls made during the Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder and Trip Special attacks. This bonus is added both when the fighter is making the attack, and when he is the target of the attack. The fighter trains in many attack styles, giving him an advantage in battle. Plan and simple, this is meant to make the special attack feats viable at higher levels. Also, it makes it so that a fighter has a better chance to succeed on a Special attack that he has not put any feats into. The goal is to make the fighter both a better specialist, and general combatant. It is a bonus to opposed rolls instead of being a Strength bonus so that it includes Feint checks. In my opinion, a fighter may not be a skilled at fooling people he talks with (Bluff a cc skill), that is different than making someone think that he will strike here instead of there. Improved Standard Attack: At 20th level, when the fighter attacks as a Standard action, he may make two attacks, one at his highest BAB, and the second at his next highest BAB (+20/+15). Benefits made while charging only apply to the 1st attack. Only the first attack would get the +2 bonus to hit. A mounted fighter charging with a lance would only apply the double damage to the first attack. A fighter wielding two weapons must still use the Full Attack to attack with his off hand weapon. Smart enemies normally won't stand still and let a fighter get his full attack. Nor will they let a range fighter stand there without something running to threaten him. I may put this lower than 20th level, but to do so, I'd want a new capstone ability for the fighter. Giving the fighter the ability to make all his attacks as a standard action would completely overshadow the Monk's Flurry of Blows ability. So it needs to be something else entirely. Martial Opportunity: The endless training that fighters undergo make them very focused in battle. This focus grants them the ability to remain on guard when distracted, and take greater advantage of the lapse in defense of others. When a fighter provokes an attack of opportunity, the bonus listed is added to his AC. Likewise, when an opponent grants an attack of opportunity to the fighter, he adds the bonus listed to his attack roll. This idea came together with Combat Edge. If a fighter makes a special attack without having an Improved {attack} feat, his target gets an Attack of Opportunity. If the Attack of Opportunity hits, the special attack fails. So this ability makes it harder, but not impossible, to disrupt the fighters attack. I also realized that this would help the fighters mobility problem. He can't move any further, but he can choose to take the direct path to where he wants to go, even if it's through threatened spaces. Adding it to the fighters attack bonus when making an Attack of Opportunity was an idea to make the fighter a more credible threat. It also means that two fighters of equal level have the two bonuses cancel out. The thing I like most about this ability is that none of the base classes (or supplement classes that I've seen, by no means most of them) have anything that improves their ability to make Attacks of Opportunity. So it seemed a great way to increase the Fighters "best overall combat ability" flavor, without stealing the thunder of any other class Fighter: BAB, Hit Dice, Saves, and Skills stay the same. Class abilities: 1st level: Bonus Feat 2nd level: Bonus Feat 3rd level: Combat Edge +1 4th level: Bonus Feat 5th level: Master of Opportunity +1 6th level: Bonus Feat, Bonus Ability Increase 7th level: Combat Edge +2 8th level: Bonus Feat 9th level: Master of Opportunity +2 10th level: Bonus Feat, Bonus Ability Increase 11th level: Combat Edge +3 12th level: Bonus Feat 13th level: Master of Opportunity +3 14th level: Bonus Feat, Bonus Ability Increase 15th level: Combat Edge +4 16th level: Bonus Feat 17th level: Master of Opportunity +4 18th level: Bonus Feat, Bonus Ability Increase 19th level: Combat Edge +5 20th level: Bonus Feat, Improved Standard Attack. New ability descriptions: Bonus Ability Increase: At the indicated levels, the fighter increases his Strength, Dexterity, OR Constitution by one point. This increase is the benefit of the rigorous physical training that fighters constantly undergo. Combat Edge: The fighter adds the listed bonus to the opposed rolls made during the Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder and Trip Special attacks. This bonus is added both when the fighter is making the attack, and when he is the target of the attack. The fighter trains constantly in many attack forms, giving him an advantage in battle. Improved Standard Attack: At 20th level, when the fighter attacks as a Standard action, he may make two attacks, one at his highest BAB, and the second at his next highest BAB (+20/+15). Benefits made while charging only apply to the 1st attack. Only the first attack would get the +2 bonus to hit. A mounted fighter charging with a lance would only apply the double damage to the first attack. A fighter wielding two weapons must still use the Full Attack to attack with his off hand weapon. Master of Opportunity: The endless training that fighters undergo make them very focused in battle. This focus grants them the ability to remain on guard when distracted, and take greater advantage of the lapse in defense of others. When a fighter provokes an attack of opportunity, the bonus listed is added to his AC. Likewise, when an opponent grants an attack of opportunity to the fighter, he adds the bonus listed to his attack roll. In Conclusion: I know that many of you are pretty tired of fighter threads. But I ask for your honest, constructive comments. Too powerful? Too weak? Too complicated? Better wording? Better ability names? Some additional notes: Basic Rules for the build: 1) No magic based abilities. 2) No abilities that remove or negate the abilities of another core class 3) Should remain fairly simple to play. Also, if you say that ability X is too weak or too strong, I will probably argue with you. THIS DOES NOT MEAN I AM DISMISSING YOUR THOUGHTS. It means I am not yet convinced, and I WANT you to provide further support for why you think it needs work. Debate is a great way to bring out all the pro's and con's.
Ghostwheel 07-15-07, 04:56 AM	Here is an additional idea: Every five levels of Fighter increase the chance of an automatic hit by +1 when the the fighter is attacking to cause damage. Trip, sunder, disarm and all other attacks would be unaffected by this ability, as would any chance to score a critical hit. Simply put: 5th level Fighter= 19-20 is an automatic hit. 10th level Fighter= 18-20 is an automatic hit. 15th level Fighter= 17-20 is an automatic hit. 20th level Fighter= 16-20 is an automatic hit. This would change nothing at the lowest levels. But as a Fighter's prowess progressed, so would the usefulness of iterative attacks similarly progress! Also note that this would not alter miss-chances (that is another thing altogether). And if this was a class feature, then nobody would argue that it should be a Feat. :fight!:
LoneFlame 07-15-07, 12:07 PM	And here's another idea (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=869670)(see bottom post). It's been tweaked a little since it was posted in that topic. Adding some suggestions from this topic (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=13078017#post13078017)
Aricomus 07-15-07, 02:56 PM	I like the improved standard attack idea... alot, but I think 20th level is a little late for it. Why not something like 8th or 12th lvl?
Leo 07-15-07, 06:50 PM	If this keeps at this rate, we'll have more fighter fixes than custom classes.
BoringInfoGuy 07-15-07, 07:05 PM	I like the improved standard attack idea... alot, but I think 20th level is a little late for it. Why not something like 8th or 12th lvl? Thank you for your comment. I put it at 20th level as a capstone ability for the fighter. I was trying to come up with something that rewards a player for sticking with the class. When I first came up with it, it allowed the fighter to make all of his attacks as a standard action. The idea was this would help the "Just ignore the fighter and get his allies" problem. If the fighter can reach you, be it a charge or just a move and attack, he can bring on the hurt. The fighter would have to be considered a threat by enemies. But getting all 4 attacks was too much, even at 20th level. Now, in it's current version, I can see putting it lower. But not 8th or 12th. At those levels the fighter is already getting access to his Greater W Focus and Greater W Specialization feats. 16th would be the lowest level that I would consider. But that leaves me without a capstone ability to put at 20th level.
BoringInfoGuy 07-15-07, 07:38 PM	Here is an additional idea: Every five levels of Fighter increase the chance of an automatic hit by +1 when the the fighter is attacking to cause damage. Trip, sunder, disarm and all other attacks would be unaffected by this ability, as would any chance to score a critical hit. Simply put: 5th level Fighter= 19-20 is an automatic hit. 10th level Fighter= 18-20 is an automatic hit. 15th level Fighter= 17-20 is an automatic hit. 20th level Fighter= 16-20 is an automatic hit. This would change nothing at the lowest levels. But as a Fighter's prowess progressed, so would the usefulness of iterative attacks similarly progress! Also note that this would not alter miss-chances (that is another thing altogether). And if this was a class feature, then nobody would argue that it should be a Feat. :fight!: I just figured out what you were going for here. The difference between the critical threat range and auto hit on less than a nat 20 could be confusing to explain to players. Three considerations. 1) Wouldn't it make weapons with a higher crit range more powerful? Not to mention adding in the Improved Critical feat. The weakness of high crit threat weapons is that the critical threat fails if the attack is a miss. 2) This version of the fighter already has four new abilities. Wouldn't adding a fifth be going overboard? 3) The Improved Standard Attack already lets the fighter get his first iterative attack anytime he makes a standard attack. Improved Auto Hit would let him connect more often. Both together feels like too much to me. I want the fighter to be able to contribute more, and at higher levels. But not at the expense of making the Barbarian, Ranger, and other classes seem weak in comparison.
Dragom 07-15-07, 09:18 PM	How about this: Archetype Archer: Spot and Hide are Class skills, Steady Shot is awarded at level 7, Penetrating shot is awarded at level 11, Head Shot is Awarded at level 13, Improved Head Shot at level 17. Defender: Listen and Heal are Class skills, Bullwark is awarded at 7th, Immobility is awarded at level 11, Improved Immobility is Awarded at level 13, Defending Wall at level 17. Royal: Diplomacy and Bluff are Class skills, Leadership is Awarded at 7th as a Bonus Feat, Clout is awarded at level 11, Improved Clout is Awarded at level 13, Inheritance at level 17. Steady Shot: Using a full round action to fire a single arrow at your highest Attack Bonus you get a +2 to Hit and Damage, Max range applies, Other wise the Target is treated as being within 30ft of you for the purposes of this shot even when it is not. Penetrating Shot: When using a Steady Shot you may ignore Concealment less then total Concealment. Head Shot: When using Steady Shot if you confirm a Critical hit the target must must make a Fortitude Save VS the Damage dealt or die. (Creatures immune to extra damage from Critical hits or sneak attack damage are of course immune to this effect as well) Improved Head shot: The Required DC becomes Damage Dealt + your Intelligence modifier. Bullwark: Your Con Bonus can replace your Dex Bonus for the purposes of AC. It still does not apply if you are flat-footed or would other wise be denied your Dex bonus. Immobility: If you spend an entire round not moving you gain a +4 bonus on all saves and checks to avoid moving or loosing your footing until you move or are moved. Improved Immobility: If you spend an entire round not moving you gain a DR/- equal to half your fighter level until you move or are moved. Defending Wall: You block all line of effect. You are still vulnerable to effects your self. Line effects stop at you, if a line cannot be drawn from the Effect Origin to the target without drawing the line through your space it has no effect on that target. Targets partially eclipsed by you (not all 4 corners of the space occupied by the target are obscured) recieve a bonus to there save (if any) equal to Half your Fighter Level. Clout: If you reveal your Identity to anyone in or from your home country who isn't a ranking Noble you recieve a bonus equal to your fighter level on your next Charisma based check made against them. You can only reveal your Identity once per person. Improced Clout: If you reveal your Identity to anyone not from your home country who isn't a ranking Noble you recieve a bonus equal to your half fighter level on your next Charisma based check made against them. You can only reveal your Identity once per person. Inheritance: You may buy a Mansion, Villa or Castle for half the normal price, 500 gp worth of monthly employee sallaries are paid for by the state. The heirarchy may add stippulations about the location and you may be required to maintain a certain level of troops or to host company with or without notice as may or may not be required. (Yes you will have to hire more then just healers, alchemists and enchanters) Or should the Archetype bonuses start at 11th as opposed to 7th?
BoringInfoGuy 07-15-07, 10:24 PM	Um, Dragom? No offense, but I'm looking for comments and suggestions on my build. If you want to show off yours, wouldn't it be better to start your own topic?
Dragom 07-15-07, 10:36 PM	Sorry, it started as a suggestion and BAM it was a half hour latter.
LoneFlame 07-16-07, 12:53 AM	Is it me, or do we have a lot of Fighter Improvement topics?
aelryinth 07-16-07, 01:44 AM	another splurge/surge of them is all. Comments: You aren't messing with the base Chassis. You grant 25 Feat Equivalents over time, one per level. You increase the number of feats by 0, but add two scaling abilities. 1) I'd tie Combat Edge and Martial Opportunity to either # of fighter bonus feats, or a statistic (like Int, Wis or Cha...fighter's choice!). By tying it to their choice of a mental ability score, you create a strong flavor for the character. By tying it to bonus feats you encourage the person to stick to the Fighter class. BTW, Int = tactical fighter, combat genius, Wis = practical fighter, experienced Cha= Commanding Fighter, confident, 'lucky' 2) The ability score increase is too strong if tacked on top fo the normal one. Put in the kicker that this automatically applies to the LOWEST of the three scores mentioned, and it becomes balanced. I'd also make it an inherent bonus, but that's me. 3) As a Capstone, just let him make a full attack as a standard action. This isn't imbalanced at that level, and is only marginally better then a pounce. Two attacks as a SA is a 10/11th level ability. It also reflects what a Warblade is capable of 4 levels sooner with the likes of Diamond Nightmare Blade and Strike of Perfect Clarity. ==Aelryinth
BoringInfoGuy 07-16-07, 01:54 PM	Sorry, it started as a suggestion and BAM it was a half hour latter. I can understand that. Here's what my current ideas do for a ranged fighter. Master of Opportunity gives them better AC when using ranged attacks while threatened. Bonus Ability Increase lets them up raise their Dex higher / faster, to qualify for the better ranged feats. Improved Standard Attack lets them move and shoot twice, when they are trying to keep their distance from foes. I think a range fighter would do well with this build. When I was trying to come up with these ideas, I wanted to make certain they would work for multiple fighter concepts.
BoringInfoGuy 07-16-07, 04:09 PM	another splurge/surge of them is all. Comments: You aren't messing with the base Chassis. No, nor did I intend to. I know some people think that the fighter needs to be rebuilt, along with the D20 system, from the ground up. My hope is that a smaller adjustment will be enough to help the fighter. Consider if the rogue did not have the Sneak Attack ability. He would have very little to do usefully in combat. I'm thinking about the rest of your comments. I'll reply later after I have more time.
tenguroEd 07-16-07, 04:52 PM	Sounds good. How about adding the warblades ability to train for an hour and change one feat of his choice(weapon aptitude), look it up in the tome of battle underneath the warblades class abilities(obviously) I mentioned this, in the fighter...realistic, in the redgard repository, but nobody seems to recgonize a great class ability there.
BoringInfoGuy 07-16-07, 06:41 PM	Sounds good. How about adding the warblades ability to train for an hour and change one feat of his choice(weapon aptitude), look it up in the tome of battle underneath the warblades class abilities(obviously) I mentioned this, in the fighter...realistic, in the redgard repository, but nobody seems to recgonize a great class ability there. Because the Warblade's ability to change a feat each day makes no sense to me. Maybe the Warblade has some magical aptitude that accounts for it, but the fighter? No. It's not exactly stated as such in the PHB, but I see the fighter bonus feats as being the benefits of his training. As others have said, the fighter is not someone who suddenly picked up a sword and decided on a life of adventure. He is a highly trained combatant. What other class is so focused? Just as a wizard studies to master the forces of magic during the downtime between adventurers, the fighter trains diligently to master his combat skills. I just can't see the fighter, after having spent countless hours mastering a feat, could suddenly forget that to have a new one. And with only an hour training? Feats are not like spells, to be changed each day. Besides, if I wanted to use Warblade abilities, why should I bother rebuilding the Fighter? I could just make the Warblade the new fighter in my game.
mkill 07-16-07, 09:43 PM	It's not exactly stated as such in the PHB, but I see the fighter bonus feats as being the benefits of his training. As others have said, the fighter is not someone who suddenly picked up a sword and decided on a life of adventure. He is a highly trained combatant. What other class is so focused? The PHB classes, and especially the fighter, are meant to catch a broad range of archetypes. While you may see the fighter as a highly trained combatant, it says nowhere that a fighter can't be just a brute that liked to beat people up from early childhood, or a peasant boy who discovers he's destined to save the kingdom. What you mix here is pure game mechanics and individual ideas about character backgrounds. If you want your fighter to be a highly trained martial specialist, it's fine, but don't force your view on the characters of other people. Besides, if I wanted to use Warblade abilities, why should I bother rebuilding the Fighter? I could just make the Warblade the new fighter in my game. ... and there's nothing wrong with that.
mkill 07-16-07, 09:58 PM	The problem in not - in my opinion - really a matter of power. What the fighter lacks is enough unique abilities that reflect his role. What is the benefit of the intense training of the Fighter? Is there any other class that is more focused in their role? A fighter fights. He should it well. Looks like you missed half of the fighter threads (who would blame you) and lots of other points of criticism, such as - no defense against save-or-die spells and other magic attacks - lack of mobility - heavily dependent on equipment - linear power curve, compared to quadratic power curve of wizard, cleric etc. - shoe-horned into one tactic without the change to retrain - even with heavy AOO builds it is still much too easy to avoid AOOs, as Tumble DC 25 or Concentration DC 20 are cake for high-level characters - the higher the CRs, the bigger the monsters get, and the fighter is an automatic loser with Grapple, Trip etc. - sunder reduces party wealth, making that maneuver useless - even if you disarm someone, he can still just pick up that weapon because it lands in his own square Your "fix" does not address any of those The second thing that a fighter already has going for him is the ability to take the Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization feats. This is the one thing that is unique to fighters. It lets him take his favored weapon, and use it better than in combat. Weapon Specialization made sense in AD&D, where the featless fighter had to have one little thing for himself. In D&D, it should have just been a general feat. I really don't see the necessity for fighter-only feats, not with 20+ other melee classes out that could specialize on weapons just as well. Really, as long as the fighter has a power curve that keeps up with other classes, I couldn't care less whether any of his abilities are "unique". In the end, I want to kill monsters and take their stuff, and it doesn't matter whether I'm "special". Bonus Ability Increase: At the indicated levels, the fighter increases his Strength, Dexterity, OR Constitution by one point. This increase is the benefit of the rigorous physical training that fighters constantly undergo. No. Nein. Njet. Nada. Dame. Ability scores are ability scores, class features are class features. No class should ever get ability score bonuses, leave that to races and templates. Racial paragon classes are bad enough, but they are in a grey area. But base classes... definitely NO. Combat Edge: The fighter adds the listed bonus to the opposed rolls made during the Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder and Trip Special attacks. This bonus is added both when the fighter is making the attack, and when he is the target of the attack. This one is actually good. But I don't consider it a fighter fix because it does not grant abilities you can't get with fighter feats anyway. Improved Standard Attack: At 20th level, when the fighter attacks as a Standard action, he may make two attacks, one at his highest BAB, and the second at his next highest BAB (+20/+15). As a capstone, this is not bad, but it nowhere adresses the broad range of tactics a fighter could employ. AOO specialists, TWFers and spiked chain trippers don't really benefit from such an ability. Master of Opportunity: The endless training that fighters undergo make them very focused in battle. This focus grants them the ability to remain on guard when distracted, and take greater advantage of the lapse in defense of others. When a fighter provokes an attack of opportunity, the bonus listed is added to his AC. Likewise, when an opponent grants an attack of opportunity to the fighter, he adds the bonus listed to his attack roll. So it's basicly an attack bonus on AOOs and a free, more general Mobility feat? If there's anything a "Master of Opportunity" ability should do, it's to raise the Tumble and Concentration DC of enemies to avoid your AOOs.
BoringInfoGuy 07-16-07, 11:38 PM	You grant 25 Feat Equivalents over time, one per level. You increase the number of feats by 0, but add two scaling abilities. I'll admit to being new at this. Is 25 Feat Equivalents an overly high number for a class? How exactly is it calculated? As for giving a couple of scaling abilities, that was something that seemed lacking. Feats - for the most part - don't get better with level. The most notable exception is Power Attack. As your BAB goes up, you can trade more and more of your chance to hit into extra damage. But realistically, you can only apply so much of your chance to hit before you start missing too much for it to be worth it. 1) I'd tie Combat Edge and Martial Opportunity to either # of fighter bonus feats, or a statistic (like Int, Wis or Cha...fighter's choice!). By tying it to their choice of a mental ability score, you create a strong flavor for the character. By tying it to bonus feats you encourage the person to stick to the Fighter class. BTW, Int = tactical fighter, combat genius, Wis = practical fighter, experienced Cha= Commanding Fighter, confident, 'lucky' Going with the number of fighter bonus feats would make it easier to calculate the bonuses at epic levels. When I start changing things around to add improvements based on others suggestions, I may use that method. Tying it to a Fighters mental score would create good flavor. But I don't want to make the fighter less SAD than he already is. And it is important to me that you need to keep taking fighter levels to gain the better fighter abilities. 2) The ability score increase is too strong if tacked on top fo the normal one. Put in the kicker that this automatically applies to the LOWEST of the three scores mentioned, and it becomes balanced. I'd also make it an inherent bonus, but that's me. Ok, I think you are right. I worked out the bonuses if both a barbarian and a fighter started with an 18 strength, and continued adding to their STR each chance they got up to level 20. Assume both are using a two handed weapon, which the fighter has specialized in, while the barbarian is Raging. No magical bonuses. Core only. The fighter would have a 27 STR, granting a normal +8 to hit and +12 to damage. After specializing, he gets a +10 to hit and +16 to damage. In comparision, the barbarian would have a 23 STR, granting a normal +6 to hit and +9 to damage. Rage would raise him to 31 STR, granting a +10 to hit and +15 to damage. (Please point out any mistakes on my math) Same bonus to hit, but the fighter edges out the barbarian in damage. While the barbarian is also getting the Con and Will save bonuses also, that does not quite seem to balance against the fighter getting better damage every round. The fighter can also focus his attributes more, so he is more likely to have a higher STR to start with in PB character generation. Add in the extra hits from Improved Standard Attack. . . I'll either remove it, or make it only apply to the lowest. Maybe just make it so you can't place it on the highest? But what's the logic for that? The original idea behind it was to let people who want to start with higher Mental stats, while being able to still have good physical stats later on. 3) As a Capstone, just let him make a full attack as a standard action. This isn't imbalanced at that level, and is only marginally better then a pounce. Two attacks as a SA is a 10/11th level ability. It also reflects what a Warblade is capable of 4 levels sooner with the likes of Diamond Nightmare Blade and Strike of Perfect Clarity. ==Aelryinth I'm not too worried about comparing it to the Warblade. But I am concerned about comparing it to the other Core classes. Giving the fighter his full attack as a Standard action makes the Monk's Flurry of Blows completely worthless.
BoringInfoGuy 07-17-07, 01:54 AM	Looks like you missed half of the fighter threads (who would blame you) and lots of other points of criticism, such as - no defense against save-or-die spells and other magic attacks Some class needs to be weak against it. My goal is not to make the fighter a class without weaknesses - lack of mobility Instead of giving the fighter a better move rate, which the Barbarian and Monk already have, I went with the ability to take the direct route with greater safety. (Master of Opportunity) - heavily dependent on equipment This is less true of other melee classes? I was thinking that Bonus Ability Increase would help with that. But it's too much as written. - linear power curve, compared to quadratic power curve of wizard, cleric etc. True of all melee types. - shoe-horned into one tactic without the change to retrain Have you considered what Combat Edge and Master of Opportunity do together? At higher levels, Combat Edge gives you the primary benefit of the Improved Trip, Grapple, Sunder etc feats. Master of Opportunity, by raising the Fighter's AC vs Attacks of Opportunity, makes the fighter's attacks harder to interrupt. The fighter becomes a better combat generalist, and a master of any special attack he puts feats into. - even with heavy AOO builds it is still much too easy to avoid AOOs, as Tumble DC 25 or Concentration DC 20 are cake for high-level characters Honestly, adding the Master of Opportunity bonus to attacks made against opponents who provoke the Attack of Opportunity was pretty much an afterthought. However, someone who makes wants to do such a build certainly wouldn't complain about this ability. - the higher the CRs, the bigger the monsters get, and the fighter is an automatic loser with Grapple, Trip etc. Not every monster at high levels is a colossal dragon. The DMG lists a 20th level NPC fighter as having a STR of 26, after ability score increases and magic items. Let's use that as a base. The standard grapple modifier is BAB + STR Mod + Size. Improved Grapple adds another +4. Combat Edge adds another +5 by 20th level. So a grapple specialist would add up as follows. So, that is 20 (BAB) + 8 (STR Mod) = 28 + 0 (size) = 28 + 4 (Imp Grap) = 32 + 5 (Edge) = 37. CR 18: Nightcrawler, Grapple = 34. CR 20: Balor, Grapple = 36. Pit Fiend, Grapple = 35. Tarrasque, Grapple = 81. CR 21: Titan, Grapple =44. CR 22: Solar (angel), Grapple =35. These are the all the Monsters with a CR from 18 to 22, a fairly standard challenge for 20th level characters. This sample fighter actually has a slight advantage over everything except the Titan. The Titan's Grapple is 7 higher. But a simple Enlarge Spell from an ally (Team game, remember?), or a Potion of Enlarge, lowers the Titans advantage to 3. Challenging, but not impossible. And that same Enlarge spell gives the grapple fighter a definite advantage against the rest of the creatures I listed (excluding the Tarrasque). Hardly an automatic loser. - sunder reduces party wealth, making that maneuver useless Useless? No. But you do need to consider the gain / loss analysis. As a general rule, I never discount any combat strategy out of hand. Doing so limits yourself. - even if you disarm someone, he can still just pick up that weapon because it lands in his own square If you disarm with a weapon. You can attempt to disarm with with your bare hands, but you take penalties for doing so. But if you succeed, you are instead holding the weapon. Even if you just disarm with a weapon, when he reaches down to pick it up, he provokes an Attack of Opportunity that he can't avoid due to tumble or concentration. Oh, and I gave a bonus to that attack. Your "fix" does not address any of those Perhaps you should think again. Weapon Specialization made sense in AD&D, where the featless fighter had to have one little thing for himself. In D&D, it should have just been a general feat. I really don't see the necessity for fighter-only feats, not with 20+ other melee classes out that could specialize on weapons just as well. You are welcome to your opinion. Really, as long as the fighter has a power curve that keeps up with other classes, I couldn't care less whether any of his abilities are "unique". In the end, I want to kill monsters and take their stuff, and it doesn't matter whether I'm "special". Again, you are welcome to your opinion. Bonus Ability Increase No. Nein. Njet. Nada. Dame. Ability scores are ability scores, class features are class features. No class should ever get ability score bonuses, leave that to races and templates. Racial paragon classes are bad enough, but they are in a grey area. But base classes... definitely NO. Actually, if you remember in AD&D, I think it was only the human fighter who got to roll for exceptional Strength if he rolled a natural 18 in strength. So that's not really a new idea But I do think that it needs to go, or at least get nerfed, in it's current version. Combat Edge This one is actually good. But I don't consider it a fighter fix because it does not grant abilities you can't get with fighter feats anyway. No, it doesn't. But it lets the fighter be competent at them without needing to buy the feats. And it improves the feats that are taken at higher levels so they remain useful longer. Even if you want to do a fighter build that doesn't use any of the Improved Special Attack feat, it becomes a defensive ability when someone attempts those attacks against the fighter. Improved Standard Attack As a capstone, this is not bad, but it nowhere adresses the broad range of tactics a fighter could employ. AOO specialists, TWFers and spiked chain trippers don't really benefit from such an ability. Do you really think that there is a fighter build that doesn't benefit from being able to move and make two attacks? Can't say much for the Attack of Opportunity Specialists (not too familiar with them). But a would a TWF turn up his nose up at getting a second attack when he closes with an enemy? When he can make a full attack, he gets the benefits of his TWF feats. When he can't, he gets to make two attacks instead of one. Spike chain trippers can move, and try to make two trip attacks instead of one. Range fighters get to move, and make two attacks instead of one. THF get to move, and make two attacks. So it's basicly an attack bonus on AOOs and a free, more general Mobility feat? If there's anything a "Master of Opportunity" ability should do, it's to raise the Tumble and Concentration DC of enemies to avoid your AOOs. Well, I think that I've shown that it does a little bit more than that. Of course, if you take Mobility with it, you've made yourself very difficult to hit while moving. He may not have the high movement rate, but he could pretty much go wherever he felt like.
BoringInfoGuy 07-18-07, 09:18 PM	See first post for updated version.
The_Unseen_Illusion 07-19-07, 03:51 AM	In one Fighter Fix-Up I saw something that allowed a fighter to change his feats that apply to weapons at the begining of each day at first level. I LOVED that idea, it gave the fighter a lot of versatility. And then at 20th level that ability increased to be able to change any fighter feats you have at the begining of each day. I would like to see that included in this build, but maybe limit it to 1-2 feats a day, seeing as it might overpower your fighter there
nonsi 07-19-07, 07:01 AM	Hi BoringInfoGuy, Great Work, wonderful approach and an ingenious inspiration. I must say that this is the only Fighter build I've ever seen that I really felt could easily rival mine (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=773897), which was designed for massive modifications to all classes. The only thing from my build I'd add to your's, is "Combat Orientation". The only problem I can think about with your build, granted all other classes remain pretty much as they are core, is that the Barbarian would need a little boost (have no idea what kind of, I don't really like the class thematically anyway, so I'll leave it up to you). If you tweaked the Barbarian altogether, it'd be reasonable to give the Fighter 4 skill points multiplier (plus some more class-skills) and maybe (just maybe) Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge along the way. This would make the Fighter the true dominant of the melee arena. Oh, and don't be too offended by "mkill". He practically summed up his approach: "In the end, I want to kill monsters and take their stuff".
BoringInfoGuy 07-19-07, 11:15 AM	Hi BoringInfoGuy, Great Work, wonderful approach and an ingenious inspiration. I must say that this is the only Fighter build I've ever seen that I really felt could easily rival mine (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=773897), which was designed for massive modifications to all classes. The only thing from my build I'd add to your's, is "Combat Orientation". The only problem I can think about with your build, granted all other classes remain pretty much as they are core, is that the Barbarian would need a little boost (have no idea what kind of, I don't really like the class thematically anyway, so I'll leave it up to you). If you tweaked the Barbarian altogether, it'd be reasonable to give the Fighter 4 skill points multiplier (plus some more class-skills) and maybe (just maybe) Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge along the way. This would make the Fighter the true dominant of the melee arena. Oh, and don't be too offended by "mkill". He practically summed up his approach: "In the end, I want to kill monsters and take their stuff". Glad you liked it. Where you find the Barbarian lacking? Most importantly, does some part of my rebuild steal the barbarian's thunder, or are you talking about a general weakness which is there regardless of my build? More questions / comments later.
BoringInfoGuy 07-19-07, 07:12 PM	Oh, and don't be too offended by "mkill". He practically summed up his approach: "In the end, I want to kill monsters and take their stuff". Wasn't offended by mkill at all. I'm a bit worried that he thinks I'm just dismissing his opinions, since he never replied to my last post to him. On the contrary, dissenting opinions are useful, since I tend to see only the positive sides to my build. I will defend my build, but I can be convinced that I am wrong. And I will admit it. Back to my build, I'm not certain about Bonus Ability Increase yet. In version 1, it was too tempting to abuse. In version 2, it's all but guaranteed to make the lowest two physical stats the same. For the errata, the lowest stat includes inherent bonuses from wish, manuals, etc, but not bonuses from items like a belt of giant strength. Maybe I'm just over thinking it, since a player is likely to put stat increasing items on the stat he prefers, keeping his bonuses different. Nor would it really be a problem if they are the same. It just sits a bit wrong, for some reason.
nonsi 07-19-07, 07:48 PM	Glad you liked it. Where you find the Barbarian lacking? Most importantly, does some part of my rebuild steal the barbarian's thunder, or are you talking about a general weakness which is there regardless of my build? More questions / comments later. Combine Whirlwind Attack (4 feats) with Weapon Supremacy (6 feats) and Rappid Blitz (5 feats, but 3 overlap with the Whirlwind Attack tree)....... and you still got 6 or 7 extra feats for Spinning Halberd, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip and Great Cleave. The barb's temporary hit & damage output can in no way rival that. Regarding the barb's skills, I see no major advantage over there either. Regarding DR and Trap-sense - it usually makes no difference at high levels, when the numbers start to build up.
nonsi 07-19-07, 07:56 PM	Maybe I'm just over thinking it, since a player is likely to put stat increasing items on the stat he prefers, keeping his bonuses different. Nor would it really be a problem if they are the same. It just sits a bit wrong, for some reason. I don't think it should pose any issue. Rigorous physical training has a tendency of making you "catch up" with your less successful abilities. It's a simple fact of life. The sucky abilities tend to improve faster.
Aricomus 07-21-07, 01:28 AM	I still think the improved standard attack should come earlier, but I know you need another capstone ability, so I've been thinking... (I'm not very good at this sort of thing, so please be gentle in your critiques) Still Needs a Name (I was thinking "fatal blow") At 20th level, the fighter is a killing machine. He can use this ability once per 5 fighter levels per day. He must announce that he is using this ability (a full round action) before making his attack roll. When he uses this ability, he puts all his might into a single attack. If the attack is successful, the target must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC= damage done?) or die instanly from the sheer force of the blow. (I was also thinking if this ability need a small mitigating factor that the fighter can not act on his next turn so he can recover/recharge) I thought this wouldn't be too powerful because it is similar to the monk's quivering palm attack. It probably needs a little work, but hopefully it's a good start. BTW this is one of the best fighter fixes I've seen so far.
BoringInfoGuy 07-22-07, 12:53 PM	I still think the improved standard attack should come earlier, but I know you need another capstone ability, so I've been thinking... (I'm not very good at this sort of thing, so please be gentle in your critiques) Still Needs a Name (I was thinking "fatal blow") At 20th level, the fighter is a killing machine. He can use this ability once per 5 fighter levels per day. He must announce that he is using this ability (a full round action) before making his attack roll. When he uses this ability, he puts all his might into a single attack. If the attack is successful, the target must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC= damage done?) or die instantly from the sheer force of the blow. (I was also thinking if this ability need a small mitigating factor that the fighter can not act on his next turn so he can recover/recharge) I thought this wouldn't be too powerful because it is similar to the monk's quivering palm attack. It probably needs a little work, but hopefully it's a good start. BTW this is one of the best fighter fixes I've seen so far. Gentle it is. Besides, it's not a bad idea. So, the idea is to give the fighter a save or die attack. Save or Die attacks are pretty much all magical abilities (Quivering Palm is Supernatural). That would lead me to say no, going by my no magical abilities for fighters rule. BUT There is a save or die rule that has nothing to do with magic. Death by Massive Damage. If a PC takes 50 or more damage from a single attack, he must make a DC 15 Fortitude save or die. So, as a capstone ability, we could say that the fighter has learned how to make especially traumatic blows by 20th level. Still You have set several limitations on this ability, so that it can't be used endlessly by the fighter. This is good. But I do have a problem with the 1 use per 5 fighter levels a day method. Abilities that have a number of uses per day are almost always supernatural or spell like abilities. Rage is the only extraordinary ability with per day uses that I can think of. (There are probably more). But the limitation of Rage can be justified by saying that the barbarian's body can only handle the strain caused by rage a certain number of times a day. That fits with the penalties a barbarian gets after Rage ends. So if this blow is not magical, what is the justification for it being limited in its number of uses per day? How about tying into the critical hit system? Either something where every confirmed critical causes a save or die with a lower DC, or only critical threats that are confirmed with a critical threat provoke a save or die, but this time with a higher DC. BTW, Thank you.
Aricomus 07-22-07, 11:37 PM	Thank you for your kind words... I forgot about the massive damage thing, that's not a bad idea. I don't play fighters often (not because of how "bad" they are, but because I prefer magic), but If a fighter is capable of dealing at least 25 points per single attack, then how about an attack that doubles damage damage? I'm not sure about the reasoning behind the times per day (how about because using so much force in a single attack puts alot of physical strain on the body, similar to rage, as you mentioned). I'm not sure about the critical death or threat on critical death. One seems too frequent and the other too rare. Is there a middle ground we can find? If so, then I think that would be better than the first idea.
BoringInfoGuy 07-23-07, 02:17 AM	Combine Whirlwind Attack (4 feats) with Weapon Supremacy (6 feats) and Rappid Blitz (5 feats, but 3 overlap with the Whirlwind Attack tree)....... and you still got 6 or 7 extra feats for Spinning Halberd, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip and Great Cleave. The barb's temporary hit & damage output can in no way rival that. Regarding the barb's skills, I see no major advantage over there either. Regarding DR and Trap-sense - it usually makes no difference at high levels, when the numbers start to build up. So, it is a problem you see as being inherent to the Class, and not a problem caused by my build then? Let me see though. Well, the Rapid Blitz and Spinning Halberd feats I do not know. So that limits my ability to judge how overpowering the combo you've listed is. However. . . Going by just the Core Feats, Whirlwind Attack isn't that great. First you need to move into position where you can attack as many enemies as possible. Which could mean provoking Attacks of Opportunity (Dodge and mobility help). Then you only get to make your standard attack. All the enemies you've just moved into position with can make their full round attacks on you. On your next turn, you get to make one attack against every creature you can reach at your highest attack bonus. Unless you have a chance to kill them in that attack (which, at higher levels, is not likely - even with specialization) they get to make their full round attacks against you again. Once you start killing foe's, Whirlwind attack prevents you from using Cleave attacks. If you are using a weapon that allows trip attacks, then you can choose to use Whirlwind attack to try and trip everyone. But even that runs into limitations. Whirlwind attack prevents you from taking the free attack from the Improved Trip feat. Also, each trip attempt is a chance to fail the opposed check. On a failed check, you either let go of your weapon, or risk being prone while surrounded by enemies. Neither is a good option. Using Whirlwind attacks with the Improved Disarm and Sunder feats should work well. (Haven't tried it out yet). But both require your foes to be some type of creature using weapons instead of natural attacks. Whirlwind attack tends to look better on paper than in practice. Normally, I find it a better strategy to focus on one enemy at a time, to reduce the number of attacks received each round as quickly as possible. Now, you did include non Core feats that I'm not familiar with. So they could very well remove the limitations I've mentioned. But my power measuring stick is Core Rules. After all, every new book can have new feats or abilities that favor one class more than the others.
Bob Loblaw 07-23-07, 09:02 AM	Bonus Ability Increase: At the indicated levels, the fighter increases his Strength, Dexterity, OR Constitution by one point. This increase is the benefit of the rigorous physical training that fighters constantly undergo. I'm not a big fan of increasing the fighter's attributes through class progression. I was thinking that you could instead use these same increase points to allow the fighter to reduce the attribute prerequisite by the same amount. Maybe he needs to choose a particular attribute at each point but I don't think it should be necessary. By level 18, he would be able to have any attribute 4 points lower than the actual prerequisite. This would reflect his training and give him a huge edge on which feats he can take. There is already plenty of precedent for classes or races to take feats even if they do not qualify for them. This would be the fighter's chance to do the same. Basically, by 18th level he could have Greater Two-Weapon Fighting but would still need a 15 Dexterity. He would only need a 9 Dexterity to take Dodge. What I like about this is that it extends to non-core feats with ease without being overpowered. Combat Edge: The fighter adds the listed bonus to the opposed rolls made during the Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder and Trip Special attacks. This bonus is added both when the fighter is making the attack, and when he is the target of the attack. The fighter trains constantly in many attack forms, giving him an advantage in battle. I like this ability. It really isn't overpowering. There really aren't that many feats that improve the fighter's chance of accomplishing any of those options with the exception of Feint since it is skill based. I don't have a problem with this one at all. +5 by 20th level is really not all that much. Improved Standard Attack: At 20th level, when the fighter attacks as a Standard action, he may make two attacks, one at his highest BAB, and the second at his next highest BAB (+20/+15). Benefits made while charging only apply to the 1st attack. Only the first attack would get the +2 bonus to hit. A mounted fighter charging with a lance would only apply the double damage to the first attack. A fighter wielding two weapons must still use the Full Attack to attack with his off hand weapon. I'm trying to figure out if this ability is too good or not good enough. I like it, and agree that it shouldn't be a full attack done as a standard attack. What about making it so the fighter can make a full attack with a move action that is not actually movement? This would allow the fighter to do some things like: draw a weapon control a frightened mount load a crossbow (basically taking 2 attacks in one round) pick up an item (maybe he was just disarmed) stand up from prone sheathe a weapon Feint Master of Opportunity: The endless training that fighters undergo make them very focused in battle. This focus grants them the ability to remain on guard when distracted, and take greater advantage of the lapse in defense of others. When a fighter provokes an attack of opportunity, the bonus listed is added to his AC. Likewise, when an opponent grants an attack of opportunity to the fighter, he adds the bonus listed to his attack roll. I like this one. Even when combined with the couple of feats out there I know of, it only works for attacks of opportunity which don't happen all the time (but often enough to make this really cool). I was just thinking that it might be interesting to give the fighter an extended threat range by 5 feet. He can only use this to take the attack of opportunity and he would still need to use his 5-foot step to reach his opponent. If he already took his 5-step earlier in the round, then he would not be able to take full advantage of this. I don't think this would be overpowering and would make reach weapons good for attacks of opportunity when creatures get too close. In Conclusion: Basic Rules for the build: 1) No magic based abilities. 2) No abilities that remove or negate the abilities of another core class 3) Should remain fairly simple to play. I think these should be the rules for all class fixes. While I'm sure that some of the fixes are great, they are so complicated that I would never want to play one since I doubt I'd remember everything I could do. If I can't remember, then it is the same as not having the ability at all.
BoringInfoGuy 07-23-07, 11:50 PM	Bonus Ability IncreaseI'm not a big fan of increasing the fighter's attributes through class progression. I was thinking that you could instead use these same increase points to allow the fighter to reduce the attribute prerequisite by the same amount. Maybe he needs to choose a particular attribute at each point but I don't think it should be necessary. By level 18, he would be able to have any attribute 4 points lower than the actual prerequisite. This would reflect his training and give him a huge edge on which feats he can take. There is already plenty of precedent for classes or races to take feats even if they do not qualify for them. This would be the fighter's chance to do the same. Basically, by 18th level he could have Greater Two-Weapon Fighting but would still need a 15 Dexterity. He would only need a 9 Dexterity to take Dodge. What I like about this is that it extends to non-core feats with ease without being overpowered. Hmmm, you are looking at Version 1. How do you like the Version 2 change that makes it so it only applies to the lowest physical stat? As for your suggestion, that would fit the original idea behind the concept. It wasn't meant to help fighters have one uber stat. It was meant to help players qualify for feats like TWF, or to put higher starting scores into his mental stats. Version 2 of the ability does not do that well. It now just about assures that the lowest two physical stats are the same at 20th level. The only question I would have is what would the benefit be for a player who doesn't want to bother with the feats that require turning the Fighter into a Mad character? Combat Edge I like this ability. It really isn't overpowering. There really aren't that many feats that improve the fighter's chance of accomplishing any of those options with the exception of Feint since it is skill based. I don't have a problem with this one at all. +5 by 20th level is really not all that much. Not that much, but enough to be significant. Seems like this one came out pretty well Improved Standard Attack I'm trying to figure out if this ability is too good or not good enough. I like it, and agree that it shouldn't be a full attack done as a standard attack. What about making it so the fighter can make a full attack with a move action that is not actually movement? This would allow the fighter to do some things like: draw a weapon control a frightened mount load a crossbow (basically taking 2 attacks in one round) pick up an item (maybe he was just disarmed) stand up from prone sheathe a weapon Feint I've already dropped the power on this one once. My first version before posting was 4 attacks as a standard action. I've had a hard time balancing it's strength. It eludes that "just right" feel. Adding in a move equivalent (non move) to the full attack could work. So put Improved Standard attack as is at level 16. Two attacks as a standard action, allowing the fighter to move and take two attacks. At level 20, put in Improved Full Attack. When attacking as a full round action, you may make a move equivalent action as a free action. You can not use this action to take a move action. Master of Opportunity I like this one. Even when combined with the couple of feats out there I know of, it only works for attacks of opportunity which don't happen all the time (but often enough to make this really cool). I was just thinking that it might be interesting to give the fighter an extended threat range by 5 feet. He can only use this to take the attack of opportunity and he would still need to use his 5-foot step to reach his opponent. If he already took his 5-step earlier in the round, then he would not be able to take full advantage of this. I don't think this would be overpowering and would make reach weapons good for attacks of opportunity when creatures get too close. This is my favorite of the bunch. It's useful, it fits the fighter well, but hasn't been done by anyone else that I know of. I remember another fighter rebuild where the poster wanted to add the ability to take a five foot step to follow an opponent who tries to take a 5 foot away from the fighter. But he couldn't fit it in. It is an ability I've wanted to use, but haven't for two reasons. One, I couldn't fit it in either. And two, since I've forgotten who it was, I can't give him proper credit for the idea. Your idea could work, but I'd be hesitant to add it directly to Master of Opportunity (or Martial Opportunity as it's currently called). It could end up putting too many aspects in one ability, making it over complicated. As an additional ability would work, but where would I fit it? Basic Rules for the build: 1) No magic based abilities. 2) No abilities that remove or negate the abilities of another core class 3) Should remain fairly simple to play. I think these be the rules for all class fixes. While I'm sure that some of the fixes are great, they are so complicated that I would never want to play one since I doubt I'd remember everything I could do. If I can't remember, then it is the same as not having the ability at all. Well, I wouldn't apply rule 1 to spellcasters. Rule 3 is important for the reasons you state. But Rule 2 is the one near and dear to my heart. Back in my early days of gaming, I played with a group that loved munchkin style house rules. One thing they hated to see was a disadvantage on any of their favorite classes. So they would simply remove them. But if you take away the disadvantage of one class, you end up removing the Advantage of another class. Which would tend to be the classes I liked.
Bob Loblaw 07-24-07, 12:37 AM	Hmmm, you are looking at Version 1. How do you like the Version 2 change that makes it so it only applies to the lowest physical stat? I was looking at Version 2. I was writing quickly before I headed out to work. I'm still not a fan of increasing stats through class levels. As for your suggestion, that would fit the original idea behind the concept. It wasn't meant to help fighters have one uber stat. It was meant to help players qualify for feats like TWF, or to put higher starting scores into his mental stats. Version 2 of the ability does not do that well. It now just about assures that the lowest two physical stats are the same at 20th level. The only question I would have is what would the benefit be for a player who doesn't want to bother with the feats that require turning the Fighter into a Mad character? The same could be asked about the fighter that doesn't want to take Weapon Specialization. If the player isn't going to take advantage of the ability that's the player's problem. I do understand what you mean though so I will put some more thought into this. I tend to prefer fighters that can do many things. The more options the better. Not everyone enjoys this type of fighter so I can see this being wasted. I've already dropped the power on this one once. My first version before posting was 4 attacks as a standard action. I've had a hard time balancing it's strength. It eludes that "just right" feel. Adding in a move equivalent (non move) to the full attack could work. So put Improved Standard attack as is at level 16. Two attacks as a standard action, allowing the fighter to move and take two attacks. At level 20, put in Improved Full Attack. When attacking as a full round action, you may make a move equivalent action as a free action. You can not use this action to take a move action. I was trying to stick with the concept you wanted but with only a little time this morning to come up with an idea I don't think it accomplished what you wanted as well. I think this one will be the hardest one to get that "just right" feel. I remember another fighter rebuild where the poster wanted to add the ability to take a five foot step to follow an opponent who tries to take a 5 foot away from the fighter. But he couldn't fit it in. It is an ability I've wanted to use, but haven't for two reasons. One, I couldn't fit it in either. And two, since I've forgotten who it was, I can't give him proper credit for the idea. Your idea could work, but I'd be hesitant to add it directly to Master of Opportunity (or Martial Opportunity as it's currently called). It could end up putting too many aspects in one ability, making it over complicated. As an additional ability would work, but where would I fit it? I almost think this might make for a decent feat instead of a class ability now that I've had time to think it over. But Rule 2 is the one near and dear to my heart. Back in my early days of gaming, I played with a group that loved munchkin style house rules. One thing they hated to see was a disadvantage on any of their favorite classes. So they would simply remove them. But if you take away the disadvantage of one class, you end up removing the Advantage of another class. Which would tend to be the classes I liked. I think this is one of the reasons why there are so many "Class X sucks" threads. Most people tend to ignore the disadvantages of the classes they like and focus on the disadvantages of the classes that they don't like as much. It's human nature. I tried to be a fiction writer at one time and failed miserably. One thing I did learn though was that the hero needs flaws. Without those flaws, he loses everything that makes him what he is. I try to keep this in mind with my characters as well. If there is no flaw, then there is no reason to play the character. This could be one of the reasons why I don't enjoy druids, clerics, planar shepherds, etc. I like having to work at avoiding trouble.
nonsi 07-24-07, 01:18 AM	Hi BoringInfoGuy, I concluded my initial Build had 3 distinct problems: 1. It stretched the game mechanics to a certain degree. 2. It would further promote dipping. 3. It was a bit overpowered compared to other non spellcasters So here is the finalized rebalanced Fighter (whatever's not mentioned stays CORE): Skills & skill points: [4 + INT-mod] skill points per level; All Fighters have Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Spot and Swim as class skills. Class abilities: 1st level: Bonus Feat, Flexible Adaptability 2nd level: Bonus Feat, Combat orientation 3rd level: Combat Edge +1, Courage +1 4th level: Bonus Feat 5th level: Martial Opportunity +1 6th level: Bonus Feat, Uncanny Dodge 7th level: Combat Edge +2 8th level: Bonus Feat, Courage +2 9th level: Martial Opportunity +2 10th level: Bonus Feat 11th level: Combat Edge +3 12th level: Bonus Feat, Improved Uncanny Dodge 13th level: Martial Opportunity +3, Courage +3 14th level: Bonus Feat 15th level: Combat Edge +4 16th level: Bonus Feat, Agile Attack 17th level: Martial Opportunity +4 18th level: Bonus Feat, Courage +4 19th level: Combat Edge +5 20th level: Bonus Feat Description of the abilities: Flexible Adaptability: This Fighter class feature has 2 aspects: 1. At 1st level only, the Fighter can give up proficiency with medium & heavy armor and with tower shield in order to increase either Ref or Will saves to good. 2. The Fighter has a free selection of any 7 skills to add to his class skills. This selection is not bound to 1st level, but the first extra 7 skills in which the Fighter takes any ranks are automatically added and cannot be swapped later on. (Motivation: Flexible Adaptability is the tool of creating basically any Fighter archetype without changing the game rules, increasing dipping incentives or inventing almost identical classes just for the accurate Fighter theme desired) Combat Orientation: For the sole purpose of qualifying for any combat feat that has an ability minimum requirement indicated, add 1/2 the Fighter's level (round down) to the required ability. Any built-in bonus feat the fighter doesn't qualify for in advance is postponed until his level progression makes him eligible to gaining it. (Motivation: Whatever a Fighter lacks in natural born affinity to a combat move, he compensates for with hard and dedicated training) Combat Edge: The fighter trains in many attack styles, giving him an advantage in battle. The fighter adds the listed bonus to roll made during any Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder and Trip Special attacks. This bonus is added both when the fighter is making the attack, and when he is the target of the attack. (Motivation: Making the Fighter both a better specialist, and general combatant, but without increasing hit probability or damage output) Courage: Add the indicated bonus to all saves against fear. (Motivation: All fighters learn to adapt to battlefield horrors and are not easily spooked. This is not so much about battlefield control, but rather to represent the spirit of a warrior) Martial Opportunity: The endless training that fighters undergo makes them very focused in battle. This focus grants them the ability to remain on guard when distracted, and take greater advantage of the lapse in defense of others. When a fighter provokes an attack of opportunity, the bonus listed is added to his AC. Likewise, when an opponent grants an attack of opportunity to the fighter, he adds the bonus listed to his attack roll. (Motivation: If a fighter makes a special attack without having an Improved {attack} feat, his target gets an Attack of Opportunity. If the Attack of Opportunity hits, the special attack fails. So this ability makes it harder, but not impossible, to disrupt the fighter's attack. The idea is that he can choose to take the direct path to where he wants to go, even if it's through threatened spaces. Adding it to the Fighter's attack bonus when making an Attack of Opportunity makes the fighter a more credible threat. It also means that two fighters of equal level have the two bonuses cancelled out. Note that none of the base classes (or supplement classes that I've seen) have anything that improves their ability to make Attacks of Opportunity. So it seemed a great way to increase the Fighters "best overall combat ability" flavor, without stealing the thunder of any other class) Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge: Same as core abilities of the same names. (Motivation: This reflects the Fighter's superior combat readiness and battlefield awareness. Since the Fighter's bent more on offensiveness than defense, and given he puts a lot of effort to adopt his flexible combat style, he needs more experience than the Rogue in order to acquire the proper training for Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge) Agile Attack: The Fighter can spread his attacks in between move actions, either before or after moving (a total of up to 3 attacks in a combat turn), but this doesn't grant him use of his off hand attack (if and when relevant) and also means no more than a single attack per move action and you can't angle more than 45 degrees in between strikes. Move based attack and the improved standard attack obviously don't work together. (Motivation: Smart enemies normally won't stand still and let a fighter get his full attack. Nor will they let a range fighter stand there without something running to threaten him. So basically, his allows the high leveled warrior to apply a decent "punch" against opponents more than a move away and better battlefield control against multiple opponents (tripping, sundering, disarming, overrunning...)) Note: The Improved Standard Attack aspect of Agile Attack was dropped, since it overshadows Bounding Assault and cannot serve as prerequisite for Rapid Blitz. I'm still working on a capstone ability. My general direction, unless you have a better idea, is some sort of improvement to "Agile Attack".
JLaurHughes 07-24-07, 01:21 AM	This is not exactly a critique, more a comment on all the fighter fixes that have been made. This is one of the better fighter fixes that I have seen, however I'm not fond of the ability score increases that you're proposing. It has the potential to be abused with magic items increasing two scores while the Bonus Ability Increase boosts the last one. Other fixes have suggested skills as part of the fix, changing the bonuses to the attack/damage, more fighter only feats. Nothing balances right. Fighters are probably the worst class to attempt a fix on. Two reasons I see for them being the worst to attempt a fix: First a fighter is as versatile as the player makes him. Limiting the ability scores limits the fighters' ability to qualify for some of the feats which then makes a fighter pliable for multiclassing. This is probably the versatility that the original designers, and the current updates meant. I've seen people built 20 level fighters and do better than a wizard, armor with DR and SR applied and a special ability of flight for example, expensive, but affordable at higher levels. Second the lower amount of skills the base class has people see as a weakness, but adding skills to the current list becomes difficult, which skills do you add, which skils are totally useless? No skill is balanced against another. Bluff has so many uses that its only rival is diplomacy, both of which are opposed by sense motive. Intimidate is a stand alone skill that is opposed by a modified level check. Some want to get rid of the craft skill which they seem to see as useless. I have a third point that I want to make about the fighter, the two poor saves and one good. Fighters aren't always about being tanks. Some actually use their dex more. So one fix I might suggest is give the fighter an option at first level to choose one of the three saves as his good save instead of having only the fort save as a good save. This might balance a little, but I can see a problem already with doing this, it still only gives one good save.
dknight100 07-24-07, 06:27 AM	I see the ability increases as alright, as they allow the player to focus on other stats. Other peoples points against it are also good though - while the intention is to allow a fighter to have good int without being too far behind on their other stats, i wonder how many people (besides me, as i like high int characters, even fighters) would actually take the int upgrade. I also think that maybe increasing their int, even though it reduces the points they can have in other stats to be a call the player has to make, with the benefit being that you have the int you gave yourself, not that there isnt a downside. Instead of ability increases, maybe something else? Helpfully, i'm not sure what a good idea would be. For the Combat Edge, to go with the customisation side of things, perhaps there should be a few different option here. I like playing fighters that make use of those abilities, so combat edge as it is appeals to me, but not everyone wants to make that sort of fighter. Again, helpfully, i'm not sure what other abilities could be increased in the same manner for different fighter styles. Overall though, i really like it - i might even use this as the basis of the fighter class in my upcoming campaign.
Bob Loblaw 07-24-07, 09:06 AM	For the Combat Edge, to go with the customisation side of things, perhaps there should be a few different option here. I like playing fighters that make use of those abilities, so combat edge as it is appeals to me, but not everyone wants to make that sort of fighter. Again, helpfully, i'm not sure what other abilities could be increased in the same manner for different fighter styles. What is nice about the combat edge ability is that it applies to all the opposed rolls whether or not the fighter initiated the action. Fighters tend to get themselves into situations where they need to worry about being grappled or tripped more than most characters. This small boost is really nice, even if it is being used defensively.
dknight100 07-24-07, 09:03 PM	Ahh, good point bob loblaw (i just like writing the whole name). The defensive side of that is quite good.
BoringInfoGuy 07-24-07, 09:40 PM	I see the ability increases as alright, as they allow the player to focus on other stats. Other peoples points against it are also good though - while the intention is to allow a fighter to have good int without being too far behind on their other stats, i wonder how many people (besides me, as i like high int characters, even fighters) would actually take the int upgrade. I also think that maybe increasing their int, even though it reduces the points they can have in other stats to be a call the player has to make, with the benefit being that you have the int you gave yourself, not that there isnt a downside. Instead of ability increases, maybe something else? Helpfully, i'm not sure what a good idea would be. Bonus Ability Increase is, sadly, on the way out. Version 1 was to help make different fighter concepts. Start off wiser, smarter, more charismatic. Or hey, go for the really high STR fighter, like in 2nd edition. Did it really matter if a player wanted to max out Strength? Turns out the answer was yes. It was too abusable. Version 2 didn't really do what it was meant for anymore. It just went to the physical stat that the player cared about least. As for what to replace it with? At the moment, I'm going to see how the build looks with that ability removed. For the Combat Edge, to go with the customisation side of things, perhaps there should be a few different option here. I like playing fighters that make use of those abilities, so combat edge as it is appeals to me, but not everyone wants to make that sort of fighter. Again, helpfully, i'm not sure what other abilities could be increased in the same manner for different fighter styles. Bob Loblaw beat me to it. Overall though, i really like it - i might even use this as the basis of the fighter class in my upcoming campaign. That. . . is a very high compliment. Both you and Nonsi, I want to let you know it means a lot to me that you think my ideas are good enough to use in your games.
BoringInfoGuy 07-24-07, 10:18 PM	Hi BoringInfoGuy, I concluded my initial Build had 3 distinct problems: 1. It stretched the game mechanics to a certain degree. 2. It would further promote dipping. 3. It was a bit overpowered compared to other non spellcasters I left a comment on your Topic if you haven't noticed yet. Your current build looks pretty good. It is a more widespread change than what I'm trying for. Which is ok, your build is probably still meant to unite all the fully combat-oriented classes into one. I'm looking at the Flexible Adaptability ability. The first part, in effect, let's you trade three of the fighters inherent feats (Medium Armor Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency, and Tower Shield Proficiency) so that the fighter can have 2 good saves, one of which must be Fortitude. Is having two good saves worth that much? The next part makes the first 7 cc skills that the fighter takes become class skills. The concept I like, but 7 seems too many. Even a human fighter isn't too likely to have more than 3 extra skill points per level, so most players get to completely ignore the fighter's standard skill list, and just pick ANY skill list they want. With the base 4 skill points you've given, I'd say make it the first 2. A fighter with no INT bonus who did not want to cross class his skills would need to spend two of his skills on traditional fighter skills, and have two free to use as he likes. Or you could make it so that the fighter gets to add one skill to his class list for every +1 bonus to intelligence he has.
BoringInfoGuy 07-24-07, 10:38 PM	Version 3 is now up. Looks kind of empty now. Still, no dead levels.
AtmaWeapon 07-24-07, 10:42 PM	Overall, I like what I see. You attempted to stay true to the fighter as a class, while still giving it an edge over what it is now. But, I must be honest when I say that nothing on this list would still make me consider taking fighter higher then I normally would. Here's why: Combat Edge: In general, there simply aren't that many times where a +1-5 bonus is going to sway the odds that much. It's either going to tend towards an insignificant boost, or just a chance to spout a bigger number when you would have already won. This just boils down to the fact that, for most instances, you either outclass your opponent to a degree it doesn't matter, or you're outclassed into the dirt. +5 or not, you still are unlikely to be winning any grapple checks with anything bigger then large. Improved Standard Attack: Borderline broken, but probably OK. Probably OK, but not worth what you'd sacrifice from going into any of a dozen PRCs and getting 6-8 levels earlier. Martial Opportunity: How often do you miss with your primary attack? For most high-level melee combatants, the answer to this question is 5% of the time - When I roll a 1. And when the dragon chomps at you, and the DM says "Does a 42 hit? Oh sorry, actually that's a 6, not a 9. How about 39?", the vast majority of fighters aren't going to be saved by 4 more points of AC. Attack bonus simply increases faster then AC, it's an accepted flaw of the D&D combat system. People don't generally miss with primary attacks past about level 7-9.
Bob Loblaw 07-25-07, 12:41 AM	Fighter v3: Combat Edge: The fighter adds the listed bonus to the opposed rolls made during the Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder and Trip Special attacks. This bonus is added both when the fighter is making the attack, and when he is the target of the attack. The fighter trains in many attack styles, giving him an advantage in battle. Behind the Curtain Plan and simple, this is meant to make the special attack feats viable at higher levels. Also, it makes it so that a fighter has a better chance to succeed on a Special attack that he has not put any feats into. The goal is to make the fighter both a better specialist, and general combatant. It is a bonus to opposed rolls instead of being a Strength bonus so that it includes Feint checks. In my opinion, a fighter may not be a skilled at fooling people he talks with (Bluff a cc skill), that is different than making someone think that he will strike here instead of there. I really think this ability is nice. I know I mentioned it before, but it scales small enough to not remove the need to take other feats or abilities but just enough to make taking it worthwhile. The bonus is small, even comparatively at 20th level, but when combined with everything else it adds up well. Improved Standard Attack: At 20th level, when the fighter attacks as a Standard action, he may make two attacks, one at his highest BAB, and the second at his next highest BAB (+20/+15). Benefits made while charging only apply to the 1st attack. Only the first attack would get the +2 bonus to hit. A mounted fighter charging with a lance would only apply the double damage to the first attack. A fighter wielding two weapons must still use the Full Attack to attack with his off hand weapon. Behind the Curtain Smart enemies normally won't stand still and let a fighter get his full attack. Nor will they let a range fighter stand there without something running to threaten him. I may put this lower than 20th level, but to do so, I'd want a new capstone ability for the fighter. Giving the fighter the ability to make all his attacks as a standard action would completely overshadow the Monk's Flurry of Blows ability. So it needs to be something else entirely. I've been thinking about this one. What if the fighter could instead take any number of extra attacks, but with cumulative penalties? Maybe he can take one additional attack for every -5 penalty he wants to take on all his attacks for the round. For example, if he wanted to take one additional attack as part of his standard action, both attacks would be at -5. If he wanted to take 2 additional attacks, each attack would be at -10 but he would have 3 attacks along with his move action. This would have diminishing returns and so I doubt any fighter would take more than one or two extra attacks. If you went this route, maybe you could allow the fighter a single full-round action be taken as a standard action each encounter for the capstone ability. Martial Opportunity: The endless training that fighters undergo make them very focused in battle. This focus grants them the ability to remain on guard when distracted, and take greater advantage of the lapse in defense of others. When a fighter provokes an attack of opportunity, the bonus listed is added to his AC. Likewise, when an opponent grants an attack of opportunity to the fighter, he adds the bonus listed to his attack roll. This bonus may seem small at first, but when coupled with things like Tumble or Combat Expertise, the extra 4 points can make a huge difference. For offense, it can offset things like Power Attack, making it an even better choice especially for fighters that focus on attacks of opportunity. I would really like to try this fighter out in an upcoming campaign but we are going to have a new DM and he wants to have as few options right now. He needs to focus on his DMing skills instead of someone else's class design. I may run this through the two Gauntlets. This does make the fighter more powerful, but not as complicated or overpowered as I've seen in the past. I also like the simplicity a lot. I think this is something that is often forgotten by designers.
dknight100 07-25-07, 05:32 PM	I was thinking earlier (as i occasionally do), that the feat prereq reduction class skill that someone proposed could be quite a good replacement for the ability score increases. Of course, it couldnt be put in scaling at the same intervals, as if it were a scaling thing, then it wouldn't be very useful early on, and then later on, when it is useful, you've already used a lot of your feats. i was thinking something along the lines of a level 1 class ability: Drill Training: The fighter's ability scores are treated as being 2 points higher for the purpose of meeting ability score prerequisites of "Fighter" feats. This would allow the fighter to take tactical abilities without also needing to be very intelligent (because lets face it, 13 int, compared to normal people, is very highly intelligent), or to branch into two weapon fighting without also making it detrimental to also be heavily armoured. ::EDIT:: At the same time, it isn't subject to the same abusability that the ability score increases 1st version were, as it doesn't rely on the fighter's player actually wanting to make a higher int (or wis or cha) fighter than the standard archetype. Similarly, it doesn't provide them with increases to an ability they dont care about - a full plate sword an board fighter would invest highly into Str and Con, but little into Dex, and so the 2nd Version of ability score increases would buff their Dex each time, resulting in them having 2 to 4 points of dex they gain nothing from.
BoringInfoGuy 07-25-07, 05:40 PM	Overall, I like what I see. You attempted to stay true to the fighter as a class, while still giving it an edge over what it is now. But, I must be honest when I say that nothing on this list would still make me consider taking fighter higher then I normally would. Here's why: Combat Edge: In general, there simply aren't that many times where a +1-5 bonus is going to sway the odds that much. It's either going to tend towards an insignificant boost, or just a chance to spout a bigger number when you would have already won. This just boils down to the fact that, for most instances, you either outclass your opponent to a degree it doesn't matter, or you're outclassed into the dirt. +5 or not, you still are unlikely to be winning any grapple checks with anything bigger then large. I'm glad you like my design philosophy. Quick note: Check post #20 for a breakdown of the effects of Combat Edge on grapple checks for a 20th level fighter compared to the Grapple ratings of creatures from the MM with a CR from 18 to 22. You may be surprised.
Bob Loblaw 07-25-07, 05:42 PM	I was thinking earlier (as i occasionally do), that the feat prereq reduction class skill that someone proposed could be quite a good replacement for the ability score increases. Of course, it couldnt be put in scaling at the same intervals, as if it were a scaling thing, then it wouldn't be very useful early on, and then later on, when it is useful, you've already used a lot of your feats. i was thinking something along the lines of a level 1 class ability: Drill Training: The fighter's ability scores are treated as being 2 points higher for the purpose of meeting ability score prerequisites of "Fighter" feats. This would allow the fighter to take tactical abilities without also needing to be very intelligent (because lets face it, 13 int, compared to normal people, is very highly intelligent), or to branch into two weapon fighting without also making it detrimental to also be heavily armoured. ::EDIT:: At the same time, it isn't subject to the same abusability that the ability score increases 1st version were, as it doesn't rely on the fighter's player actually wanting to make a higher int (or wis or cha) fighter than the standard archetype. Similarly, it doesn't provide them with increases to an ability they dont care about - a full plate sword an board fighter would invest highly into Str and Con, but little into Dex, and so the 2nd Version of ability score increases would buff their Dex each time, resulting in them having 2 to 4 points of dex they gain nothing from. I like the idea as well but I wouldn't put it as a level one ability. I think it should come through combat experience. Personally, I liked the idea of it scaling. The fighter could continue taking some feats, like the two-weapon tree, without having to constantly be improving his Dexterity. Skill alone would be enough.
dknight100 07-25-07, 06:13 PM	I did think that it would be tidiest to place it (if it were to scale it) where the standard ability score increases are (ie 4th, 8th, 12th 16th, then none at 20, as they could have the capstone fighter ability instead) However, my only concern is with the large number of feats available to the fighter, and my preference (and i'm sure many peoples preference) to have my character fighting roughly how i intend them to as soon as i can, then a scaling version could come as too little too late. Picture if the first increase came at 4th level, by this point, the new fighter has 4 fighter feats, and 2 normal feats, or 4 fighter feats, and 3 normal feats for a human. And a lot of abilities have moderate entry costs. You'd have to make the call between having fairly high abilities for your level despite the point of that class feature is to allow more option to the fighter, or taking lots of feats that you didnt really care as much about. Not to mention if it was only say, -1 to prereqs, well, its not very impressive. -2 is when it would first become really noticable, and that would come at 8th level, 8 or 9 feats down the line already. I also think that you dont want the ability score reduction to go above -4, as i feel that that is a really big helping hand, and beyond that would make ability prereqs nearly meaningless. If it were to scale, i'm thinking 1st and 10th, -2 -4. This way it does improve as they do, but they can make immediate use of it.
BoringInfoGuy 07-26-07, 01:59 PM	At the moment, I'm considering leaving Improved Standard Attack as the Capstone for level 20, but putting a weaker version at level 16. How does it sound to be able to make 2 attacks as a standard action, but with a -5 penalty to both. In effect, you would have a choice to make either a single attack at your highest BAB, OR make two attacks, at your second and third BAB. This is a variation of the idea Bob Loblaw had earlier. Or maybe you can make your first attack at your full BAB, but the second attack uses your 3rd attack BAB (-10). Comments?
dknight100 07-26-07, 04:55 PM	Just brainstorming, i haven't had a big long think over these ideas (yet). Perhaps the weaker version could be as per the current version (i.e. 2 attacks for a standard action, second at -5) but only on a charge, or some such limiter. The capstone ability could be as boblaw suggested - extra attacks with a cumulative -5 penalty, except i would cap it at full attack. ::EDIT:: I did say full attack, but i just thought: is that too similar to the monk... then again, is that necessarily bad? The reason being is without a cap, he could effectively make infinite attacks with his highest level of power attack. Sure, he needs a natural 20 to hit, but he's also making infinite attacks. Any reasonable DM would say no and cap it, but we may as well nip that in the but during design.
Bob Loblaw 07-26-07, 10:17 PM	At the moment, I'm considering leaving Improved Standard Attack as the Capstone for level 20, but putting a weaker version at level 16. How does it sound to be able to make 2 attacks as a standard action, but with a -5 penalty to both. In effect, you would have a choice to make either a single attack at your highest BAB, OR make two attacks, at your second and third BAB. This is a variation of the idea Bob Loblaw had earlier. Or maybe you can make your first attack at your full BAB, but the second attack uses your 3rd attack BAB (-10). Comments? Any of these could work. The reason I chose the cumulative -5 to all attacks was for simplicity. I like the idea of taking a -5 penalty to two attacks. I would rather see it written as -5 rather than using your second and third attack bonus because that messes with your actual Base Attack which can have a huge impact on some things (power attack and combat reflexes for examples). Just brainstorming, i haven't had a big long think over these ideas (yet). Perhaps the weaker version could be as per the current version (i.e. 2 attacks for a standard action, second at -5) but only on a charge, or some such limiter. The capstone ability could be as boblaw suggested - extra attacks with a cumulative -5 penalty, except i would cap it at full attack. ::EDIT:: I did say full attack, but i just thought: is that too similar to the monk... then again, is that necessarily bad? The reason being is without a cap, he could effectively make infinite attacks with his highest level of power attack. Sure, he needs a natural 20 to hit, but he's also making infinite attacks. Any reasonable DM would say no and cap it, but we may as well nip that in the but during design. I was trying originally to figure out a cap to the number of attacks but I couldn't figure out why I was thinking about it. This would be the little thing nagging at me all day. I like the idea of capping it at 4 attacks. This would not really step on the monk much since they can have more attacks without the penalties. The fighter that takes 4 attacks will be at -15 to hit with each attack but was able to move. The monk will have more attacks, with no penalty, and may even be able to take a 10 foot step if he used the right magic item.
BoringInfoGuy 07-27-07, 07:30 PM	Improved Standard Attack: I think I may just go for the ability to take a second attack at level 16 with the second attack at a -10 penalty. By that level, a fighter can take four attacks as a full round option, so it's a nice place for it. The hit chance on the second attack is not great, but it is not the worst either. The reason I did not go with the -5, -10 penalty version is that I think a high level ability should be a pure advantage. Instead of having to decide (and declare before attacking) whether he was taking a normal attack without penalty or two attacks at a lower chance, he just gets to take a second attack. The ability to choose how many attacks to take, with a greater penalty per attack works, but it seems to close to the Monk's Flurry of Blows to me. But to be honest, that has always been a concern with this ability. And the name. I need a better name that fits what characters in the world would call it. On the ability to qualify for feats with attribute score requirements easier: I'm starting to think this is not a good ability to give in general. It's good for the fighter, sure. But look at the Core feats which require a minimum attribute score. Most of them only require {attribute} 13. This is not too hard to meet. If you need a score above 13, then it's a Dex requirement. 1st the is the 15 Dex needed to take the Snatch Arrows feat. It also requires Improved Unarmed Strike and Deflect Arrows. Unarmed Strike is a 1st level Monk ability, and Deflect Arrows is one of the two choices for the Monk to take as a bonus feat at 2nd level. A Monk can't get it for free, but it is easy to qualify for. In the Point Blank Shot feat chain we find the 17 Dex needed for Manyshot feat and the 19 Dex needed for Improved Precise Shot. Both are bonus feats granted to rangers who choose the Ranged Combat style. In the Two Weapon Fighting feat chain we find 15 Dex needed for to take Two Weapon Fighting, 17 Dex for Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and 19 Dex for Greater Two Weapon Fighting. These are the bonus feats granted to Rangers who take the Two Weapon Fighting combat style. The point is that if a feat has a high ability score requirement, then it is already tied thematically to another class. Giving the fighter easy access to them is diminishing the other classes ability to get those feats without needing the perquisites. If the fighter wants to take TWF or whatever, then he should need to pay the full cost. Well, what to add then? With BAI gone bye bye, there is room to add a little bit more. One spot is taken by giving a weaker version of Improved Standard Attack. That leaves three less than my first version. Now, it is not required to add anything else. I could leave things as is, and start testing out how it works in actual play. -BUT- warning, early ideas There is that ability to take a free 5 ft step each round to keep a foe in threat range. So if an opponent takes a 5 ft step, say to fire his bow at the fighter without taking an attack of opportunity, the fighter would be able to keep him in attack of opportunity range. I was also thinking about adding an ability to increase the DC of Concentration checks by spell casters trying to cast defensively when threatened by a fighter. My first thought was to add in another straight bonus like Combat Edge and Martial Opportunity. Then the thought came to possibly extend it to the DC of Tumble checks as well. Perhaps a penalty to all DC checks by enemies. Something that applies to all foes that are within threat range. It just becomes harder to act around a fighter, because he is so intimidating. Then I realized that Intimidation is a class skill for the fighter. Looking it up, it already as the option Demoralize your opponent. On a successful check (not an opposed roll, so Combat Edge does not apply) you can shaken a target for 1 round. A shaken opponent has -2 to attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. (Unless someone knows different, I would say that ability checks includes skill checks). As it stands a spellcaster only needs a 23 skill score in concentration to never lose a 9th level spell cast defensively. Even with a no Con bonus, a spell caster will hit that at level 20 of he takes Concentration each round. Taking Combat casting lowers this to level 16. So a wizard can pass the DC to not lose a 9th level spell on the defensive one level before he can cast his first 9th level spell. Lower level spells have a lower DC. Any bonus to Con makes it so that a spell caster never loses a Concentration check at an even lower level. A -2 to a Concentration check doesn't do much at higher levels. So how about making it so that the fighter can keep raising the ability check penalty as he goes up in level? The balance would be tricky. It would need to be good enough that a wizard would have a chance to start losing spells, but no so bad that the wizard loses all or even most spells. Before I go nuts trying to work out the math, how does the general idea sound? These two abilities would certainly help a fighter put the pressure on a spell caster he can get next to, while not removing his weakness to magic due to his low reflex and will saves.
Bob Loblaw 07-28-07, 12:53 AM	Improved Standard Attack: I think I may just go for the ability to take a second attack at level 16 with the second attack at a -10 penalty. By that level, a fighter can take four attacks as a full round option, so it's a nice place for it. The hit chance on the second attack is not great, but it is not the worst either. The reason I did not go with the -5, -10 penalty version is that I think a high level ability should be a pure advantage. Instead of having to decide (and declare before attacking) whether he was taking a normal attack without penalty or two attacks at a lower chance, he just gets to take a second attack. The ability to choose how many attacks to take, with a greater penalty per attack works, but it seems to close to the Monk's Flurry of Blows to me. But to be honest, that has always been a concern with this ability. And the name. I need a better name that fits what characters in the world would call it. I can see this. I don't totally agree, but I can see that you don't want to take the thunder away from another class. I can't help with the name. I suck at naming things. I'm the guy who called the flying bug a fly. It was my idea and it sucked. On the ability to qualify for feats with attribute score requirements easier: I'm starting to think this is not a good ability to give in general. It's good for the fighter, sure. But look at the Core feats which require a minimum attribute score. Most of them only require {attribute} 13. This is not too hard to meet. I forgot that you were focused on Core. With this in mind, I agree. I may keep it as something to add to my fighter remake. There is that ability to take a free 5 ft step each round to keep a foe in threat range. So if an opponent takes a 5 ft step, say to fire his bow at the fighter without taking an attack of opportunity, the fighter would be able to keep him in attack of opportunity range. Can you take a 5-foot step on someone else's turn already? If not, this may be an interesting thing to explore. I was also thinking about adding an ability to increase the DC of Concentration checks by spell casters trying to cast defensively when threatened by a fighter. My first thought was to add in another straight bonus like Combat Edge and Martial Opportunity. Then the thought came to possibly extend it to the DC of Tumble checks as well. Perhaps a penalty to all DC checks by enemies. Something that applies to all foes that are within threat range. It just becomes harder to act around a fighter, because he is so intimidating. You could do something simple like give the opponent a penalty equal to 1/2 the fighter's Base Attack Bonus. This would allow the ability to extend through multiclassing. Maybe make it a bonus equal to 1/3 or 1/4 if 1/2 is too much. Maybe you could take the ability from the knight and any area the fighter threatens is considered difficult terrain and therefore Tumble checks are penalized and Charging is impossible. Then I realized that Intimidation is a class skill for the fighter. Looking it up, it already as the option Demoralize your opponent. On a successful check (not an opposed roll, so Combat Edge does not apply) you can shaken a target for 1 round. A shaken opponent has -2 to attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. (Unless someone knows different, I would say that ability checks includes skill checks). As it stands a spellcaster only needs a 23 skill score in concentration to never lose a 9th level spell cast defensively. Even with a no Con bonus, a spell caster will hit that at level 20 of he takes Concentration each round. Taking Combat casting lowers this to level 16. So a wizard can pass the DC to not lose a 9th level spell on the defensive one level before he can cast his first 9th level spell. Lower level spells have a lower DC. Any bonus to Con makes it so that a spell caster never loses a Concentration check at an even lower level. A -2 to a Concentration check doesn't do much at higher levels. So how about making it so that the fighter can keep raising the ability check penalty as he goes up in level? The balance would be tricky. It would need to be good enough that a wizard would have a chance to start losing spells, but no so bad that the wizard loses all or even most spells. Before I go nuts trying to work out the math, how does the general idea sound? What about having Intimidation replace the standard DC for casting defensively? So the fighter has now forced the wizard to make an opposed roll instead of a set DC. You could also do this for Tumble. An intimidating fighter should be intimidating. It would be really interesting if the fighter started off with demoralizing his opponent and then that opponent tried to cast defensively. He would now have a -2 penalty to the opposed check. It would take the fighter an extra round, but it could be interesting. These two abilities would certainly help a fighter put the pressure on a spell caster he can get next to, while not removing his weakness to magic due to his low reflex and will saves. I think there are some interesting options. I just got off of a very long work day so I may have to think this one through more over the weekend. I'm all about keeping it simple so don't expect anything complex from me.
dknight100 07-28-07, 01:53 AM	Just thinking about the defensive casting or tumbling bit - the fighter bonus should just make it something along the lines of: higher DC (maybe standard defensive casting DC + fighter level), where if the wizard passes his normal defensive casting check, but fails the increased DC then his defensive casting works, but the fighter still gets to attack of op him. I think outright raising the DC in the vincity of a fighter is a little on the bad side, as i don't think they should make everyone else better at getting attacks of op on a flipping ninja, or a combat experienced mage.
Bob Loblaw 07-28-07, 04:00 AM	Just thinking about the defensive casting or tumbling bit - the fighter bonus should just make it something along the lines of: higher DC (maybe standard defensive casting DC + fighter level), where if the wizard passes his normal defensive casting check, but fails the increased DC then his defensive casting works, but the fighter still gets to attack of op him. I think outright raising the DC in the vincity of a fighter is a little on the bad side, as i don't think they should make everyone else better at getting attacks of op on a flipping ninja, or a combat experienced mage. I meant just against the fighter. Like I said, I had a long work day (12+ hours). I'm a bit tired and conveying my message can be a challenge.
dknight100 07-28-07, 04:52 AM	its all good, just my 2 copper on it
BoringInfoGuy 07-31-07, 04:11 PM	You shortchange yourself dknight100. Sorry that I haven't commented anything recently. RL issues have been a problem.
BoringInfoGuy 08-01-07, 11:16 AM	I'm thinking that Tumble itself needs to be adjusted, to account for the higher difficulty in moving past more experienced opponents. Something where the DC is = to 10 + the melee attack modifier of the opponent the tumbler is moving past. If the tumbler is moving past multiple foes, he uses one check, applied separately against each foe's melee attack modifier. More of a skill fix. Now, if I make it so that the DC check for a casting defensively against a fighter becomes an opposed roll, wouldn't Combat Edge come into play? That would probably tip the advantage to the fighter too much.
Nonei 08-01-07, 02:10 PM	Hi Boring, In terms of tumble, you can always have the opposed check at the fighter's BAB without allowing modifiers.... I finally was able to read through the whole thread today, so I thought I would add a few cents. I like the ideas from earlier about having two versions of the Improved Standard Attack - it never did make sense to me that a high-level fighter could make 4 attacks OR draw a weapon and make 1 attack. (TBH, it would make more sense to me for all the classes to get half their attacks, rounded down (minimum 1 attack) as a standard action but I guess there's feats for that...) I am new enough to the game (at least 3.5, and didn't play enough 2nd ed in high school to count) to know that I have no clue about what would be game-breaking... What about having the Improved Standard attack, as is (or maybe -5, -10?, or perhaps the minus to damage as well as attack?), at level 16 (when the fighter gets the fourth attack) - and then as the capstone ability the fighter may choose to sacrifice one attack at his highest BAB to make a non-move move action? In terms of adding bonuses to stats for the purpose of qualifying for feats... I agree with everything said here about why it's a bad idea and why it's a good idea lol. I do think Nonsi's is a little too generous (half fighter level), and I see your point in not outshining other classes as well. Perhaps half strength bonus, rounded down (not counting temporary modifiers or polymorph or some other exploitable something) could be applied to dex or vice versa for the purpose of qualifying for a fighter feat? That would make a scaling (assuming the character puts points in strength or dex) but not overly powerful (maybe?) bonus. That would allow for 2 points if the strength is 18-20 at level 1 (assuming I'm remembering my plusses right). Nonei
Nonei 08-01-07, 02:15 PM	...and then as the capstone ability the fighter may choose to sacrifice one attack at his highest BAB to make a non-move move action? I should add, ..to make a non-move move action as a free action. Or perhaps it would be better (less exploitable?) to make the rest of his attacks as the standard action for the round (so no extra attacks from haste or speed, for example). Not sure how to balance for TWF (assuming it would be balanced as I wrote it lol) - perhaps must give up an attack from both primary and off-hand in that case.
nonsi 08-01-07, 04:04 PM	In terms of adding bonuses to stats for the purpose of qualifying for feats... I agree with everything said here about why it's a bad idea and why it's a good idea lol. I do think Nonsi's is a little too generous (half fighter level) I'm not sure that's being too generous. A figher with INT=8 (not impossible) would have to wait to level 10 (or at least 8, if he advanced his INT twice) to qualify for Combat Expertise (a prerequisite to many usful Fighter feats), which some other arbitrary level fighter with 13+ INT can get at 1st level. 7 - 9 levels of delay is no picnic.
Nonei 08-01-07, 07:29 PM	I'm not sure that's being too generous. A figher with INT=8 (not impossible) would have to wait to level 10 (or at least 8, if he advanced his INT twice) to qualify for Combat Expertise (a prerequisite to many usful Fighter feats), which some other arbitrary level fighter with 13+ INT can get at 1st level. 7 - 9 levels of delay is no picnic. True. And to be honest, now that I think about it mine is more generous, at the early levels anyway - and it should be the opposite. As to your example - if a fighter is interested in going the combat expertise route, they should put a higher score in int and sacrifice a different ability score. I agree that 7-9 levels of delay is no picnic, but also would not be the norm. Perhaps +1 at 2nd level and every 6 levels after to a stat for the purpose of qualifying for feats? I would even lean toward making the fighter pick one ability score (no changing) that it would apply to... That would give +1 at 2nd, +2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, +4 at 20th - still quite a boost, and follows the flavor of a fighter overcoming a drawback (slightly low ability score but not horribly low ability score) with training. I have limited time on the computer each week, so I may not reply to your thread for a couple days Nonsi ;) I haven't forgotten it. For skills - I still think somewhere between Nonsi's very generous skill list and Boring's core is best - 4+int skill points and some sort of more flexible/expanded list of skills (a pirate, if wholly focused on fighting rather than skills, will be bad at a few things that are typical pirate :) ) Where exactly that line is best drawn is a question... Have a great one Nonei
BoringInfoGuy 08-01-07, 11:36 PM	Well, as Bob Loblaw said, I'm Core focused. I'm not going to make it easier for the fighter to imitate the flavor of other classes. Now, 13 is a pretty average score in rolling. In point buy, a 13 costs 5 points. Either way, it is not a difficult requirement for the combat expertise chain. If you want to be a tactical fighter, you really don't need a class ability to help you qualify. Otherwise, you character simply isn't smart enough to learn those fancy smancy techniques. Techniques? I mean tricks. Tricks to cheat victory that should've belonged to more honest fighters. Cheating, that's the word. In a fight, the strongest man wins. That's fair. Sorry, just thinking about the world view of a low int fighter. Honestly, right now I'm pretty much thinking that if you want to have the feats, you need to qualify for them normally.
Bob Loblaw 08-02-07, 12:46 AM	I'm thinking that Tumble itself needs to be adjusted, to account for the higher difficulty in moving past more experienced opponents. Something where the DC is = to 10 + the melee attack modifier of the opponent the tumbler is moving past. If the tumbler is moving past multiple foes, he uses one check, applied separately against each foe's melee attack modifier. More of a skill fix. This is something I believe was suggested in Sword and Fist. If not, it was something similar. I don't feel like grabbing my book right now, but I know there were a couple of options thrown around to deal with the static DC for Tumble. Now, if I make it so that the DC check for a casting defensively against a fighter becomes an opposed roll, wouldn't Combat Edge come into play? That would probably tip the advantage to the fighter too much. That would be up to you if Combat Edge comes into play. I don't have a problem with that since the best the fighter would have is a +25; that's assuming you treat it like Sense Motive with the full Base Attack Bonus. The wizard should be putting ranks into Concentration to deal with damage as well as casting defensively. This means that at level 20, he should have 23 ranks. He probably has Combat Casting or Skill Focus (Concentration), maybe both. This would put him at +26 to +30. Add in some Constitution and he'll be just fine. Even without all those things, he can just take a 5-foot step back and not even have to worry about it anyway. The wizard shouldn't be that close to the fighter. That wizard almost deserves what's coming to him.
BoringInfoGuy 08-02-07, 01:59 PM	This is something I believe was suggested in Sword and Fist. If not, it was something similar. I don't feel like grabbing my book right now, but I know there were a couple of options thrown around to deal with the static DC for Tumble. Good enough. That would be up to you if Combat Edge comes into play. I don't have a problem with that since the best the fighter would have is a +25; that's assuming you treat it like Sense Motive with the full Base Attack Bonus. The wizard should be putting ranks into Concentration to deal with damage as well as casting defensively. This means that at level 20, he should have 23 ranks. He probably has Combat Casting or Skill Focus (Concentration), maybe both. This would put him at +26 to +30. Add in some Constitution and he'll be just fine. Even without all those things, he can just take a 5-foot step back and not even have to worry about it anyway. The wizard shouldn't be that close to the fighter. That wizard almost deserves what's coming to him. Last things first, I am planning on having the ability to take a 5 foot step to follow opponents who take a 5 foot step. The 5 foot step ability should work together with the ability to increase the difficulty for opponents to cast defensively. Combat Edge I wouldn't want to add. The more that it applies to, the more that it continues to apply to. Opposed rolls for Casting Defensively? Sure. But then why not for Spot / Hide during combat? Hey, isn't the attack roll an opposed roll against the targets AC? Not what any of us would try to do, but some people will argue for hours to try to get a bonus. I'm not a munchkin, but the first gamers I played with were. I'm not too certain about the opposed rolls idea. Seems like it would confuse the spell caster players. Maybe I'm over thinking it though. But you did remind me of a comment that Mkill made back in page one. He said that an ability called Master of Opportunity should raise the DC of Tumble and Concentration DC's to avoid Attacks of Opportunity. What about making it an added benefit of Martial Opportunity that the Bonus gets applied to the DC of Defensive Casting checks. Something that kicks in later, after the player is used to Martial Opportunity. (Like Barbarians get a will bonus while raging as they level). I'm not certain that would provide a good enough bonus. But something along those lines. (Note that I remember suggestions that people make. Again, never assume that I've simply disregarded your comments.)