Born or Made? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Born or Made? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sasha Windsor
11-09-05, 12:08 PM I've got an RP-related question.

Classes like fighters, wizards and rogues are made. They weren't born with a special gift, aside from perhaps greater-than-normal strength or intelligence. When they are of age, they get some training so they can call themselves fighters or wizards or rogues.

Classes like sorcerers are born. From birth, they have something in them that is brought out as they age. Some small amount of training may be involved, but a sorcerer is born.

My question is: are paladins born or made?

A member of my group is arguing with me on this one. I believe they are born, but require some combat training as they age. He believes that they are made. Their need to do good, coupled with some training, gives them power over evil.

I'm just curious what you guys think.

BTW, I know that this has little to no effect on the mechanics of the game. This is just a question that came up during the course of our debate.
CaoSlayer
11-09-05, 12:15 PM I think they are 100% maded in the way that they are 75% fighter 25% cleric.

In old plain AD&D, paladins used to be members of an order that was the responsible of this training, paladins are fighters with divine trainning and related powers.
Silverthumb128
11-09-05, 12:39 PM It takes a very specific kind of person to be a Paladin, and it takes a high level of resolve that you just can't find in any city street. Not just anyone has what it takes to face the forces of evil with a solemn determination and an unshakable spirit. Paladins are born. :D
Nephlite
11-09-05, 12:56 PM I've got an RP-related question.

Classes like fighters, wizards and rogues are made. They weren't born with a special gift, aside from perhaps greater-than-normal strength or intelligence. When they are of age, they get some training so they can call themselves fighters or wizards or rogues.

Classes like sorcerers are born. From birth, they have something in them that is brought out as they age. Some small amount of training may be involved, but a sorcerer is born.

My question is: are paladins born or made?

A member of my group is arguing with me on this one. I believe they are born, but require some combat training as they age. He believes that they are made. Their need to do good, coupled with some training, gives them power over evil.

I'm just curious what you guys think.

BTW, I know that this has little to no effect on the mechanics of the game. This is just a question that came up during the course of our debate.

I say Botrn: the Flavor text says the call can come anytime: at the beggining of adventuring career or later.
Just like Sorceror you don't need to be levl 1 as one: you can come one at anytime because the power was always in you.

Many are called but few are chosen: they aren't chosen till they decide to take a level in it.
Sasha Windsor
11-09-05, 12:57 PM Alright, so far we are 1-and-1! :)

I may be adding some of my own beliefs beyond the game into this, but the divine grace ability seems like the paladin is blessed in a way that even their clerical friends are not, and it is something that cannot be gained through training.

Edit: Nephite, good point. I glossed over that in the flavor text.

Looks like we are 2-and-2 (I'll count you twice).
Skeetweasel
11-09-05, 12:58 PM I can just as easily see a paladin as either.

Born: knows that he/she wants to battle evil from an early age
has a courageous streak second to none
believes in the forces of good
doesn't mind taking orders

Made: born on the streets and was saved by the church
was a warrior that saw the power of the church and wanted to join up
had a mentor that was a paladin

To me the made paladin has a better story. Being born to be a holy warrior is just boring. Usually people have a reason to join a faith or fight for one. I like more of the redemption story.
Sasha Windsor
11-09-05, 01:02 PM You are making good points, things I had not considered. And yes, I agree that the made paladin is a better story.

I may have to change my stance on this one.
Mystic Mouse
11-09-05, 01:28 PM Made.

Trained as a fighter and instilled with purpose; and gifted with power from a god to do His divine will.

So too can they waver in their purpose, lose their favor, and fall from grace; as with all un-born talent.
CaoSlayer
11-09-05, 01:40 PM getting both argument you can say that a paladin it is kinda like a mithril sword...

you cant make a mithril sword from a pile of steel neither a pile of iron or ever a pile of wood, you need mithril for making a mithril sword, same hapens with paladins, only a good, near exalted person can be maded into a paladin.

But you need the shaping, just cant call mithril sword a pile of mithril ore, also if you forges it into a... mithril axe, then neither it is a mithril sword ever if both are cutting things that slays monters; the same it is with paladins, not every good person it is a paladin because they need the training to become one, not every lawful good aligned fighter it is a paladin because that fighter didnt had the training and the divine focus of the paladin.
heretic888
11-09-05, 01:52 PM I'm gonna go against the current and adopt a unique position here.

In my opinion, every class --- without exception --- is both born and made. I see no dichotomy between the two whatsoever. Period.

Y'see, its really quite simple. No matter how much natural ability, magical talent, or divine grace any given person has, he or she still has to go through the training to acquire their class skills and abilities in the first place. An education of some kind, whether self-taught (as with the Sorcerer) or through formal instruction (as with the Wizard), is absolutely required.

This doesn't just refer to first level, either. This training and education is an ongoing process (and varies considerably from class to class) that takes place throughout the character's life (and, in some cases, afterlife).

Just think about it: if some classes are simply "born", why do they benefit as much from experience points as everyone else?? Hrmmm.

Take that, nature vs nurture!! :P

Laterz.
Bounces
11-09-05, 02:27 PM I think paladins are a mix of both much like what heretic said. I believe they are born with talent...but unless that go and get training they will end up just being a person with talent for the devine (maybe a favored soul even).
Rulebook
11-09-05, 03:06 PM i like the paladin mentor idea.

i like the idea of the paladin being like the old Knight famlies, where the father was one, adn the son was expected to train in the ways of it as well. Knights are just failed Paladins!
El_Machinae
11-09-05, 05:39 PM A paladin is a soldier in the battle of good versus evil. There are whole planes based on the concept of good and evil.

If a paladin is BORN, then it is made by the forces of good, and thus dips into their resources. If the planes are balanced, the presence of a paladin doesn't tip the balance any which way. Locally, of course there's a tip, but cosmically, there isn't.

If the paladin is MADE (of his own free will), then his presence actually ADDS to the total resources of "good". He may be a microscopic boost, but he's a boost.

PS: my theory is that native outsiders (such as aasimars) actually 'costs' the planes of good a small amount of 'good' resources, and thus, this is the reason why the planes aren't over run in half-celestials - in the end, it contributes nothing to the total resources of good. However, paladins, clerics, etc. of normal races actually contribute to the overall cause.
serow_#R
11-09-05, 06:22 PM i think paladins are made

"I do not mean a saint, but a warrior whom God gave more than common gifts and then put under a more than common burden." -- Martinus, in Three Hearts and Three Lions, by Poul Anderson.

i like this phrase :D

clerics are made too, to me. favoured souls are born :)
Sunrider
11-09-05, 06:56 PM Doesn't matter what the PHB fluff-text says - books (apart from campaign setting information) are mainly there for crunch, not fluff.

RP-wise, it's whatever your backstory says that counts. If your backstory makes you a 'born' paladin, then so be it. Likewise if it makes you a 'made' paladin.
heretic888
11-09-05, 07:27 PM RP-wise, it's whatever your backstory says that counts. If your backstory makes you a 'born' paladin, then so be it. Likewise if it makes you a 'made' paladin.

Well, that's gonna be a hard sell to make to your DM unless you're gonna claim your Pally is 'born again' at every new class level....

Sorry, couldn't help myself. :P

Laterz.
TheWinterBard
11-09-05, 07:58 PM I like the mithral sword analogy; furthermore, it kind of applies to every class, not just paladins, in that you have to work to become (whatever) but not just anybody can make a good one. That's where xp kind of plays a role; you have to develop your talents.
heretic888
11-09-05, 08:07 PM I like the mithral sword analogy; furthermore, it kind of applies to every class, not just paladins, in that you have to work to become (whatever) but not just anybody can make a good one. That's where xp kind of plays a role; you have to develop your talents.

That's basically what my position is, too.

Nature vs nurture be condemned!! :D

Laterz.
Max the Immortal
11-09-05, 08:09 PM Born.

The path of a Paladin is a difficult one. It is full of struggle, hardship, and sacrifice. It is full of frustration; the need to be a paragon of decency surrounded by depravity. It is not an attractive life. Few people feel the call of this path, but many if not most of them resist it. It is only the rarest among them that is prepared to gladly carry the weight of the world on his shoulders and become a Paladin. A man cannot be shoehorned into this role if he is not 100% suited to it. You cannot draft a Paladin.
rampant
11-09-05, 11:23 PM To hell i can't

anyone can potencially become a paladin, theoretically it is possible to awaken a freaking golem and turn him into a paladin

yes the image of a flesh golem palading is a terrifying one deal with it

any one can be trained to do anything you just have to press the right buttons hard enough
don't make me start on the iron golem rouges

now some people need a lot more training than others

paladins could be made or born depending on how they becam a paladin, Say one character was trained to be a paladin from a young age because his family had always been knights of the church, another character might be a paladin because he cannot tolerate the existance of evil and forces himself to fight it at every turn

as to not being able to conscript a paladin its called brainwashing
HappyDragon
11-10-05, 12:26 AM Born or Made, is secondary to being chosen.

You cannot draft a Paladin
I would put forth that is exactly what happens.
Clerics can choose their God.
Gods choose their Paladins.
At least that's the way I like to look at it.

Even Paladins that may not have any religious beliefs, and instead try to uphold a Code for themselves has been touched by some cosmic force that has ordained them worthy enough to attempt the path of the Paladin.

'Attempt' being the opportune word, as Paladinhood is a dificult path and many will stumble along the way.

So it doesn't matter if a character was born smarter faster and stronger than everyone else, nor does it matter if they are top of the class of highly specialized training and hardships.....without the call being issued, the character will never even get a chance to respond.

Just my :twocents:
truepurple
11-10-05, 01:49 AM First of all, I believe the power of a paladin (as well what the flavor text says) comes from his/her goodness, not any god. The gods thing for clerics is annoying enough as it is. Don't put that on paladins.

Anyways, paladins are made.
What ever the flavor text says, saying they are born that way really subtracts from the accomplishment and freewill/force of will that is epitomized by paladins. I don't believe in fate per say and fate in game is boring/stupid IMO and experience.

But maybe the paladins require a rare type of person. A type of person you either grow into being or not, if you call that process of becoming your own person "born" then I suppose you could say paladins are "born". Such a interpretation isn't opposed by the flavor text either.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sasha Windsor 11-09-05, 12:08 PM	I've got an RP-related question. Classes like fighters, wizards and rogues are made. They weren't born with a special gift, aside from perhaps greater-than-normal strength or intelligence. When they are of age, they get some training so they can call themselves fighters or wizards or rogues. Classes like sorcerers are born. From birth, they have something in them that is brought out as they age. Some small amount of training may be involved, but a sorcerer is born. My question is: are paladins born or made? A member of my group is arguing with me on this one. I believe they are born, but require some combat training as they age. He believes that they are made. Their need to do good, coupled with some training, gives them power over evil. I'm just curious what you guys think. BTW, I know that this has little to no effect on the mechanics of the game. This is just a question that came up during the course of our debate.
CaoSlayer 11-09-05, 12:15 PM	I think they are 100% maded in the way that they are 75% fighter 25% cleric. In old plain AD&D, paladins used to be members of an order that was the responsible of this training, paladins are fighters with divine trainning and related powers.
Silverthumb128 11-09-05, 12:39 PM	It takes a very specific kind of person to be a Paladin, and it takes a high level of resolve that you just can't find in any city street. Not just anyone has what it takes to face the forces of evil with a solemn determination and an unshakable spirit. Paladins are born. :D
Nephlite 11-09-05, 12:56 PM	I've got an RP-related question. Classes like fighters, wizards and rogues are made. They weren't born with a special gift, aside from perhaps greater-than-normal strength or intelligence. When they are of age, they get some training so they can call themselves fighters or wizards or rogues. Classes like sorcerers are born. From birth, they have something in them that is brought out as they age. Some small amount of training may be involved, but a sorcerer is born. My question is: are paladins born or made? A member of my group is arguing with me on this one. I believe they are born, but require some combat training as they age. He believes that they are made. Their need to do good, coupled with some training, gives them power over evil. I'm just curious what you guys think. BTW, I know that this has little to no effect on the mechanics of the game. This is just a question that came up during the course of our debate. I say Botrn: the Flavor text says the call can come anytime: at the beggining of adventuring career or later. Just like Sorceror you don't need to be levl 1 as one: you can come one at anytime because the power was always in you. Many are called but few are chosen: they aren't chosen till they decide to take a level in it.
Sasha Windsor 11-09-05, 12:57 PM	Alright, so far we are 1-and-1! :) I may be adding some of my own beliefs beyond the game into this, but the divine grace ability seems like the paladin is blessed in a way that even their clerical friends are not, and it is something that cannot be gained through training. Edit: Nephite, good point. I glossed over that in the flavor text. Looks like we are 2-and-2 (I'll count you twice).
Skeetweasel 11-09-05, 12:58 PM	I can just as easily see a paladin as either. Born: knows that he/she wants to battle evil from an early age has a courageous streak second to none believes in the forces of good doesn't mind taking orders Made: born on the streets and was saved by the church was a warrior that saw the power of the church and wanted to join up had a mentor that was a paladin To me the made paladin has a better story. Being born to be a holy warrior is just boring. Usually people have a reason to join a faith or fight for one. I like more of the redemption story.
Sasha Windsor 11-09-05, 01:02 PM	You are making good points, things I had not considered. And yes, I agree that the made paladin is a better story. I may have to change my stance on this one.
Mystic Mouse 11-09-05, 01:28 PM	Made. Trained as a fighter and instilled with purpose; and gifted with power from a god to do His divine will. So too can they waver in their purpose, lose their favor, and fall from grace; as with all un-born talent.
CaoSlayer 11-09-05, 01:40 PM	getting both argument you can say that a paladin it is kinda like a mithril sword... you cant make a mithril sword from a pile of steel neither a pile of iron or ever a pile of wood, you need mithril for making a mithril sword, same hapens with paladins, only a good, near exalted person can be maded into a paladin. But you need the shaping, just cant call mithril sword a pile of mithril ore, also if you forges it into a... mithril axe, then neither it is a mithril sword ever if both are cutting things that slays monters; the same it is with paladins, not every good person it is a paladin because they need the training to become one, not every lawful good aligned fighter it is a paladin because that fighter didnt had the training and the divine focus of the paladin.
heretic888 11-09-05, 01:52 PM	I'm gonna go against the current and adopt a unique position here. In my opinion, every class --- without exception --- is both born and made. I see no dichotomy between the two whatsoever. Period. Y'see, its really quite simple. No matter how much natural ability, magical talent, or divine grace any given person has, he or she still has to go through the training to acquire their class skills and abilities in the first place. An education of some kind, whether self-taught (as with the Sorcerer) or through formal instruction (as with the Wizard), is absolutely required. This doesn't just refer to first level, either. This training and education is an ongoing process (and varies considerably from class to class) that takes place throughout the character's life (and, in some cases, afterlife). Just think about it: if some classes are simply "born", why do they benefit as much from experience points as everyone else?? Hrmmm. Take that, nature vs nurture!! :P Laterz.
Bounces 11-09-05, 02:27 PM	I think paladins are a mix of both much like what heretic said. I believe they are born with talent...but unless that go and get training they will end up just being a person with talent for the devine (maybe a favored soul even).
Rulebook 11-09-05, 03:06 PM	i like the paladin mentor idea. i like the idea of the paladin being like the old Knight famlies, where the father was one, adn the son was expected to train in the ways of it as well. Knights are just failed Paladins!
El_Machinae 11-09-05, 05:39 PM	A paladin is a soldier in the battle of good versus evil. There are whole planes based on the concept of good and evil. If a paladin is BORN, then it is made by the forces of good, and thus dips into their resources. If the planes are balanced, the presence of a paladin doesn't tip the balance any which way. Locally, of course there's a tip, but cosmically, there isn't. If the paladin is MADE (of his own free will), then his presence actually ADDS to the total resources of "good". He may be a microscopic boost, but he's a boost. PS: my theory is that native outsiders (such as aasimars) actually 'costs' the planes of good a small amount of 'good' resources, and thus, this is the reason why the planes aren't over run in half-celestials - in the end, it contributes nothing to the total resources of good. However, paladins, clerics, etc. of normal races actually contribute to the overall cause.
serow_#R 11-09-05, 06:22 PM	i think paladins are made "I do not mean a saint, but a warrior whom God gave more than common gifts and then put under a more than common burden." -- Martinus, in Three Hearts and Three Lions, by Poul Anderson. i like this phrase :D clerics are made too, to me. favoured souls are born :)
Sunrider 11-09-05, 06:56 PM	Doesn't matter what the PHB fluff-text says - books (apart from campaign setting information) are mainly there for crunch, not fluff. RP-wise, it's whatever your backstory says that counts. If your backstory makes you a 'born' paladin, then so be it. Likewise if it makes you a 'made' paladin.
heretic888 11-09-05, 07:27 PM	RP-wise, it's whatever your backstory says that counts. If your backstory makes you a 'born' paladin, then so be it. Likewise if it makes you a 'made' paladin. Well, that's gonna be a hard sell to make to your DM unless you're gonna claim your Pally is 'born again' at every new class level.... Sorry, couldn't help myself. :P Laterz.
TheWinterBard 11-09-05, 07:58 PM	I like the mithral sword analogy; furthermore, it kind of applies to every class, not just paladins, in that you have to work to become (whatever) but not just anybody can make a good one. That's where xp kind of plays a role; you have to develop your talents.
heretic888 11-09-05, 08:07 PM	I like the mithral sword analogy; furthermore, it kind of applies to every class, not just paladins, in that you have to work to become (whatever) but not just anybody can make a good one. That's where xp kind of plays a role; you have to develop your talents. That's basically what my position is, too. Nature vs nurture be condemned!! :D Laterz.
Max the Immortal 11-09-05, 08:09 PM	Born. The path of a Paladin is a difficult one. It is full of struggle, hardship, and sacrifice. It is full of frustration; the need to be a paragon of decency surrounded by depravity. It is not an attractive life. Few people feel the call of this path, but many if not most of them resist it. It is only the rarest among them that is prepared to gladly carry the weight of the world on his shoulders and become a Paladin. A man cannot be shoehorned into this role if he is not 100% suited to it. You cannot draft a Paladin.
rampant 11-09-05, 11:23 PM	To hell i can't anyone can potencially become a paladin, theoretically it is possible to awaken a freaking golem and turn him into a paladin yes the image of a flesh golem palading is a terrifying one deal with it any one can be trained to do anything you just have to press the right buttons hard enough don't make me start on the iron golem rouges now some people need a lot more training than others paladins could be made or born depending on how they becam a paladin, Say one character was trained to be a paladin from a young age because his family had always been knights of the church, another character might be a paladin because he cannot tolerate the existance of evil and forces himself to fight it at every turn as to not being able to conscript a paladin its called brainwashing
HappyDragon 11-10-05, 12:26 AM	Born or Made, is secondary to being chosen. You cannot draft a Paladin I would put forth that is exactly what happens. Clerics can choose their God. Gods choose their Paladins. At least that's the way I like to look at it. Even Paladins that may not have any religious beliefs, and instead try to uphold a Code for themselves has been touched by some cosmic force that has ordained them worthy enough to attempt the path of the Paladin. 'Attempt' being the opportune word, as Paladinhood is a dificult path and many will stumble along the way. So it doesn't matter if a character was born smarter faster and stronger than everyone else, nor does it matter if they are top of the class of highly specialized training and hardships.....without the call being issued, the character will never even get a chance to respond. Just my :twocents:
truepurple 11-10-05, 01:49 AM	First of all, I believe the power of a paladin (as well what the flavor text says) comes from his/her goodness, not any god. The gods thing for clerics is annoying enough as it is. Don't put that on paladins. Anyways, paladins are made. What ever the flavor text says, saying they are born that way really subtracts from the accomplishment and freewill/force of will that is epitomized by paladins. I don't believe in fate per say and fate in game is boring/stupid IMO and experience. But maybe the paladins require a rare type of person. A type of person you either grow into being or not, if you call that process of becoming your own person "born" then I suppose you could say paladins are "born". Such a interpretation isn't opposed by the flavor text either.