BoVD & BoED 3.0 or 3.5? [Archive] - Wizards Community

BoVD & BoED 3.0 or 3.5? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Keladelros
04-13-07, 11:15 PM Are the Book of Vile Darkness and the Book of Exalted Deeds 3.0 or 3.5?

Need to know for a campaign I'm going to run...
Nephlite
04-13-07, 11:22 PM Are the Book of Vile Darkness and the Book of Exalted Deeds 3.0 or 3.5?

Need to know for a campaign I'm going to run...

Book of Exalted Deeds was writen in 3.5.

Book of Vile Darkness was like the last of the 3.0's (I think).
Aktariel
04-13-07, 11:56 PM BoVD is kinda... 3.25. It was done during the transition, and so it's got some weird bits in it. And IIRC, BoED has kinda the same problem...

I'm pretty sure there's a 3.5 update for BoVD somewhere. [And, depending on what you're doing, it's a far better book than that stupid Exalted crap anyway.]
Flan
04-14-07, 01:14 AM Are the Book of Vile Darkness and the Book of Exalted Deeds 3.0 or 3.5?

Need to know for a campaign I'm going to run...

It shouldn't matter. If you see something weird like a partial action or damage reduction with a +X in it then just convert it.
Jaxgaret
04-14-07, 01:18 AM They're fully usable for 3.5.

Those two books and Savage Species make up what a lot of people term "3.25", made in the transition period between 3.0 and 3.5.

If something from either book isn't completely 3.5-compatible, it should be easily convertible or there is a direct conversion for it somewhere already.
Keladelros
04-14-07, 02:47 AM I am running a campaign where resources are limited, such as money and equipment. This campaign is set after an invasion of Undead Legions. There are a few 'sanctuaries' on the continent affected but even there, they live off of what they make and equipment is not (in most cases) readily availiable.

I have a problem in that 2 of my players have decided to take Vow of Poverty.

In a game where resources are limited, (very limited) do you think that this is going to a problem with the other characters involved?
periscope
04-14-07, 02:58 AM yep it might, though if the other guys let them have their share it might be okay, as long as they find the occasional magic item (Hewards handy haversack comes to mind. You can never have to much space).
danielinthewolvesden
04-14-07, 03:18 AM I am running a campaign where resources are limited, such as money and equipment. This campaign is set after an invasion of Undead Legions. There are a few 'sanctuaries' on the continent affected but even there, they live off of what they make and equipment is not (in most cases) readily availiable.

I have a problem in that 2 of my players have decided to take Vow of Poverty.

In a game where resources are limited, (very limited) do you think that this is going to a problem with the other characters involved?

You run a Low-Magic game, then it is only fair that the Players get to go for VoP. It's less powerful and far more limiting than normal magic iems. I am suprised that TWO of them went for it, tho.
Jaxgaret
04-14-07, 03:21 AM I am running a campaign where resources are limited, such as money and equipment. This campaign is set after an invasion of Undead Legions. There are a few 'sanctuaries' on the continent affected but even there, they live off of what they make and equipment is not (in most cases) readily availiable.

I have a problem in that 2 of my players have decided to take Vow of Poverty.

In a game where resources are limited, (very limited) do you think that this is going to a problem with the other characters involved?

Yes. Vow of Poverty has been calculated to be worth approximately 80% of a character's normal wealth by level. If you're planning on running a campaign with lower treasure levels (like, say, 50% of the DMG guidelines), this will become unbalancing.

Possible solutions:

1) Disallow the feat.

2) Add more cost to taking the feat. Perhaps selection of any other Vow as a prerequisite, such as Vow of Purity or Vow of Abstinence.

3) Nerf the feat slightly, dropping all numerical amounts by 25%, rounded down.

4) Allow the other characters the chance to also take Vow of Poverty. Run a whole party of Exalted characters committed to ridding the world of material possessiveness.

5) Do nothing and run screaming for the hills when your players start complaining that the VoP Druid is outperforming the other 3/4 of the party combined.
Zenogias
04-14-07, 03:31 AM What you should do is provide a chance for the players to break their vow when the appearance of some readily powerful items suddenly appear. If they do break their vows, they discover that the items are trapped, or cursed, or by some other manner that they do not remain within the hands of those who took the vows. If they maintain their vows, perhaps you should simply accept them, but if they break their vows then you would have every right to punish.
Archangel62
04-14-07, 07:02 AM I will say as a side note that I don't use either book. BoED is interesting but too many of the mechanics rub me the wrong way, not to mention that paladin falling arguments have enough issues as is. With Vile Darkness I can make evil villians on my own, and I don't want any of my players tempted to use material from there. I do not use either book in my games.
Flan
04-14-07, 09:50 AM I have a problem in that 2 of my players have decided to take Vow of Poverty.

In a game where resources are limited, (very limited) do you think that this is going to a problem with the other characters involved?

A disadvantage that isn't a penalty isn't worth anything. In other words, poor people can't take a vow of poverty. As a DM you should dissalllow them from taking this as it's purely munchkinism.
Forgemaster
04-14-07, 10:03 AM As a DM you should dissalllow them from taking this as it's purely munchkinism.

Do you mean in the above mentioned situation, where treasure runs low? Then yes, its a solid way to just boost themselves and munchkin. But, the feat itself is a rather interesting feat for a character concept rather than just trying to Min/Max. (I played a VoP Cleric of Pelor, took it after being in Ravenloft for too long and seeing the suffering there). So if the character can think of a very good reason for such a thing, by all means I'd say allow it. But, do not allow it just so they can get ahead on resources.
chakrava
04-14-07, 01:12 PM yep it might, though if the other guys let them have their share it might be okay, as long as they find the occasional magic item (Hewards handy haversack comes to mind. You can never have to much space).

"Having a character in the party who has taken a vow of poverty should not necessarily mean that the other party members get bigger shares of the treasure!...The majority of her share of party treasure...should be donated to the needy..."-Book of Exalted Deeds, pg. 30

The true "ascetic munchkin" thusly donates 51% (a "majority") of all their loot to the needy, with fractions of a copper rounded down.
danielinthewolvesden
04-14-07, 02:41 PM Yes. Vow of Poverty has been calculated to be worth approximately 80% of a character's normal wealth by level. If you're planning on running a campaign with lower treasure levels (like, say, 50% of the DMG guidelines), this will become unbalancing.

Possible solutions:

6) Just give out the recommended wealth as per the DMG. :P

But that 80% figure is high and assumes the VoP PC's will have a high CHA to take advantage of the Bonus Exalted feats.
Morwen
04-14-07, 03:55 PM They're fully usable for 3.5.

Those two books and Savage Species make up what a lot of people term "3.25", made in the transition period between 3.0 and 3.5.

I don't consider BoVD to be 3.25.. It was released a full 9 months before the 3.5 core books came out, after all.

BoED, on the other hand, is fully 3.5. It was released 3 months after 3.5 came.

In my opinion, the "3.25"-books are Savage Species, Fiend Folio, Unapproachable East, Ghostwalk, and Races of Faerūn. They were all released 1-4 months before the 3.5 core books.
Jaxgaret
04-14-07, 04:15 PM BoED, on the other hand, is fully 3.5. It was released 3 months after 3.5 came.

In my opinion, the "3.25"-books are Savage Species, Fiend Folio, Unapproachable East, Ghostwalk, and Races of Faerūn. They were all released 1-4 months before the 3.5 core books.

Sample feat from BoED: Spell Focus (Good). Adds +2 to save DC for any spells you cast with the Good descriptor.

Sound like a 3.0 feat or a 3.5 feat to you? That's right, it was updated to a 3.5 feat in the Complete Divine, reducing its bonus to +1.

This is one of multiple examples of BoED blurring the lines between 3.0 and 3.5. Thus I would include it in the group of books considered "3.25".

But you are right about the BoVD. It's 3.0.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Keladelros 04-13-07, 11:15 PM	Are the Book of Vile Darkness and the Book of Exalted Deeds 3.0 or 3.5? Need to know for a campaign I'm going to run...
Nephlite 04-13-07, 11:22 PM	Are the Book of Vile Darkness and the Book of Exalted Deeds 3.0 or 3.5? Need to know for a campaign I'm going to run... Book of Exalted Deeds was writen in 3.5. Book of Vile Darkness was like the last of the 3.0's (I think).
Aktariel 04-13-07, 11:56 PM	BoVD is kinda... 3.25. It was done during the transition, and so it's got some weird bits in it. And IIRC, BoED has kinda the same problem... I'm pretty sure there's a 3.5 update for BoVD somewhere. [And, depending on what you're doing, it's a far better book than that stupid Exalted crap anyway.]
Flan 04-14-07, 01:14 AM	Are the Book of Vile Darkness and the Book of Exalted Deeds 3.0 or 3.5? Need to know for a campaign I'm going to run... It shouldn't matter. If you see something weird like a partial action or damage reduction with a +X in it then just convert it.
Jaxgaret 04-14-07, 01:18 AM	They're fully usable for 3.5. Those two books and Savage Species make up what a lot of people term "3.25", made in the transition period between 3.0 and 3.5. If something from either book isn't completely 3.5-compatible, it should be easily convertible or there is a direct conversion for it somewhere already.
Keladelros 04-14-07, 02:47 AM	I am running a campaign where resources are limited, such as money and equipment. This campaign is set after an invasion of Undead Legions. There are a few 'sanctuaries' on the continent affected but even there, they live off of what they make and equipment is not (in most cases) readily availiable. I have a problem in that 2 of my players have decided to take Vow of Poverty. In a game where resources are limited, (very limited) do you think that this is going to a problem with the other characters involved?
periscope 04-14-07, 02:58 AM	yep it might, though if the other guys let them have their share it might be okay, as long as they find the occasional magic item (Hewards handy haversack comes to mind. You can never have to much space).
danielinthewolvesden 04-14-07, 03:18 AM	I am running a campaign where resources are limited, such as money and equipment. This campaign is set after an invasion of Undead Legions. There are a few 'sanctuaries' on the continent affected but even there, they live off of what they make and equipment is not (in most cases) readily availiable. I have a problem in that 2 of my players have decided to take Vow of Poverty. In a game where resources are limited, (very limited) do you think that this is going to a problem with the other characters involved? You run a Low-Magic game, then it is only fair that the Players get to go for VoP. It's less powerful and far more limiting than normal magic iems. I am suprised that TWO of them went for it, tho.
Jaxgaret 04-14-07, 03:21 AM	I am running a campaign where resources are limited, such as money and equipment. This campaign is set after an invasion of Undead Legions. There are a few 'sanctuaries' on the continent affected but even there, they live off of what they make and equipment is not (in most cases) readily availiable. I have a problem in that 2 of my players have decided to take Vow of Poverty. In a game where resources are limited, (very limited) do you think that this is going to a problem with the other characters involved? Yes. Vow of Poverty has been calculated to be worth approximately 80% of a character's normal wealth by level. If you're planning on running a campaign with lower treasure levels (like, say, 50% of the DMG guidelines), this will become unbalancing. Possible solutions: 1) Disallow the feat. 2) Add more cost to taking the feat. Perhaps selection of any other Vow as a prerequisite, such as Vow of Purity or Vow of Abstinence. 3) Nerf the feat slightly, dropping all numerical amounts by 25%, rounded down. 4) Allow the other characters the chance to also take Vow of Poverty. Run a whole party of Exalted characters committed to ridding the world of material possessiveness. 5) Do nothing and run screaming for the hills when your players start complaining that the VoP Druid is outperforming the other 3/4 of the party combined.
Zenogias 04-14-07, 03:31 AM	What you should do is provide a chance for the players to break their vow when the appearance of some readily powerful items suddenly appear. If they do break their vows, they discover that the items are trapped, or cursed, or by some other manner that they do not remain within the hands of those who took the vows. If they maintain their vows, perhaps you should simply accept them, but if they break their vows then you would have every right to punish.
Archangel62 04-14-07, 07:02 AM	I will say as a side note that I don't use either book. BoED is interesting but too many of the mechanics rub me the wrong way, not to mention that paladin falling arguments have enough issues as is. With Vile Darkness I can make evil villians on my own, and I don't want any of my players tempted to use material from there. I do not use either book in my games.
Flan 04-14-07, 09:50 AM	I have a problem in that 2 of my players have decided to take Vow of Poverty. In a game where resources are limited, (very limited) do you think that this is going to a problem with the other characters involved? A disadvantage that isn't a penalty isn't worth anything. In other words, poor people can't take a vow of poverty. As a DM you should dissalllow them from taking this as it's purely munchkinism.
Forgemaster 04-14-07, 10:03 AM	As a DM you should dissalllow them from taking this as it's purely munchkinism. Do you mean in the above mentioned situation, where treasure runs low? Then yes, its a solid way to just boost themselves and munchkin. But, the feat itself is a rather interesting feat for a character concept rather than just trying to Min/Max. (I played a VoP Cleric of Pelor, took it after being in Ravenloft for too long and seeing the suffering there). So if the character can think of a very good reason for such a thing, by all means I'd say allow it. But, do not allow it just so they can get ahead on resources.
chakrava 04-14-07, 01:12 PM	yep it might, though if the other guys let them have their share it might be okay, as long as they find the occasional magic item (Hewards handy haversack comes to mind. You can never have to much space). "Having a character in the party who has taken a vow of poverty should not necessarily mean that the other party members get bigger shares of the treasure!...The majority of her share of party treasure...should be donated to the needy..."-Book of Exalted Deeds, pg. 30 The true "ascetic munchkin" thusly donates 51% (a "majority") of all their loot to the needy, with fractions of a copper rounded down.
danielinthewolvesden 04-14-07, 02:41 PM	Yes. Vow of Poverty has been calculated to be worth approximately 80% of a character's normal wealth by level. If you're planning on running a campaign with lower treasure levels (like, say, 50% of the DMG guidelines), this will become unbalancing. Possible solutions: 6) Just give out the recommended wealth as per the DMG. :P But that 80% figure is high and assumes the VoP PC's will have a high CHA to take advantage of the Bonus Exalted feats.
Morwen 04-14-07, 03:55 PM	They're fully usable for 3.5. Those two books and Savage Species make up what a lot of people term "3.25", made in the transition period between 3.0 and 3.5. I don't consider BoVD to be 3.25.. It was released a full 9 months before the 3.5 core books came out, after all. BoED, on the other hand, is fully 3.5. It was released 3 months after 3.5 came. In my opinion, the "3.25"-books are Savage Species, Fiend Folio, Unapproachable East, Ghostwalk, and Races of Faerūn. They were all released 1-4 months before the 3.5 core books.
Jaxgaret 04-14-07, 04:15 PM	BoED, on the other hand, is fully 3.5. It was released 3 months after 3.5 came. In my opinion, the "3.25"-books are Savage Species, Fiend Folio, Unapproachable East, Ghostwalk, and Races of Faerūn. They were all released 1-4 months before the 3.5 core books. Sample feat from BoED: Spell Focus (Good). Adds +2 to save DC for any spells you cast with the Good descriptor. Sound like a 3.0 feat or a 3.5 feat to you? That's right, it was updated to a 3.5 feat in the Complete Divine, reducing its bonus to +1. This is one of multiple examples of BoED blurring the lines between 3.0 and 3.5. Thus I would include it in the group of books considered "3.25". But you are right about the BoVD. It's 3.0.