Bow damage vs spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bow damage vs spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Evicmar
04-10-07, 01:40 PM I know that this will generate a lot of grief, but I'm posting it anyway. When was the last time someone did this comparison using magic arrows? I know a mage at 20th can cast 2 20d6 fireballs in a single round. But an archer can really get up there in ranged damage with magic arrows. Everyone seems to forget that ammo can be magical and also stack with the bow. 6 arrows a round doing 1d8+5+str+1d6 fire+1d6 cold+1d6 electric+1d6 sonic+1d6 acid+2d6 vs evil+2d6 vs chaotic+2d6(vicious)+2d6 vs demons(bane) or 1D8 +5+str+13d6 if all happen. Oh and let's not forget that there is no SR to penetrate and you are only losing 2 from your attack bonus for rapid shot so you will hit a majority of the arrows. Now let's not forget that the wizard has a finite number of spells per day and not all of them are combat spells. Any wizard that does not take get out of jail free spells doesn't make it to see 20th level. That was past experience talking. Oh, and has anyone ever had a spell countered by an opposing caster waiting to counter spell. There's a chance the wizard does nothing in the round. So I ask, what's better maybe casting a couple of spells or guaranteed damage vs opposing casters?

Permission to munchkin granted :D
Shadowhowler
04-10-07, 01:47 PM Hm.

Well, the Wizard has a finite amount of spells, sure... but those freak arrows cost money, lots of it, and you have a finite amount of them also.

Also, every shot is an attack roll, with a chance to miss.

Even if every arrow hits its target, your doing a lot of damage to that one target per arrow, while the fireball is doing a$$loads of damage to everything in the radius.

All the fireballs costs the wizard is some bat poo or whatever... your arrows are going to get pretty expensive if used often.

However, the arrows are mosre usefull if your foes and friends are all clustered together.

So many varriables... but for the most part, I'd say the standered holds true more then not... it's better to be a powerful and well played spellcaster then a powerful and well player fighter in most situations when it's a matter of raw a$$kickery.
Evicmar
04-10-07, 01:53 PM The fighter/ranger/warrior class does have a role to miss. Let's not forget that the ranger with those arrows geared against wizards would be able to snip the wizard before he get's a chance to toss his 1st fireball. Let's say only half hit, 3d8+15+3*str+39d6, how many HP does a wizard have at 20th again?
Shadowhowler
04-10-07, 02:02 PM The fighter/ranger/warrior class does have a role to miss. Let's not forget that the ranger with those arrows geared against wizards would be able to snip the wizard before he get's a chance to toss his 1st fireball. Let's say only half hit, 3d8+15+3*str+39d6, how many HP does a wizard have at 20th again?

I didn't think your question was geared towards an 'Archer vs Wizard' as in a one on one fight... the impression I got was you were comparing them in their ability to dish out damage, not their ability to fight one another, thats a whole differant conversation.
follieslabour
04-10-07, 02:04 PM I know that this will generate a lot of grief, but I'm posting it anyway. When was the last time someone did this comparison using magic arrows? I know a mage at 20th can cast 2 20d6 fireballs in a single round. But an archer can really get up there in ranged damage with magic arrows. Everyone seems to forget that ammo can be magical and also stack with the bow. 6 arrows a round doing 1d8+5+str+1d6 fire+1d6 cold+1d6 electric+1d6 sonic+1d6 acid+2d6 vs evil+2d6 vs chaotic+2d6(vicious)+2d6 vs demons(bane) or 1D8 +5+str+13d6 if all happen. Oh and let's not forget that there is no SR to penetrate and you are only losing 2 from your attack bonus for rapid shot so you will hit a majority of the arrows. Now let's not forget that the wizard has a finite number of spells per day and not all of them are combat spells. Any wizard that does not take get out of jail free spells doesn't make it to see 20th level. That was past experience talking. Oh, and has anyone ever had a spell countered by an opposing caster waiting to counter spell. There's a chance the wizard does nothing in the round. So I ask, what's better maybe casting a couple of spells or guaranteed damage vs opposing casters?

Permission to munchkin granted :D

I prefer the arrow route, with a high dex bonus and improved initiative you will usually go first ready a standard action, manyshot(4 arrows all at top BaB -8) for example and when the caster goes for the spell *bam* d8 +5(enhancement) +2(+2 compositebow) +4(Greater weapon specialization) +d6(energy type) for each of the 4 arrows = stupidly high concentration check and lots of damage on someone who can't take that much.

Don't get me wrong all it will take is for one spell to get through and you'll be mince meat, this is why I hate quickened spells, but then you should have at least one spellcaster in the party to counter all the spells that slip through.
Evicmar
04-10-07, 02:19 PM My point wasn't that it was class vs class. It was that there is no way to counter the arrows. The spell caster could cast all his spells and watch them all get countered doing nothing for several rounds or he could drop dead before he get's a chance to cast his first spell. Even with full spells all it takes is one teleporting grapler to take the wizard right out of the fight. And any healer would agree that those arrows were worth every GP spent.
bitnine
04-10-07, 02:23 PM Why would a high level wizard be interested in dealing damage? Someone with 9th level spells casting metamagicked fireballs has traded his pointy hat for a dunce cap. And despite the visual similarity, I sorta don't care about that fellow.
The_Shaman
04-10-07, 02:27 PM Well, blasting isn't necessary the most useful aspect of spells, but they have a few useful details too. First of all, they're harder to counter - a lvl 2/3 spell (wind wall, not to mention protection from arrows or various obscurement spells) is enough to make arrows practically useless - and there are few spells or items that can do that to magic. Second, arrows tend to miss more often than spells, as they involve attack rolls, while spells almost always either require none or require a touch attack.
Evicmar
04-10-07, 02:32 PM Why would a high level wizard be interested in dealing damage? Someone with 9th level spells casting metamagicked fireballs has traded his pointy hat for a dunce cap. And despite the visual similarity, I sorta don't care about that fellow.

I agree with you completely. I wanted to get the munchkins to read and realize that the statement of "wizards are too powerful" is false. Yes they can do a lot of damage at once. Yes they can play the role of an other class for a short time. Most of the time the role they fill is supporting the front line troops by amping them up in groups that work well together. No one class is any better than any other. They all fill roles needed for survival of the group. :cool:
crimsonwolf
04-10-07, 02:33 PM Theres a enchamnet in Comp Mage that lets you treat your bow like a wand and cast chrages into an arrow but you take a standered action to use it and then only one round to fire it.
Garonak
04-10-07, 02:43 PM 5 arrows a round vs Finger of Death, Wish, Horrid Wilting, Wail of the Banshee, Gate? Hm... let me think... Think I'll stick with the wise guy.
OravennasBrother
04-10-07, 03:49 PM Enchant the Bow at +1 Fire etc, then take a level of Wizard/SOrcerer, then take Arcane Archer.
A +1 bow with 5 +1 extras is ~72K and does not cost anything.
Then the Attacks looks like
-2,-2,-7,-12,-17 from full bow attack bonus which is something like
BAB + Dex +5 (high level Arcan Archer) + 2 (WF and GWF)
is Dex is ~22 this becomes
BAB +13 An extra +2 to hit from Bracers of Archery (Greater) makes it BAB +15 for attacks of
BAB+13, BAB+13, BAB+8, BAB+3, BAB-2
Which FAIRLY might be expected to generate 3 "hits" per round for 3 x (1d8+5+(Strength Bonus) 5d6)=3d8+15+15d6+3xStrength
If Strength Bonus is +3 (for a reasonable example at such a level) then the average (to a single target with no SR but energy resistance/immunity or DR will reduce it quickly) becomes ~90 - not bad, but still not overwhelming.
SR is more a problem for Wizards, but Energy Immunity/resistance can really drop DIRECT Damage, so a Wizard has to be cognizant of what sort of opponents need what spells and then BE PREPARED for those opponents.
A slight cost increase would be to have +1 Bane arrows for the Archer (though 2d6 for 360 GP a shot is kind of steep before Epic levels) the damage also does not include Critical hits which can be a factor in a particular combat.

I have seen a case where the party archer (not an Arcane Archer) managed to inflict (with two timely criticals, a +3 Bow, Strength 14 and Precise Shot + some bonus I'm having trouble recalling) around 100 HP damage in a single round against a Large dragon which was grappling with the party Melee specialist. That was decisive. And Fun.
Garonak
04-10-07, 04:14 PM Just a note: BAB never changes (except with lvl up of course), attack modifiers change.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Evicmar 04-10-07, 01:40 PM	I know that this will generate a lot of grief, but I'm posting it anyway. When was the last time someone did this comparison using magic arrows? I know a mage at 20th can cast 2 20d6 fireballs in a single round. But an archer can really get up there in ranged damage with magic arrows. Everyone seems to forget that ammo can be magical and also stack with the bow. 6 arrows a round doing 1d8+5+str+1d6 fire+1d6 cold+1d6 electric+1d6 sonic+1d6 acid+2d6 vs evil+2d6 vs chaotic+2d6(vicious)+2d6 vs demons(bane) or 1D8 +5+str+13d6 if all happen. Oh and let's not forget that there is no SR to penetrate and you are only losing 2 from your attack bonus for rapid shot so you will hit a majority of the arrows. Now let's not forget that the wizard has a finite number of spells per day and not all of them are combat spells. Any wizard that does not take get out of jail free spells doesn't make it to see 20th level. That was past experience talking. Oh, and has anyone ever had a spell countered by an opposing caster waiting to counter spell. There's a chance the wizard does nothing in the round. So I ask, what's better maybe casting a couple of spells or guaranteed damage vs opposing casters? Permission to munchkin granted :D
Shadowhowler 04-10-07, 01:47 PM	Hm. Well, the Wizard has a finite amount of spells, sure... but those freak arrows cost money, lots of it, and you have a finite amount of them also. Also, every shot is an attack roll, with a chance to miss. Even if every arrow hits its target, your doing a lot of damage to that one target per arrow, while the fireball is doing a$$loads of damage to everything in the radius. All the fireballs costs the wizard is some bat poo or whatever... your arrows are going to get pretty expensive if used often. However, the arrows are mosre usefull if your foes and friends are all clustered together. So many varriables... but for the most part, I'd say the standered holds true more then not... it's better to be a powerful and well played spellcaster then a powerful and well player fighter in most situations when it's a matter of raw a$$kickery.
Evicmar 04-10-07, 01:53 PM	The fighter/ranger/warrior class does have a role to miss. Let's not forget that the ranger with those arrows geared against wizards would be able to snip the wizard before he get's a chance to toss his 1st fireball. Let's say only half hit, 3d8+15+3*str+39d6, how many HP does a wizard have at 20th again?
Shadowhowler 04-10-07, 02:02 PM	The fighter/ranger/warrior class does have a role to miss. Let's not forget that the ranger with those arrows geared against wizards would be able to snip the wizard before he get's a chance to toss his 1st fireball. Let's say only half hit, 3d8+15+3*str+39d6, how many HP does a wizard have at 20th again? I didn't think your question was geared towards an 'Archer vs Wizard' as in a one on one fight... the impression I got was you were comparing them in their ability to dish out damage, not their ability to fight one another, thats a whole differant conversation.
follieslabour 04-10-07, 02:04 PM	I know that this will generate a lot of grief, but I'm posting it anyway. When was the last time someone did this comparison using magic arrows? I know a mage at 20th can cast 2 20d6 fireballs in a single round. But an archer can really get up there in ranged damage with magic arrows. Everyone seems to forget that ammo can be magical and also stack with the bow. 6 arrows a round doing 1d8+5+str+1d6 fire+1d6 cold+1d6 electric+1d6 sonic+1d6 acid+2d6 vs evil+2d6 vs chaotic+2d6(vicious)+2d6 vs demons(bane) or 1D8 +5+str+13d6 if all happen. Oh and let's not forget that there is no SR to penetrate and you are only losing 2 from your attack bonus for rapid shot so you will hit a majority of the arrows. Now let's not forget that the wizard has a finite number of spells per day and not all of them are combat spells. Any wizard that does not take get out of jail free spells doesn't make it to see 20th level. That was past experience talking. Oh, and has anyone ever had a spell countered by an opposing caster waiting to counter spell. There's a chance the wizard does nothing in the round. So I ask, what's better maybe casting a couple of spells or guaranteed damage vs opposing casters? Permission to munchkin granted :D I prefer the arrow route, with a high dex bonus and improved initiative you will usually go first ready a standard action, manyshot(4 arrows all at top BaB -8) for example and when the caster goes for the spell bam d8 +5(enhancement) +2(+2 compositebow) +4(Greater weapon specialization) +d6(energy type) for each of the 4 arrows = stupidly high concentration check and lots of damage on someone who can't take that much. Don't get me wrong all it will take is for one spell to get through and you'll be mince meat, this is why I hate quickened spells, but then you should have at least one spellcaster in the party to counter all the spells that slip through.
Evicmar 04-10-07, 02:19 PM	My point wasn't that it was class vs class. It was that there is no way to counter the arrows. The spell caster could cast all his spells and watch them all get countered doing nothing for several rounds or he could drop dead before he get's a chance to cast his first spell. Even with full spells all it takes is one teleporting grapler to take the wizard right out of the fight. And any healer would agree that those arrows were worth every GP spent.
bitnine 04-10-07, 02:23 PM	Why would a high level wizard be interested in dealing damage? Someone with 9th level spells casting metamagicked fireballs has traded his pointy hat for a dunce cap. And despite the visual similarity, I sorta don't care about that fellow.
The_Shaman 04-10-07, 02:27 PM	Well, blasting isn't necessary the most useful aspect of spells, but they have a few useful details too. First of all, they're harder to counter - a lvl 2/3 spell (wind wall, not to mention protection from arrows or various obscurement spells) is enough to make arrows practically useless - and there are few spells or items that can do that to magic. Second, arrows tend to miss more often than spells, as they involve attack rolls, while spells almost always either require none or require a touch attack.
Evicmar 04-10-07, 02:32 PM	Why would a high level wizard be interested in dealing damage? Someone with 9th level spells casting metamagicked fireballs has traded his pointy hat for a dunce cap. And despite the visual similarity, I sorta don't care about that fellow. I agree with you completely. I wanted to get the munchkins to read and realize that the statement of "wizards are too powerful" is false. Yes they can do a lot of damage at once. Yes they can play the role of an other class for a short time. Most of the time the role they fill is supporting the front line troops by amping them up in groups that work well together. No one class is any better than any other. They all fill roles needed for survival of the group. :cool:
crimsonwolf 04-10-07, 02:33 PM	Theres a enchamnet in Comp Mage that lets you treat your bow like a wand and cast chrages into an arrow but you take a standered action to use it and then only one round to fire it.
Garonak 04-10-07, 02:43 PM	5 arrows a round vs Finger of Death, Wish, Horrid Wilting, Wail of the Banshee, Gate? Hm... let me think... Think I'll stick with the wise guy.
OravennasBrother 04-10-07, 03:49 PM	Enchant the Bow at +1 Fire etc, then take a level of Wizard/SOrcerer, then take Arcane Archer. A +1 bow with 5 +1 extras is ~72K and does not cost anything. Then the Attacks looks like -2,-2,-7,-12,-17 from full bow attack bonus which is something like BAB + Dex +5 (high level Arcan Archer) + 2 (WF and GWF) is Dex is ~22 this becomes BAB +13 An extra +2 to hit from Bracers of Archery (Greater) makes it BAB +15 for attacks of BAB+13, BAB+13, BAB+8, BAB+3, BAB-2 Which FAIRLY might be expected to generate 3 "hits" per round for 3 x (1d8+5+(Strength Bonus) 5d6)=3d8+15+15d6+3xStrength If Strength Bonus is +3 (for a reasonable example at such a level) then the average (to a single target with no SR but energy resistance/immunity or DR will reduce it quickly) becomes ~90 - not bad, but still not overwhelming. SR is more a problem for Wizards, but Energy Immunity/resistance can really drop DIRECT Damage, so a Wizard has to be cognizant of what sort of opponents need what spells and then BE PREPARED for those opponents. A slight cost increase would be to have +1 Bane arrows for the Archer (though 2d6 for 360 GP a shot is kind of steep before Epic levels) the damage also does not include Critical hits which can be a factor in a particular combat. I have seen a case where the party archer (not an Arcane Archer) managed to inflict (with two timely criticals, a +3 Bow, Strength 14 and Precise Shot + some bonus I'm having trouble recalling) around 100 HP damage in a single round against a Large dragon which was grappling with the party Melee specialist. That was decisive. And Fun.
Garonak 04-10-07, 04:14 PM	Just a note: BAB never changes (except with lvl up of course), attack modifiers change.