Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Adain 08-16-05, 02:15 PM	Hello, thank you for your time. I'm sure something like this has been done before, but please bear with me. The purpose of this base class is to provide an unarmed fighter class that does not follow the regimented training that monks do. Rather, think of it more like a street brawler, a kick boxer, or a wrestler. This class is to be part of my campaign, so I would appreciate any comments or constructive criticism. Especially welcome is well-constructed analysis of the balance of this class. BRAWLER Some warriors train with the sword and shield, others with a battle axe. Others still train with their bare bodies, learning to wreak incredible damage without the aid of weapons. The wiry bare fist bar fighter, the husky bear wrestler, and the self-styled kickboxing street fighter - all are examples of the brawler. http://wrexsoul.salamando.net/indent.gifThough many would compare brawlers to monks who also study unarmed martial arts, important distinctions exist. While monks achieve their abilities through years of rigid, organized training, brawlers tend to be self-taught, or learn from traveling masters in their own style. In many ways, brawlers resemble barbarians more than monks, and indeed many regions that produce barbarians are likely to produce a good number of brawlers as well. Adventures: Many brawlers, having developed their skills personally, see an adventure as a chance to prove themselves and their abilities. Challenges a brawler faces tend to pressure them to refine their ability even more, and to master their bare fighting capability. Brawlers, as a side product of their unique stance toward fighting, tend to have a fearless, headfirst attitude toward the dangers presented by adventuring. Also, unlike monks, many brawlers have no qualms with fighting for money, and welcome the wealth brought on by taking an odd job or great risk. Alignment: There are no hard and fast rules for brawlers, and they come with all possible outlooks on life. Lawful brawlers may train under a master or in a guild organized around a particular school, while chaotic ones may wander aimlessly, creating their own style through personal encounters and experiences. Religion: Brawlers who choose to follow a god often worships one that reflects their own ambitions and goals. Kord (god of strength), St. Cuthbert (god of retribution), and Erythnul (god of slaughter) are all likely candidates, though a brawler with personal interests might just as easily choose any other. Still others prefer not to be tied down by religion at all, rather just following their own hearts. Background: Brawlers come from all walks of life, though it is more likely that those who are impoverished, perhaps too poor to even afford a weapon, would be tempted to learn to fight with their bodies alone. Some are local boxing or wrestling champions, who then strike out for the next greater fight. Others learn their skills from another brawler, Often, a would-be brawler picks a fight with the wrong person and suffers a humiliating defeat, or watches an incredible battle between a brawler against armed combatants. Approaching these masters, they learn the basics of unarmed combat. They may stay with a master for a while, or strike out on their own to develop their own, unique style. Races: Human brawlers are often either poor and self-styled local street fighters, or students of a particular school of fighting. Dwarven brawlers are typically local wrestling champions. Many halflings are bare fist boxers, and learn quick styles of tumbling and dodging opponents' large, clumsy attacks. Half-orcs make particularly good brawlers with their powerful builds. Elves, half-elves, and gnomes tend to not become brawlers, though one might see the style as an amusing alternative to messy weapons. Other classes: Brawlers often work well with people who are willing to accept and respect their unusual styles. Fighters, rangers, rogues and barbarians make particularly good companions, while some clerics and wizards might find the brawler's mentality savage. Ironically, brawlers and monks both admire and detest each other. For their unarmed prowess, they share a mutual respect, but the differences in attitude are often irreconcilable. Most brawlers hold no ill will toward other classes, as long as they can prove themselves valuable. Role: For their ability to dish out punishment, a brawler fills the same spot a fighter or barbarian might. However, as they are unable to wear armor, and don't have the same natural insight that monks have into dodging attacks, many brawlers end up taking more hits than others. This might make them favorable in front line positions, drawing hits from weaker classes, but at the same time, this might make them too fragile to send out into any situation. Still, with their straightforward combat strategy, most brawlers do not fill auxiliary support roles well. GAME RULE INFORMATION Brawlers have the following game statistics. Abilities: Strength is necessary for brawlers in order to deal more damage. It also affects their ability to hit and grapple opponents. Because they cannot wear armor, dexterity is important, and nimble brawlers often favor it over strength. Constitution helps a brawler survive longer, so it is obviously welcomed. Intelligence and Wisdom are favored primarily only for the bonus to skills. Alignment: Any. Hit Die: d10. Random Starting Gold:: 2d4 × 5 (25 gp) Class Skills The brawler’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Profession (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex). See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player's Handbook for skill descriptions. Skill points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) × 4. Skill points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier. Class Features All of the following are class features of the brawler. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Brawlers are proficient with simple weapons, though most of the brawler's key abilities require that they be unarmed. A brawler may use a gauntlet (or various identical alternatives - brass knuckles, reinforced gloves, etc.) and still use an unarmed attack. Brawlers are not proficient with any armor or shields— in fact, many of the brawler's special abilities can only be used when unarmored. TABLE 1-1: THE BRAWLER Class Base Fort Ref Will Unarmed AC Lvl Attack Bonus Save Save Save Special Damage¹ Bonus 1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Combat Expertise, unarmed strike 1d6 +0 2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Uncanny dodge 1d6 +0 3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Combat style 1d6 +0 4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Bonus feat 1d8 +0 5th +5 +4 +4 +1 Improved uncanny dodge 1d8 +1 6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Power Attack 1d8 +1 7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Improved combat style 1d8 +1 8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Bonus feat 1d10 +1 9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Soak damage 1 1d10 +1 10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 Greater Combat Expertise 1d10 +2 11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 Tireless stamina 1d10 +2 12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 Combat style mastery, bonus feat 2d6 +2 13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 Soak damage 3 2d6 +2 14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +4 Defensive Roll 2d6 +2 15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +5 2d6 +3 16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +5 Bonus Feat 2d8 +3 17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Soak damage 5 2d8 +3 18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Burst of Speed 2d8 +3 19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 2d8 +3 20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 Bonus Feat 2d10 +4 1 The value shown is for Medium brawlers. See Table 1-2: Small or Large Brawler Unarmed Damage for Small or Large brawlers. AC Bonus (Ex): Through countless fights unarmed and unarmored, a brawler gains a sixth sense in combat that lets him dodge even unanticipated attacks. When unarmored and unencumbered, the brawler gains the AC bonus listed in Table 1-1: The Brawler. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when the brawler is flat footed. He loses this bonus when he is immobilized or helpless, or when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium load. A brawler who multiclasses as a monk does not gain this bonus. Instead, he adds his brawler levels to his monk levels for purposes of determining his unarmored AC Bonus. Unarmed Strike: A brawler specializes in fighting unarmed, and gains several advantages while doing so. At 1st level, a brawler gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A brawler's attacks may be with either fist, interchangeably, or even from elbows, knees, feet, or head butts. This means a brawler may even make attacks with his hands full. there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a brawler striking unarmed. A brawler may thus apply his full Strength bonus on all damage rolls for all his unarmed attacks. http://wrexsoul.salamando.net/indent.gifUsually a brawler's unarmed strikes deal for lethal damage, but he may choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling (see Player's Handbook page 156). A brawler's unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purposed of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells). http://wrexsoul.salamando.net/indent.gifA brawler also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table 1-1: The Brawler. The unarmed damage on Table 1-1 is for Medium brawlers. A Small brawler deals less damage than the amount given there with his unarmed attacks, while a Large brawler deals more damage; see Table 1-2: Small or Large Brawler Unarmed Damage. http://wrexsoul.salamando.net/indent.gifA brawler may treat equipping a gauntlet as both wielding a weapon and as an unarmed strike. A brawler using a gauntlet as a weapon uses his own unarmed damage as shown on Table 1-1, but gains any enhancement bonus and special properties of the gauntlet equipped. Magically enchanted gauntlets, or gauntlets made of special materials allow a brawler's unarmed strike to penetrate damage reduction of those types. http://wrexsoul.salamando.net/indent.gifHere the term "gauntlet" is used, but really, this can be any reinforced covering for the hands, or even legs and feet (for example, brass knuckles, a reinforced glove, metal shin guards, etc.). A gauntlet can be used for any of a brawler's attacks, but obviously it can only be worn on one hand (or leg) at a time. Thus a brawler wearing multiple gauntlets may choose between any of them, or an arm or leg not equipping a gauntlet for each attack he makes, interchangeably. http://wrexsoul.salamando.net/indent.gifBrawler and monk levels stack for the purposes of determining unarmed damage. A brawler who multiclasses as a monk determines his unarmed damage by adding his brawler levels to his monk levels and then referring to Table 1-1. TABLE 1-2: SMALL OR LARGE BRAWLER UNARMED DAMAGE Level Damage (Small Brawler) Damage (Large Brawler) 1st-3rd 1d4 1d8 4th-7th 1d6 2d6 8th-11th 1d8 2d8 12th-15th 1d10 3d6 16th-19th 2d6 3d8 20th 2d8 4d6 Combat Expertise: At 1st level, a brawler gains the Combat Expertise feat if he does not already have it, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. If the brawler already has Combat Expertise, he may instead gain a bonus feat from the brawler bonus feat list (see below). Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a brawler gains the ability to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. When wearing any armor or using a shield, a brawler loses the benefit of this ability. If a brawler already has uncanny dodge from a different class (a brawler with at least four levels of rogue, for example), he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead. A brawler loses the benefits this ability when he is wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load. Combat Style (Ex): At 3rd level, a brawler must select one of three combat styles to pursue: skirmish style, wrestling style, or hard fist style. This choice affects the character's class features but does not restrict his selection of feats or special abilities in any way. Consult Table 1-3: Brawler Combat Styles to see what abilities a brawler gets from his chosen combat style. If the brawler selects skirmish style, he gains Skirmish (+1d6) (see below). If the brawler selects wrestling style, he gains Improved Grapple, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. http://wrexsoul.salamando.net/indent.gifIf the brawler selects hard fist style, he gains Stunning Fist, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. A brawler who selects hard fist style treats his brawler levels as monk levels for the purpose of determining stunning attempts per day. In other words, he may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his brawler level, plus once per day for every monk level he has, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than brawler or monk. http://wrexsoul.salamando.net/indent.gifThe benefit of the brawler's chosen style applies only when he wears no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style when wearing any armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load. TABLE 1-3: COMBAT STYLE ABILITIES GAINED Level Skirmish Style Wrestling Style Hard Fist Style 3 Skirmish (+1d6) Improved Grapple Stunning Fist 7 Skirmish (+2d6, +1 AC) Slippery Opponent Brute Strength 12 Skirmish (+3d6, +2 AC) Powerful Build Knockout Punch Skirmish (Ex): A brawler who chooses the skirmish style relies on mobility to deal extra damage and improve his attack. He deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks he makes during any round in which he moves at least 10 feet. The extra damage applies only to attacks taken during the brawler's turn. This extra damage increases by 1d6 when the brawler gains Improved Combat Style at 7th level, and again when he gains Combat Style Mastery at 12th level. http://wrexsoul.salamando.net/indent.gifThe extra damage only applies against living creatures that have a discernable anatomy. Undead, constructs, oozes, plants, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits are not vulnerable to this additional damage. The brawler must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. This damage only applies to unarmed attacks performed by the brawler. http://wrexsoul.salamando.net/indent.gifAt 7th level, a brawler who has chosen skirmish style gains a +1 competence bonus to Armor Class during any round in which he moves at least 10 feet. The bonus applies as soon as the brawler has moved 10 feet, and lasts until the start of his next turn. This bonus improves by 1 when the brawler gets Combat Style Mastery at 12th level. As with all combat styles, this ability cannot be used when the brawler is wearing any armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load. If the brawler gains the skirmish ability from another class, the bonuses stack. Bonus Feat: At 4th level, and every 4 levels after (8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th), a brawler gets a bonus feat, which must be selected from the following list: Blindfight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Diehard, Dodge, Endurance, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Run, Spring Attack, Toughness, Weapon Finesse. He must meet all the prerequisites for the feat. Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a brawler can no longer be flanked; he can react to opponents on opposite sides of him as easily as he can react to a single attacker. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the brawler by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has brawler levels. http://wrexsoul.salamando.net/indent.gifIf a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character. A brawler loses the benefits this ability when he is wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load. Power Attack: At 6th level, a brawler gains the Power Attack feat if he does not already have it, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. If the brawler already has Power Attack, he may instead gain a bonus feat from the brawler bonus feat list (see above). Improved Combat Style (Ex): At 7th level, a brawler's aptitude in his chosen combat style (skirmish style, wrestling style, or hard fist style) improves. If he selected skirmish style at 3rd level, his skirmish damage improves by 1d6 and his skirmish AC goes up by 1 (see Table 1-3). If the brawler selected wrestling style, he gains Slippery Opponent (see below). If the brawler selected hard fist style, he gains Brute Strength (see below). http://wrexsoul.salamando.net/indent.gifAs before, the benefit of the brawler's chosen style applies only when he wears no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style when wearing any armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load. Slippery Opponent (Ex): A brawler of at least 7th level who selects wrestling style gains greater mobility while grappling opponents. By slippery twists and wriggling around his enemy, he gains an advantage against outside combatants. He no longer loses his Dexterity bonus to opponents he is not grappling. Furthermore, if he is grappling an opponent at most one size category smaller than himself, if he is occupying the same square as that opponent, he is treated as having cover for all attacks by creatures other than his grappling opponent. The normal 50% chance of hitting each opponent still applies, however, if an attack misses due to cover, the attack hits his opponent instead (assuming the attack roll beats his opponent's AC). http://wrexsoul.salamando.net/indent.gifFor example, Bartok (AC 15), a human brawler, is wrestling with Dogfish, a half-orc barbarian (AC 17). Daridane shoots an arrow at Bartok. First, Daridane rolls to determine his 50% chance of hitting his intended target (unless he has Improved Precise Shot). He succeeds at hitting his desired target (Bartok), and so he makes his attack roll. His total attack roll is a 17, which would hit Bartok (AC 15), except that Bartok gains a +4 AC bonus from cover granted by his grappling opponent, Dogfish. Thus the attack actually hits Dogfish, because it beats Dogfish's AC of 17. This also works when a character attacks the wrong target. For instance, if Daridane were intending to shoot Dogfish, but missed his 50% chance of hitting the correct target (thus aiming for Bartok), under this scenario he would have still hit Dogfish. Brute Strength (Ex): A practitioner of the hard fist style gains the ability to put extra power in his unarmed attacks. At 7th level, a brawler who selected hard fist style can treat any of his unarmed attacks as a two-handed weapon. Normally, unarmed attacks count as light weapons. Two-handed weapons deal 1½ Strength bonus as damage on each attack, and deal extra damage with Power Attack. A brawler may still use any hand interchangeably for each attack, as well as legs. Despite being counted as a two-handed weapon, his unarmed attacks still only require one limb for each attack. A brawler experiences none of the disadvantages usually associated with using a two-handed weapon in one hand, and may still treat his unarmed attacks as light weapons. Soak Damage (Ex): Through constant training of his body, a brawler learns ways to take blows such that they are less fatal. Starting at 9th level, each time the brawler takes lethal damage, up to one point of that damage is taken as nonlethal damage instead. This ability increases to 3 points converted at 13th level, and 5 points at 17th level. This ability can never convert more lethal damage to nonlethal than the initial amount of lethal damage received for each hit. Greater Combat Expertise (Ex): Fighting without the benefit of armor, a brawler needs to hone his defensive fighting skills in order to survive. A brawler of 10th level learns better how to deflect blows while retaining his accuracy. When using Combat Expertise, a brawler doubles the dodge bonus to AC provided by the feat. Thus if a brawler taking an attack action or full attack action takes a -5 penalty to all attacks for a round, he adds a +10 dodge bonus to AC until their next round. Furthermore, a brawler may now take a penalty of as much as -10 for his attack when using Combat Expertise. A brawler loses the benefit of Greater Combat Expertise whenever he wears any armor, uses a shield, or has a medium or heavy load. Tireless Stamina (Ex): At 11th level, a brawler learns to recover from physical trauma at a rate much faster than others. He gains Fast Healing 1, except that this ability will only remove nonlethal damage, not hit point loss due to lethal damage. See page 293 of the Dungeon Master's Guide for information on Fast Healing. Combat Style Mastery (Ex): At 12th level, a brawler's aptitude in his chosen style (skirmish style, wrestling style, or hard fist style) improves again. If he selected skirmish style at 3rd level, his skirmish damage increases by another 1d6, and his skirmish AC bonus increases by 1. If the brawler selected wrestling style, he gains the Powerful Build ability (see below). If the brawler selected the hard fist style, he gains the Knockout Punch ability (see below). http://wrexsoul.salamando.net/indent.gifAs before, the benefit of the brawler's chosen style applies only when he wears no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style when wearing any armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load. Powerful Build (Ex): Through rigorous training, a brawler of 12th level who choose to pursue the wrestling style develops techniques that allow him to function in ways that belie his physical build. In many ways, this allows the brawler to be considered as if he were one size category larger. Whenever a brawler is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the brawler is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. The brawler is also treated as one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. However, his unarmed strike damage, space, and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this ability stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category. Knockout Punch (Ex): At 12th level, a brawler trained in the hard fist style learns to do a devastating attack that can render his opponent unconscious. Once per day, as a standard action, a brawler who selected hard fist style may spend a stunning fist attempt to attempt a knockout attack. The use of this ability must be declared before the attack roll, and failure still consumes the use per day of this ability and the Stunning Fist attempt. When using this ability, the brawler must take a Power Attack penalty on his attack roll of at least -5. The brawler then makes an unarmed strike against his opponent, dealing nonlethal damage. If the attack is successful, his opponent must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC = 5 + 1/2 the brawler’s Hit Dice + Brawler’s Str modifier + Power Attack modifier). If his opponent fails this save, the victim immediately becomes unconscious (even if his nonlethal damage does not exceed his remaining hit points) for a number of rounds = (1d6 + 1/2 the brawler's hit dice + Power Attack modifier) (the Power Attack modifier is equal to the penalty taken on the attack, not the total damage bonus). Even if the opponent makes his save, he is still dazed for one round and takes the nonlethal damage. http://wrexsoul.salamando.net/indent.gifThough this ability is called Knockout Punch, this may actually be a kick or any other natural attack available to the brawler. This ability cannot be used against living creatures that have a discernable anatomy. Undead, constructs, oozes, plants, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits are not vulnerable to this attack. The brawler must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. This ability only works when used with an unarmed attack performed by the brawler, and only when he is not wearing armor, not using a shield, and not carrying a medium or heavy load. Defensive Roll (Ex): At 14th level, a brawler learns to roll with an otherwise fatal blow to take less damage than he would have. Once per day, when he would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or natural attack, not from a spell or other ability), a brawler can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, a brawler must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, he takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, he takes full damage. He must be aware of the attack and be able to react to it in order to execute his defensive roll— if he is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, he can't use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a save for half damage, a brawler with the evasion ability (such as from rogue levels) may not apply that ability to the defensive roll. A brawler may only use this ability when he is not wearing armor, not using a shield, and not carrying a medium or heavy load. Burst of Speed (Ex): Through physical mastery of their bodies, brawlers learn how to force momentary bursts of speed when necessary. Starting at 18th level, as a swift action, a brawler may take an extra movement action that round. Taking a full round’s worth of attacks and then using this power to move away from your foe does provoke attacks of opportunity. A player may only use one swift action per round, and this power may only be activated on the brawler's turn. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to the brawler's Constitution bonus (minimum 1/day). A brawler may only use this ability when he is not wearing armor, not using a shield, and not carrying a medium or heavy load. Material for this class came from the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Complete Adventurer (skirmish), and Races of Stone (powerful build).
Adain 08-16-05, 02:15 PM	Possible balancing changes: Remove all bonus feats Reduce the unarmed damage to 3/4 or 2/3 (Not likely?) FAQ Should brawlers be able to use Improved Natural Attack? I say yes, but I would leave that up to the DM. Whatever they decide is the case for monks should be the same for brawlers. Should brawlers do more damage if they have existing natural attacks? I say no, but again, this should be up to the DM. Brawlers already get an increase in damage dice for their attacks, and it's my opinion that this should overwrite the damage of their other natural attacks (use whichever is higher). As a house rule, you could allow natural attacks (a claw on a kick, for example) to deal their damage in addition to the unarmed damage listed, or one step down (to represent the shift in training). Another house rule could be to keep whichever damage die is larger, and simply use that natural attack's damage type (piercing, slashing, etc.). Either way, savage spieces are not core rules, and so you will have to deal with how to implement them yourself. I only contend that whatever you choose should be consistent with your DM's choice for monk's unarmed strike. If you want extra damage for one class, it should be used for all unarmed classes. How about guantlets? They shouldn't count according to RAW rules. This class makes special exceptions for the guantlet. Just like a monk can use special monk weapons for their ablities, brawlers can use guantlets for their ablities. Furthermore, they use their unarmed damage dice for guantlets. Consider this a brawler special ability. Is it balanced? I don't know. It grants an alternative to the expensive Amulet of Mighty Fists. (some ability) seems supernatural. Monks are supernatural. All of these abilities are extraordinary. They are all easily justified and realistic. None of them rely on any powers that are outside of the possible realms of physical possibility. People in real life could perfectly emulate this class. Furthermore, a large number of monk abilities many people excuse as "supernatural" are in fact only extraordinary. This includes AC bonus (think insight), unarmed damage (martial art techniques), slow fall (tumbling, wall grabbing), body perfection (subconscious control and enlightenment through spiritual training, it is not supernatural and people do some of these things), etc. Basically, if it's (Ex) in the PHB, it's not (Su). These terms have meanings.
tiluvias99 08-17-05, 06:27 PM	hmm, quite interesting, its very well thought out. Looks like you put a lot of thought into it, good job. I like the flavor. few people who try to make their own martial artist classes even bother to write anything. now, onto your abilities: AC Bonus (Ex): Through countless fights unarmed and unarmored, a brawler gains a sixth sense in combat that lets him dodge even unanticipated attacks. When unarmored and unencumbered, the brawler gains the AC bonus listed in Table 1-1: The Brawler. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when the brawler is flat footed. He loses this bonus when he is immobilized or helpless, or when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium load. A brawler who multiclasses as a monk does not gain this bonus. Instead, he adds his brawler levels to his monk levels for purposes of determining his unarmored AC Bonus.this ability doesn't seem to fit with the other abilities that I see. From what I can tell, you're trying to make this class completely non-magical, and trying to represent real-world fighters in doing so. This ability is supernatural. first off, your talking about a sixth sense. secondly, its removed when he wears armor. Its true that armor would restrict your movement slightly (giving you a lower AC), but that is represented through maximum dexterity bonus. and thirdly, by the monk multi-class option you posted, it appears they are the same bonus, and the monk's is definitely supernatural. I suggest you give them a level based dodge bonus, but unlike other dodge, bonuses, it is just added to their dexterity bonus to AC. that way, flavor-wise, it means that the armor is restricting your movement (and lowering your AC) instead off cutting off your chi. Also, this means that a brawler could fight with a shield and still keep his level based AC bonus. A shield can be very handy in combat, and if your trained in its use, then it doesn't restrict your movement.A brawler may treat equipping a gauntlet as both wielding a weapon and as an unarmed strike. A brawler using a gauntlet as a weapon uses his own unarmed damage as shown on Table 1-1, but gains any enhancement bonus and special properties of the gauntlet equipped. Magically enchanted gauntlets, or gauntlets made of special materials allow a brawler's unarmed strike to penetrate damage reduction of those types. Here the term "gauntlet" is used, but really, this can be any reinforced covering for the hands, or even legs and feet (for example, brass knuckles, a reinforced glove, metal shin guards, etc.). A gauntlet can be used for any of a brawler's attacks, but obviously it can only be worn on one hand (or leg) at a time. Thus a brawler wearing multiple gauntlets may choose between any of them, or an arm or leg not equipping a gauntlet for each attack he makes, interchangeably.good rules to put in, that way you dont have to worry about the same rules lawyering as you do with the monk. It seems quite similar to the way I described it in my Martial Artist class, the Bando Warrior, but I included natural weapons as well. you might want to consider those as well (like what happens when a martial artist kicks when he already has a natural attack with his legs. should he deal more damage?).A brawler's unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purposed of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells).I don't get this. You specifically put in rules to eliminate the controversy and rules lawyering of monks and gauntlets, but you didn't do the same for this rule. There are huge debates going on currently on the real meaning of this rule, and how it applies to things like Improved Natural Attack. while I can see reason to just keep it like the monk and let DMs interpret it the same way for both classes in their games, I would suggest writing out exactly what you mean and bypassing all of the rules discussions.A brawler also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table 1-1: The Brawler. The unarmed damage on Table 1-1 is for Medium brawlers. A Small brawler deals less damage than the amount given there with his unarmed attacks, while a Large brawler deals more damage; see Table 1-2: Small or Large Brawler Unarmed Damage.... Brawler and monk levels stack for the purposes of determining unarmed damage. A brawler who multiclasses as a monk determines his unarmed damage by adding his brawler levels to his monk levels and then referring to Table 1-1.same issue as with the AC bonus. increasing base damage can only be done with size increases or (in the monk's case) chi. The monk has a higher base damage die with his unarmed attacks because of his internal energy and enlightenment, which a street brawler won't have. Now its obvious that someone trained in unarmed fighting will deal more damage,, but you should represent this in a different way. If their higher damage comes from training, then add a flat bonus to their damage (think weapon specialization). 1d3 + 1/2 levels works out to about the same average damage as a monk, but has an entirely different flavor attached to it. If their higher damage comes from striking opponents in weak spots, then you should give them sneak attack dice, or something similar. Or you could do a combination of these two ideas. If you really want to get into it, read the link in my sig on the justification for a monk's unarmed damage. for your bonus feat list, why didn't you include the TWF chain? its normally a key feat chain for unarmed fighters and monks. For balance, I'm going to compare this to a fighter. Yeah, the fighter might be a little underpowered, but it still works out as a good balancer anyways. besides, it a lot better for new classes to be under-powered instead of over powered. what does a fighter lose: -martial weapon proficiency -light armor proficiency -medium armor proficiency -heavy armor proficiency -6 bonus feats of choosing -a cheap armor bonus to AC (full plate or the like instead of bracers of armor) -a cheap shield bonus to AC (heavy shield or the like) what does a fighter gain: -a siginificantly better skill list -a good reflex save, totalling a +6 bonus over the fighter -a level based bonus to AC. -an unsunderable, undisarmable, finessable, two-handed weapon that he can take anywhere, automatically hide from any guard, that deals more damage than any other weapon, and can still be enchanted. you have no idea how useful this can be. especially since, it being a two-handed weapon, it gains massive bonuses to disraming or sundering opponent's weapons and can be used excellently with power attack. And still gains all these bonuses even when used as an off-hand weapon. This is powerful. -Combat Expertise Bonus feat (feat count=1) -Uncanny Dodge -Combat Style -Improved Uncanny Dodge -Power attack Bonus Feat (feat count=2) -Improved Combat Style -Damage Reduction: yeah I know this only converts it to non-lethal, but when combined with the fast healing, it pretty much is DR. -Greater Combat Expertise: This is incredibly useful, and the increased cap is even better. -combat style mastery -Defensive Roll -Hustle: this allows movement+full attack. So, basically, I'm only losing 4 bonus feats and some proficiencies because your giving away Power Attack and CE. Do you think that list is anywhere near balanced? no way. You need to tone it down a lot, I suggest you try starting with one class and then replacing abilities with your own abilities of equal power. Its a really well thought out class, but its more than a little too strong. Anyways, you might want to check out my martial artist class, in my sig. You might be able to get some ideas from it. hope this helps tiluvias99
Nephlite 08-17-05, 10:06 PM	Hello, thank you for your time. I'm sure something like this has been done before, but please bear with me. The purpose of this base class is to provide an unarmed fighter class that does not follow the regimented training that monks do. Rather, think of it more like a street brawler, a kick boxer, or a wrestler. This class is to be part of my campaign, so I would appreciate any comments or constructive criticism. Especially welcome is well-constructed analysis of the balance of this class. I like the class flavor. Your is a unarmed unamored fighter though. You aren't just unarmed fighter. A Pugilist class (I made one) is a armor wearing unarmed fighter. So by not mentioning that fact you surprised me. But I like it so far. Alignment: Any. Hit Die: d10. The brawler’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Profession (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex). See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player's Handbook for skill descriptions. Skill points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) × 4. Skill points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier. So few skill points? All of the following are class features of the brawler. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Brawlers are proficient with simple weapons, though most of the brawler's key abilities require that they be unarmed. A brawler may use a gauntlet (or various identical alternatives - brass knuckles, reinforced gloves, etc.) and still use an unarmed attack. Brawlers are not proficient with any armor or shields— in fact, many of the brawler's special abilities can only be used when unarmored. I agree guantlets should count as unarmed strike. I'm glad you gave Simple weapon proficiency and didn't fall into trap of not giving proficiecy of unarmed strike like a Monk forgot to. AC Bonus (Ex): Through countless fights unarmed and unarmored, a brawler gains a sixth sense in combat that lets him dodge even unanticipated attacks. When unarmored and unencumbered, the brawler gains the AC bonus listed in Table 1-1: The Brawler. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when the brawler is flat footed. He loses this bonus when he is immobilized or helpless, or when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium load. A brawler who multiclasses as a monk does not gain this bonus. Instead, he adds his brawler levels to his monk levels for purposes of determining his unarmored AC Bonus. Why does he lose it when wearing a shield? I understand no armor but why shield restriction? One reason for monks is they get Wisdom to AC, you don't. I feel this restriction is not needed for your guy. I do have a issue for Unarmed Damage why so high? I know Monks get it, but Monks are Supernatural. Explain your unarmed strike damage please? Combat Expertise: At 1st level, a brawler gains the Combat Expertise feat if he does not already have it, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. If the brawler already has Combat Expertise, he may instead gain a bonus feat from the brawler bonus feat list (see below). Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a brawler gains the ability to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. When wearing any armor or using a shield, a brawler loses the benefit of this ability. If a brawler already has uncanny dodge from a different class (a brawler with at least four levels of rogue, for example), he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead. A brawler loses the benefits this ability when he is wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load. I like these, they fit. Skirmish (Ex): A brawler who chooses the skirmish style relies on mobility to deal extra damage and improve his attack. He deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks he makes during any round in which he moves at least 10 feet. The extra damage applies only to attacks taken during the brawler's turn. This extra damage increases by 1d6 when the brawler gains Improved Combat Style at 7th level, and again when he gains Combat Style Mastery at 12th level. I like this ability it meshes well with the type of style. Power Attack: At 6th level, a brawler gains the Power Attack feat if he does not already have it, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. If the brawler already has Power Attack, he may instead gain a bonus feat from the brawler bonus feat list (see above). Be strange to find a Brawler at level 6 with 12 strength only, but this does mean even if he has Ray of Enfeelble or fatigued cast on him he can use it because he can get it without the Prerequisites. Brute Strength (Ex): A practitioner of the hard fist style gains the ability to put extra power in his unarmed attacks. At 7th level, a brawler who selected hard fist style can treat any of his unarmed attacks as a two-handed weapon. Normally, unarmed attacks count as light weapons. Two-handed weapons deal 1½ Strength bonus as damage on each attack, and deal extra damage with Power Attack. A brawler may still use any hand interchangeably for each attack, as well as legs. Despite being counted as a two-handed weapon, his unarmed attacks still only require one limb for each attack. Whoa so this counts for Disarm attempts to? Great abiliity. Soak Damage (Ex): Through constant training of his body, a brawler learns ways to take blows such that they are less fatal. Starting at 9th level, each time the brawler takes lethal damage, up to one point of that damage is taken as nonlethal damage instead. This ability increases to 3 points converted at 13th level, and 5 points at 17th level. This ability can never convert more lethal damage to nonlethal than the initial amount of lethal damage received for each hit. This emulates Stand Tough ability from Street Fighter Prc in Complete Adventurer. Though the mechanics aren't copied at least. I think it seems okay. Greater Combat Expertise (Ex): Fighting without the benefit of armor, a brawler needs to hone his defensive fighting skills in order to survive. A brawler of 10th level learns better how to deflect blows while retaining his accuracy. When using Combat Expertise, a brawler doubles the dodge bonus to AC provided by the feat. Thus if a brawler takes a -5 penalty to all attacks for a round, he adds a +10 dodge bonus to AC. Furthermore, a brawler may now take a penalty of as much as -10 for his attack when using Combat Expertise. A brawler loses the benefit of Greater Combat Expertise whenever he wears any armor, uses a shield, or has a medium or heavy load. I like it. It helps the guy survive since he normally has low AC. But this means he can get at level 10: a -10 hit to add +20 Dodge bonus to AC? Yes, he will barely hit anything but he will have awesome AC for that turn. I can see this a good enough ability to want to take Bralwer for a Defensive guy. Tireless Stamina (Ex): At 11th level, a brawler learns to recover from physical trauma at a rate much faster than others. He gains Fast Healing 1, except that this ability will only remove nonlethal damage, not hit point loss due to lethal damage. See page 293 of the Dungeon Master's Guide for information on Fast Healing. Fast Nonlethal Healing 1? This combines well with soak damage. This would also help you defeat my Pugilist (he gains bonus nonlethal damage hehe). But bravo since this is'nt too strong in general. Knockout Punch (Ex): At 12th level, a brawler trained in the hard fist style learns to do a devastating attack that can render his opponent unconscious. Once per day, as a standard action, a brawler who selected hard fist style may spend a stunning fist attempt to attempt a knockout attack. The use of this ability must be declared before the attack roll, and failure still consumes the use per day of this ability and the Stunning Fist attempt. When using this ability, the brawler must take a Power Attack penalty on his attack roll of at least -5. The brawler then makes an unarmed strike against his opponent, dealing nonlethal damage. If the attack is successful, his opponent must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC = damage received). If his opponent fails this save, the victim immediately becomes unconscious (even if his nonlethal damage does not exceed his remaining hit points) for a number of rounds = (1d6 + Strength bonus + Power Attack modifier) (the Power Attack modifier is equal to the penalty taken on the attack, not the total damage bonus). Even if the opponent makes his save, he is still dazed for one round. Though this ability is called Knockout Punch, this may actually be a kick or any other natural attack available to the brawler. Very powerful, though it is 1/day so I guess it isn't too strong as it seems. Defensive Roll (Ex): At 14th level, a brawler learns to roll with an otherwise fatal blow to take less damage than he would have. Once per day, when he would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or natural attack, not from a spell or other ability), a brawler can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, a brawler must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, he takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, he takes full damage. He must be aware of the attack and be able to react to it in order to execute his defensive roll— if he is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, he can't use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a save for half damage, a brawler with the evasion ability (such as from rogue levels) may not apply that ability to the defensive roll. A brawler may only use this ability when he is not wearing armor, not using a shield, and not carrying a medium or heavy load. Love this idea; Rogues shouldn't be only rollers! Hustle (Ex): Through physical mastery of their bodies, brawlers learn how to force momentary bursts of speed when necessary. Starting at 18th level, once per round, as a free action, a brawler may take an extra movement action that round. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to the brawler's Constitution bonus (minimum 1/day). A brawler may only use this ability when he is not wearing armor, not using a shield, and not carrying a medium or heavy load. So this helps a Skirmishing Brawler make full attacks, eh?
Adain 08-18-05, 01:28 AM	hmm, quite interesting, its very well thought out. Looks like you put a lot of thought into it, good job. I like the flavor. few people who try to make their own martial artist classes even bother to write anything. Thank you very much, your comments shed some important perspective on this class. I highly appreciate your time and consideration on the mechanics. now, onto your abilities: this ability (AC bonus) doesn't seem to fit with the other abilities that I see. From what I can tell, you're trying to make this class completely non-magical, and trying to represent real-world fighters in doing so. This ability is supernatural. first off, your talking about a sixth sense. This is simply not true. Trained combatants can gain a cognative insight into combat simply through experience. This insight, while it is referred to as a sixth sense, is not occult or supernatural at all; it simply represents unconscious conditioning on the part of the warrior. If nothing else, I can rewrite the description that this AC bonus is gained through training and experience rather than a sixth sense, but that shouldn't change the mechanics. secondly, its removed when he wears armor. Its true that armor would restrict your movement slightly (giving you a lower AC), but that is represented through maximum dexterity bonus. This AC bonus represents training done strictly without armor. The kind of reaction required to perform the dodges would be nullified if one wears armor. While I appreciate where you're coming from, I must disagree for two reasons: 1. Letting them get an AC bonus AND wear armor would not only destroy the theme of the class, but make it unbalanced as well. If I don't make severe disadvantages for wearing any armor, there would be some sort of number crunching that would allow significant stacking advantages. Especially in this case, the AC bonus is given because they cannot wear armor. Letting these abilities stack would be unacceptable. 2. This ability parallels the monk AC bonus, except that the brawler does not get the wisdom bonus. Would you allow a monk to wear armor too, even if his dex and wisdom bonus capped? Not likely. and thirdly, by the monk multi-class option you posted, it appears they are the same bonus, and the monk's is definitely supernatural. No, again consider my above points for monks too. Just because it says "sixth sense," it is entirely extraordinary. For one, that's why they have (Ex) after the entry in the Player's Handbook. Anything even remotely supernatural would be (Su). I suggest you give them a level based dodge bonus, but unlike other dodge, bonuses, it is just added to their dexterity bonus to AC. that way, flavor-wise, it means that the armor is restricting your movement (and lowering your AC) instead off cutting off your chi. I'll note that chi (to be thematically consistant, Ki) is not mentioned anywhere in the monk descriptions for either uarmed attack or unarmed strike. Secondly, that would be unbalancing, because it would allow people to get an artificially high dodge bonus AND an armor bonus. Even if their dodge bonus gets capped out, that just means players will put points into str or con (for example) rather than dex and get the same benefit. Also, this means that a brawler could fight with a shield and still keep his level based AC bonus. A shield can be very handy in combat, and if your trained in its use, then it doesn't restrict your movement. No matter how good one is at using a shield, it still encumbers your movement. You're going around with a plank of wood strapped to your arm, which, in addition to having a weight issue, free movement of that arm is imaired, thus reducing one's ability to move and dodge effectively. Also, as with wearing armor, it's a simple balance issue. They get other means for defense (dodge bonus, combat expertise) because they cannot use a shield. Also, it's just not thematically consistant. An unarmed fighter will be using his whole body effectively, not someone who punches from behind a shield. (in regards to guantlet use) good rules to put in, that way you dont have to worry about the same rules lawyering as you do with the monk. It seems quite similar to the way I described it in my Martial Artist class, the Bando Warrior, but I included natural weapons as well. you might want to consider those as well (like what happens when a martial artist kicks when he already has a natural attack with his legs. should he deal more damage?). According to the rules as written, these are gained as natural attacks, which would be used instead of, or in addition to existing natural attacks. There's no reason why they should do more damage. I don't get this. You specifically put in rules to eliminate the controversy and rules lawyering of monks and gauntlets, but you didn't do the same for this rule. There are huge debates going on currently on the real meaning of this rule, and how it applies to things like Improved Natural Attack. while I can see reason to just keep it like the monk and let DMs interpret it the same way for both classes in their games, I would suggest writing out exactly what you mean and bypassing all of the rules discussions. I was not familiar with that controversey, but I just got informed about it. My position is somewhat like the following: while I believe that the rules imply that they are natural attacks, so Improved Natural Attack should work. However, I see no reason to make a distinction where the core rules for monk do not. A DM who rules a particular way for monk should rule the same way for Brawlers. same issue as with the AC bonus. increasing base damage can only be done with size increases or (in the monk's case) chi. The monk has a higher base damage die with his unarmed attacks because of his internal energy and enlightenment, which a street brawler won't have. Again, wrong. Unarmed strikes are completely mundane, extraordinary abilities. The description for Unarmed Strike does not mention Ki anywhere. The increased damage for unarmed strikes represents training in unarmed combat- particular moves and techniques that one who does not pursue a martial art would not learn. This is the big distinction for the class- it's a fighter class who learns unarmed techniques (represented by the increased damage dice) but is not supernatural or spiritually attuned like a monk. Now its obvious that someone trained in unarmed fighting will deal more damage,, but you should represent this in a different way. ... If you really want to get into it, read the link in my sig on the justification for a monk's unarmed damage. I'm sorry, I will simply have to disagree with your opinion on this matter. for your bonus feat list, why didn't you include the TWF chain? its normally a key feat chain for unarmed fighters and monks. I'm thinking of taking away the bonus feats anyway, but my main emphasis behind the list was a small but general list of useful feats. Also, I was trying to avoid anything similar to Flurry of Blows, which I firmly believe should be one of the distinctions between monk and brawler. For balance, I'm going to compare this to a fighter. Yeah, the fighter might be a little underpowered, but it still works out as a good balancer anyways. besides, it a lot better for new classes to be under-powered instead of over powered. That's fair in some regards, but you have to remember the Fighter's strong points, especially when non-core material is allowed. Fighter is very flexible, and very useful in multiclassing; multiclassing in a more specialized class like Ranger or Monk has less direct use and application. what does a fighter lose: -martial weapon proficiency -light armor proficiency -medium armor proficiency -heavy armor proficiency -6 bonus feats of choosing -a cheap armor bonus to AC (full plate or the like instead of bracers of armor) -a cheap shield bonus to AC (heavy shield or the like) If I remove the bonus feats from Brawler, this comes to a total of 11 feats. Also, Fighters get access to fighter-only feats. what does a fighter gain: -a siginificantly better skill list Yes, but the same number of skill points per level, which means they will be spread even thinner, or placed differently. And, to be fair, fighters have the worst skill list of any base class. -a good reflex save, totalling a +6 bonus over the fighter That's what happens when you have a good versus a poor save... This is halfway between fighter and monk after all. -a level based bonus to AC. Which is still much much less than even mundane armor + shield. -an unsunderable, undisarmable, finessable, two-handed weapon that he can take anywhere, automatically hide from any guard, that deals more damage than any other weapon, and can still be enchanted. you have no idea how useful this can be. especially since, it being a two-handed weapon, it gains massive bonuses to disraming or sundering opponent's weapons and can be used excellently with power attack. And still gains all these bonuses even when used as an off-hand weapon. This is powerful. The two hand weapon part is only if you choose that combat style- and the benefits are not as dramatic as you make it sound. Be sure to not count this twice with the combat styles below. Also, think of what you typed- most of these things are true of anyone who uses natural attacks as their primary attack. It's true of monks too. -Combat Expertise Bonus feat (feat count=1) -Uncanny Dodge -Combat Style -Improved Uncanny Dodge -Power attack Bonus Feat (feat count=2) -Improved Combat Style -Damage Reduction: yeah I know this only converts it to non-lethal, but when combined with the fast healing, it pretty much is DR. I basically meant for it to be like DR but slightly worse. It won't keep you alive like a barbarian, but they keep going in long, drawn-out encounters better than people without DR. -Greater Combat Expertise: This is incredibly useful, and the increased cap is even better. Unlike monks, who get the wis bonus, this is the primary defense for brawlers. In addition, this draws upon their higher base attack bonus. However, the drawback is that while a brawler may get a significant AC bonus, he's going to run low on his BAB, spreading it between combat expertise and power attack. For example, just compare the level 20 attack bonuses for a brawler versus monk using flurry (which there is no reason why a monk wouldn't flurry): Brawler: +20/+15/+10/+5 Monk: +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 So really it's a tradeoff- a higher bonus for the first attack, but as you're spending points of it trying to bolster your AC or deal damage, your attack bonus for following attacks degrade significantly. -combat style mastery -Defensive Roll -Hustle: this allows movement+full attack. The hustle, I think, is a particularly interesting contrast to monks. Again, see above with flurry versus a full BAB. Also, monks are always naturally faster- they gain a movement increase to speed (and of course, more attacks). Brawlers tend to operate in bursts. A burst of speed (particularly useful for the skirmish style) and then a few good hits, but generally not the same stamina or consistency. So, basically, I'm only losing 4 bonus feats and some proficiencies because your giving away Power Attack and CE. Do you think that list is anywhere near balanced? no way. You need to tone it down a lot, I suggest you try starting with one class and then replacing abilities with your own abilities of equal power. Its a really well thought out class, but its more than a little too strong. A lot of this class was done by taking the classes of Monk, Barbarian, and Ranger, and swapping their abilities. Comparing it to Fighter was a sort of one-sided comparison. Also, again, I have considered just removing the bonus feats gained every fourth level. That would take the number of feffective feats a fighter gains over this class from 4 to... around 8. Also, full martial weapon proficiency, heavy armor proficiency, and shield and tower shield proficiency- you cannot downplay these abilities of a fighter, because they are some of the Fighter's strongest default abilities. This means a fighter can gain an easy +12 AC (+8 from full plate, +4 from a tower shield), as well as the ability to use ranged and melee weapons. And if we're comparing a fighter with magical equipment to a brawler with bracers of armor, the fighter can have two enhancement bonuses (one on armor, and one on shield) instead of the brawler's single enhancement bonus, in addition to the static +12. Anyways, you might want to check out my martial artist class, in my sig. You might be able to get some ideas from it. I like some of your ideas, but I think your martial art class and my class are from entirely different concepts. While yours is similar to a monk- very graceful and technichal, the brawler represents more of a raw power form of unarmed fighter. Compare, if you will, a judo or akito master versus wrestling or boxing. In many ways, it's technique versus power. hope this helps tiluvias99 Your comments have been very insightful, thank you.
Adain 08-18-05, 02:17 AM	I like the class flavor. Your is a unarmed unamored fighter though. You aren't just unarmed fighter. A Pugilist class (I made one) is a armor wearing unarmed fighter. So by not mentioning that fact you surprised me. But I like it so far. Thank you, I'm glad you like it. It seems the only kinds of comments I can draw are from other people who make unarmed figher classes. :P In many ways I'd like for my class to be more like a monk with a full base attack bonus than a fighter that happens to use fists. Or perhaps similar to a barbarian in many ways, especially flavor. So few skill points? This is the same number of skills as a Fighter or Paladin gets. Even monks only get 4 + int. In several ways I wanted them to be a little less skillful than monks. I agree guantlets should count as unarmed strike. I'm glad you gave Simple weapon proficiency and didn't fall into trap of not giving proficiecy of unarmed strike like a Monk forgot to. I'm not sure I understand. Monks get several simple weapons and unarmed strike proficiency. Why does he lose it when wearing a shield? I understand no armor but why shield restriction? Please see my above post about using a shield. It doesn't fit the style of the class (brawlers don't carry shields), it would be unbalanced (allowing them more AC without any investment), and, of course, the same reasons monks don't get shields. One reason for monks is they get Wisdom to AC, you don't. I feel this restriction is not needed for your guy. I do have a issue for Unarmed Damage why so high? I wanted to again differentiate from the technique of monks versus the sort of brutishness of brawlers. Brawlers should be using combat expertise to draw from their high BAB to fuel their AC, (or alternatively, not use it at all and just be defenseless). As for the damage, it's the same as the monks. Both monks and brawlers study powerful martial arts techniques - more ways of doing damage with their bodies (resulting in more damage). The difference is that monks tend to get more attacks (flurry), where Brawlers get a higher initial attack, but are overall less slick. I know Monks get it, but Monks are Supernatural. Explain your unarmed strike damage please? As I stated above, there is nothing supernatural about monk's unarmed attacks. It simply represents techniques in dealing damage with their bodies. Everyone seems to think of monks as mystical, magical fighters, but a great deal of their techniques are actually extraordinary. AC bonus, flurry of blows, evasion, fast movement, slow fall, all of their body perfection abilities- they are all extraordinary, even though they represent the fruits of spiritual training. People do many of these things in real life. I like these, they fit... I like this ability it meshes well with the type of style... Love this idea; Rogues shouldn't be only rollers!... Very powerful, though it is 1/day so I guess it isn't too strong as it seems. Thank you. Be strange to find a Brawler at level 6 with 12 strength only, but this does mean even if he has Ray of Enfeelble or fatigued cast on him he can use it because he can get it without the Prerequisites. Whether or not they are likely to have the prereqs or not, getting bonus feats for free from a class, you are almost always exempt from the prereqs. You get the feat for free, that's all. Whoa so this counts for Disarm attempts to? Great abiliity. I'm glad there's interest in the hard fist style, though I personally like the wrestling style a lot. This emulates Stand Tough ability from Street Fighter Prc in Complete Adventurer. Though the mechanics aren't copied at least. I think it seems okay. It's a little bit more analagous to damage reduction than Stand Tough. It's a sort of wimpier version of damage reduction, especially coupled with the fast healing ability. I like it. It helps the guy survive since he normally has low AC. But this means he can get at level 10: a -10 hit to add +20 Dodge bonus to AC? Yes, he will barely hit anything but he will have awesome AC for that turn. I can see this a good enough ability to want to take Bralwer for a Defensive guy. In many ways, this class is both highly defensive and completely lacking defense. It's up to the character to determine how defensive they want to play. Do they want to drop their AC to almost nothing to make a powerful attack? Do they want to have a surefire hit but be defenseless? Do they want to have no hit or AC and just throw everything into a one-hit kill punch? All of these considerations are up to the player. Fast Nonlethal Healing 1? This combines well with soak damage. This would also help you defeat my Pugilist (he gains bonus nonlethal damage hehe). But bravo since this is'nt too strong in general. Thanks, these are meant to be companion skills. I originally had damage reduction, but favored this idea instead. So this helps a Skirmishing Brawler make full attacks, eh? It's useful for most of the styles- getting to an enemy to do a full attack power attack, or multiple grapple attempts. Thank you for your comments, I hope this answers some of your questions.
tiluvias99 08-18-05, 12:07 PM	This is simply not true. Trained combatants can gain a cognative insight into combat simply through experience. This insight, while it is referred to as a sixth sense, is not occult or supernatural at all; it simply represents unconscious conditioning on the part of the warrior. If nothing else, I can rewrite the description that this AC bonus is gained through training and experience rather than a sixth sense, but that shouldn't change the mechanics.I agree with the first part of your statement, but consider this: That sixth sense your talking about, and being able to dode unanticipated attacks is in an ability you already have: Uncanny Dodge.This AC bonus represents training done strictly without armor. The kind of reaction required to perform the dodges would be nullified if one wears armor.Yes, but that nullification is represented mechanically through an armor's max dex and an armor's ACP. An armor that had no max dex and noACP means that it does not restrict you in any way. If your really worried about it, then not only have it apply to their max dex, but also have the ACP apply to it as well (with a minimum bonus of zero, of course). and what I meant by having a it apply to your dex bonus to AC is that a character with 16 dex and a +2 bonus to AC wearing a chainshirt would still only get +4.While I appreciate where you're coming from, I must disagree for two reasons: 1. Letting them get an AC bonus AND wear armor would not only destroy the theme of the class, but make it unbalanced as well. If I don't make severe disadvantages for wearing any armor, there would be some sort of number crunching that would allow significant stacking advantages. Especially in this case, the AC bonus is given because they cannot wear armor. Letting these abilities stack would be unacceptable.An AC bonus that gives a max bonus of +4 is not unbalanced at all if you give them armor usage as well. It really won't make a huge difference, considering all of the other ways to massively boost your AC.2. This ability parallels the monk AC bonus, except that the brawler does not get the wisdom bonus. Would you allow a monk to wear armor too, even if his dex and wisdom bonus capped? Not likely.that is because a monk's AC bonus is not from physical training. Physical training can be restricted, but it cannot be negated. If you tie my hands behind my back and nail my feet to the floor, I'm not gonna be able to defend mas well, but I could still try to dodge. If I put on sparring pads, then sure my abilities are restricted and aren't as good, but I can still do them. If a monk puts on sparring gear, his abilities are gone. he can't even try to do them. they just disappear. This does not happen in real life. The monk's AC bonus comes from his mystical abilities. The (Ex) just means that it isn't like normal magic (being ki/chi) and would stay up in an atimagic field, for example.According to the rules as written, these are gained as natural attacks, which would be used instead of, or in addition to existing natural attacks. There's no reason why they should do more damage.indeed. according to the RAW, natural attacks and unarmed strikes are completely seperate. neither one ever touches the other. however, at least in my martial artist, if someone who trains how to head but someone has a couple big-ass spikes on his head, he's gonna deal more damage with his head but (an unarmed strike) than someone without the spikes. Or if he punches someone and naturally has knives for hands, then he'll deal more damage with that punch than a person with a fist. of course, the counter-arguement is that in that first example, I'm making a gore attack, not an unarmed strike, and in the second, I'm making a claw attack, not an unarmed strike, but our character is going through the exact same motions as the non-natural weaponed character, he just has better weapons to do those motions with. It's all just a houserule that I put in, but I think it makes sense. I thought you might want to put it in, beause you already put in the part about the gauntlet. ...and what about spiked gauntlets? does he deal more damage with those?Again, wrong. Unarmed strikes are completely mundane, extraordinary abilities. The description for Unarmed Strike does not mention Ki anywhere. The increased damage for unarmed strikes represents training in unarmed combat- particular moves and techniques that one who does not pursue a martial art would not learn. This is the big distinction for the class- it's a fighter class who learns unarmed techniques (represented by the increased damage dice) but is not supernatural or spiritually attuned like a monk.nope. there's one big distinction your missing: Increased base damage can get you increased damage, but increased damage does not akways come from increased based damage. BIG DIFFERENCE. the only time a weapon's base damage increases is when their size changes. the only exception to this is the monk, because it's just silly to assume that their hands and feet and elbows and knees and head and shoulders and hips are dealing more damage because their getting bigger. Learning how to deal more damage and hit harder comes from flat bonuses to damage, such as from weapon specialization or power attack. the only way that the monk could increase their base damage dice is ki, because it doesn't follow any of the patterns already set in the rules, except the pattern that the monk has very strange abilities that come from his mystical chi/ki. As for why its an (ex) ability, the same thing applies as with the AC bonus- its still supernatural, but its so unlike normal magic, so different from any other magical abililty, that it follows the rules of an (ex) ability. For example, just compare the level 20 attack bonuses for a brawler versus monk using flurry (which there is no reason why a monk wouldn't flurry): Brawler: +20/+15/+10/+5 Monk: +15/+15/+15/+10/+5it has been proven many times in every single thread where someone says a monk is the best grappler that high BAB is strictly better than FoB (search around, Thorak is the one who does it most often). high BAB gives you a better disarm, a better sunder, a better grapple check, a better spring attack, a better charge attack, or any other time you make a single attack. Also, high BAB makes a huge differenece in whether or not your going to hit something with high AC (meaning everyone at the high levels), and if you don't need it, then you can go down to the exact same attack bonus and gain a +10 to damage with power attack. moral: High BAB > FoB. (and don't try posting some uber monk medium BAB build, you're smart enough to get my point) As for balance, removing the bonus feats would make a big difference. I suggest you do that. I'm not sure I understand. Monks get several simple weapons and unarmed strike proficiency.nope. check again. monks aren't proficient in unarmed strikes. any reasonable DM would houserule it so it is, but by the RAW, they aren't. sucks, eh?In many ways, this class is both highly defensive and completely lacking defense. It's up to the character to determine how defensive they want to play. Do they want to drop their AC to almost nothing to make a powerful attack? Do they want to have a surefire hit but be defenseless? Do they want to have no hit or AC and just throw everything into a one-hit kill punch? All of these considerations are up to the player.the problem with this is that the brawler would have to take a penalty to his attacks just to be on par with the other front liners defensively, and would have to take a huge hit to his AC to be on par with them offensively. thats not good, it either makes for paper tigers or tanks that can't deal any damage. Thank you, I'm glad you like it. It seems the only kinds of comments I can draw are from other people who make unarmed figher classes.It's because we all desperately want reviews from people on our own martial artists :P tiluvias99
Adain 08-18-05, 04:29 PM	I agree with the first part of your statement, but consider this: That sixth sense your talking about, and being able to dode unanticipated attacks is in an ability you already have: Uncanny Dodge. While Uncanny dodge represents a part of that, another part is the AC bonus. That's not a convincing argument that the same kinds of combat intuition that grant him one ability wouldnot grant him another. In fact, it makes sense that several of his abilities are related. Yes, but ... ...It really won't make a huge difference, considering all of the other ways to massively boost your AC... These rules sound even more complicated. I'm sure you don't think so, because they are the rules you are using, but they do not fit the class's style nor its intended purpose. Even if I made serios restriction on the maximum bonus, it would still be unbalancing, because people would just not put points into dex, intead investing heavily into str, and relying on armor for AC. They would become tin can punchers, and that is so very much not what I'm intending. that is because a monk's AC bonus is not from physical training. If a monk puts on sparring gear, his abilities are gone. he can't even try to do them. they just disappear. This does not happen in real life. I'm afraid I'm going to have to flatly disagree with you here. Your opinion, while it stems from a common idea of monks bying mystical and magical, is unsupported in the book text entirely. Furthermore, that doesn't really change the way my class works, mechanically. It seems you can't sleep at night if monks aren't using their chi or ki or whatever to do things you think are completely supernatural. That's fine, then apply the same things to brawlers. Brawlers can be mystical and magical in their own right, with their own sixth sense and equivalent of ki if that makes you feel better about their mechanical restrictions. The fact of the matter is that with a very few exceptions, the text for these entries in my brawler class were lifted word for word from the monk's descriptions. Whatever reasoning and rules apply to monks should apply to brawlers, and absolutely nothing else is implied. The monk's AC bonus comes from his mystical abilities. The (Ex) just means that it isn't like normal magic (being ki/chi) and would stay up in an atimagic field, for example.indeed.[/quote[ If it were supernatural in any way it would be (Su) and it would not work in an antimagic field. It doesn't matter how "mystical" you think of the abilities are, if they are not supernatural, they are perfectly mundane. That's fine for this class too. (And again, I disagree that monks' AC bonus is supernatural at all. There is nothing in the text that hints that it is at all. I know. I copied it myself.) [quote]according to the RAW, natural attacks and unarmed strikes are completely seperate. neither one ever touches the other. however, at least in my martial artist, if someone who trains how to head but someone has a couple big-ass spikes on his head, he's gonna deal more damage with his head but (an unarmed strike) than someone without the spikes. Or if he punches someone and naturally has knives for hands, then he'll deal more damage with that punch than a person with a fist. of course, the counter-arguement is that in that first example, I'm making a gore attack, not an unarmed strike, and in the second, I'm making a claw attack, not an unarmed strike, Again, this is complicating the rules. Secondly, I see no reason to give benefits to monsterous races using this class as an excuse to bolster their natural attack capabilities. And again, monks don't grant these abilities, so I don't see any reason for a brawler to. I appreciate the ideas you have for your class, but you have to appreciate my decision to not prefer or incorporate them. but our character is going through the exact same motions as the non-natural weaponed character, he just has better weapons to do those motions with. I argue that they are not in fact the same motions. They are the same motions as a natural attack. There are many ways to attack with the body and very few rely on having a sword for a hand or spikes on your forehead. Like you said, if you attack with those, they are claw or gore attacks, and this is not a class based around savage species practicing their pre-existing natural attacks. Even mentioning such things detracts from the flavor and intended style for the class. It's all just a houserule that I put in, but I think it makes sense. I thought you might want to put it in, beause you already put in the part about the gauntlet. Well, I don't want to put it in. If you let monks do more damage with their natural attacks, then that's fine as a house rule. You can let the brawler do the same. The rules for guantlet use were specifically inserted as a way to allow brawlers to bypass damage reduction and to have permanent magical weapons while still retaining their class abilities. It is a central conceit of the class. ...and what about spiked gauntlets? does he deal more damage with those? No. A spiked guantlet is little more than a (punching) dagger held for you. The kinds of motions you use to attack with one are much different than standard martial arts. nope. there's one big distinction your missing: Increased base damage can get you increased damage, but increased damage does not akways come from increased based damage. ... ... As for why its an (ex) ability, the same thing applies as with the AC bonus- its still supernatural, but its so unlike normal magic, so different from any other magical abililty, that it follows the rules of an (ex) ability. I still disagree with you completely. And again, you have nothing in the text to back you up. If you're so insistant upon thinking about monks in this way, then think of brawlers the same way. They are monks with a different mechanical twist. As for your last statement, that is outright incorrect. The rules make very clear distinctions about what is (Ex) and what is (Su). And if an ability is (Ex) then that should be good enough for this class as well. it has been proven many times in every single thread where someone says a monk is the best grappler that high BAB is strictly better than FoB (search around, Thorak is the one who does it most often). That's fine, but my comparing the base attack progressions had nothing to do with grapple. I was showing that monks, while they get a lower highest attack, will likely still deal more, or at best, the same damage as a brawler, simply because they get more attacks. On the note of grappling, this class should blow monks out of the water in terms of grappling ability. That's good, that's one of the things that I wanted this class to excel at (standard grappling incurs many drawback). Of course, this class would benefit the most if they chose the wrestling style (which means they don't get the THW ability you seem to think is so powerful). It's all a matter of what kind of style or build the particular brawler chooses. high BAB gives you a better disarm, a better sunder, a better grapple check, a better spring attack, a better charge attack, or any other time you make a single attack. Indeed, that's the point I was aiming for while making this class- better at some things than a monk (such as one attack), but overall less technique (no flurry of blows, which triples a monk's highest attack roll, something you can't downplay in terms of utility). Also, high BAB makes a huge differenece in whether or not your going to hit something with high AC (meaning everyone at the high levels), and if you don't need it, then you can go down to the exact same attack bonus and gain a +10 to damage with power attack. This actually only makes hitting difficult opponents easier if their AC is so high your chances of hitting them without power attack or combat expertise is incredibly low to begin with. Let's compare a brawler to a monk with the same stats. An 11th level brawler with 18 str has an attack bonus of +15/+10/+5 (str bonus included). The same monk would have +12/+12/+12/+7/+2. Against an opponent with an AC of 26, the brawler has a 64.4% chance of hitting at least once. The monk has a 76.5% chance of hitting at least once, just because he gets more tries. Against an AC of 30, the brawler has a 32.3% chance, where the monk has a 44.5% chance. Against an AC of 32, the brawler's chance is a scant 27.8%, while a monk's chance is 22.6%! In other words, this monk, even though he needs to roll a 20 to hit, still has a 22.6% chance of rolling a 20, simply because he gets 5 chances. The brawler almost always fares worse. As for being able to power attack, that is precicely the distinction that I wanted to make for this class. At 20th level, you have +5 BAB over a monk, but the monk still gets 2 more attacks than you at his highest BAB (each hit possibly adding power attack or other static damage as well). In the end, I don't think that makes a big damage difference. The difference is the brawler throws all of his oomph into a few punches, but the monk gets a lot of more moderate attacks. In this way monks are a lot more consistant damage dealers. Also, I will note again that only the hard fist style gets the double power attack bonus. The wrestling style gets better grappling, and skirmish gets just that. Not all brawlers are going to be power attacking. moral: High BAB > FoB. Actually, I don't think you proved your moral at all. You proved that High BAB lets you do certain special maneuvers better than flurry, but not damage, and certainly not overall. (and don't try posting some uber monk medium BAB build, you're smart enough to get my point) I don't think my example was uber monk at all. It was the same stats as the brawler I used in my example. As for balance, removing the bonus feats would make a big difference. I suggest you do that. Tenatively, that is what I'm planning. nope. check again. monks aren't proficient in unarmed strikes. any reasonable DM would houserule it so it is, but by the RAW, they aren't. sucks, eh? That's really funny, because I copied the description for unarmed strike out of the monk description. They get Improved Unarm Strike. If you are saying that they should have "unarmed attacks" listed under weapon proficiencies, that's silly. You are always proficient with unarmed attacks, though you provoke attacks of opportunity (and deal nonlethal damage) unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike. That feat is the closest thing to "unarmed weapon proficiency" there is. Guantlets speficically say that they are treated as unarmed strikes except that they allow you to do lethal damage as well. the problem with this is that the brawler would have to take a penalty to his attacks just to be on par with the other front liners defensively, and would have to take a huge hit to his AC to be on par with them offensively. thats not good, it either makes for paper tigers or tanks that can't deal any damage. That's the point; this class is about personal balance. Does the brawler throw everything into attack? Does he throw everything into defense? Both options are probably bad, but a smart one could strike a good balance, getting a decent defensive and offensive boost at the expense of his accuracy. It's curious though, how you go on about how much damage they can do with their hard fist style, but then go on to say that they have to make sacrifices just to be on par. It's because we all desperately want reviews from people on our own martial artists :P Well, again, I appreciate your comments. It's a lot better having something to discuss than just sitting and wondering.
tiluvias99 08-19-05, 11:26 AM	...comparing the monk and the brawler...I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, then. In either case, it still makes the monk an anomaly among the weapon damage patterns, I just thought you might want to stay away from that. It doesn't make much difference balance-wise though.I argue that they are not in fact the same motions. They are the same motions as a natural attack. There are many ways to attack with the body and very few rely on having a sword for a hand or spikes on your forehead. Like you said, if you attack with those, they are claw or gore attacks, and this is not a class based around savage species practicing their pre-existing natural attacks.meh. just seems to me that after spending years of training on how to fight with your hands and feet that you would be able to augment your own natural abilities just by applying the same principles and movements to you own natural weapons. Here's another way to look at it: If I covered a shin guard or a hand wrap with glass shards or sharp pieces of metal (nails or something, I dunno), I would punch and kick the exact same way as I would if I wasn't wearing them. but I would still deal more damage. Sure it would be heavier, but I would use the exact same motions. The only difference is that now my hand/shin is heavier, harder, and sharper. You definitely could fight in a completely different style and manner of fighting to take full advantage of those extra sharp bits, but you wouldn't have to. You can apply the same movements and principles of a punch to a punch with spikes instead of knuckles. Again, by the RAW, punching someone with a bare fist, punching someone when you have knives for hands, and punching someone with a spiked gauntlet are all completely different, but I think this is a reasonable houserule. But if your adamant about staying within the RAW, go ahead, I won't raise the issue again.Let's compare a brawler to a monk with the same stats. An 11th level brawler with 18 str has an attack bonus of +15/+10/+5 (str bonus included). The same monk would have +12/+12/+12/+7/+2. Against an opponent with an AC of 26, the brawler has a 64.4% chance of hitting at least once. The monk has a 76.5% chance of hitting at least once, just because he gets more tries. Against an AC of 30, the brawler has a 32.3% chance, where the monk has a 44.5% chance. Against an AC of 32, the brawler's chance is a scant 27.8%, while a monk's chance is 22.6%! In other words, this monk, even though he needs to roll a 20 to hit, still has a 22.6% chance of rolling a 20, simply because he gets 5 chances. The brawler almost always fares worse.indeed. however, there are some things you left out of your equation, such as that a monk probably won't have near the same strength of a brawler due to MAD, and that 11th level is a prime level for the monk. move it down to 10 (or up to 20 or something) and you'd see a much bigger difference. just something to think about.That's really funny, because I copied the description for unarmed strike out of the monk description. They get Improved Unarm Strike. If you are saying that they should have "unarmed attacks" listed under weapon proficiencies, that's silly. You are always proficient with unarmed attacks, though you provoke attacks of opportunity (and deal nonlethal damage) unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike. That feat is the closest thing to "unarmed weapon proficiency" there is. Guantlets speficically say that they are treated as unarmed strikes except that they allow you to do lethal damage as well.nope. unarmed strikes are a simple weapon, and require simple weapon proficiency to use without penalty. And the IUS feat does not require unarmed strike proficiency. And no your not always proficint with unarmed attacks, check again: the Humanoid type is not proficient with its own natural weapons. See the link in my sig for more info. That's the point; this class is about personal balance. Does the brawler throw everything into attack? Does he throw everything into defense? Both options are probably bad, but a smart one could strike a good balance, getting a decent defensive and offensive boost at the expense of his accuracy.the problem is that the other front-liners have good defense and offense, this class has one or the other, or is mediocore at both.It's curious though, how you go on about how much damage they can do with their hard fist style, but then go on to say that they have to make sacrifices just to be on par.They'll be fine on damage, I don't have a problem with that. a front-lining martial artist should be better at dealing damage than the monk anyways. and what I should have said was that most front-liners will be able to do fine in AC, BAB, and Damage, while this class will only be able to choose between high AC and Damage with low BAB or high BAB and Damage with low AC, or somewhere in between.
Adain 08-19-05, 01:22 PM	I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, then. In either case, it still makes the monk an anomaly among the weapon damage patterns, I just thought you might want to stay away from that. Actually, it's precicely because I do not want to be anomolous that I want to follow the prescedent set by monks. Sure monks are the odd monkey out, as the only class that gains increasing damage dice, but it's decidedly something people can relate to. By copying the rules instead of introducing new ones, I'm trying to eliminate confusion and inconsistency. It doesn't make much difference balance-wise though.meh. just seems to me that after spending years of training on how to fight with your hands and feet that you would be able to augment your own natural abilities just by applying the same principles and movements to you own natural weapons. ... While intellectually, I have no problem accepting that, it seems like the sort of thing that should be a house rule to ensure that it is fairly governed monks as well. It seems the sort of thing that would be errataed. I don't think it's my place as a class designer to put forward my opinions on rule interpretations, but rather to promote consistency, which leads to fairness and balance. indeed. however, there are some things you left out of your equation, such as that a monk probably won't have near the same strength of a brawler due to MAD, and that 11th level is a prime level for the monk. move it down to 10 (or up to 20 or something) and you'd see a much bigger difference. just something to think about. Well, that's why you can't make staight-out comparisons like "such and such is better." At low levels, the difference in BAB between 3/4 and full is not a very large number. At higher levels, monks get a full two attacks with no accuracy loss. It promotes drastically different builds, but that's a good thing; it's variety. That just means comparing directly is a bit misleading. nope. unarmed strikes are a simple weapon, and require simple weapon proficiency to use without penalty. See the link in my sig for more info. Well, being a bit fresh around here I wasn't aware of the onging debate. But as I'm sure you're well aware from that thread, the overwhelming consensus is that the rules aren't clear or consice on the issue. Rather, they are vacuous, and thus the obvious intention is lost. I'm surprised there hasn't been official errata on the matter. I'm going to have a small section on the class for Q&A and other errata. I'll be sure to include my take on these existing monk debates. I appreciate having them brought to light. the problem is that the other front-liners have good defense and offense, this class has one or the other, or is mediocore at both.They'll be fine on damage, I don't have a problem with that. a front-lining martial artist should be better at dealing damage than the monk anyways. and what I should have said was that most front-liners will be able to do fine in AC, BAB, and Damage, while this class will only be able to choose between high AC and Damage with low BAB or high BAB and Damage with low AC, or somewhere in between. In many ways, this class will have to choose ways of getting around their shortcommings. I could give a list of many possible things they could be as or more effective than an armored fighter, while still having a matter of defense, but I'm sure you can think of some yourself. And on another note, having a glass howitzer kind of class for melee combat is interesting in its own right.
Adain 08-20-05, 12:40 AM	I got some feedback from Talanall over email. (quoted here) Brawlers have the following game statistics. Abilities: Strength is necessary for brawlers in order to deal more damage. It also affects their ability to hit and grapple opponents. Because they cannot wear armor, dexterity is important, and nimble brawlers often favor it over strength. Constitution helps a brawler survive longer, so it is obviously welcomed. Intelligence and Wisdom are favored primarily for the bonus to skills. Alignment: Any. Hit Die: d10 Random Starting Gold: 2d4 × 5 (25 gp) Ed’s Note: If alignment doesn’t matter, why is it listed here? You should remove it. Regarding your discussion of ability scores, you’re basically incorrect about Wisdom. A Hard Fist stylist relies on Wisdom for the DC of his stunning fist attacks. The Alignment: Any is there to be consistent with entries for other classes. I'll add a mention the wisdom bit. Class Skills The brawler’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Profession (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex). See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player's Handbook for skill descriptions. Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) × 4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier. Ed’s Note: This list of class skills is very extensive, especially when you consider how few skill points the class grants. You may wish either to restrict the class skill list, or to expand its skill point advancement. Given that this class is most comparable to the Barbarian and Monk core base classes, I think that it would probably be best to go with 4 + Int modifier skill advancement, and leave the class skill list as it is; I don’t see anything on the skill list that doesn’t seem like it should be there. 4 + Int doesn't sound too much. I figured the class was powerful in other ways, so I might have over-curbed it. A brawler may treat equipping a gauntlet as both wielding a weapon and as an unarmed strike. A brawler using a gauntlet as a weapon uses his own unarmed damage as shown on Table 1-1, but gains any enhancement bonus and special properties of the gauntlet equipped. Magically enchanted gauntlets, or gauntlets made of special materials allow a brawler's unarmed strike to penetrate damage reduction of those types. Here the term "gauntlet" is used, but really, this can be any reinforced covering for the hands, or even legs and feet (for example, brass knuckles, a reinforced glove, metal shin guards, etc.). A gauntlet can be used for any of a brawler's attacks, but obviously it can only be worn on one hand (or leg) at a time. Thus a brawler wearing multiple gauntlets may choose between any of them, or an arm or leg not equipping a gauntlet for each attack he makes, interchangeably. Brawler and monk levels stack for the purposes of determining unarmed damage. A brawler who multiclasses as a monk determines his unarmed damage by adding his brawler levels to his monk levels and then referring to Table 1-1. Ed’s Note: I am concerned about the balance of the gauntlet-wearing ability of the brawler. In many ways, it is comparable to the monk’s ability to use special monk weapons in a flurry of blows attack. For a monk, special weapons are one of the most effective ways to add magical effects to their attacks. But the benefit comes with a price; monks always use the weapon’s damage die instead of their unarmed damage. Your brawler is not set up the same way. For the brawler, it’s possible to wear two magical gauntlets, allowing him to choose between their effects on a whim. You’ve added “legs or feet” to the mix, though. For reference, a gauntlet goes on your hand. If it’s not on your hand, it’s not a gauntlet. For the sake of game balance, I strongly recommend that you remove all references to legs. Maybe the brawler does kick as well as punch. But if he wants to get some magic on those attacks, he can spend some cash on an amulet of mighty fists. This is a sort of deliberate balancing factor I wanted to have for brawlers. Since brawlers don't get flurry of blows, they could at least do decent damage with a few hits if they enchat their gloves. Also, there is no other equivalent to a "special monk weapon" for brawlers- Even if a brawler multiclasses as a monk, they couldn't combine the gauntlet-wearing with flurry, because it's not a special monk weapon right? Perhaps I should be more specific about this. I think I'll give it its own entry instead of lumping it under unarmed strike. Skirmish (Ex): A brawler who chooses the skirmish ... Ed’s Note: Okay, I’ve noticed that you go ahead and talk about Skirmish here, but you wait until much later to discuss the Improved Combat Style and Combat Style Mastery aspects of the wrestling and hard fist styles. This is probably not a good idea. I think that you should probably try placing Skirmish, Wrestling, and Hard Fist as their own italicized headings under the umbrella of Combat Style (Ex):. This would make it clear that they are all aspects of the same class feature. The same goes for Improved Combat Style (Ex): at 7th level, and Combat Style Mastery (Ex): at 12th. For an example of the formatting style I’m suggesting, check out the Player’s Handbook spot on Bardic Music. Although it's just the organization of the entry, I'll probably end up doing that. Brute Strength (Ex): A practitioner of the hard fist style gains the ability to put extra power in his unarmed attacks. At 7th level, a brawler who selected hard fist style can treat any of his unarmed attacks as a two-handed weapon. Normally, unarmed attacks count as light weapons. Two-handed weapons deal 1½ Strength bonus as damage on each attack, and deal extra damage with Power Attack. A brawler may still use any hand interchangeably for each attack, as well as legs. Despite being counted as a two-handed weapon, his unarmed attacks still only require one limb for each attack. Ed’s Note: I am honestly unsure whether I think this is balanced or not. I am leaning towards “yes, it is.” As a point of information, you’ve also messed up your explanation of how unarmed attacks are treated. Unarmed attacks are treated as unarmed attacks. They are light weapons, but you can use Power Attack with them. I am also concerned because I think that this ability probably opens the door to becoming a better grappling specialist than someone who takes the Wrestling style in this class. As you know, you can make unarmed attacks while you’re in a grapple. At level 12, the balance probably shifts again to favor the Wrestler rather than the Hard Fist stylist, but until that time, a Hard Fist practitioner with Improved Grapple is just as good at grappling single opponents as a Wrestling stylist, and may in fact be better at it because he’ll have significantly better damage output, and because someone using Hard Fist is the most likely to have better Str than someone specializing in Wrestling. It’s something to think about. Well, at 7th level, a wrestler who follows the grappling path, while they won't have as much damage from their grapple, will still have the same grapple mod as an identical brawler who took both Improved Grapple and the hard fist style. That's fine with me, because at the same time the unique wrestling ability at 7th level makes a brawler much more tactical (by removing many of the risks associated with grappling in a crowd). Soak Damage (Ex): Through constant training of his body, a brawler learns ways to take blows such that they are less fatal. Starting at 9th level, each time the brawler takes lethal damage, up to one point of that damage is taken as nonlethal damage instead. This ability increases to 3 points converted at 13th level, and 5 points at 17th level. This ability can never convert more lethal damage to nonlethal than the initial amount of lethal damage received for each hit. Ed’s Note: Okay, this ability is a good idea, but the execution is a problem. Why? It doesn’t actually improve his ability to withstand punishment. See, if you deal 4 points of damage to a level 9 brawler, you’re really dealing 3 points of lethal damage and 1 point of non-lethal. Let’s say that the brawler gets ambushed by a group of five halfling monks with 16 Str. All of them have shuriken. So every time they hit him with a shuriken attack, he suffers four points of damage, three of them lethal and one non-lethal. Let’s say he’s got 64 hit points to start out. After they hit him 10 times, he’s taken 30 lethal damage and 10 non-lethal. His hit point total is 34. If they hit him 6 more times, he’s staggered (16 hit points, and 16 points of accumulated non-lethal damage). One more hit, and he’s unconscious (13 hit points and 17 points of non-lethal damage). See the problem? If not for the conversion to non-lethal damage, it would take 16 hits to drop him instead of 17. So all that really happened here is that he managed to endure one more attack, and he’s not actually dead yet. But he will be, once one of these monks gets around to using a Coup de Grace attack on him. I suggest changing the ability to grant DR/--, like what the barbarian class gets. To keep it balanced, start it as DR 1/-- at 9th level, improving to DR 2/-- at 13th level, and DR 3/-- at 15th. I think it's fine in many ways- they still regenerate one hit point per turn from the other ability, which means that while it isn't as reliable as damage reduction, if the brawler can keep himself safe for a number of rounds (or, more likely, alive until combat ends) then all that damage is as good as gone. The second effect of it being nonlethal damage is that healing spells are effectively twice as effective. This is because for every point of real, lethal damage healed, an equal amount of nonlethal damage is also restored. Really, there is no reason a brawler should fight five monks at once. In a situation like that, in particular, it would be a good idea for the brawler (assuming he was by himself) to avoid combat if at all possible. Use your improved combat expertise to get a huge AC boost, and tumble, bull rush, or otherwise find a way through and flee. This ability doesn't help them stay alive very much in the short run; it's sort of part of being a glass howitzer. However, they will be faring better than most party members in long, drawn out encounters. Tireless Stamina (Ex): At 11th level, a brawler learns to recover from physical trauma at a rate much faster than others. He gains Fast Healing 1, except that this ability will only remove nonlethal damage, not hit point loss due to lethal damage. See page 293 of the Dungeon Master's Guide for information on Fast Healing. Ed’s Note: Despite my suggested changes to the Soak Damage ability above, I think it would be okay to leave this ability as it is written. Among other things, it allows the character to endure non-lethal damage, and doesn’t say anything about the source. This allows the character to move at a hustle or run for extended periods of time, since it’s impossible for him to run himself into unconsciousness. If you wanted to get rid of it, however, I’d say it’d also be okay if you started DR/-- as DR 1/-- at 9th level, DR 2/-- at 11th (replacing this ability), DR 3/-- at 13th, and DR 4/-- at 15th. In this way, you’d be mimicking the barbarian’s DR progression, basically having started it a couple levels later. Of course, this is tied to the above ability. Changing one, I would feel the need to change the other. Combat Style Mastery (Ex): Ed’s Note: As before, see my commentary on the Combat Style and Improved Combat Style sections. Knockout Punch (Ex): At 12th level, a brawler trained in the hard fist style learns to do a devastating attack that can render his opponent unconscious. Once per day, as a standard action, a brawler who selected hard fist style may spend a stunning fist attempt to attempt a knockout attack. The use of this ability must be declared before the attack roll, and failure still consumes the use per day of this ability and the Stunning Fist attempt. When using this ability, the brawler must take a Power Attack penalty on his attack roll of at least -5. The brawler then makes an unarmed strike against his opponent, dealing nonlethal damage. If the attack is successful, his opponent must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC = damage received). If his opponent fails this save, the victim immediately becomes unconscious (even if his nonlethal damage does not exceed his remaining hit points) for a number of rounds = (1d6 + Strength bonus + Power Attack modifier) (the Power Attack modifier is equal to the penalty taken on the attack, not the total damage bonus). Even if the opponent makes his save, he is still dazed for one round. Though this ability is called Knockout Punch, this may actually be a kick or any other natural attack available to the brawler. Ed’s Note: This ability needs some work. I suggest changing the DC. I understand that you would like the DC to be higher the more damage that is dealt by the knockout punch. But from a mechanical standpoint, it is best to use DC = (10 + 1/2 the brawler’s Hit Dice + Brawler’s Str modifier). This yields an initial DC ranging from 18 (for a brawler with Str 14) to 22 (a brawler with Str 22). The way you’ve set it up, the initial DC for the ability ranges from 18-28 for a brawler with Str 18. Given that this is an ability usable 1/day, it really ought to be pretty dependable. This is especially a problem at higher levels; when you get the ability, your damage dice are 2d6, giving you a range of 2-12 for damage. The Power Attack component of your damage on this attack is 10 points. So the base DC varies from 12 to 22, modified by your 1.5 times your Str modifier. At level 20, the damage range is 2-20 from dice, plus 10 for Power Attack, for a range of 12-30 modified by Str in the same manner. Basically, this attack gets less and less dependable the way you have written it. The formula to determine its duration also needs some work; I suggest 1d6+1/2 class level+Str modifier rounds of unconsciousness. That way, the ability’s duration scales primarily on the basis of the character’s level, instead of on the basis of the Str score or some other extremely variable thing. I actually considered that very DC formula. This class was a collabarative effort and while we tenatively settled with the DC = damage dealt, I will agree that to be consistent with other, similar attacks, having a level-based variable in the DC is useful. Another change I think is good keeping in the power attack modifier. This sort of goes against the "reliability" idea you're stressing, but gives another factor to consider, which is part of the reason behind settling on damage: by increasing the power attack penalty, the DC for unconsciousness goes up. On the other hand, the accuracy goes down. This can be imagined by a brawler making a ferocious, wild blow to the head. Maybe he throws a little too much into it and misses, but if he does connect, then knockout is almost assured. We shall see. Hustle (Ex): Through physical mastery of their bodies, brawlers learn how to force momentary bursts of speed when necessary. Starting at 18th level, once per round, as a free action, a brawler may take an extra movement action that round. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to the brawler's Constitution bonus (minimum 1/day). A brawler may only use this ability when he is not wearing armor, not using a shield, and not carrying a medium or heavy load. Ed’s Note: This needs a new name. “Hustle” already has a defined meaning within the core rules. “Burst of Speed” might do for a new name, I guess. Again, something I've considered. Since "hustle" is an ability (psionic power) that grants this very ability, I thought staying with that name would be more consistent. Burst of Speed sounds perfectly fine to me, though. Thanks for the feedback. :)
WarDragon 10-09-05, 09:16 PM	There's quite a few unarmed, non-Monk classes floating around these boards, but this one's the best, IMHO. Excellent work. :thumbsup:
WarDragon 12-15-05, 06:57 PM	Bumpage.