Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JasperDm 12-16-04, 10:08 PM	Brawler(unarmed barbarian) The brawler is the opposite of the monk, the kind of mean scrapper you might find starting an alley brawl, rather than being caught in one. d10 Hit Dice Simple weapons, light armor, no shields. Skills and skill points as barbarian, with Ride and Handle Animal replaced by Knowledge(local) and Sense Motive. Lv BAB F / R / W Unarmed Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 1d6 Fast movement (+10 ft.), unarmed combat 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 1d6 Uncanny Dodge, Combat Style 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 1d6 Iron Fist (magic) 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 1d8 +1 natural armor 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 1d8 Improved uncanny dodge 6 +6 +5 +2 +2 1d8 Improved combat style 7 +7 +5 +2 +2 1d8 DR 1/- 8 +8 +6 +2 +2 1d10 +2 natural armor 9 +9 +6 +3 +3 1d10 Iron Fist (silver, cold iron) 10 +10 +7 +3 +3 1d10 DR 2/-, cheap shot(-2/-2) 11 +11 +7 +3 +3 1d10 Combat style mastery 12 +12 +8 +4 +4 2d6 +3 natural armor 13 +13 +8 +4 +4 2d6 DR 3/- 14 +14 +9 +4 +4 2d6 Cheap shot(-1/-1) 15 +15 +9 +5 +5 2d6 Iron Fist (adamantine) 16 +16 +10 +5 +5 2d8 DR 4/-, +4 natural armor 17 +17 +10 +5 +5 2d8 18 +18 +11 +6 +6 2d8 Cheap shot(-0/-0) 19 +19 +11 +6 +6 2d8 DR 5/- 20 +20 +12 +6 +6 2d10 Iron fist (epic and aligned), +5 natural armor Example combat styles: Thug: Power Attack, Improved Grapple, Improved Disarm. Boxer: Two-weapon Fighting, Imp. Two-Weapon, Greater Two-Weapon. Technique: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Superior Combat Expertise. Thrown Weapon Style: Quick Draw(thrown weapons only); Ranged Power Attack; Throw Anything Fast Movement is as barbarian, and is lost in the same situations. Unarmed attack and damage are identical to the monk. The classes' levels are totalled when multiclassing to obtain the total damage. Iron Fist allows the Brawler to circumvent various damage reductions, based on his body hardening techniques, as his blows eventually become as hard as metal weapons, until eventually becoming independently and extremely magical. Cheap Shot(Ex): The brawler is accustomed to fighting in back alleys and bars, and has learned that the quickest way to victory is to fight dirty. Using headbutts, low blows, knees to the gut, and other underhanded moves has become second nature to the brawler. This allows him to make one extra unarmed attack as part of a full attack. This extra attack is taken at a -2 penalty, and all other attacks made this round suffer the same penalty. This penalty decreases to -1 at 14th level, and disappears entirely at 18th level. If the brawler has any levels in monk, he may combine the cheap shot ability with his flurry of blows; penalties from these two abilities stack.
TyraaloftheFist 12-17-04, 09:15 PM	I like it...but I would drop the armor, period. And give it a movement boost/AC bonus thing, and boost the HP to d12s for maximum brawlerness. They can get really close, really fast, are hard to hurt, and can crush a skull with one hand by 20th level...I love it, actually. Sorry if my mods make it seem like a monk with higher HP, but they seem different enough to me...
Callahan 12-18-04, 02:44 AM	you know you could work around the latened flurry of blows by adding them earlier and with a constitution boos in the form of a Rage type ability. It would add to the wild flavour of this class and ballance the unarmed capability. I also think that Ki strike is slightly innapropriate for this class.
JasperDm 12-18-04, 03:22 AM	Okay, what I'm NOT going to do. 1)Give the Brawler a # of times/day ability. 2)Nor any other ability that has him enter some other state of being or mind, like rage or frenzy or surge. What I will do: 1)Re-examine ki strike. Frankly, the mechanic is there for the flavor of beating down things with your fists. Very Juggernaut. However, ki strike(magic) is too supernatural. I'm replacing it with (silver), and moving it much farther down the chart, to eliminate and replace Greater Flurry. 6 attacks per round for a street thug IS ridiculous...
carnifexpuer 12-18-04, 02:07 PM	I always wanted a nonlawful monk character, so I have to love this class. Ki strike should stay, IMHO since there are quite a few PrC's that require Ki strike that fit perfectly, such as Drunken Monk (doesn't seem a very lawful profession, does it?). My favorite deity, Kord, needs a good unarmed class. However, having Ki strike: magic at 20th level is a little late for it to be useful. Except for wearing gauntlets and an wearing an amulet that isn't even in the DMG, unarmed strikes can't be magic weapons at all, so Magic Ki Strike should be earlier. By the time a brawler hits lvl 20, he's running into DR #/Epic.
Wexquif 02-18-05, 09:13 AM	Glad that I finally found someone who did this.
Nephlite 02-18-05, 09:19 AM	Brawler(unarmed barbarian) The brawler is the opposite of the monk, the kind of mean scrapper you might find starting an alley brawl, rather than being caught in one. d10 Hit Dice Simple weapons, light armor, no shields Skills and skill points as barbarian Lv BAB F / R / W Unarmed Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 1d6 Fast movement 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 1d6 Uncanny Dodge, Combat Style 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 1d6 Ki strike(silver) 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 1d8 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 1d8 Improved uncanny dodge 6 +6 +5 +2 +2 1d8 Improved combat style 7 +7 +5 +2 +2 1d8 DR 1/- 8 +8 +6 +2 +2 1d10 9 +9 +6 +3 +3 1d10 Ki strike(cold iron) 10 +10 +7 +3 +3 1d10 DR 2/-, flurry of blows(-2/-2) 11 +11 +7 +3 +3 1d10 Combat style mastery 12 +12 +8 +4 +4 2d6 13 +13 +8 +4 +4 2d6 DR 3/- 14 +14 +9 +4 +4 2d6 Improved flurry(-1/-1) 15 +15 +9 +5 +5 2d6 Ki strike(adamantine) 16 +16 +10 +5 +5 2d8 DR 4/- 17 +17 +10 +5 +5 2d8 18 +18 +11 +6 +6 2d8 Improve flurry(-0/-0) 19 +19 +11 +6 +6 2d8 DR 5/- 20 +20 +12 +6 +6 2d10 Ki strike(magic) Example combat styles: Thug: Power Attack, Improved Grapple, Improved Disarm. Boxer: Two-weapon Fighting, Imp. Two-Weapon, Greater Two-Weapon. Technique: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Superior Combat Expertise. Can he uses improved unarmed damage with Guantlets? If not why?
LordPerrinOfNeomegaDotNet 03-10-05, 03:14 AM	It needs one more thing... a companion template to give the creature fast healing, critical immunity, immunity to death-by-massive-damage, track-by-scent, ability to freely multiclass between brawler and samurai, and ability to treat your unarmed strike as a slashing-or-piercing weapon actually made of the metals it bypasses DR as. ;)
JasperDm 03-10-05, 10:28 AM	You know, that made absolutely no sense to me as presented, but if you swap out samurai for ranger, and make it an attachment prestige class... that might be cool.
JasperDm 03-10-05, 10:36 AM	Can he uses improved unarmed damage with Guantlets? If not why? By the rules of the game, he couldn't. The gauntlets are a weapon, and attacks made with them, say, to gain advantage of a flaming or +2 enchantment, would do gauntlet damage. If you turned around and kicked, you'd do unarmed. However, I direct your attention to the amulet of mighty fists, x3 the cost of a weapon, so, 1.5 more than a pair of gauntlets, and cheaper than gaunts and boots together, and can give you some sweet Street fighter-esque effects on your brawling, and work on all unarmed attacks. Headbutts, knee strikes...you name it.
Elendur 03-10-05, 10:57 AM	I've tried this several times myself. Firstly, I think full BAB and flurry is a no-no. By fast movement I assume you mean barbarian fast movement, not monk. An unarmed fighter needs something to bypass magic DR, it's just too common. Arcana Unearthed's Oathsworn has something called shattering strike, which bypasses any DR and object hardness in small but increasing amounts. You might try something like that. But really, though 'ki' is the wrong flavor, it's the right mechanic. I'd go with magic and adamantine. Silver and cold iron are pretty exotic and don't make sense for a brawler. I would keep the light armor. With the monks Wis bonus to AC and unarmored bonus, and without the Barb's rage and d12, he's going to be hurting in the defense department. What about Con bonus to AC? Is that crazy? Another thing I'd like to see is that 'use anything as a weapon' feat, for throwing chairs around and whatnot.
JasperDm 03-10-05, 11:14 AM	I've tried this several times myself. Firstly, I think full BAB and flurry is a no-no. Noted, mine has no greater flurry, just the one attack that becomes free. By fast movement I assume you mean barbarian fast movement, not monk. Correct. An unarmed fighter needs something to bypass magic DR, it's just too common. Arcana Unearthed's Oathsworn has something called shattering strike, which bypasses any DR and object hardness in small but increasing amounts. You might try something like that. But really, though 'ki' is the wrong flavor, it's the right mechanic. I'd go with magic and adamantine. Silver and cold iron are pretty exotic and don't make sense for a brawler. Actually, this is a major part of the flavor of the class, representing harder and harder metals. Magic can be acquired considerably earlier with 6,000 gold for an amulet of mighty fists +1. I would keep the light armor. With the monks Wis bonus to AC and unarmored bonus, and without the Barb's rage and d12, he's going to be hurting in the defense department. Thank you. Glad you like it. What about Con bonus to AC? Is that crazy? Trying to avoid "stat to AC". One of the things I really don't want in here. Another thing I'd like to see is that 'use anything as a weapon' feat, for throwing chairs around and whatnot. Throw anything feat, Complete Warrior. Also contains rules for improvised weapons. Drunken Master has a ton of abilities related to it. There ya go.
LordPerrinOfNeomegaDotNet 03-10-05, 03:05 PM	You know, that made absolutely no sense to me as presented Okay, the template would also give you subtype: mutant. Clear now... bub? :P
JasperDm 03-10-05, 03:09 PM	Okay, the template would also give you subtype: mutant. Clear now... bub? :P Ah, crappy wolverine reference. I was thinking you meant an animal companion who attacks with you, like in several fighting games. I gave you more credit than you deserved I see. My bad.
LordPerrinOfNeomegaDotNet 03-11-05, 06:55 PM	Jeez, why the hostility over a simple half-jest? Well, since you clearly despise humor, I'll be completely serious with the following suggestions: 1) You need to clarify how the flurry works. Since this class doesn't get proficiency with special monk weapons, can it only flurry with its unarmed strike? Or can it work with any weapon the character gains proficiency with? 2) I'd fully codify the combat styles, to prevent nosense like somebody making up one that gives metamagic feats. 3) Along with the above, a ranged combat style would be nice, but instead of archery it'd be based around hurled weapons - it could give brutal throw, power throw, and throw anything, and maybe include a provision that brawlers who take the ranged style can apply their flurry to hurled weapons, provided they have enough stuff to throw.
JasperDm 03-11-05, 07:14 PM	Jeez, why the hostility over a simple half-jest? Well, since you clearly despise humor, I'll be completely serious with the following suggestions: I have no problem with humor, though I prefer seriousness in my threads. I just have no respect for Wolverine. 1) You need to clarify how the flurry works. Since this class doesn't get proficiency with special monk weapons, can it only flurry with its unarmed strike? Or can it work with any weapon the character gains proficiency with? Yes, I do need to come back and finish this. And he can flurry with this ability with any weapon, but it doesn't open up a monk's flurry (x/-0/-0) to do the same. 2) I'd fully codify the combat styles, to prevent nosense like somebody making up one that gives metamagic feats. Yes, I should, a few suggestions would be appreciated. 3) Along with the above, a ranged combat style would be nice, but instead of archery it'd be based around hurled weapons - it could give brutal throw, power throw, and throw anything, and maybe include a provision that brawlers who take the ranged style can apply their flurry to hurled weapons, provided they have enough stuff to throw. A fine idea. I think I'll put that up soon.
The_Iceman 03-12-05, 03:18 AM	I know you said you wanted to avoid a plus to AC kinda thing, but I think a brawler is generally pretty thick-skinned, so you might try giving them a natural armor bonus, rather than proficiency with light armor. I just really don't see a brawler running around in a chain shirt, just doesn't seem to fit. Also, a brawler seems a bit more of a city guy than the barbarian, so you might change a couple of the skills. Maybe drop Handle Animal and Ride, and add Knowledge(local) and Tumble, or just add those two. I like the suggestion of a Thrown Weapon combat style, too. That would be pretty cool. The flurry of blows ability could probably be dropped, too. Other than those couple of things, this class is pretty awesome. I may use this for my next character.
runestar 03-12-05, 04:25 AM	There's a raging monk variant in one of the splatbooks somewhere, I think. You can look to it for inspiration.
JasperDm 03-12-05, 05:13 AM	I know you said you wanted to avoid a plus to AC kinda thing, but I think a brawler is generally pretty thick-skinned, so you might try giving them a natural armor bonus, rather than proficiency with light armor. I just really don't see a brawler running around in a chain shirt, just doesn't seem to fit. Also, a brawler seems a bit more of a city guy than the barbarian, so you might change a couple of the skills. Maybe drop Handle Animal and Ride, and add Knowledge(local) and Tumble, or just add those two. I like the suggestion of a Thrown Weapon combat style, too. That would be pretty cool. The flurry of blows ability could probably be dropped, too. Other than those couple of things, this class is pretty awesome. I may use this for my next character. Hm, skills are a fine place to examine for speciality. Sense Motive, and Knowledge (Local) could be very good. In fact, as your advice goes, lets move these two in for Handle Animal and Ride. Thanks for the advice, you have made an impact on my class. A little natural armor, but not keyed to a stat, might be good. If thrown in at +1 increments, how much would you recommend by 20th level, with this build? Thrown Weapon Style: Quick Draw(thrown weapons only); Ranged Power Attack; Throw Anything Flurry stays, as is. It allows a dedicated Brawler to really surprise someone with a attack out of left field. Like a headbutt, or knee to the groin. And I like it. One free cheap shot with an unarmed attack, no matter what you're weilding, is good. Which I should define the flurry attack as, specifically. An unarmed attack during a full attack. Might eliminate some issues. Think I'll even rename it Cheap Shot, so as to discourage the belief that it's usable to get a free swing with a greatsword or dire pick somehow.
Nephlite 03-12-05, 09:04 AM	Hm, skills are a fine place to examine for speciality. Sense Motive, and Knowledge (Local) could be very good. In fact, as your advice goes, lets move these two in for Handle Animal and Ride. Thanks for the advice, you have made an impact on my class. A little natural armor, but not keyed to a stat, might be good. If thrown in at +1 increments, how much would you recommend by 20th level, with this build? Thrown Weapon Style: Quick Draw(thrown weapons only); Ranged Power Attack; Throw Anything Flurry stays, as is. It allows a dedicated Brawler to really surprise someone with a attack out of left field. Like a headbutt, or knee to the groin. And I like it. One free cheap shot with an unarmed attack, no matter what you're weilding, is good. Which I should define the flurry attack as, specifically. An unarmed attack during a full attack. Might eliminate some issues. Think I'll even rename it Cheap Shot, so as to discourage the belief that it's usable to get a free swing with a greatsword or dire pick somehow. The most important question that everybody forgets: Is it proficient with unarmed strike? Monks are not proficent with unarmed strike. I'd assume the Brawler is.
JasperDm 03-12-05, 01:05 PM	Actually, all creatures are proficient with unarmed strikes. And if that weren't true, they're still listed as simple, light weapons in the weapons chart, which his simple weapons proficiency would cover. Furthermore, as you will note on the latest revision, the monk and brawler both recieve the Unarmed Combat ability, which grants better than Improved Unarmed Combat.
The_Iceman 03-13-05, 02:12 AM	One other thing I thought of: you might put an alignment restriction of any non-lawful to the class. A brawler would be someone who doesn't really train or meditate like a monk, they just fight using whatever they can get hold of. Do the natural armor increase every fourth level starting at fourth, or every fifth level starting at 5th. Something like that...the monk is at every 5th level, so that might be a good start. Cheap Shot(Ex): The brawler is accustomed to fighting in back alleys and bars, and has learned that the quickest way to victory is to fight dirty. Using headbutts, low blows, knees to the gut, and other underhanded moves has become second nature to the brawler. This allows him to make one extra unarmed attack as part of a full attack. This extra attack is taken at a -2 penalty, and all other attacks made this round suffer the same penalty. This penalty decreases to -1 at 14th level, and disappears entirely at 18th level. If the brawler has any levels in monk, he may combine the cheap shot ability with his flurry of blows; penalties from these two abilities stack. How's that look?
LordPerrinOfNeomegaDotNet 03-13-05, 04:30 AM	Eh, I'm of the opinion that only classes that grant magical/supernatural abilities should have alignment or multiclassing restrictions (yes, this means I think the alignment restriction on Barbarian should be dropped in the next revision - anyone who's heard of the Crusades can tell you barbarism and the LG outlook can go hand-in-hand). When you boil it down, all a non-magic-related class is, is a chosen fighting style, which really has no bearing on your moral outlook. Who says you can't fight dirty in order to most-efficiently serve a lawful end? Certainly not Jack Bauer...
LordPerrinOfNeomegaDotNet 03-13-05, 04:55 AM	Oh, and one little thing I feel needs to be addressed about the Ki Strike (now Iron Fist) ability: An unarmed fighter needs something to bypass magic DR, it's just too common. Arcana Unearthed's Oathsworn has something called shattering strike, which bypasses any DR and object hardness in small but increasing amounts. You might try something like that. But really, though 'ki' is the wrong flavor, it's the right mechanic. I'd go with magic and adamantine. Silver and cold iron are pretty exotic and don't make sense for a brawler. Actually, this is a major part of the flavor of the class, representing harder and harder metals. Magic can be acquired considerably earlier with 6,000 gold for an amulet of mighty fists +1. The thing is, things whose DR weaknesses are silver and cold iron aren't generally weak to those substances because of their hardness; if they were, they'd also be weak to adamantite. They have weaknesses to those substances because of their alchemical properties - silver, being associated with the holy, harms lycanthropes, the undead, and the like, and cold iron, being resistant to and even supressive of magic, harms things that have "magic in their blood." Simply making your fists harder (which, by the way, is an aspect of real-world martial arts - practitioners subject their knuckles to long sessions of repititive blows that create hairline fractures, which then fill in with solid calcium, as opposed to the usual spongy structure of bone- so I don't consider it a supernatural aspect in the case of this class) could duplicate the effect of adamantite, but not these substances. So, on the one hand, keeping the ability contradicts the flavor of the class (unless I'm misinterpreting it - for the record, I percieve it to be [monk - supernatural mumbo-jumbo - warrior-philosopher shtick - asian mystique - any semblance of honor + booze + swearing + overall bad attitude which may or may not conceal a heart of gold]), while on the other, removing it would severely hinder the playability of the class at mid-high levels. :-/
JasperDm 03-13-05, 01:16 PM	One other thing I thought of: you might put an alignment restriction of any non-lawful to the class. A brawler would be someone who doesn't really train or meditate like a monk, they just fight using whatever they can get hold of. Do the natural armor increase every fourth level starting at fourth, or every fifth level starting at 5th. Something like that...the monk is at every 5th level, so that might be a good start. Cheap Shot(Ex): The brawler is accustomed to fighting in back alleys and bars, and has learned that the quickest way to victory is to fight dirty. Using headbutts, low blows, knees to the gut, and other underhanded moves has become second nature to the brawler. This allows him to make one extra unarmed attack as part of a full attack. This extra attack is taken at a -2 penalty, and all other attacks made this round suffer the same penalty. This penalty decreases to -1 at 14th level, and disappears entirely at 18th level. If the brawler has any levels in monk, he may combine the cheap shot ability with his flurry of blows; penalties from these two abilities stack. How's that look? Good enough to steal. New edit is up.
JasperDm 03-13-05, 01:35 PM	Okay, the flavor of this class. Every Tekken fighter, Street Fighter, Mortal Kombatant, etc, that doesn't fall under some other class, can be attempted with this. Need Zangief? This'll do it. It can be anyone from the wickedest, most heartless thieve's guild legbreaker, to one of those "I want to be the champion" arena guys who might as well multiclass with paladin. The class places non-spiritual, small crowd unarmed combat at your disposal. Unlike it's kin, the barbarian, he doesn't lose his cool and burn out too fast. Unlike the rogue, his accuracy is more dependable, but less severe. The monk might match him blow for blow, but when the adventure comes round, his spiritual powers will leave him in the dust. Unlike my martial artist, which leans more towards the formal training, the Brawler is a fighter, not an artist. But his will can put his blows into categories people might not expect. He can stand toe to toe with a wererat, in a brawl. Later, a golem might fall to his fists, and eventually, even fiends (or angels) will recoil from his blows. The class is now very combat-independant. He can stand next to a fighter, barbarian, monk, or rogue and hold his own. He can even give a good show to rangers, paladins, spellthieves and hexblades. He can beat a crowd of thugs himself, and probably come out alright.
The_Iceman 03-13-05, 07:13 PM	Eh, I'm of the opinion that only classes that grant magical/supernatural abilities should have alignment or multiclassing restrictions (yes, this means I think the alignment restriction on Barbarian should be dropped in the next revision - anyone who's heard of the Crusades can tell you barbarism and the LG outlook can go hand-in-hand). When you boil it down, all a non-magic-related class is, is a chosen fighting style, which really has no bearing on your moral outlook. Who says you can't fight dirty in order to most-efficiently serve a lawful end? Certainly not Jack Bauer... Jack Bauer certainly doesn't always fight within the law. He fights for the cause of good and right, but I certainly wouldn't consider him a lawful guy. There's a difference.
tiluvias99 03-13-05, 09:01 PM	seems a litle over powered to me, if compared to the barbarian. I would suggest trying to balance it off that, as it is the most similar. On to the abililities themselves... How do you explain the massive unarmed damage? increased damage dice is represented by weapons getting either bigger, heavier, or sharper, which does not happen to any one's fists (well perhaps, but not nearly to that extent, perhaps 1d4 or 1d6 at the most). The monk has crazy ki stuff going for him to explain his massive damage dice. Learning how to hit faster, stronger, or more accurately to deal more damage is represented through damage bonuses, such as with the weapon specialization feat. Learning how to strike your opponent in pressure points or weak spots is represented through sneak attack damage. if you kept his damage dice at d3 and added a bonus to his unarmed damage equal to 1/2 his class level, the averages would be almost the same as with the monk, but would make more sense. For your iron fist abilities, Those still seem a little more mystical than this class should be (at least in my view of what a brawler should be). I would suggest removing them. this gives the brawler an incentive to actually use weapons. hell, any brawler or boxer type would probably use a club/axe/sword/whatever if it was available rather than just using his fists. Yet unarmed combat is still a big part of this class, so they do need an ability that allows them to deal with DR. just give them an ability like this: piercing strike: the brawler ignores the first 5 points of damage reduction an opponent has (all types) when attacking with his fists. or you could have it scale, like +1/2 levels. I like cheap shot. two things though: -if our brawler is attacking with a weapon, can he still make an extra unarmed attack? -based on the flavor text in cheap shot, i would suggest allowing the brawler to make a bluff check before the attack (opposed by sense motive). if he wins, his cheap shot attack denies the opponent their dex bonus to AC. Armor: if I was a brawler, I'd just take one level of fighter (or spend a couple feats) and go around in adamantite full plate with a tower shield. I still deal the same damage, I keep my natural armor, and I keep my DR (which is enhanced from the armor). The one thing I lose is Fast movement. While flavor wise, it makes perfect sense that he wouldn't lose anything from throwing on some armor (if he was proficient in its use) because none of his abilities are magical, this is broken. Im not sure how this would be fixed, but it is something that needs to be taken into consideration. I would suggest giving them a good reflex save. Can he uses improved unarmed damage with Guantlets? If not why? see the link in my sig. [review fishing]Also in my sig is my own unarmed fighter, which while it definitely has a different feel, may have some things in it that could work with this class. [/review fishing] hope this helps, tiluvias
Elendur 03-14-05, 12:33 PM	Rats, I had posted a level by level comparison with the monk and barbarian, up to 5th level, but somehow the post got eaten. The gist of it was I thought the brawler was weaker than either of those two. I see you've added DR magic and adamantine, and a natural armor bonus. I still don't like the flurry ability(why would cheap shot stack with a monk ability?). I don't like the other DR bypass abilities either. They just don't make sense, flavorwise. Still, powerwise it's closer than it was.
LordPerrinOfNeomegaDotNet 03-17-05, 09:23 PM	My DM says it's overpowered to have both DR and natural armor. Ironic, since the NA was added because people were complaining it was gimped on the defensive end. Anyway, here's a comparison to refute that assertion: Defensive features kept from Barb: DR, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, good Fort save, light armor. Defensive features lost from Barb: d12 HD, Trap Sense, Indomitable Will, Rage (more an offensive feature, but it does give temp. hitpoints and an extra incentive to have high Con beyond just higher HP total) Defensive features kept from Monk: Uh... good fort save? Oh wait, that's under Barb too. Well, at least the HD is one step up... Defensive features lost from Monk: All saves good, Wis to AC, AC bonus, Evasion, Still Mind, Slow Fall, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Improved Evasion, Diamond Body, Diamond Soul, Empty Body (not purely defensive, but certainly has defensive applications), Perfect Self. See, if you consider Barb the starting point, it gives up half its defensive measures to get nothing. If you consider Monk the starting point, it gives up everything to get not much. Natural armor doesn't even half-way close the gap. As for taking away the light armor, all that does is make sure every brawler takes a one-level dip in fighter - oh look, now he gets full plate.
tiluvias99 03-17-05, 09:35 PM	compared to barbarian: -he loses 1 hit point/level- equal to one feat (improved toughness). -trap sense- not very useful in my opinion. -indomitable will- useful, probably equal to one feat. -rage- +2 to attack rolls, damage rolls, and hp/level, +2 will saves, -2 AC, eventually becomes +4 to attack/damage/hp/will. he gains: -an unsunderable, undisarmable, always available weapon that deals more damage than any other weapon. -three bonus feats, almost all of which are highly useful -one extra attack per round -the ability to strike through almost all types of DR with a single weapon -natural armor doesn't add up to me.
LordPerrinOfNeomegaDotNet 03-18-05, 12:22 AM	Sure it does. One, Rage is a huge thing to give up when you're using Barb as the start point - it is after all the class' defining feature - and two, everything you said is just as much an argument that the Barb is gimped next to the Monk.