Breaking Up The Cleric Class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Breaking Up The Cleric Class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Alovar
11-09-04, 02:16 PM I find the cleric class a bit troubling. How can it be that clerics of Boccob, Obad-Hai and Erythnull are exactly the same, when it comes to base attack bonus, saves, weapon profieciencies, spells, and abilities. There is a difference when it comes to domains and spontaneous casting, but I think it's not enough.
How can I make clerics of different deities different from each other in more important ways? And please, if you're answering this, please relate not to specific Greyhawk gods (Boccob, Heironeous, etc.) but to general gods (god of war, god of nature), since I don't use the normal pantheon but an invented one.
Uber Goblin
11-09-04, 02:47 PM well, I personaly have a beef with clerics in general. I find them rather broken since they get spells, good BAB and great fort and will saves + no arcane failure in armor AND really heavy armor.

I think they are broken.

now, to add some flavor.

Try making the Clerics of the magic gods get thier spells from CHA, or they could spontaniously cast all thier spells. Perhaps even add some wizard spells to thier spell list. Take away thier good BAB and thier armor as well.

God's of nature...druid :)

God's of war: I think the cleric was built for this, period. If you don't belive me look at the spells divine power and rightious might...

Healers verses Clerics.

I use healers in the last campaign I ran. They have bad BAB and only light armor proficiency. They don't have to answear to a diety though, and can learn other spells and even research new spells as well. Very similure to a wizard wo can heal.

Perhaps for a god of healing you can give the cleric a huge AC deflection bonus. Take away all its armor and BAB, give it fanominal saves and lay on hands that are double and give it a vow of peace :) You can have this hippy dance around the battle feild healing up the party while the archers of the enemy are going ape sh*t trying to take em down :)

just a few thoughts
CrimsonRyoko
11-09-04, 04:00 PM First ill say that 75% of a cleric should be ::gasp:: ROLEPLAY!!! I know, its a scary thing for most, but it can be done!!!!! If you want to be a Cleric of healing then heal alot and be peaceful(or not, but thats a common stereotype), if you wanna be a cleric of war, then be all combat oriented, of nature go with elemental and healing spells, maybe some more nature geared ones. Domains and Skills also help to compliment roleplaying.

Secondly this is most easily covered with PrC's - they make you more of a cleric in a specific way. Up to the point of the PrC you pretty much know the faith, and have been thru basic training (levels 1-5/6)

Finally, if you really MUST be different, heres some options:
**The Cloistered Cleric from UA is perfect for any Magic based god for a cleric.
**Regular cleric is good for a cleric of war, just restrict the Domains a little more.
**For a Nature based one. . . just change the flavor of a druid, they get healing and such anyhow. I really cant see how a Cleric could really turn to Nature too much without stepping on a Druids Toes.
**For Healing go with the Healer class, and pretend you have a god.
legowarrior
11-09-04, 05:00 PM Don't forget all the new ones from the complete divine. The favored soul works well for more combat oriented clerics. You have to be prepared for anything.
Personally, I have to agree a bit through. in 2 edition, as unbalanced and complex as it was, you could have specific priests, and kits. The domains really don't do enough to individualize the clerics faith.
Sure you could duel class to get more of a feel, like fighter clerics, or bard clerics, but then you lose out.

Maybe its just me.
shadow mage
11-09-04, 08:17 PM I would tend to agree except...well, one very major problem.

Every faith has its warrior priests. Every faith has its healers (or equivalents). Every faith has its leaders/inspirers/tyrants. While it would be a good idea at first glance to say (for example) "Gods of war grant full BAB and high Fort save, gods of healing grant lower BAB and high Will," consider that even the most martial faith has dedicated priests who focus their divine "gifts" to healing those wounded in battle. Even lawful good healers and helpers have to raise arms every once in a while.

In that light, I suppose the class's base abilities are fine as they are. They represent the ultimate middle ground. I do agree with Uber Goblin, but only because of specific features of their spellcasting. If clerics did NOT have access to arcane spells, with the exception of a few, that would certainly balance the class out as far as "superior spellcasting". Take away the d8 and give it a d6, leave the saves and skills as they are, take away arcane spells from their list, and limit their armor proficiencies and you'd have a balanced class, but I won't detract from the main topic any more. ;)
Sensei Gith
11-09-04, 09:20 PM I'd just write up a PrC for each deity. make the requirements simple: five spellcasting levels, a specific religion, and some skills, possible a feat, so that the majority of a deity's clerics could qualify. The Radiant Servant of Pelor is sort of what I'm aiming for here.
legowarrior
11-09-04, 09:43 PM Agreed, but the one thing I never liked about clerics is the turn undead. Why should I be forced to combat one specific threat in such a generic class? Why should certain dieties even care about the undead. The UA gives an alternative, Smite ability, but that doesn't really do it for me.
I think the biggest grief that clerics get is just the lack of cool abilities. Only 4 classes don't get really cool abilities, (By which I mean, any abilities that are added later on) Wizards (Whole still get free feats) Sorcerers, Clerics and Fighters (Who also get free feats).
baoban sith
11-10-04, 09:34 AM I say go back to 2Es Spheres of Influence. It wasn't a very clunky system (in fact, the only time it took up much space at all was in deity descriptions, and domain listings are even less space efficient) and it would help to nerf the cleric a bit.
wereooze
11-11-04, 06:16 PM Back to the 2nd. Edit. system!

*Blunt force weaponry only! (This is being houseruled into my new campaign).
legowarrior
11-11-04, 06:23 PM Just get rid of turn undead, my cleric of azuth doesn't like turn undead. Or better yet, give a list of similar abilities, like the domains do. If you don't want turn undead, Get a minor spell ability that can be used the same amount of times, with charisma being the limiting factor. Maybe clerics of Tymora can bless people instead of turning undead, or finder's clerics can use some of the bard abilities. Individualize the clerics.
Thermanshs
11-11-04, 10:07 PM Alovar...the exact same question rose up to my mind about a year ago...so I started THIS (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=220091) Take a look and tell me what you think

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alovar 11-09-04, 02:16 PM	I find the cleric class a bit troubling. How can it be that clerics of Boccob, Obad-Hai and Erythnull are exactly the same, when it comes to base attack bonus, saves, weapon profieciencies, spells, and abilities. There is a difference when it comes to domains and spontaneous casting, but I think it's not enough. How can I make clerics of different deities different from each other in more important ways? And please, if you're answering this, please relate not to specific Greyhawk gods (Boccob, Heironeous, etc.) but to general gods (god of war, god of nature), since I don't use the normal pantheon but an invented one.
Uber Goblin 11-09-04, 02:47 PM	well, I personaly have a beef with clerics in general. I find them rather broken since they get spells, good BAB and great fort and will saves + no arcane failure in armor AND really heavy armor. I think they are broken. now, to add some flavor. Try making the Clerics of the magic gods get thier spells from CHA, or they could spontaniously cast all thier spells. Perhaps even add some wizard spells to thier spell list. Take away thier good BAB and thier armor as well. God's of nature...druid :) God's of war: I think the cleric was built for this, period. If you don't belive me look at the spells divine power and rightious might... Healers verses Clerics. I use healers in the last campaign I ran. They have bad BAB and only light armor proficiency. They don't have to answear to a diety though, and can learn other spells and even research new spells as well. Very similure to a wizard wo can heal. Perhaps for a god of healing you can give the cleric a huge AC deflection bonus. Take away all its armor and BAB, give it fanominal saves and lay on hands that are double and give it a vow of peace :) You can have this hippy dance around the battle feild healing up the party while the archers of the enemy are going ape sh*t trying to take em down :) just a few thoughts
CrimsonRyoko 11-09-04, 04:00 PM	First ill say that 75% of a cleric should be ::gasp:: ROLEPLAY!!! I know, its a scary thing for most, but it can be done!!!!! If you want to be a Cleric of healing then heal alot and be peaceful(or not, but thats a common stereotype), if you wanna be a cleric of war, then be all combat oriented, of nature go with elemental and healing spells, maybe some more nature geared ones. Domains and Skills also help to compliment roleplaying. Secondly this is most easily covered with PrC's - they make you more of a cleric in a specific way. Up to the point of the PrC you pretty much know the faith, and have been thru basic training (levels 1-5/6) Finally, if you really MUST be different, heres some options: The Cloistered Cleric from UA is perfect for any Magic based god for a cleric. Regular cleric is good for a cleric of war, just restrict the Domains a little more. For a Nature based one. . . just change the flavor of a druid, they get healing and such anyhow. I really cant see how a Cleric could really turn to Nature too much without stepping on a Druids Toes. For Healing go with the Healer class, and pretend you have a god.
legowarrior 11-09-04, 05:00 PM	Don't forget all the new ones from the complete divine. The favored soul works well for more combat oriented clerics. You have to be prepared for anything. Personally, I have to agree a bit through. in 2 edition, as unbalanced and complex as it was, you could have specific priests, and kits. The domains really don't do enough to individualize the clerics faith. Sure you could duel class to get more of a feel, like fighter clerics, or bard clerics, but then you lose out. Maybe its just me.
shadow mage 11-09-04, 08:17 PM	I would tend to agree except...well, one very major problem. Every faith has its warrior priests. Every faith has its healers (or equivalents). Every faith has its leaders/inspirers/tyrants. While it would be a good idea at first glance to say (for example) "Gods of war grant full BAB and high Fort save, gods of healing grant lower BAB and high Will," consider that even the most martial faith has dedicated priests who focus their divine "gifts" to healing those wounded in battle. Even lawful good healers and helpers have to raise arms every once in a while. In that light, I suppose the class's base abilities are fine as they are. They represent the ultimate middle ground. I do agree with Uber Goblin, but only because of specific features of their spellcasting. If clerics did NOT have access to arcane spells, with the exception of a few, that would certainly balance the class out as far as "superior spellcasting". Take away the d8 and give it a d6, leave the saves and skills as they are, take away arcane spells from their list, and limit their armor proficiencies and you'd have a balanced class, but I won't detract from the main topic any more. ;)
Sensei Gith 11-09-04, 09:20 PM	I'd just write up a PrC for each deity. make the requirements simple: five spellcasting levels, a specific religion, and some skills, possible a feat, so that the majority of a deity's clerics could qualify. The Radiant Servant of Pelor is sort of what I'm aiming for here.
legowarrior 11-09-04, 09:43 PM	Agreed, but the one thing I never liked about clerics is the turn undead. Why should I be forced to combat one specific threat in such a generic class? Why should certain dieties even care about the undead. The UA gives an alternative, Smite ability, but that doesn't really do it for me. I think the biggest grief that clerics get is just the lack of cool abilities. Only 4 classes don't get really cool abilities, (By which I mean, any abilities that are added later on) Wizards (Whole still get free feats) Sorcerers, Clerics and Fighters (Who also get free feats).
baoban sith 11-10-04, 09:34 AM	I say go back to 2Es Spheres of Influence. It wasn't a very clunky system (in fact, the only time it took up much space at all was in deity descriptions, and domain listings are even less space efficient) and it would help to nerf the cleric a bit.
wereooze 11-11-04, 06:16 PM	Back to the 2nd. Edit. system! *Blunt force weaponry only! (This is being houseruled into my new campaign).
legowarrior 11-11-04, 06:23 PM	Just get rid of turn undead, my cleric of azuth doesn't like turn undead. Or better yet, give a list of similar abilities, like the domains do. If you don't want turn undead, Get a minor spell ability that can be used the same amount of times, with charisma being the limiting factor. Maybe clerics of Tymora can bless people instead of turning undead, or finder's clerics can use some of the bard abilities. Individualize the clerics.
Thermanshs 11-11-04, 10:07 PM	Alovar...the exact same question rose up to my mind about a year ago...so I started THIS (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=220091) Take a look and tell me what you think