Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Legacy-Warrior 11-02-04, 03:07 AM	Well I posted my version of the Ranger a short while ago and I thought it would be great to get some feed-back on it. That snowballed into opening it up to total deconstruction for fun and a new spin on things (hopefully). I figured why not do the same with my Barbarian too? The worst that happens is nobody want's to help. :weep: Kidding. :D Anyway, the goal is to make the standard Barbarian a little more interesting and have some fun in the process. The only two things to keep in mind are: 1) That this is from the perspective of my players and I that we'd like standard classes just as powerful and desireable as prestige classes and thus should be equally potent. Basically 20 levels should have something definatley attractive about it. 2) We aren't munchkins so don't worry about abuse (too much anyway) and just have fun throwing out what you've always wanted in a barbarian! For now let's primarily make a wish-list rather than immediatley jumping to balance. :) Once again I don't know how to make pretty charts but here is my work thus-far. Barbarian HD: 1D12 BAB: Full Progression Saves: 2 / 0 / 0 Progression Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Ride, Spot, Survival, Swim Skill Progression: 4/Lv. + Intelligence Modifier Class Features: All of the following are class features of the barbarian. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A barbarian is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Fast Movement (Ex): A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn. Illiteracy: Barbarians are the only characters who do not automatically know how to read and write. A barbarian may spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write all languages he is able to speak. A barbarian who gains a level in any other class automatically gains literacy. Any other character who gains a barbarian level does not lose the literacy he or she already had. Rage (Ex): A barbarian can fly into a rage a certain number of times per day. In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A barbarian may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (–2 penalty to Strength, –2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies; see below). A barbarian can fly into a rage only once per encounter. At 1st level he can use his rage ability once per day. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, he can use it one additional time per day (to a maximum of six times per day at 20th level). Entering a rage takes no time itself, but a barbarian can do it only during his action, not in response to someone else’s action. Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead. Ambush Sense (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a barbarian gains a +1 (insight) bonus to his AC made to avoid attacks in a surprise round and a +1 bonus to his initiative after a surprise round. These bonuses rise by +1 at 6th and 9th level. Damage Reduction (Ex): At 3rd level, a barbarian gains Damage Reduction. Subtract 1 from the damage the barbarian takes each time he is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack. At 6th level, and every three barbarian levels thereafter (9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level), this damage reduction rises by 1 point. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0. Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a barbarian can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has barbarian levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character. Slayer (Ex): At 7th level the barbarian's pride in his accomplishments swells and may claim a trophy from something he has slain to prove his worth. While wearing this talisman the barbarian gains an additional 3 hit points as the feat Toughness and gains a +1 competence bonus to any Spot, Listen or Survival checks he may make. No Respite (Ex): At 10th level a barbarian may make a free 10ft step on a full attack action instead of the regular 5ft step. Greater Rage (Ex): At 11th level, a barbarian’s bonuses to Strength and Constitution during his rage each increase to +6, and his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +3. The penalty to AC remains at –2. Indomitable Will (Ex): While in a rage, a barbarian of 13th level or higher gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves he also receives during his rage. Greater Slayer (Ex): At 14th level the barbarian begins to see himself as a truly ferocious warrior and may lay claim to an additional trophy from a different creature he has slain. While wearing this talisman the barbarian gains a +1 morale bonus to hit and damage rolls for each three consecutive hits against an opponent in combat. This bonus is carried through the duration of combat and may be transferred to a new opponent when the previous one is slain. Fearless (Ex): At 17th level the barbarian is immune to fear spells, effects and can no longer be intimidated. Tireless Rage (Ex): At 17th level and higher, a barbarian no longer becomes fatigued at the end of his rage. Into The Fray (Ex): At 19th level a barbarian's ferocity approaches its peak and he may make an additional attack when charging. All attacks made in this way receive a -2 penalty. Using this ability also applies a -2 AC penalty. Mighty Rage (Ex): At 20th level, a barbarian’s bonuses to Strength and Constitution during his rage each increase to +8, and his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +4. The penalty to AC remains at –2. Ex-Barbarians A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. He retains all the other benefits of the class (damage reduction, fast movement, ambush sense, and uncanny dodge).
Crazy Runner Guy 11-02-04, 09:22 AM	Slayer (Ex): At 7th level the barbarian's pride in his accomplishments swells and may claim a trophy from something he has slain to prove his worth. While wearing this talisman the barbarian gains an additional 3 hit points as the feat Toughness and gains a +1 competence bonus to any Spot, Listen or Survival checks he may make. This is an excellent idea, but why the +hp those specific skills? Why not grant him a morale bonus (i.e. similar to bless? No Respite (Ex): At 10th level a barbarian may make a free 10ft step on a full attack action instead of the regular 5ft step. Again, a good idea, but what would you do with AoO? Would this movement provoke it? Would you be able to take a 5 ft. step, attack, then another 5 ft. step (ala Spring attack)? Greater Slayer (Ex): At 14th level the barbarian begins to see himself as a truly ferocious warrior and may lay claim to an additional trophy from a different creature he has slain. While wearing this talisman the barbarian gains a +1 morale bonus to hit and damage rolls for each three consecutive hits against an opponent in combat. This bonus is carried through the duration of combat and may be transferred to a new opponent when the previous one is slain. This is more what I have in mind as posted above, but does this mean 3 consecutive hits in one round, one 1 hit in each of three rounds? Good idea though. Into The Fray (Ex): At 19th level a barbarian's ferocity approaches its peak and he may make an additional attack when charging. All attacks made in this way receive a -2 penalty. Again, great idea, but I would suggest the barbarian gets an additional -1 or -2 to AC, and ALL attacks that round and the subsequent round recieve a -2 penalty. Good ideas, crg
Gutzu 11-02-04, 09:27 AM	OK first off prestige classes are supposed to be better than the general classes, that's why they are prestige. If you wanna do something like that anyway why not just let them Gestalt (spelling unsure) the Barb with a fighter or something.
Legacy-Warrior 11-02-04, 12:23 PM	his is an excellent idea, but why the +hp those specific skills? Why not grant him a morale bonus (i.e. similar to bless? They just felt like things that if I were a Barb and I felt proud in what I'd done those are the things I'd likley feel more capable of doing, thus placebo myself into being better at them. Yes they were intended to be morale/competence bonuses but I never could decide how that should work. Again, a good idea, but what would you do with AoO? Would this movement provoke it? Would you be able to take a 5 ft. step, attack, then another 5 ft. step (ala Spring attack)? Good thought. I'd imagine it would provoke an AoO and it'd only be able to be in one direction, thus preserving the flavor (no pun intended) and also the great functionality of the Spring Attack feat. This is more what I have in mind as posted above, but does this mean 3 consecutive hits in one round, one 1 hit in each of three rounds? Good idea though. One round was the intention, thanks for bringing it up to be addressed. I'm thinking that this should also apply to just plain attacks so that we don't have like a disarm, a trip and a regular attack, on second thought I have no idea. Let me know what you think on that? Again, great idea, but I would suggest the barbarian gets an additional -1 or -2 to AC, and ALL attacks that round and the subsequent round recieve a -2 penalty. Good idea. I'm in favor of a -1 AC as it would fit the Barb mentality fairly well. Perhaps a -1 to all attacks in the subsequent round instead of two? or would that be too "track the numbers" like Inspire Courage and best be the suggested -2?
Legacy-Warrior 11-02-04, 12:26 PM	OK first off prestige classes are supposed to be better than the general classes, that's why they are prestige. If you wanna do something like that anyway why not just let them Gestalt (spelling unsure) the Barb with a fighter or something. Fair enough question but I believe that was already explained: The only two things to keep in mind are: 1) That this is from the perspective of my players and I that we'd like standard classes just as powerful and desireable as prestige classes and thus should be equally potent. Basically 20 levels should have something definatley attractive about it. 2) We aren't munchkins so don't worry about abuse (too much anyway) and just have fun throwing out what you've always wanted in a barbarian! All opinions are respected but the right to disagree is one we all have reserved. Any thoughts on the primary subject though?
Crazy Runner Guy 11-02-04, 03:32 PM	Good thought. I'd imagine it would provoke an AoO and it'd only be able to be in one direction, thus preserving the flavor (no pun intended) and also the great functionality of the Spring Attack feat. I really don't know how you would deal with this or what to do with it. How about this: [/quote] No Respite (Ex): At 10th level a barbarian may make a free 10ft step on a full attack action instead of the regular 5ft step. If, in taking his/her second 5 foot step, the barbarian would leave a threatened area and provoke an AoO, the barbarian and the opponent make opposed dexterity checks. If the barbarian wins, no AoO is provoked. If the barbarian loses, the barbarian has provoked an AoO. or No Respite (Ex): At 10th level a barbarian may make a 5 foot step both before and after his/her attack. Neither of these movements provoke AoOs from the opponent you attack. The barbarian may not take both steps before or after the attack (i.e. you can't take a 10 foot step and not provoke an AoO. (It is very similar to spring attack, but it does not require movements both before and after, but it does not allow for one's full movement). The problems with the first one lie with reach weapons. If a barb is using a reach weapon, they can make a full attack, and then move 10 feet back without provoking an AoO. The opponent will then be required to enter their space and provoke an AoO. This is too powerful, expecially with conbat reflexes and imp. trip. One round was the intention, thanks for bringing it up to be addressed. I'm thinking that this should also apply to just plain attacks so that we don't have like a disarm, a trip and a regular attack, on second thought I have no idea. Let me know what you think on that? How about having it operate similar to Dodge where you choose one opponent to have a +1 moral/competenct bonus against (saves, dmg, attacks) while you are raging. Also, you could only apply the bonus to an opponent you are engaged in melee with (keep with barb flavor). Good idea. I'm in favor of a -1 AC as it would fit the Barb mentality fairly well. Perhaps a -1 to all attacks in the subsequent round instead of two? Maybe this is too powerful and needs to be balanced, slightly. I recommend -2 AC (-4 for total of charge), -1 attacks next round (as a recovery factor). crg
Legacy-Warrior 11-02-04, 05:07 PM	No Respite (Ex): At 10th level a barbarian may make a free 10ft step on a full attack action instead of the regular 5ft step. If, in taking his/her second 5 foot step, the barbarian would leave a threatened area and provoke an AoO, the barbarian and the opponent make opposed dexterity checks. If the barbarian wins, no AoO is provoked. If the barbarian loses, the barbarian has provoked an AoO. or No Respite (Ex): At 10th level a barbarian may make a 5 foot step both before and after his/her attack. Neither of these movements provoke AoOs from the opponent you attack. The barbarian may not take both steps before or after the attack (i.e. you can't take a 10 foot step and not provoke an AoO. (It is very similar to spring attack, but it does not require movements both before and after, but it does not allow for one's full movement). The problems with the first one lie with reach weapons. If a barb is using a reach weapon, they can make a full attack, and then move 10 feet back without provoking an AoO. The opponent will then be required to enter their space and provoke an AoO. This is too powerful, expecially with conbat reflexes and imp. trip. Point well taken regarding reach weapons. How about this: No Respite (Ex): At 10th level a barbarian may declare a target for no respite. The barbarian may make a free 10ft step on a full attack action instead of the regular 5ft step if it advances him directly toward the declared target. Movement in this fashion may provoke attacks of opportunity against the barbarian as usual. The barbarain my declare a different target as a free action at the beginning of his turn. How about having it operate similar to Dodge where you choose one opponent to have a +1 moral/competenct bonus against (saves, dmg, attacks) while you are raging. Also, you could only apply the bonus to an opponent you are engaged in melee with (keep with barb flavor). A declared target would definatley work well. I'm not so certain about the + to saves though, it is a bit out of my original intent but also interesting. The raging part I'd agree with as well as the melee part (an oversight on my part). I was hoping to build a momentum kind of ability for his attacks against a single opponent at a time. Maybe this is too powerful and needs to be balanced, slightly. I recommend -2 AC (-4 for total of charge), -1 attacks next round (as a recovery factor). I was actually thinking the opposite to be honest. Trying to scale abilities in line with most PrC's is the trick. Not to out do them but to stand on equal ground. That in mind I don't think getting 2 attacks on a charge instead of 1 at a -2 hit and AC penalty is overpowered for a 19th level character. Let me know if you feel differently and I'm sure we can find a great middle ground. :D