Bringing melee classes on par with ToB [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bringing melee classes on par with ToB [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Droken
10-12-06, 04:13 PM Tome of Battle has brought significant balance back in the hands of melee combatants. Now there's actually good reason to stay true to a melee class instead of swooping in for a few class abilities before moving onto the next class. Examples: Two levels of Fighter, Two or sometimes Three levels of Paladin, One level of Barbarian, Three levels of Knight, etc.. With Tome of Battle, the three martial adepts can enjoy looking forward to higher maneuver progression, something spellcasters have been able to enjoy since the beginning of time. Role playing and flavor asside, why would anyone want to play a paladin, fighter, barbarian, rogue, ranger, or monk ever again? They're simply not comparable to the new classes presented.

Droken's suggested class fixes (a work in progress)

Fighter
- bonus fighter feat every level

*explanation* First 2 levels of Fighter offer feats. People love to dip into them. If the first 2 are balanced, then surely offering a feat every level surely can't be too unbalancing. Now instead of simply being a 2 level dipping class, maybe there'd be incentive to continue the progression. Consider that after 8 levels, a fighter would only have 3 more feats than before. That's hardly much considering an 7th level crusader can add 8D8 to his strikes, which is replenished at the end of every round after waiting out the first couple rounds of combat.

Monk
- Fighter BAB

*explanation* A comparison of damage between the monk and fighter would conclude that the monk gets 2 more attacks than the fighter with this fix at 11th level. The fighter can enchant his weapon however, wheras the monk can usually only benefit from the increasing hit dice of his unarmed damage. It's also argued that a fighter who takes improved grapple outclasses the monk at his own specialty. This fix nips that and will hopefully promote more pugulists.

Rogue
- fighter BAB
- level 7 gains the ability to sneak attack past 20% concealment, still incurs the penalties
- level 10 gains the ability to sneak attack past 50% concealment, still incurs the penalties

*explanation*
What's the point of a rogue being able to deal more damage if his attack bonus is so much lower, thus lowering his DPS (damage per round)? Rogues will still suffer from having low hp and horrible saves. Save or die spells usually target your fort or will. Reflex is usually the least needed of the three. The increase to BAB will allow a rogue to take imp TWF by 6th level instead of 9th, where it can actually be of some use. The rogue will still suffer from the dilema that dealing too much damage will mean the monster will turn to the rogue in a grizzly manner. If you've ever played DDO, you'll agree that the rogue is almost always the first to die or at least the one to die most often. The latter fix should be self explanatory. a 20th level rogue can't sneak attack a 3rd level wizard using a blur spell. Most high level adventurers invest in a minor cloak of displacement.

Ranger
- Acquire *both* weapon styles at each level granted.

*explanation* A ranger who can fight with two weapons and a bow will hardly be overpowering as he can only choose one at a time. This gives them more versatility and versatility usually equates to more fun for the player.

Paladin
- good Fort *and* Will saves
- condense spell list to also include 5th and 6th level spells

*explanation* The paladin, with his conviction towards what is right and wrong, should have the strongest if not simply a comparable mental fortitude towards mind affecting spells and abilities as his fellow cleric of the faith. You have the Paladin of Freedom variant who is simply immune to compulsions, so granting Paladins a good will save surely can't be too overpowering. If you think a paladin with access to the Heal spell is going way over the top, consider that as a hybrid, he'll still only be able to cast said spell once or at most twice a day. Compare this to the Crusader or Warblade with Warmaster's Charge who can end any demon prince in one fell swoop so long as he has 20 1st level followers with him (rediculous situation) or simply the fact that they can use said charge once every round/other round.

Sorcerer
- one additional spell known for each granted spell level

*explanation* Most people will agree the sorcerer is far underpowered when compared to the wizard, cleric, or druid. This is a small step towards balancing them just a bit.

Barbarian
- Lower DR table by one step, bringing DR 1/- to 4th level, DR 2/- to 7th, etc
- open to suggestions

*explanation* I'm not fully certain how to rebalance the barbarian to be more on par with the new classes. The DR is a good start, and I'm thinking perhaps their rage progression table should be lowered by 2 levels or so. Really open to suggestions for this class.

And lastly, my small fix isn't for a core class, but two-weapon fighting. It's commonly known that the prerequisites for the latter ends of this chain increase while the benefits granted decrease. My fix for this is to allow each successive feat to grant a cummulative -1 to the penalty. TWF acts as normal, its improved version only incurs a -1 penalty, and finally its greater version incurs no penalty.

What do you guys think?
Seerow
10-12-06, 04:24 PM 1) Fighter Fix-Doesn't really help anything. Just piling more feats on top of things doesn't fix the Fighter.
2) Rogue Fix-Too much. Really, the Rogue is fine as is. If anything, I would de-emphasize the Rogue's sneak attack, and put more emphasis on his skills via class abilities. Feats that let you use skills in new ways would be nice, but I'm not really creative enough to do this on my own. Szanty posted a couple of these in K's Races of War thread, which I liked. I'd love to see something like that for all skills.

Giving him full BAB and making sneak attack more effective however, just makes the Rogue that much better than every other fighter type out there. He doesn't need fixing.

3) Ranger Fix-While I kind of like this idea, I'd rather give Ranger the full animal companion and nerf the Druid's, and give the Ranger a spellcasting boost in the same manner you gave the Paladin. Also, your giving all those feats to the ranger at once kind of interferes with what my prefered fix for Fighters is. (I won't go into that here though)

4) Paladin Fix- Really, this is probably the best fix of your lot. About the only thing I would add to this is let his smites be usable per encounter rather than per day, to make him less nova-prone. Give him all day lastingnesss like the ToB classes have.

It still leaves a lot of dead levels, but it makes Paladin20 more viable, and makes his spellcasting less laughable.

5) Sorcerer Fix-This is pretty simple, and not too bad. I'd much rather give class abilities that come in after level 5 though, to discourage PrCing.

6) Barbarian Fix-That's a good start, but I'd suggest looking for Otto's Barbarian Fix. It's probably my favorite of those posted for right now, it enhances DR, encourages lighter armors, enhances Rage, among other things. For a more simple fix, make Rage's Duration a bit shorter at low levels (scaling to be almost unlimited at high levels), but let it be used any time, so the Barbarian can rage in every encounter, but in longer encounters if he rages too early he'll find himself exhausted and less useful for the latter part of the encounter.

Just for a quick overview.
Fabius Maximus
10-12-06, 04:49 PM I'd make it more radical. Get rid of all three base classes and tie the offered mechanics into the existing melee classes.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Droken 10-12-06, 04:13 PM	Tome of Battle has brought significant balance back in the hands of melee combatants. Now there's actually good reason to stay true to a melee class instead of swooping in for a few class abilities before moving onto the next class. Examples: Two levels of Fighter, Two or sometimes Three levels of Paladin, One level of Barbarian, Three levels of Knight, etc.. With Tome of Battle, the three martial adepts can enjoy looking forward to higher maneuver progression, something spellcasters have been able to enjoy since the beginning of time. Role playing and flavor asside, why would anyone want to play a paladin, fighter, barbarian, rogue, ranger, or monk ever again? They're simply not comparable to the new classes presented. Droken's suggested class fixes (a work in progress) Fighter - bonus fighter feat every level explanation First 2 levels of Fighter offer feats. People love to dip into them. If the first 2 are balanced, then surely offering a feat every level surely can't be too unbalancing. Now instead of simply being a 2 level dipping class, maybe there'd be incentive to continue the progression. Consider that after 8 levels, a fighter would only have 3 more feats than before. That's hardly much considering an 7th level crusader can add 8D8 to his strikes, which is replenished at the end of every round after waiting out the first couple rounds of combat. Monk - Fighter BAB explanation A comparison of damage between the monk and fighter would conclude that the monk gets 2 more attacks than the fighter with this fix at 11th level. The fighter can enchant his weapon however, wheras the monk can usually only benefit from the increasing hit dice of his unarmed damage. It's also argued that a fighter who takes improved grapple outclasses the monk at his own specialty. This fix nips that and will hopefully promote more pugulists. Rogue - fighter BAB - level 7 gains the ability to sneak attack past 20% concealment, still incurs the penalties - level 10 gains the ability to sneak attack past 50% concealment, still incurs the penalties explanation What's the point of a rogue being able to deal more damage if his attack bonus is so much lower, thus lowering his DPS (damage per round)? Rogues will still suffer from having low hp and horrible saves. Save or die spells usually target your fort or will. Reflex is usually the least needed of the three. The increase to BAB will allow a rogue to take imp TWF by 6th level instead of 9th, where it can actually be of some use. The rogue will still suffer from the dilema that dealing too much damage will mean the monster will turn to the rogue in a grizzly manner. If you've ever played DDO, you'll agree that the rogue is almost always the first to die or at least the one to die most often. The latter fix should be self explanatory. a 20th level rogue can't sneak attack a 3rd level wizard using a blur spell. Most high level adventurers invest in a minor cloak of displacement. Ranger - Acquire both weapon styles at each level granted. explanation A ranger who can fight with two weapons and a bow will hardly be overpowering as he can only choose one at a time. This gives them more versatility and versatility usually equates to more fun for the player. Paladin - good Fort and Will saves - condense spell list to also include 5th and 6th level spells explanation The paladin, with his conviction towards what is right and wrong, should have the strongest if not simply a comparable mental fortitude towards mind affecting spells and abilities as his fellow cleric of the faith. You have the Paladin of Freedom variant who is simply immune to compulsions, so granting Paladins a good will save surely can't be too overpowering. If you think a paladin with access to the Heal spell is going way over the top, consider that as a hybrid, he'll still only be able to cast said spell once or at most twice a day. Compare this to the Crusader or Warblade with Warmaster's Charge who can end any demon prince in one fell swoop so long as he has 20 1st level followers with him (rediculous situation) or simply the fact that they can use said charge once every round/other round. Sorcerer - one additional spell known for each granted spell level explanation Most people will agree the sorcerer is far underpowered when compared to the wizard, cleric, or druid. This is a small step towards balancing them just a bit. Barbarian - Lower DR table by one step, bringing DR 1/- to 4th level, DR 2/- to 7th, etc - open to suggestions explanation I'm not fully certain how to rebalance the barbarian to be more on par with the new classes. The DR is a good start, and I'm thinking perhaps their rage progression table should be lowered by 2 levels or so. Really open to suggestions for this class. And lastly, my small fix isn't for a core class, but two-weapon fighting. It's commonly known that the prerequisites for the latter ends of this chain increase while the benefits granted decrease. My fix for this is to allow each successive feat to grant a cummulative -1 to the penalty. TWF acts as normal, its improved version only incurs a -1 penalty, and finally its greater version incurs no penalty. What do you guys think?
Seerow 10-12-06, 04:24 PM	1) Fighter Fix-Doesn't really help anything. Just piling more feats on top of things doesn't fix the Fighter. 2) Rogue Fix-Too much. Really, the Rogue is fine as is. If anything, I would de-emphasize the Rogue's sneak attack, and put more emphasis on his skills via class abilities. Feats that let you use skills in new ways would be nice, but I'm not really creative enough to do this on my own. Szanty posted a couple of these in K's Races of War thread, which I liked. I'd love to see something like that for all skills. Giving him full BAB and making sneak attack more effective however, just makes the Rogue that much better than every other fighter type out there. He doesn't need fixing. 3) Ranger Fix-While I kind of like this idea, I'd rather give Ranger the full animal companion and nerf the Druid's, and give the Ranger a spellcasting boost in the same manner you gave the Paladin. Also, your giving all those feats to the ranger at once kind of interferes with what my prefered fix for Fighters is. (I won't go into that here though) 4) Paladin Fix- Really, this is probably the best fix of your lot. About the only thing I would add to this is let his smites be usable per encounter rather than per day, to make him less nova-prone. Give him all day lastingnesss like the ToB classes have. It still leaves a lot of dead levels, but it makes Paladin20 more viable, and makes his spellcasting less laughable. 5) Sorcerer Fix-This is pretty simple, and not too bad. I'd much rather give class abilities that come in after level 5 though, to discourage PrCing. 6) Barbarian Fix-That's a good start, but I'd suggest looking for Otto's Barbarian Fix. It's probably my favorite of those posted for right now, it enhances DR, encourages lighter armors, enhances Rage, among other things. For a more simple fix, make Rage's Duration a bit shorter at low levels (scaling to be almost unlimited at high levels), but let it be used any time, so the Barbarian can rage in every encounter, but in longer encounters if he rages too early he'll find himself exhausted and less useful for the latter part of the encounter. Just for a quick overview.
Fabius Maximus 10-12-06, 04:49 PM	I'd make it more radical. Get rid of all three base classes and tie the offered mechanics into the existing melee classes.