Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RadicalTaoist 10-09-05, 02:00 PM	Check it out. (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=515135)
Vestigial_Thumb 10-09-05, 02:03 PM	Nay I say!
Crimson_Concerto 10-09-05, 02:08 PM	That's how everybody felt about the Warlock class when it was first introduced. I hold my judgement until seeing one in action, but it doesn't seem so bad to me. It seems pretty fun, actually. I think I'm going to try a de-buff mage using it...
Jagyr Ebonwood 10-09-05, 02:18 PM	Scary at first glance... PS. Hey, RadicalTaoist! Nice to see another Taoist on the boards!
d_nychus 10-09-05, 02:19 PM	I assume you mean the Archivist? Want to explain why you think it is broken instead of just putting out a lame kneejerk reaction? I understand there can be some potential problems if the DM allows a player to use and PrC for builds, but as a core class by itself, it seems mostly fine. Doesn't seem any more powerful than a cleric or druid.
Nightwhisper 10-09-05, 02:53 PM	I dunno. Seems like a cleric with lowered HD and BAB that has a lot more limited spells known, split stat requirement for spellcasting, and no domains. In exchange it gains slightly better skills, a weaker version of Bardic Music (that isn't even guaranteed to work at low levels), bonuses to some Knowledge skills, and two three bonus feats. Doesn't seem that broken to me...
d_nychus 10-09-05, 02:57 PM	With certain builds, I sense some trouble, but that can be said for a great many classes. I look forward to what the CO board puts out, since they are good at finding exploits. I honestly don't see this class as being any more broken than most spell casters are.
Mud 10-09-05, 03:07 PM	I assume you mean the Archivist? Want to explain why you think it is broken instead of just putting out a lame kneejerk reaction? I understand there can be some potential problems if the DM allows a player to use and PrC for builds, but as a core class by itself, it seems mostly fine. Doesn't seem any more powerful than a cleric or druid. Some people on the thread are talking about a number of Archivists using Dread Secret being able to keep a Divine Rank 0 outsider stunned for one round per Archivist with no save... at all... without fail. And, since there's no rule stating that an Archivist can't use Dark Knowledge on a creature that already had Dark Knowledge used on it by another Archivist, this strategy is valid. :weep:
Thievingrouge 10-09-05, 03:14 PM	I dunno. Seems like a cleric with lowered HD and BAB that has a lot more limited spells known, split stat requirement for spellcasting, and no domains. In exchange it gains slightly better skills, a weaker version of Bardic Music (that isn't even guaranteed to work at low levels), bonuses to some Knowledge skills, and two three bonus feats. Doesn't seem that broken to me... No, it can learn every Divine spell- cleric, druid, paladin, ranger (Just not by leveling up. needs scrolls). that also means it can learn all domain spells. Compare it properly. It works out better than it's cousin- the cleric.
Crimson_Concerto 10-09-05, 03:24 PM	Some people on the thread are talking about a number of Archivists using Dread Secret being able to keep a Divine Rank 0 outsider stunned for one round per Archivist with no save... at all... without fail. And, since there's no rule stating that an Archivist can't use Dark Knowledge on a creature that already had Dark Knowledge used on it by another Archivist, this strategy is valid. :weep: Actually, the text on Dark knowledge states that "Dark knowledge can only be used once against any given creature." If an Archivist uses it agianst a creature and affected by it, and another archivist tries to do it again, it wouldn't work because that creatuire's already been affected by it once. It only works once on any given creature, regardless of whether it's coming from a different source or not. However, I do agree that it needs to have a will save same as any spell the Archivist casts.
moet324 10-09-05, 03:50 PM	hmmm yea id have to say i like it more or less, in particularly the split casting stats, it dosnt seem that broken aside from the lack of saves for the dark knowledge ability deffinatly not as broken as most of the other divine casters.
rampant 10-09-05, 03:51 PM	um its a divine wizard it is just learning divine spells instead of arcane what is the problem
d_nychus 10-09-05, 04:12 PM	Some people on the thread are talking about a number of Archivists using Dread Secret being able to keep a Divine Rank 0 outsider stunned for one round per Archivist with no save... at all... without fail. And, since there's no rule stating that an Archivist can't use Dark Knowledge on a creature that already had Dark Knowledge used on it by another Archivist, this strategy is valid. :weep: Oooh, so now we have a party that might be effective against one impressive monster type for a few rounds, and might have a chance against them if they can get past the other defenses the creature has. Let's see how good that same group fares against a storm giant. No, it can learn every Divine spell- cleric, druid, paladin, ranger (Just not by leveling up. needs scrolls). that also means it can learn all domain spells. Compare it properly. It works out better than it's cousin- the cleric. My question is what spells are there from those lists that are really all that powerful for the Archivist? I mean, they don't have the combat ability to make really good use of best the paladin and ranger spells, and the bulk of the druid spells are actually mostly weaker than the cleric's. Maybe a few of the direct damage spells, or elemental swarm, but to be honest, I really don't know of too many druid spells that would be better for the Achivist than the druid. At least not yet, of course. The Archivist have a ton of spells they can select from, but I still say wizards have the best spell list, and like the wizard, the archivist has to pay for spells beyond the minimum. Archivist: "AHA!! I can cast entangle, cure light wounds, bless weapon, or bless all as first level spells!!" Wizard: "Whoop-de-freakin'-do" <casts color spray and eliminates an entire encounter>
Vestigial_Thumb 10-09-05, 04:19 PM	they don't have the combat ability to make really good use of best the paladin and ranger spells, and the bulk of the druid spells are actually mostly weaker than the cleric's. Wait a minute... Divine Power... :confused:
Lord Schpungus 10-09-05, 04:32 PM	and it can get lightning bolt from adept, which means it can go Hexer. Full BAB, full spellcasting, plus hexing and 5 free sorc/wiz spells if you really, really can't find the ones you want. There are also good spells that are low level on ranger/paladin lists because they don't get those spell levels until late.
d_nychus 10-09-05, 04:40 PM	Wait a minute... Divine Power... :confused: What about it? If the Archivist casts that, then some other buff spells, he will be moderately effective at combat, but without heavy armor and shields or higher hp, he is still lacking as far as the cleric with divine power is concerned. And, to be honest, only certain builds of a cleric are really good with that spell, normally ones that give martial weapons through domains or other means. The only thing good about divine power for the archivist is the fact that his BAB is effectively doubled. Aside from that, I feel the spell is wasted, even with all the combat boosts of the ranger and paladin. The archivist is only one step better than the wizard when it comes to melee.
d_nychus 10-09-05, 04:44 PM	I do suspect some errata on what spells count as what level in the future. Does a scroll of heal written by a druid count as a 7th level spell, or a 6th level spell since a cleric casts it as that? I see plenty of problems with this class, just none that scream broken to me yet.
Jayr 10-09-05, 04:53 PM	Shugenja. In truth, the Archivist is more powerful in theory than in practice; when you can get Shugenja spell scrolls, spells from obscure domains, and soforth, the class's power increases drastically. But seriously, it's unlikely that any of these obscure scrolls will be discovered or found for sale in an average campaign. However, let an archivist start above 5th-level or so and choose what spells or scrolls to have, and you'll have trouble on your hands. Still, this guy can't hold a candle to the Frenzied Berserker, the H.I.V.E., or Pun-Pun.
XrP-Leon The Second 10-09-05, 04:55 PM	I think the broken-ness comes from the casting off of Int and the ability to learn any divine spell. That makes it really easy to thurge with this guy.
XrP-Leon The Second 10-09-05, 04:59 PM	ShugenjaStill, this guy can't hold a candle to the Frenzied Berserker, the H.I.V.E., or Pun-Pun. That's like saying a penny can't buy as much as a 500 thousand dollar check signed in Bill Gates' name.
allenchan 10-09-05, 05:09 PM	Shugenja. In truth, the Archivist is more powerful in theory than in practice; when you can get Shugenja spell scrolls, spells from obscure domains, and soforth, the class's power increases drastically. But seriously, it's unlikely that any of these obscure scrolls will be discovered or found for sale in an average campaign. Adepts are more common then clerics, druids, and wizards combined. They have Heal at 5th level, Polymorph, and a bunch of other amazing divine spells for the Archivist to use. Not saying they're broken (everything breaks if you bend it enough, right?) But they're deffinately good; especially for a theurge type of character.
Tekas_Tinkered_Dragon 10-09-05, 05:58 PM	This class is about as broken as my new hard drive, which for your information isn't broken in the least. The class his definitly no Healer, it is powerful and knows it is powerful with a lot of above average things. The main power of the class lies in whether or not the DM will relegate what spells the Archivist wanders across. Some DMs just like the party Wizard pick and choose whatever spells from any book in existence whenever he goes into any tiny shop in the smallest thorp but thats not really the way to do it. The Archivist can be rampent, but only if the DM does a bad job.
RadicalTaoist 10-09-05, 06:04 PM	PS. Hey, RadicalTaoist! Nice to see another Taoist on the boards! 'Nothing under heaven is softer or weaker than water, and yet nothing is better for attacking what is hard and strong, because of its immutability.':) Now on the subject of the Archivist spell list - let's take Shapechange, Barkskin, the Summon Nature's Allies, Elemental Swarm, etc. from the Druid list. Holy Sword, Restoration and Lesser Restoration at lower levels, from the Paladin list. Polymorph, Heal at a lower level from the Adept list. That's all core just off the top of my head. I'll look at the Divine Scroll list in the DMG to show what else is good, but otherwise what you have is one character packing all the buffs, summons, and battlefield control you could want with a fair share of blasting too. As has been said on the thread, it is quite literally the one spell list to rule them all. Bringing in non-core only makes it worse - Complete Divine alone doubles the Archivist's power and then some. It may not be amazingly better than the Cleric and Druid, but it's in that ballpark, and the Cleric and Druid were overpowered to begin with.
allenchan 10-09-05, 06:21 PM	And the Spontanious Healer feat allows them to heal just as good as a cleric.
Todd 10-09-05, 06:22 PM	You can see the CO board's take here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=515135 Instead of a wizard just play an Archivist who gets ahold of some Adept (DMG NPC class) scrolls and a few Druid scrolls for attack spells. You have a character with 4 skill points a level, wizard like offensive spells, healing, and no ASF. Instead of a cleric archer you can now have a Archivist archer with Divine Power + all the nifty ranger archery spells. Instead of cleric/wizard go archivist/wizard into Mystic Theurge and have only one casting stat (though admittedly fewer bonus spells if low wis). It's not like the Archivist can't get turning (that means Divine Metamagic) or domains. Both are easily availible via PrCs in the Complete Divine.
Lord Schpungus 10-09-05, 11:20 PM	I keep seeing "hey, let's get lots of spells from adept!" I don't think it works that way. Most high level NPCs have class levels. You're not likely to run across a friendly adept who can actually cast 2nd or higher level spells, so the possibility for adept-cheese is basically nil.
runestar 10-09-05, 11:30 PM	I am almost inclined to believe this class was spawned by all the seemingly endless threads on what spells you are allowed to choose with extra spell feat. :P Now we see the same points being regurgitated, only in a different format.
Todd 10-09-05, 11:37 PM	Most high level NPCs have class levels. You're not likely to run across a friendly adept who can actually cast 2nd or higher level spells, so the possibility for adept-cheese is basically nil. That may be your game. It's not a given ... especially in settings like Eberron.
LordHell 10-09-05, 11:41 PM	Let's see. Pretty much a Wizard with access to the entire divine spell list, including DOMAINS, but wait.. theres more.. Tons of special abilities, bonus feats also, no ASF, more spells per day that the Wizard, D6 hps compared to a Wizards D4, TWO good saves compared to a Wizards One. As if this class was needed. An int based divine Wizard, that happens to be better in almost every way. How about fleshing out the Sorcerer a bit more? Or touching up the Fighter? The Divine Fanboyism at WOTC continues. I guess they had to outdo themselves though after the mess they've made of the Druid and Cleric. Take a look at how happy the CO board is with this puppy.
Decree Of Boredom 10-09-05, 11:44 PM	I'll be playing (hopefully, my DM's checking the class over) a 1st level Archivist in a game starting in about a week. I'll tell you guys how it goes.
beaver1024 10-10-05, 12:48 AM	Wow. We can truly get rid of wizards and sorcerers because now we have a better arcane caster than an arcane caster. Priests of the Coast indeed.
Taliesin52 10-10-05, 12:49 AM	I keep seeing "hey, let's get lots of spells from adept!" I don't think it works that way. Most high level NPCs have class levels. You're not likely to run across a friendly adept who can actually cast 2nd or higher level spells, so the possibility for adept-cheese is basically nil. *shrug* High level adepts should be available in most large cities, just as much as a high level blacksmith. Further, the adept doesn't even need scribe scroll to help you out. Just have him cast the spell while you make the scroll (as you would with rangers, paladins, etc...). If that doesn't work, I'm sure there's a single Level 12 warlock somewhere on the planet. If you're in the Forgotten Realms, hang out with the Mystrans. Isn't ensuring magic is disbursed freely into the hands of others a tenet of their faith? Use Leadership to get some friends that can help. Take them from helpful party members who may be playing the various classes. There are plenty of ways to get spells for this class, some of which involve roleplaying and goals and going on adventures. It may be difficult, but not impossible. Personally, I'm waiting to see an Archivist Archer build. The ability to turn into an archer demon (I think that's it's name, the four armed guy), fighter bab, haste, all those ranger spells in CV, persistant spell, etc... Should be interseting.
Taliesin52 10-10-05, 12:55 AM	My question is what spells are there from those lists that are really all that powerful for the Archivist? I mean, they don't have the combat ability to make really good use of best the paladin and ranger spells, and the bulk of the druid spells are actually mostly weaker than the cleric's. Maybe a few of the direct damage spells, or elemental swarm, but to be honest, I really don't know of too many druid spells that would be better for the Achivist than the druid. At least not yet, of course. Paladin - low level lesser restoration, angelshirt.... I'm sure some other ones Ranger - archer feats galore to make the persistant spell cleric archer type build even crazier Adept - haste, polymorph, level 5 heal, lightning bolt.... Druid - quillblast, quillblast, quillblast... (I love this spell, especially if you can manage to get it as an arcane caster). However, the bread and butter of this class seems to be domain spells: Time stop, shapechange, poly, poly any object, haste, fly..... Those are just off the top of my head. Also, another consideration is all ofthe PrC's out there that have their own spell list (Blackguard, templar, etc...) where you can scrounge for spells a little more. In the end, brokenness will only come from the DM with this class, as he can control your spell access.
beaver1024 10-10-05, 01:27 AM	In the end, brokenness will only come from the DM with this class, as he can control your spell access. Shame about Miracle then isn't it.
ksbsnowowl 10-10-05, 01:53 AM	To add to Taliesin52's list: Paladin - Bless Weapon.... to be combined with: Ranger - Hunter's Mercy Nentyar Hunter - Barkskin, Magic Missile, True Strike (all as first level) Druid - Flamestrike (as 4th level)
RadicalTaoist 10-10-05, 02:17 AM	Shame about Miracle then isn't it. As soon as you can Planar Ally an Efreet with this class, it's over. One Wish gets you all the scrolls you need.
WitheringSolid 10-10-05, 09:54 AM	I seem to remember everyone having a litter of kittens when the Mystic Thurge was introduced. Now most folks seem to think, while powerfull, its not broken. I say we wait and see until it gets played a little more to cast judgement as to how broken it is.:)
ramzafft1 10-10-05, 10:12 AM	I think the class has rather limited appeal. It's a mostly stylized class, and to know EXACTLY what it can cast, you have to buy HoH, a book that looks, to me at least, like it has a relatively small target audience. It's aimed at DMs who want to play a horror setting. It definently does NOT look like a book your average player would pick up, IMHO.
Taliesin52 10-10-05, 10:19 AM	This is just another tool for the asshat build-monkeys to make superpowerfull but unplayable characters with. There will be a miillion multi-prestige class turd builds posted in days, wonderfull. Wizards, please, no more classes the munchkins are annoying enough already, not to mention the bunghammers that will tear the WORDING of it all apart for any percieved advantage Wow... If you're that upset about the "Asshats," "munchkins," and "bunghammers," may I make a suggestion? Don't read the CO boards or any threads that may leak out that are about this class. It lowers your blood pressure, evens you out, and will keep you from tagging fellow posters with rather crude and insulting names.
LordHell 10-10-05, 04:21 PM	The only saving grace with this ill thought out mess is the fact that it requires wisdom for bonus spells. That of course completely and utterly doesnt make sense, considering it requires intelligence as it's primary spellcasting attribute, but it does throw 'MAD' into the mix.
Lord Schpungus 10-10-05, 06:46 PM	I still think having high-level npc classes is idiotic when there are pc classes for the truly talented and willing to spend their xp upon. Anyways, it seems to me like Wizards' intent for the Archivist was to make all the uptights have kittens until they passed out, and then they could leave the normals alone for more than a second.
beaver1024 10-10-05, 07:58 PM	The only saving grace with this ill thought out mess is the fact that it requires wisdom for bonus spells. That of course completely and utterly doesnt make sense, considering it requires intelligence as it's primary spellcasting attribute, but it does throw 'MAD' into the mix. There is no saving grace. Even with 10 wis, the archivist will have as many spells as a generalist wizard with 30 int. Specialised wizards pay for their extra spells through forbidden schools. All it takes is 5 wishes and 1 +6 wis item and the archivist is suddenly up there with the specialist wizards on spells/day.
Andrew_980 10-10-05, 11:53 PM	Aww they yanked my post because I expressed contempt for the weasels that scour the books for power. Next thing you know they'll edit me for calling "troll" may I make a suggestion? Don't read the CO board I usually don't, most of what I see there disgusts me. I play the game to enjoy playing the game, not to "win" by powergaming and warped logic