Broken Class? Dragonfire Adept - Dragon Magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Broken Class? Dragonfire Adept - Dragon Magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
belbearvan
03-20-07, 11:15 PM Hi everyone,
I'm looking at the dragonfire adept base class from the recent Dragon Magic book and am quite confused by how it is on the same playing field as the other classes. The class description actually states it is equivalent multiple times. Can someone point me in the right direction in how this class compares equally?

For those of you who aren't familiar with the class, here are some particulars.
1) Breathweapon, 1d6 per 2 levels (like rogue sneak attack), at will, every round, area affect 15' cone or 30'line (ranges double at 10th), save for half.
2) Breath effects for increased effectiveness of breath weapon.
3) Invocations are available (similar to Warlock)

What kills me is that as an area affect weapon, the breath weapon does not need an attack roll, and it can affect multiple opponents.

I would love to be able to do 5d6 damage, every round, to multiple opponents as a 9th level fighter or mage, but it just isn't possible.
Even the warlock needs to make an attack roll and dragons need to wait several rounds between breaths.

The only downside I see is that he has to be careful not to scorch his own party.

What am I missing that brings this class back to the same level as everything else?

Any help is appreciated, it's driving me crazy.
ZeronHitaro
03-20-07, 11:20 PM 1) Breathweapon, 1d6 per 2 levels (like rogue sneak attack), at will, every round, area affect 15' cone or 30'line (ranges double at 10th), save for half.

The bolded part answers your question. A rogue's big sneak attack at max damage (10d6) for 60 cannot be cut down to 30 by a measily reflex save. Not to mention there are classes and monsters out there with big reflex saves that have Evasion or Improved Evasion, practically nullifying breath weapons. On top of that Draconomicon offers anti-breath weapon spells.
Eela6
03-21-07, 12:30 AM I would love to be able to do 5d6 damage, every round, to multiple opponents as a 9th level fighter or mage, but it just isn't possible.

So would I.

It's really a horrible situation. I'm Joe Decent, a 9th-level Sorcerer. I cast Fireball, but I can't do 5d6, no matter how hard I try.

Wait, I can! Considering that I've probably got a caster level of 10 anyways, I do 5d6 if my enemy succeeds on his save, and as a 9th-level Sorcerer with 18 charisma, I have seven of them a day; more than enough to toast at least once an encounter [and that's not even taking my up to seven 8d6 scorching rays and 4 fourth-level spells, or the fact I could be using better effects than damage anyways.]
nightwyrm
03-21-07, 12:31 AM To the op:
The power of the dragonfire adept is not in its pure damage potential (unless you're lv 15 and have the tiamat breath). Its true power is in battlefield control with entangling exhalation feat (from RotD), slow breath, fear effects and chilling fog invocation.

You can look up the DFA handbook from the char ops board if you're curious.
NineInchNall
03-21-07, 12:45 AM The answer is the same as it is for the Warlock: the effects the DfA can achieve, while available more often, are not as powerful as those available to a real caster.

A real 9th level caster just chuckles at the thought of doing 5d6 damage. "That's gotta be the lamest ability ever," he thinks. "That's your defining ability. Man, that sucks. I feel for you. I really do."

So would I.

It's really a horrible situation. I'm Joe Decent, a 9th-level Sorcerer. I cast Fireball, but I can't do 5d6, no matter how hard I try.

Wait, I can! Considering that I've probably got a caster level of 10 anyways, I do 5d6 if my enemy succeeds on his save, and as a 9th-level Sorcerer with 18 charisma, I have seven of them a day; more than enough to toast at least once an encounter [and that's not even taking my up to seven 8d6 scorching rays and 4 fourth-level spells, or the fact I could be using better effects than damage anyways.]

QFEFT

The class's best ability is actually its solid fog clone, and even that has its downside.
Greendevilman
03-21-07, 12:48 AM You do realize that for all practical purposes the Dragonfire Adept actually has worse damage output on a per round basis than either a good 9th level fighter or mage for a typical encounter? 5d6 a round! Oh noes! The Dragonfire adept has an extremely limited range fireball as if cast by someone half his level! By jove, that whopping 17.5 average damage a round (vulnerable to saves and evasion and requiring that he take his squishy body somewhat near his foes) makes the Dragonfire adept a per round damage powerhouse unrivaled by the Fighter's paltry 2d6+1.5x Str+weapon enchantments+Weapon Specialization+other fighter feats+Power Attack. Or possibly not, especially considering that the fighter gets multiple attacks and has a much higher average damage. Meanwhile the Wizard only gets by on his phenominal cosmic powers and much higher per round damage that he can inflict at a much greater range and an equivalent area (if he actually wants to waste energy blasting) during almost every round of typical daily encounters. ****, with the reserve feats he can basically do the same all-day damage per round as the breath weapon. It may not be area of effect, but unless the people you're fighting are monstrously stupid they arn't going to clump togther versus a guy with a breath weapon so you'll be lucky to get more than one or two at once. And with Storm Bolt he doesn't have to roll to hit or worry about saves. You're making the same mistake that people did when the Warlock came out, which is to see the per round damage that he can do all day and think OMG BROKEN BECAUSE IT HAS NO LIMIT rather than actually looking at the effects on a per round basis during the time period most D&D encounters take place in. There are definitely times when it shines, but versus many of the encounters a typical party faces the tradeoff of frontloaded high yield damage isn't worth it for reasonably consistant damage over a longer time period. And as pointed out above, the lack of an attack roll is compensated for by creatures with reflex saves, reflex saves + evasion, elemental immunity/resistancem, etc. Basically he trades off maximum damage potential and spell versatility/power for consistency in both areas, but he does it in a system that rewards extreme power and flexibility much more than it does consistency. This isn't to say the DFA is a bad class by any means, but the fact that you apparently think it outclasses something like the Wizard shows how little you really get the system.

What makes this especially amusing to me is that you don't even see the Dragonfire Adept's real strengths which is the ability to use his mobility to take advantage of the Entangling Breath feat, the Slow Breath effect, and his awesome battlefield control invocations (Solid Fog that deals small ammounts of cold damage too? AMAZING) to shape the battlefield to his party's advantage.
Totentanz
03-21-07, 12:54 AM The breath weapon is probably the least important part of the DFA. Compared to the core classes, that is pretty wimpy. I read it and scratched my head when I compared it to the warlock, though. Gets better everything, including class abilities. Less invocations but better ones overall and gets free "invocations" as breath effects. All for giving up armor? There are 1,000 ways of getting around that anyway.

Still, not broken, but it doesn't make sense put up against its nearest cousin.
Chimaera2000
03-21-07, 01:18 AM It's a rare few classes without full spellcasting progression that can actually qualify as overpowered (the artificer being one of them). The dragonfire adept is useful, no doubt, but it's damage output trails off as you gain higher and higher levels. It can be exceptionally good at low levels with Entangling Exhalation but afterwards it only really performs battlefield control, skills and utility well to semi-well.

Yet again, I find myself referring to the wisdom of RadicalTaoist in this matter:

Originally Posted by RadicalTaoist
It bears saying: if up against a logic-impervious DM who thinks Core is balanced and Psionics (or Warlocks, or Fochlucan Lyrists, or anything balanced that's come out of splatbooks that aren't munchfests like Complete Divine) isn't, then the most powerful way to disprove that is to play a C.o.D. (Cleric or Druid). Noncore material will not be necessary unless you are going for pure overkill (Draconic Wildshape? Divine Metamagic?). So by all means, if you must win that argument, take you C.o.D. to town. Annihilate the opposition. Make the NPCs and other players scream "Oh no, it's C.o.D.zilla!!!!!" in badly dubbed English. Breathe radioactive fire. Knock down buildings. Then stomp out of the burning Tokyo that is the ruins of the game and swim off into the ocean, seeking a DM with some basic cognitive functions.

Almost anything that the dragonfire adept can contribute, a wizard, cleric, druid, or artificer can do better.
crimsonwolf
03-21-07, 01:48 AM so whats the real point ot taking this class if its subpar with the rest?
GhostStepper
03-21-07, 01:52 AM Almost anything that the dragonfire adept can contribute, a wizard, cleric, druid, or artificer can do better.

QFT.

Im playing with an artificer in a game now at level 10 who uses a wand of fireball on occasion for grouped together enemies. He spends a round puting the Metamagic Item infusion with Energy Admixture on his wand and he is blasting with 20d6 fireballs for one charge a piece. And thats being conservative...i could easily see that going up to 80d6 if he wants to blow through infusions/charges.

And thats on top of flying around all day with 3+ persisted spells. When he wants to take it easy and not use wands he just throws around his Energy Admixtured darkfire for 10d6 ranged touch attacks. Eat your heart out warlock/dragonfire.

so whats the real point ot taking this class if its subpar with the rest?

If your in a marathon encounter type game where there isnt much resting time this class could shine a bit more if other casters are running low on spells. In a campaign without much down time this class may hold its own against an artificer and if your DM like to dispell magic a lot your better off than character that rely on persistant spells such as the cleric or artificer.
Kurotowa
03-21-07, 03:29 AM so whats the real point ot taking this class if its subpar with the rest?

To which I reply, "Subpar by what measuring stick?"

A Dragonfire Adept doesn't have the damage output of a melee monster or big blaster, but it has its own strengths. The right invocations, breath effects, and feats will make for a powerful battlefield controller and enemy hexer. True, it makes for less of a solo star, but when used to support a good party you'll contribute just as much as anyone else.

And on a less combat focused note, the class can be fun! Juicy draconic flavor? Invocations that make me a master of every Knowledge or give me Change Shape? What's not to enjoy.
Chimaera2000
03-21-07, 03:38 AM so whats the real point ot taking this class if its subpar with the rest?

Fun, obviously. :)

As danielinthewolvesden's (slightly dated) polls (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=369436) indicate, the most powerful classes are not the most fun classes for everyone. To use a Diablo II analogy (reinstalled the game recently out of nostalgia), the most powerful build overall is the "hammerdin." a paladin who repeatedly uses the spell "Blessed Hammer" to destroy any enemy he fights. However, despite their power, are the majority of Diablo II players hammerdins? Definitely not, and why? Other classes and builds are more fun! Just as not every Diablo II player has to be a hammerdin, so too does not every D & D player have to be a cleric, druid, wizard or artificer to contribute to a party.

Besides, dragonfire adepts can be very effective at low levels (full spellcasters haven't picked up steam yet) and they can pull off a number of nice tricks through their invocations, including identify at will, huge bonuses to social or knowledge skills, flight, and battlefield control. Being able to use a breath weapon AT WILL in any armor you like is pretty cool too, you must admit. :)
Lone Wolf
03-21-07, 03:46 AM I still think one of my favorite things about the class is the magic insight invocation. Detect magic at will, and then end the effect for a free identify spell? Sold.

Seriously, I can't count the number of times this would've been awesome to have in the Eberron campaign I'm in (especially seeing as how the dice hate our artificer).
Chimaera2000
03-21-07, 07:19 AM I personally love the Draconic Knowledge Invocation. Gain a +6 bonus to all Knowledge skills and Spellcraft (the equivalent of 66 skill points!) and use those skills untrained? Sign me up!
Caliborn
03-21-07, 08:25 AM The breath Weapon in and of itself is pretty worthless; it becomes very powerful, possibly to the point of being slightly over-powered, when you take entangling exhalation at level one. After level one it lags in power slowly until level 5 when you can pick up slow breath and you suddenly become cool again. 1st and 5th levels are pretty much the height of your power, followed by a nice little bump once you can pick up the Tiamat breath power and actually manage to meaningfully hurt things with damage, which is normally relegated to the martial classes and CoDzilla.
MourninStar
03-21-07, 09:21 AM The DFA has some pretty nifty advantages, lest we forget. The BW doesn't provoke AoO's to use it, plus all Knowledges and Speak language as class skills.

AoE elemental damage every round is nice no matter how you cut it, especially since Ability Focus helps bump up that DC. Your fair share of monsters at higher levels will be able to make that Ref save, but they still take half damage. Their breath effects make for great battlefield control, and Improved Natural Armor can help you not get hit, and Improved Toughness can help you survive.

Personally, I consider the class pretty effective at its intended role - backup damage and crowd control.
cthascott
03-21-07, 09:30 AM To the op:
The power of the dragonfire adept is not in its pure damage potential (unless you're lv 15 and have the tiamat breath). Its true power is in battlefield control with entangling exhalation feat (from RotD), slow breath, fear effects and chilling fog invocation.

You can look up the DFA handbook from the char ops board if you're curious.

I've played a DFA and this strategy is the one I used. After 6th level, it's not really worth it until you get to 15th so just multiclass. I was the leader of the group as I used the tactics side of the game to great efffect with my adventuremates. I was a Dragonborn Half-Giant that whomped with my grapple, then fire breath, then my racial cold/fire/electricity/acid whatever I wanted breath. The damage potential is not the good part of this class because it isn't 5d6+anything it's just 5d6, as a standard action no less.
nightwyrm
03-23-07, 12:26 AM The DFA makes for a pretty decent class outside combat too. Its got all three social skills (bluff, diplomacy, intimidate) and all knowledge skills as class skills and also has invocations to buff those skill checks too. He can make a great "face" or "knows stuff" guy.
stsword
03-23-07, 08:00 PM The breath weapon is probably the least important part of the DFA. Compared to the core classes, that is pretty wimpy. I read it and scratched my head when I compared it to the warlock, though. Gets better everything, including class abilities. Less invocations but better ones overall and gets free "invocations" as breath effects. All for giving up armor? There are 1,000 ways of getting around that anyway.

Still, not broken, but it doesn't make sense put up against its nearest cousin.

Funny, I'd say it's the dragonfire adept that doesn't stack up to the Warlock. Thea warlock has greater range, does more damage, can still gain eldritch blast invocations with spellcasting prestige classes, and can enhance their invocations and their eldritch blast with the same feats.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
belbearvan 03-20-07, 11:15 PM	Hi everyone, I'm looking at the dragonfire adept base class from the recent Dragon Magic book and am quite confused by how it is on the same playing field as the other classes. The class description actually states it is equivalent multiple times. Can someone point me in the right direction in how this class compares equally? For those of you who aren't familiar with the class, here are some particulars. 1) Breathweapon, 1d6 per 2 levels (like rogue sneak attack), at will, every round, area affect 15' cone or 30'line (ranges double at 10th), save for half. 2) Breath effects for increased effectiveness of breath weapon. 3) Invocations are available (similar to Warlock) What kills me is that as an area affect weapon, the breath weapon does not need an attack roll, and it can affect multiple opponents. I would love to be able to do 5d6 damage, every round, to multiple opponents as a 9th level fighter or mage, but it just isn't possible. Even the warlock needs to make an attack roll and dragons need to wait several rounds between breaths. The only downside I see is that he has to be careful not to scorch his own party. What am I missing that brings this class back to the same level as everything else? Any help is appreciated, it's driving me crazy.
ZeronHitaro 03-20-07, 11:20 PM	1) Breathweapon, 1d6 per 2 levels (like rogue sneak attack), at will, every round, area affect 15' cone or 30'line (ranges double at 10th), save for half. The bolded part answers your question. A rogue's big sneak attack at max damage (10d6) for 60 cannot be cut down to 30 by a measily reflex save. Not to mention there are classes and monsters out there with big reflex saves that have Evasion or Improved Evasion, practically nullifying breath weapons. On top of that Draconomicon offers anti-breath weapon spells.
Eela6 03-21-07, 12:30 AM	I would love to be able to do 5d6 damage, every round, to multiple opponents as a 9th level fighter or mage, but it just isn't possible. So would I. It's really a horrible situation. I'm Joe Decent, a 9th-level Sorcerer. I cast Fireball, but I can't do 5d6, no matter how hard I try. Wait, I can! Considering that I've probably got a caster level of 10 anyways, I do 5d6 if my enemy succeeds on his save, and as a 9th-level Sorcerer with 18 charisma, I have seven of them a day; more than enough to toast at least once an encounter [and that's not even taking my up to seven 8d6 scorching rays and 4 fourth-level spells, or the fact I could be using better effects than damage anyways.]
nightwyrm 03-21-07, 12:31 AM	To the op: The power of the dragonfire adept is not in its pure damage potential (unless you're lv 15 and have the tiamat breath). Its true power is in battlefield control with entangling exhalation feat (from RotD), slow breath, fear effects and chilling fog invocation. You can look up the DFA handbook from the char ops board if you're curious.
NineInchNall 03-21-07, 12:45 AM	The answer is the same as it is for the Warlock: the effects the DfA can achieve, while available more often, are not as powerful as those available to a real caster. A real 9th level caster just chuckles at the thought of doing 5d6 damage. "That's gotta be the lamest ability ever," he thinks. "That's your defining ability. Man, that sucks. I feel for you. I really do." So would I. It's really a horrible situation. I'm Joe Decent, a 9th-level Sorcerer. I cast Fireball, but I can't do 5d6, no matter how hard I try. Wait, I can! Considering that I've probably got a caster level of 10 anyways, I do 5d6 if my enemy succeeds on his save, and as a 9th-level Sorcerer with 18 charisma, I have seven of them a day; more than enough to toast at least once an encounter [and that's not even taking my up to seven 8d6 scorching rays and 4 fourth-level spells, or the fact I could be using better effects than damage anyways.] QFEFT The class's best ability is actually its solid fog clone, and even that has its downside.
Greendevilman 03-21-07, 12:48 AM	You do realize that for all practical purposes the Dragonfire Adept actually has worse damage output on a per round basis than either a good 9th level fighter or mage for a typical encounter? 5d6 a round! Oh noes! The Dragonfire adept has an extremely limited range fireball as if cast by someone half his level! By jove, that whopping 17.5 average damage a round (vulnerable to saves and evasion and requiring that he take his squishy body somewhat near his foes) makes the Dragonfire adept a per round damage powerhouse unrivaled by the Fighter's paltry 2d6+1.5x Str+weapon enchantments+Weapon Specialization+other fighter feats+Power Attack. Or possibly not, especially considering that the fighter gets multiple attacks and has a much higher average damage. Meanwhile the Wizard only gets by on his phenominal cosmic powers and much higher per round damage that he can inflict at a much greater range and an equivalent area (if he actually wants to waste energy blasting) during almost every round of typical daily encounters. ****, with the reserve feats he can basically do the same all-day damage per round as the breath weapon. It may not be area of effect, but unless the people you're fighting are monstrously stupid they arn't going to clump togther versus a guy with a breath weapon so you'll be lucky to get more than one or two at once. And with Storm Bolt he doesn't have to roll to hit or worry about saves. You're making the same mistake that people did when the Warlock came out, which is to see the per round damage that he can do all day and think OMG BROKEN BECAUSE IT HAS NO LIMIT rather than actually looking at the effects on a per round basis during the time period most D&D encounters take place in. There are definitely times when it shines, but versus many of the encounters a typical party faces the tradeoff of frontloaded high yield damage isn't worth it for reasonably consistant damage over a longer time period. And as pointed out above, the lack of an attack roll is compensated for by creatures with reflex saves, reflex saves + evasion, elemental immunity/resistancem, etc. Basically he trades off maximum damage potential and spell versatility/power for consistency in both areas, but he does it in a system that rewards extreme power and flexibility much more than it does consistency. This isn't to say the DFA is a bad class by any means, but the fact that you apparently think it outclasses something like the Wizard shows how little you really get the system. What makes this especially amusing to me is that you don't even see the Dragonfire Adept's real strengths which is the ability to use his mobility to take advantage of the Entangling Breath feat, the Slow Breath effect, and his awesome battlefield control invocations (Solid Fog that deals small ammounts of cold damage too? AMAZING) to shape the battlefield to his party's advantage.
Totentanz 03-21-07, 12:54 AM	The breath weapon is probably the least important part of the DFA. Compared to the core classes, that is pretty wimpy. I read it and scratched my head when I compared it to the warlock, though. Gets better everything, including class abilities. Less invocations but better ones overall and gets free "invocations" as breath effects. All for giving up armor? There are 1,000 ways of getting around that anyway. Still, not broken, but it doesn't make sense put up against its nearest cousin.
Chimaera2000 03-21-07, 01:18 AM	It's a rare few classes without full spellcasting progression that can actually qualify as overpowered (the artificer being one of them). The dragonfire adept is useful, no doubt, but it's damage output trails off as you gain higher and higher levels. It can be exceptionally good at low levels with Entangling Exhalation but afterwards it only really performs battlefield control, skills and utility well to semi-well. Yet again, I find myself referring to the wisdom of RadicalTaoist in this matter: Originally Posted by RadicalTaoist It bears saying: if up against a logic-impervious DM who thinks Core is balanced and Psionics (or Warlocks, or Fochlucan Lyrists, or anything balanced that's come out of splatbooks that aren't munchfests like Complete Divine) isn't, then the most powerful way to disprove that is to play a C.o.D. (Cleric or Druid). Noncore material will not be necessary unless you are going for pure overkill (Draconic Wildshape? Divine Metamagic?). So by all means, if you must win that argument, take you C.o.D. to town. Annihilate the opposition. Make the NPCs and other players scream "Oh no, it's C.o.D.zilla!!!!!" in badly dubbed English. Breathe radioactive fire. Knock down buildings. Then stomp out of the burning Tokyo that is the ruins of the game and swim off into the ocean, seeking a DM with some basic cognitive functions. Almost anything that the dragonfire adept can contribute, a wizard, cleric, druid, or artificer can do better.
crimsonwolf 03-21-07, 01:48 AM	so whats the real point ot taking this class if its subpar with the rest?
GhostStepper 03-21-07, 01:52 AM	Almost anything that the dragonfire adept can contribute, a wizard, cleric, druid, or artificer can do better. QFT. Im playing with an artificer in a game now at level 10 who uses a wand of fireball on occasion for grouped together enemies. He spends a round puting the Metamagic Item infusion with Energy Admixture on his wand and he is blasting with 20d6 fireballs for one charge a piece. And thats being conservative...i could easily see that going up to 80d6 if he wants to blow through infusions/charges. And thats on top of flying around all day with 3+ persisted spells. When he wants to take it easy and not use wands he just throws around his Energy Admixtured darkfire for 10d6 ranged touch attacks. Eat your heart out warlock/dragonfire. so whats the real point ot taking this class if its subpar with the rest? If your in a marathon encounter type game where there isnt much resting time this class could shine a bit more if other casters are running low on spells. In a campaign without much down time this class may hold its own against an artificer and if your DM like to dispell magic a lot your better off than character that rely on persistant spells such as the cleric or artificer.
Kurotowa 03-21-07, 03:29 AM	so whats the real point ot taking this class if its subpar with the rest? To which I reply, "Subpar by what measuring stick?" A Dragonfire Adept doesn't have the damage output of a melee monster or big blaster, but it has its own strengths. The right invocations, breath effects, and feats will make for a powerful battlefield controller and enemy hexer. True, it makes for less of a solo star, but when used to support a good party you'll contribute just as much as anyone else. And on a less combat focused note, the class can be fun! Juicy draconic flavor? Invocations that make me a master of every Knowledge or give me Change Shape? What's not to enjoy.
Chimaera2000 03-21-07, 03:38 AM	so whats the real point ot taking this class if its subpar with the rest? Fun, obviously. :) As danielinthewolvesden's (slightly dated) polls (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=369436) indicate, the most powerful classes are not the most fun classes for everyone. To use a Diablo II analogy (reinstalled the game recently out of nostalgia), the most powerful build overall is the "hammerdin." a paladin who repeatedly uses the spell "Blessed Hammer" to destroy any enemy he fights. However, despite their power, are the majority of Diablo II players hammerdins? Definitely not, and why? Other classes and builds are more fun! Just as not every Diablo II player has to be a hammerdin, so too does not every D & D player have to be a cleric, druid, wizard or artificer to contribute to a party. Besides, dragonfire adepts can be very effective at low levels (full spellcasters haven't picked up steam yet) and they can pull off a number of nice tricks through their invocations, including identify at will, huge bonuses to social or knowledge skills, flight, and battlefield control. Being able to use a breath weapon AT WILL in any armor you like is pretty cool too, you must admit. :)
Lone Wolf 03-21-07, 03:46 AM	I still think one of my favorite things about the class is the magic insight invocation. Detect magic at will, and then end the effect for a free identify spell? Sold. Seriously, I can't count the number of times this would've been awesome to have in the Eberron campaign I'm in (especially seeing as how the dice hate our artificer).
Chimaera2000 03-21-07, 07:19 AM	I personally love the Draconic Knowledge Invocation. Gain a +6 bonus to all Knowledge skills and Spellcraft (the equivalent of 66 skill points!) and use those skills untrained? Sign me up!
Caliborn 03-21-07, 08:25 AM	The breath Weapon in and of itself is pretty worthless; it becomes very powerful, possibly to the point of being slightly over-powered, when you take entangling exhalation at level one. After level one it lags in power slowly until level 5 when you can pick up slow breath and you suddenly become cool again. 1st and 5th levels are pretty much the height of your power, followed by a nice little bump once you can pick up the Tiamat breath power and actually manage to meaningfully hurt things with damage, which is normally relegated to the martial classes and CoDzilla.
MourninStar 03-21-07, 09:21 AM	The DFA has some pretty nifty advantages, lest we forget. The BW doesn't provoke AoO's to use it, plus all Knowledges and Speak language as class skills. AoE elemental damage every round is nice no matter how you cut it, especially since Ability Focus helps bump up that DC. Your fair share of monsters at higher levels will be able to make that Ref save, but they still take half damage. Their breath effects make for great battlefield control, and Improved Natural Armor can help you not get hit, and Improved Toughness can help you survive. Personally, I consider the class pretty effective at its intended role - backup damage and crowd control.
cthascott 03-21-07, 09:30 AM	To the op: The power of the dragonfire adept is not in its pure damage potential (unless you're lv 15 and have the tiamat breath). Its true power is in battlefield control with entangling exhalation feat (from RotD), slow breath, fear effects and chilling fog invocation. You can look up the DFA handbook from the char ops board if you're curious. I've played a DFA and this strategy is the one I used. After 6th level, it's not really worth it until you get to 15th so just multiclass. I was the leader of the group as I used the tactics side of the game to great efffect with my adventuremates. I was a Dragonborn Half-Giant that whomped with my grapple, then fire breath, then my racial cold/fire/electricity/acid whatever I wanted breath. The damage potential is not the good part of this class because it isn't 5d6+anything it's just 5d6, as a standard action no less.
nightwyrm 03-23-07, 12:26 AM	The DFA makes for a pretty decent class outside combat too. Its got all three social skills (bluff, diplomacy, intimidate) and all knowledge skills as class skills and also has invocations to buff those skill checks too. He can make a great "face" or "knows stuff" guy.
stsword 03-23-07, 08:00 PM	The breath weapon is probably the least important part of the DFA. Compared to the core classes, that is pretty wimpy. I read it and scratched my head when I compared it to the warlock, though. Gets better everything, including class abilities. Less invocations but better ones overall and gets free "invocations" as breath effects. All for giving up armor? There are 1,000 ways of getting around that anyway. Still, not broken, but it doesn't make sense put up against its nearest cousin. Funny, I'd say it's the dragonfire adept that doesn't stack up to the Warlock. Thea warlock has greater range, does more damage, can still gain eldritch blast invocations with spellcasting prestige classes, and can enhance their invocations and their eldritch blast with the same feats.