broken class? [Archive] - Wizards Community

broken class? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bringer of Ruination
03-09-05, 11:36 AM Hey all
As DM I encourage the PCs to come up with their own ideas for character development and research etc.
One PC has just returned with a PrC that he spent sometime on.
It is a wizard PrC that can wear medium armour without spell failure. I said that i thought this was a little broken as at later levels (they are level 7 now) it would make him very powerful at a low GP cost. As instead of spending loads of gold or xp on expensive magic items he could just supe up his armour AC.
He has argued that there are loads of other PrCs similar.
I know that my decision is final so i can just rule it out but i want to be fair...
can anyone tell me what they think - would you allow it?
or even if there are other PrCs like this. ;) cheers
dulsin
03-09-05, 11:44 AM There are already PRCs that will let you do this. Just take a few levels of those and you can ignore almost any armor.

War mage or Spell Blade will get you into medium armor by level 10.
Bringer of Ruination
03-09-05, 11:49 AM gee! but doesnt that make the arcane spellcaster v. hard?... i guess no more than the broken cleric.
Will Brandiman
03-09-05, 11:52 AM The Runesmith PrC from Races of Stone allows full casting in heavy armour so I don't think medium is game-breaking. Would need to see the rest of the PrC though to make any further comment.
Sinon
03-09-05, 11:57 AM If he gains armor use at the cost of caster progression, such as with the Spellsword, I think that would be fine. I can't think of any other cost that would make up for the benifit though.
Bringer of Ruination
03-09-05, 12:08 PM no he has it with full progression and armour use.
but if there are other classes similar...
also iguess a cleric can wear full plate and still progress at full spell level. i always think that arcane is more powerful than divine at high levels - but thats a whole new discussion.
Vatras
03-09-05, 01:58 PM You can always trust players to come up with PrCs, that do what the core rules do not allow for :)
Sinon
03-09-05, 03:53 PM no he has it with full progression and armour use.
but if there are other classes similar....
Yes, but what's the trade off? I don't know much about the warmage or anything about the spellblade, but I thought that the warmage was extremely limited as the number of spells known. This is a wizard: almost no limitations. In fact, I would guess that he is only giving up for this PrC is the wizard's bonus feats. That's not much.
Using the spellsword as an example, you need to have proficiency with all armor and martial weapons, which de facto requires you to dip into a level of fighter. Then you lose 4 levels of casting by the time you are a 10th level spellsword. At 20th level, you are looking at a caster level of only 15, no access to ninth-level spells. There are some other neat little bonuses for the spellsword (you get the fighter's BAB progression for those ten levels and can cast spells from your sword) but the armor is the biggest. Considering that a suit of plate costs 1,500 and bracers of armor +8 cost 64,000, it might be worth it. I know with full progression, it definitely would be.

also iguess a cleric can wear full plate and still progress at full spell level. i always think that arcane is more powerful than divine at high levels - but thats a whole new discussion.
That's apples and oranges. If you agree that there is a reason for arcane spell failure at all, maybe you don't, then overcoming it should come at at least some price.
saethone
03-09-05, 04:02 PM depends on what he has to give up for it, and how its incorperated into the world (i.e. how come he can and not every other mage?)
NineInchNall
03-10-05, 07:08 AM Never go fighter unless you need the feat. You can get into Spellsword by dipping into Dragonslayer, and that doesn't cost you a level of spell progression. Granted it requires Iron Will and Dodge, but does that really matter to a character that's getting bonus feats anyway?

So you go Wizard 10 -> Dragonslayer 1 -> Spellsword 7 --> Wizard 2.

7 levels of Spellsword loses you three levels of spell progression, but you still finish with 9th level spells, and you get neato stuff.
Nyferto
03-10-05, 07:53 AM How is he gaining proficiency? I know the Armour check penalty to attack won't matter that much.

Surfice to say, there's no PrC that gives this outright, only a few that let you get some of those benefits with some cost.
Bringer of Ruination
03-12-05, 09:09 AM thanks all. yes his idea was to lose the wizard bonus feats. not much of a trade off. i think i will get him to revisit the PrC - armed with this thread. :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bringer of Ruination 03-09-05, 11:36 AM	Hey all As DM I encourage the PCs to come up with their own ideas for character development and research etc. One PC has just returned with a PrC that he spent sometime on. It is a wizard PrC that can wear medium armour without spell failure. I said that i thought this was a little broken as at later levels (they are level 7 now) it would make him very powerful at a low GP cost. As instead of spending loads of gold or xp on expensive magic items he could just supe up his armour AC. He has argued that there are loads of other PrCs similar. I know that my decision is final so i can just rule it out but i want to be fair... can anyone tell me what they think - would you allow it? or even if there are other PrCs like this. ;) cheers
dulsin 03-09-05, 11:44 AM	There are already PRCs that will let you do this. Just take a few levels of those and you can ignore almost any armor. War mage or Spell Blade will get you into medium armor by level 10.
Bringer of Ruination 03-09-05, 11:49 AM	gee! but doesnt that make the arcane spellcaster v. hard?... i guess no more than the broken cleric.
Will Brandiman 03-09-05, 11:52 AM	The Runesmith PrC from Races of Stone allows full casting in heavy armour so I don't think medium is game-breaking. Would need to see the rest of the PrC though to make any further comment.
Sinon 03-09-05, 11:57 AM	If he gains armor use at the cost of caster progression, such as with the Spellsword, I think that would be fine. I can't think of any other cost that would make up for the benifit though.
Bringer of Ruination 03-09-05, 12:08 PM	no he has it with full progression and armour use. but if there are other classes similar... also iguess a cleric can wear full plate and still progress at full spell level. i always think that arcane is more powerful than divine at high levels - but thats a whole new discussion.
Vatras 03-09-05, 01:58 PM	You can always trust players to come up with PrCs, that do what the core rules do not allow for :)
Sinon 03-09-05, 03:53 PM	no he has it with full progression and armour use. but if there are other classes similar.... Yes, but what's the trade off? I don't know much about the warmage or anything about the spellblade, but I thought that the warmage was extremely limited as the number of spells known. This is a wizard: almost no limitations. In fact, I would guess that he is only giving up for this PrC is the wizard's bonus feats. That's not much. Using the spellsword as an example, you need to have proficiency with all armor and martial weapons, which de facto requires you to dip into a level of fighter. Then you lose 4 levels of casting by the time you are a 10th level spellsword. At 20th level, you are looking at a caster level of only 15, no access to ninth-level spells. There are some other neat little bonuses for the spellsword (you get the fighter's BAB progression for those ten levels and can cast spells from your sword) but the armor is the biggest. Considering that a suit of plate costs 1,500 and bracers of armor +8 cost 64,000, it might be worth it. I know with full progression, it definitely would be. also iguess a cleric can wear full plate and still progress at full spell level. i always think that arcane is more powerful than divine at high levels - but thats a whole new discussion. That's apples and oranges. If you agree that there is a reason for arcane spell failure at all, maybe you don't, then overcoming it should come at at least some price.
saethone 03-09-05, 04:02 PM	depends on what he has to give up for it, and how its incorperated into the world (i.e. how come he can and not every other mage?)
NineInchNall 03-10-05, 07:08 AM	Never go fighter unless you need the feat. You can get into Spellsword by dipping into Dragonslayer, and that doesn't cost you a level of spell progression. Granted it requires Iron Will and Dodge, but does that really matter to a character that's getting bonus feats anyway? So you go Wizard 10 -> Dragonslayer 1 -> Spellsword 7 --> Wizard 2. 7 levels of Spellsword loses you three levels of spell progression, but you still finish with 9th level spells, and you get neato stuff.
Nyferto 03-10-05, 07:53 AM	How is he gaining proficiency? I know the Armour check penalty to attack won't matter that much. Surfice to say, there's no PrC that gives this outright, only a few that let you get some of those benefits with some cost.
Bringer of Ruination 03-12-05, 09:09 AM	thanks all. yes his idea was to lose the wizard bonus feats. not much of a trade off. i think i will get him to revisit the PrC - armed with this thread. :D