Broken classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Broken classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aleolus
07-08-07, 02:47 PM What would you guys consider the most broken of all the 20-level "Base" classes, which book is it from, and why do you think it's broken?

Myself, I would have to say the Favored Soul, from the Complete Divine. They get Monk saving throws, a Cleric's BAB, and Sorc spells! The only thing about them that dials them back somewhat is that they only get Wiz skill points!
Aage
07-08-07, 02:50 PM Actually, they don't get sorc spells, they get cleric spells.... unless you were meaning the spontaneous casting... Also, they rely on both wis and cha for spellcasting, and don't get turn undead (which means no divine feats)...

General opinion on the boards would tell you that druid, cleric, wizard and artificer are the big 4... Some like to add in psion for the big 5....
Aleolus
07-08-07, 02:56 PM Actually, I'm pretty sure that Favored Souls just use their Cha for casting, again like a sorc. What I was meaning with that was that they cast divine spells the was a Sorc does arcane.
Aage
07-08-07, 02:59 PM Yeah, I figured that was what you meant... and favoured soul uses wisdom to, don't remember for what, but they do...
Witch
07-08-07, 03:01 PM Actually, I'm pretty sure that Favored Souls just use their Cha for casting, again like a sorc.
No, they use both Cha and Wis. They need to get both up to date.

What I was meaning with that was that they cast divine spells the was a Sorc does arcane.
Let me put an analogue to yours then:

"A cleric is just like a wizard, except he gets more spells per day, doesn't need a spellbook (and knows all spells on his class list), gets better saves, gets better hit die, gets more armor proficiencies, gets more weapon proficiencies, gets turn undead, gets special domain powers, ..."
Did I miss anything? I think I listed more than you did for the Favored Soul compared to the sorcerer.
maghana
07-08-07, 03:31 PM The Artificer [ECS]. "Can Do Anything Better".
OneWinged4ngel
07-08-07, 03:49 PM The general consensus is that the most powerful (if not "broken") classes are the Wizard, Cleric, Druid, and Artificer.

However, base classes themselves are rarely broken... it tends to be indivdual *tactics* that are broken.
maghana
07-08-07, 03:51 PM However, base classes themselves are rarely broken... it tends to be indivdual *tactics* that are broken.

That's almost a truism :D
Lotus Crane
07-08-07, 05:11 PM Actually, I'm pretty sure that Favored Souls just use their Cha for casting, again like a sorc.
Nope. Charisma determines whether you can cast a spell at all (you need a Cha of 19 to cast 9th level spells), and how many bonus spell slots per day you get. However, the save DC's of their spells are actually based on Wisdom. Therefore, while you don't absolutely need Wisdom, practically speaking, a favored soul with low Wisdom can never use offensive spells that allow saving throws.

The normal save DC for a 9th level spell cast by a standard spellcaster is higher than 30. Ignore Wisdom and your favored soul's 9th level spell DC will be lower than 20.

Anyway, the general consensus is that favored souls are actually inferior to clerics, because despite the additional good save and the various special abilities, spontaneous spellcasting (with limited spells known) is a huge drawback, even more so for favored souls than for sorcerers (at least sorcerers gain the relative advantage of not needing a wizard's spellbook; clerics don't have such a limitation and basically "know" every spell on their list already).

The split-stat spellcasting and medium armor increases MAD, and the lack of the turn undead ability means that favored souls can't abuse the Divine Metamagic (or other divine feat) tricks that clerics do.
Goldmoon
07-08-07, 05:22 PM I think I'm going to have to say tha Factotum after seeing it in play. What cant it do?
Lotus Crane
07-08-07, 05:40 PM I think I'm going to have to say tha Factotum after seeing it in play. What cant it do?
Well, it can't do everything at the same time (you're kinda limited to just one role at a time, because even if you blow all your inspiration to have multiple archetypes' abilities simultaneously, you're still limited to one set of actions per round), and if you try to do something too well, you run out of inspiration halfway through the day.

Factotums tend to run into the same crippling shortages that psionic classes do.
Edea
07-08-07, 06:23 PM I think I'm going to have to say tha Factotum after seeing it in play. What cant it do?

Did you see it pre-FoI or post-FoI? Just curious, not as an argument.

Also, full spellcasters themselves aren't broken. Spells (As in, the primary tactics full spellcasters employ) are broken, on a grand scale. The 'best' classes seem to be the ones that get the spells, get the largest amount of them known, and get them as quickly as possible (a big point for Arties). This is why Beholder Mage is a PrC worthy of a Dirty Trick thread (and it's the very first of them, isn't it?) and many CO builds use Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord, and the like to shore up character concepts that initially don't seem to have the otherwise optimal spellcasting focus due to base class choices.
Salla
07-08-07, 06:35 PM Druid.
turalisj
07-08-07, 06:43 PM Actually, I'm pretty sure that Favored Souls just use their Cha for casting, again like a sorc. What I was meaning with that was that they cast divine spells the was a Sorc does arcane.

The favored soul is anything but broken. They use both wisdom and charisma for casting (wisdom for saving throws, charisma for spell per day), they need point in strength, dexterity, constitution, wisdom, and charisma. They have no dumpstat to speak of.

Personally, I removed the clerics weapon prof (knocked them to simple), armor proficiency (they get light and medium, and only light shields), and stuck their BaB to poor. Oh, and only those with the war domain get divine might.

I'm sure I'm going to get a 'What?!? You made it so the cleric isn't a tank anymore?!?" Yes, that is exactly what I did. I also knocked the druid's BaB down a notch. I don't like my casters being tanks.
calronmoonflower
07-08-07, 06:44 PM No, they use both Cha and Wis. They need to get both up to date.

Let me put an analogue to yours then:

"A cleric is just like a wizard, except he gets more spells per day, doesn't need a spellbook (and knows all spells on his class list), gets better saves, gets better hit die, gets more armor proficiencies, gets more weapon proficiencies, gets turn undead, gets special domain powers, ..."
Did I miss anything? I think I listed more than you did for the Favored Soul compared to the sorcerer.

Yep. Spontaneously casting cure/inflict spells.
turalisj
07-08-07, 06:58 PM Oh, and reduced the cleric and druid's hd down to d6. I think that covers it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aleolus 07-08-07, 02:47 PM	What would you guys consider the most broken of all the 20-level "Base" classes, which book is it from, and why do you think it's broken? Myself, I would have to say the Favored Soul, from the Complete Divine. They get Monk saving throws, a Cleric's BAB, and Sorc spells! The only thing about them that dials them back somewhat is that they only get Wiz skill points!
Aage 07-08-07, 02:50 PM	Actually, they don't get sorc spells, they get cleric spells.... unless you were meaning the spontaneous casting... Also, they rely on both wis and cha for spellcasting, and don't get turn undead (which means no divine feats)... General opinion on the boards would tell you that druid, cleric, wizard and artificer are the big 4... Some like to add in psion for the big 5....
Aleolus 07-08-07, 02:56 PM	Actually, I'm pretty sure that Favored Souls just use their Cha for casting, again like a sorc. What I was meaning with that was that they cast divine spells the was a Sorc does arcane.
Aage 07-08-07, 02:59 PM	Yeah, I figured that was what you meant... and favoured soul uses wisdom to, don't remember for what, but they do...
Witch 07-08-07, 03:01 PM	Actually, I'm pretty sure that Favored Souls just use their Cha for casting, again like a sorc. No, they use both Cha and Wis. They need to get both up to date. What I was meaning with that was that they cast divine spells the was a Sorc does arcane. Let me put an analogue to yours then: "A cleric is just like a wizard, except he gets more spells per day, doesn't need a spellbook (and knows all spells on his class list), gets better saves, gets better hit die, gets more armor proficiencies, gets more weapon proficiencies, gets turn undead, gets special domain powers, ..." Did I miss anything? I think I listed more than you did for the Favored Soul compared to the sorcerer.
maghana 07-08-07, 03:31 PM	The Artificer [ECS]. "Can Do Anything Better".
OneWinged4ngel 07-08-07, 03:49 PM	The general consensus is that the most powerful (if not "broken") classes are the Wizard, Cleric, Druid, and Artificer. However, base classes themselves are rarely broken... it tends to be indivdual tactics that are broken.
maghana 07-08-07, 03:51 PM	However, base classes themselves are rarely broken... it tends to be indivdual tactics that are broken. That's almost a truism :D
Lotus Crane 07-08-07, 05:11 PM	Actually, I'm pretty sure that Favored Souls just use their Cha for casting, again like a sorc. Nope. Charisma determines whether you can cast a spell at all (you need a Cha of 19 to cast 9th level spells), and how many bonus spell slots per day you get. However, the save DC's of their spells are actually based on Wisdom. Therefore, while you don't absolutely need Wisdom, practically speaking, a favored soul with low Wisdom can never use offensive spells that allow saving throws. The normal save DC for a 9th level spell cast by a standard spellcaster is higher than 30. Ignore Wisdom and your favored soul's 9th level spell DC will be lower than 20. Anyway, the general consensus is that favored souls are actually inferior to clerics, because despite the additional good save and the various special abilities, spontaneous spellcasting (with limited spells known) is a huge drawback, even more so for favored souls than for sorcerers (at least sorcerers gain the relative advantage of not needing a wizard's spellbook; clerics don't have such a limitation and basically "know" every spell on their list already). The split-stat spellcasting and medium armor increases MAD, and the lack of the turn undead ability means that favored souls can't abuse the Divine Metamagic (or other divine feat) tricks that clerics do.
Goldmoon 07-08-07, 05:22 PM	I think I'm going to have to say tha Factotum after seeing it in play. What cant it do?
Lotus Crane 07-08-07, 05:40 PM	I think I'm going to have to say tha Factotum after seeing it in play. What cant it do? Well, it can't do everything at the same time (you're kinda limited to just one role at a time, because even if you blow all your inspiration to have multiple archetypes' abilities simultaneously, you're still limited to one set of actions per round), and if you try to do something too well, you run out of inspiration halfway through the day. Factotums tend to run into the same crippling shortages that psionic classes do.
Edea 07-08-07, 06:23 PM	I think I'm going to have to say tha Factotum after seeing it in play. What cant it do? Did you see it pre-FoI or post-FoI? Just curious, not as an argument. Also, full spellcasters themselves aren't broken. Spells (As in, the primary tactics full spellcasters employ) are broken, on a grand scale. The 'best' classes seem to be the ones that get the spells, get the largest amount of them known, and get them as quickly as possible (a big point for Arties). This is why Beholder Mage is a PrC worthy of a Dirty Trick thread (and it's the very first of them, isn't it?) and many CO builds use Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord, and the like to shore up character concepts that initially don't seem to have the otherwise optimal spellcasting focus due to base class choices.
Salla 07-08-07, 06:35 PM	Druid.
turalisj 07-08-07, 06:43 PM	Actually, I'm pretty sure that Favored Souls just use their Cha for casting, again like a sorc. What I was meaning with that was that they cast divine spells the was a Sorc does arcane. The favored soul is anything but broken. They use both wisdom and charisma for casting (wisdom for saving throws, charisma for spell per day), they need point in strength, dexterity, constitution, wisdom, and charisma. They have no dumpstat to speak of. Personally, I removed the clerics weapon prof (knocked them to simple), armor proficiency (they get light and medium, and only light shields), and stuck their BaB to poor. Oh, and only those with the war domain get divine might. I'm sure I'm going to get a 'What?!? You made it so the cleric isn't a tank anymore?!?" Yes, that is exactly what I did. I also knocked the druid's BaB down a notch. I don't like my casters being tanks.
calronmoonflower 07-08-07, 06:44 PM	No, they use both Cha and Wis. They need to get both up to date. Let me put an analogue to yours then: "A cleric is just like a wizard, except he gets more spells per day, doesn't need a spellbook (and knows all spells on his class list), gets better saves, gets better hit die, gets more armor proficiencies, gets more weapon proficiencies, gets turn undead, gets special domain powers, ..." Did I miss anything? I think I listed more than you did for the Favored Soul compared to the sorcerer. Yep. Spontaneously casting cure/inflict spells.
turalisj 07-08-07, 06:58 PM	Oh, and reduced the cleric and druid's hd down to d6. I think that covers it.