Post/Author/DateTime	Post
feartheinvinceblehamster 05-09-05, 08:39 PM	I have noticed some of the new classes are unfair, note that i say new. I don't want to hear about the fighter being under/over powered. And koga, I really do not want to hear about your newly unreasonably nerfed "fixes" for the new class. my first: bear warrior: at 17th level in bear form they can have around 50 strength
Manyfist 05-09-05, 08:49 PM	I have noticed some of the new classes are unfair, note that i say new. I don't want to hear about the fighter being under/over powered. And koga, I really do not want to hear about your newly unreasonably nerfed "fixes" for the new class. my first: bear warrior: at 17th level in bear form they can have around 50 strength Bear Warriors also don't get BaB, so you're at a BAB wise of X lvls down. Sure if you get a Hit off of a person you might kill them, but you can't hit very many. Balanced.
RadicalTaoist 05-09-05, 10:06 PM	At 17th level, Wizards and Druids get Shapechange. Winner: Wizards and Druids. At 17th level, Clerics get Implosion. Wizards and Clerics get Gate. That sounds like shattered game balance to me. At 17th level, the Bear Warrior Barbarian gets 50 Strength and some serious size increases, plus loads of HP from their enhanced Con plus, you know, the chance to ACTUALLY BE A THREAT IN MELEE to the kinds of Colossal to Huge enemies (wyrm red dragons, Nightcrawler Nightshades, Giants with PC levels, NPC druids, etc.) they will be facing around those levels. To do this, he must give up use of most of his magic items, not to mention fall back on noncore sources if he wants to penetrate DR (which is a pretty big deal for melee characters). Last I checked, bears can't wear boots, or gloves, or rings... In short, it seems to me that every time a melee character manages to become serious in melee, which is only the goal they've devoted their entire character design towards, they get accusations of "unbalanced!" WTF? I can see why Sereg don't post much anymore.
Plastic Sun 05-10-05, 01:30 AM	I agree wit Taoist...it seems the fighter classes always get the short end of the stick..
djinni 05-10-05, 01:42 AM	I don't want to hear about the fighter being under/over powered. you want to address the new things ignoring the old ones? what are you going to compare them to? you have to compare the new classes to the old ones. A druid/conjurer multiclass can summon more than one of something that outshines the bear warrior. and pretty much any "new" class. the fighter issue need not be addressed as a barbarian frenzied berserker can prolly get close to the bear warrior's strength and most of the time not even frenzying.
quaiven 05-10-05, 02:55 AM	if you really want to talk broken look at the Warlock and Warmage. Why would anyone want to play a sorcorer or wizard with those classes available? I won't even mention all the broken spells in CA. Complete Arcane = totally broken.
Mellowship Slinky 05-10-05, 03:52 AM	The Scout class irks me, they get almost every ability that a rogue would want from the Fighter, Ranger, and Druid classes (Bonus feats, Camoflage, Hide in Plain Sight, and Trackless Step? Sign me up!), at 18th level are impossible to grapple (huh, wha?), and Skirmish just screams "I don't want to bother trying to flank my opponents." Oh, and they get blindsight, blindsight?
Count Arioch the 28th 05-10-05, 09:13 AM	They also can't disarm traps, get about 1/2 the bonus damage that rogues get, can only skirmish once per round. Actually, I think the two are about even power-wise. One minor thing about the Wu-jen that was pointed out to me on another gaming MB: The spell "Giant size" does not make any sort of reference to a previous size, it's a flat bonus regardless of your size before you cast the spell. Cast Polymorph to turn yourself into a fire giant, then cast giant size. Regardless of the fact you were large to begin with, you'll get full bonuses. Likewise, polymorphing into something evasive then casting dimunutive size is a way to avoid getting hit by stuff. (Note that diminutive size is better cast on yourself than the enemies if you're trying to avoid getting hit. Not useful 100% of the time, but occasionally a very good idea.) However, Wu-jen is one of thos classes that otherwise underpowered except for a few poorly-written spells breaking it. That seems to be a trend lately, not very powerful when used as intended, but breaks easily under scrutiny.
Navar 05-10-05, 09:59 AM	if you really want to talk broken look at the Warlock and Warmage. Why would anyone want to play a sorcorer or wizard with those classes available? Warlock, you are kidding me right. A Sorcerer does more damage pretty much at every level, and likely won't run out of spells. The utility spells that they get they get levels later than Wizards or Sorcerers. What exactly is good about the warlock again? Warmage, I know you are just a troll or you haven’t thought this one through. While the Warlock has flavor and personality, the Warmage is just a blaster. That is it. They get none of the "great" spells that Wizards and Sorcerers live by. IIRC they get 6 save or die spells (where the sorcerer and wizard get at least 1 (more often 2) every level, and 3 of those 6 are 9th level spells. They don't get a single save or die spell until level 6. They get their spells 1 level behind the wizard so their power level is dependant on that. They can't even use spell completion items (wands, scrolls, staffs, and some rods) to cast spells not on their list. They can't fly. They can't turn invisible. They can't teleport. Saying that they are more powerful than a wizard or sorcerer would be funny, if I didn't think you were serious. I won't even mention all the broken spells in CA. Complete Arcane = totally broken. Please mention the spells you think are broken. I would love to hear them.
Count Arioch the 28th 05-10-05, 11:16 AM	Although I cannot speak for Quaiven, I can say a few things about the spells in Complete Arcane. Most of the spells I have little problems with. The ones that bug me are the conjurations spells that don't allow SR. Not only is it stepping all over evocation's toes, it gives conjuration what evocation really needs and conjuration does not need: A way to get around SR. (Most of conjuration spells summon creatures, therefore no SR checks anyway.) In my game, all of the orb spells, and the few other conjuration spells that deal damage that bypasses SR is moved into evocation, with the exception of Vitriolic sphere. (I can see a spell summoning a bunch of acid, as it's a substance. However, fire, electricity, sonic, and cold are energy, not substances. Tehrefore, I have problems with them being "summoned".) Edit: And I've heard that at high levels, warlocks can be pretty brutal. I've heard that Tenacious plague plus chilling tentacles is pretty beastly. Warmage is only broken if you still beleive that Sorcerors are supposed to be the best "blaster mages". They are not, I'd say it's Warmage, Wilder, Psion, Wizard, then sorceror myself. But since I never really beleived they were good at blasting, I am not threatened by the warmage one bit, as I've already revised the sorceror, compared to my revised sorceror, the warmage isn't that great. But I can see how others might disagree, people who you know, play by the rules and such. ;)
Lord Schpungus 05-10-05, 11:40 AM	Anything a warlock does at 20th level is still not equal to disintegrate, or scorching ray, or a 4th level Orb spell. I won't even begin to discuss any spell over 7th level because spellcasters wipe the floor with the warlock all the time. The only advantage the warlock has is endurance.
DM Denubis 05-10-05, 11:47 AM	Warlocks are a different mechanic than spellcasters, and they should not be compared. A warlock, in truth, is more in line with the fighter or paladin.
Count Arioch the 28th 05-10-05, 11:49 AM	Anything a warlock does at 20th level is still not equal to disintegrate, or scorching ray, or a 4th level Orb spell. I won't even begin to discuss any spell over 7th level because spellcasters wipe the floor with the warlock all the time. The only advantage the warlock has is endurance. I disagree, an edvard's black tentacles spell is a lot better than scorching ray or disintegrate. A spell that shuts down an opponent entirely is better than one that deals damage. Cast the tentacles, and hold them down while the fighter takes shots at them with arrows will do more damage in the long run with a lower expense of resources.
Navar 05-10-05, 12:02 PM	I disagree, an edvard's black tentacles spell is a lot better than scorching ray or disintegrate. A spell that shuts down an opponent entirely is better than one that deals damage. Cast the tentacles, and hold them down while the fighter takes shots at them with arrows will do more damage in the long run with a lower expense of resources. This is true, but at level 20 a Sorcerer can cast Black Tentacles 36 times per day. So the Sorcerer might as well be able to do it unlimited (and that is without bonus spells.)
feartheinvinceblehamster 05-10-05, 07:54 PM	if you really want to talk broken look at the Warlock and Warmage. Why would anyone want to play a sorcorer or wizard with those classes available? I won't even mention all the broken spells in CA. Complete Arcane = totally broken. chuckles about his wizard dishing out 1d8+7 damage at 3rd level because of Fist Of Stone... that spell and emerald flame fist could keep most mages alive to see epic
Arcanis the wacher 05-10-05, 08:01 PM	well imop i thing the Artifcer is preaty broken
-Defiler of Souls- 05-10-05, 09:58 PM	if you really want to talk broken look at the Warlock and Warmage. Why would anyone want to play a sorcorer or wizard with those classes available? I won't even mention all the broken spells in CA. Complete Arcane = totally broken. :rofl: anyway that aside: personally the only things i really think are bad are: frenzied berserker, initiate of the sevenfold veil, giant size, and divine metamagic as for those who said Bear Warrior: keep in mind in bear form you only get a max of 2.5x your str modifier where with normal weapons you can achieve up to 7.5x your str modifier, not to mention your bear paws can't be enchanted also for the whole warlock argument: in my current campaign we have a warlock and he's currently probably the most powerful member of the party(not enough so to be overpowered but the point is he deffinately holds his own)
Manyfist 05-10-05, 10:15 PM	well imop i thing the Artifcer is preaty broken You kidding? Sure an Artificer can have access to all Divine and Arcane Spells, but he has to spend XP or Precious Craft Reserve to do so. Also every thing is about setting up, artificers are more time consuming than Wizards when researching. I love Artificer since they have repair ''Spells'', at will, that really helps with the Warforged Barbarian/Fighter/Rouge/Paladin...etc. :D
Arcanis the wacher 05-10-05, 10:19 PM	You kidding? Sure an Artificer can have access to all Divine and Arcane Spells, but he has to spend XP or Precious Craft Reserve to do so. Also every thing is about setting up, artificers are more time consuming than Wizards when researching. I love Artificer since they have repair ''Spells'', at will, that really helps with the Warforged Barbarian/Fighter/Rouge/Paladin...etc. :D and retain essence,
Manyfist 05-10-05, 10:29 PM	and retain essence, You got to look at this way, they are either Ultimate Healer, Ultimate Buffer, or Ultimate Nuker... they may switch at any time but they are mostly focused on one thing at a time. While you got a Wizard, Druid, and Cleric that can do all of it since they can basically know there massive spell list by them selves. I think thats a bit overpowered my self seening how they can do any thing, even if not prepared for it, they can prepare on the fly.
slade_caizer 05-10-05, 10:58 PM	You got to look at this way, they are either Ultimate Healer, Ultimate Buffer, or Ultimate Nuker... they may switch at any time but they are mostly focused on one thing at a time. While you got a Wizard, Druid, and Cleric that can do all of it since they can basically know there massive spell list by them selves. I think thats a bit overpowered my self seening how they can do any thing, even if not prepared for it, they can prepare on the fly. I admit I don't know for a certainty, but doesn't it take something like 15 minutes to finish preparation? Taken by surprise or found unprepared usually doesn't allow that much for prep. However, I would concede that they could do so in the case of low pressure dungeon puzzles or less-than-lethal traps. There are conditions where it's good and several where it is useless. Besides, doesn't the bard always get dumped on because it's a jack of all trades and master of none?
slade_caizer 05-10-05, 11:00 PM	of Soulsalso for the whole warlock argument: in my current campaign we have a warlock and he's currently probably the most powerful member of the party(not enough so to be overpowered but the point is he deffinately holds his own) I agree that Divine Metamagic is incredibly abusable. On another note, in what ways is your warlock the most powerful? This is not meant as an argument. On the contrary, I've encountered this (ok done it myself) a few times now. I'm just honestly curious about what is being done--and maybe hoping to learn some tricks.
Manyfist 05-10-05, 11:14 PM	I admit I don't know for a certainty, but doesn't it take something like 15 minutes to finish preparation? Taken by surprise or found unprepared usually doesn't allow that much for prep. However, I would concede that they could do so in the case of low pressure dungeon puzzles or less-than-lethal traps. There are conditions where it's good and several where it is useless. Besides, doesn't the bard always get dumped on because it's a jack of all trades and master of none? It takes one hour(Game Time, not Real time) to prepare all your spells for the day. But if you swap out spells it only takes 3-5 Rounds I think, don't quote me on that.
Mellowship Slinky 05-10-05, 11:20 PM	They also can't disarm traps, get about 1/2 the bonus damage that rogues get, can only skirmish once per round. Actually, I think the two are about even power-wise. I don't know what kind of tactics you use, but anyone who allows a flanking rogue to take a full-attack action on them is an idiot. Scouts only get half damage, but they get that damage guaranteed as long as they move 10ft before they attack, at first level (when skirmish damage is the same as sneak attack damage, and rogues have to use two weapon fightincg to get multiple attacks, in which case they'll have an abysmal to hit, since they can't have weapon finesse) This is huge. The only way a rogue gets his sneak attack damage is if he's flanking, invisible, hidden, blinking, attacks someone in a grapple, or wins initiative in the surprise round. Flanking: the rogue needs to put himself into harms way. Rogue attempts to flank dragon, rogue gets squished. Invisible/Blinking: rogue needs to multiclass (sacrificing skill points and lessening sneak attack damage) or beg party wizard to cast blink or greater invisibility every combat. Rings of Invisibility take a standard action to activate and only work for one attack (after the first you aren't invisibile), Wands of greater invisibility are expensive and, once again, take a standard action (that's hardly guaranteed to succeed for most of the Rogue's low-level career). And the Blink spell gives a 20% miss chance. Don't forget that Uncanny Dodge negates invisibility. Surprise round: forget once per round, the rogue can only do this once per combat. Hidden: The sniping action needs gobs of points to be placed into Hide to be effective, and you only get one attack with it, just like Skirmish. Attacks someone in a grapple: this doesn't work if you're in the grapple, only if you attack someone who is grappling, the rogue is reliant on another character to grapple things so the rogue can attack it. Interesting note: since a Scout gets Blindsight, Uncanny Dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and free movement, the only way a 20th level scout can be sneak attacked by a Rogue is if the rogue is blinking. The only way a 20th level rogue can't be skirmished by a Scout is to have armor of heavy fortification or be otherwise immune to critical hits.
John Q. Mayhem 05-11-05, 12:25 AM	You forgot feinting, but that suffers from the one-attack, too. I don't know what kind of tactics you use, but anyone who allows a flanking rogue to take a full-attack action on them is an idiot. The flankee doesn't necessarily know that it's a rogue. And there'll be times when you can't get out of the flanking situation. Scouts only get half damage, but they get that damage guaranteed as long as they move 10ft before they attack, at first level (when skirmish damage is the same as sneak attack damage, and rogues have to use two weapon fightincg to get multiple attacks, in which case they'll have an abysmal to hit, since they can't have weapon finesse) This is huge. And mostly irrelevent, because it's only at first through third level. The only way a rogue gets his sneak attack damage is if he's flanking, invisible, hidden, blinking, attacks someone in a grapple, or wins initiative in the surprise round. You forgot feinting, but that's got the one-attack problem. Yes, the rogue "only" gets his major damage in 8 ways (the ways you mentioned, plus feint and the surprise round, which is different from winning initiative). And the scout "only" skirmishes when they move 10 ft. Your point? Flanking: the rogue needs to put himself into harms way. Rogue attempts to flank dragon, rogue gets squished. Truth. Best for rogue/warriors, or when not fighting a melee-monster. Not all enemies will be masters of melee. Invisible/Blinking: rogue needs to multiclass (sacrificing skill points and lessening sneak attack damage) or beg party wizard to cast blink or greater invisibility every combat. Rings of Invisibility take a standard action to activate and only work for one attack (after the first you aren't invisibile), Wands of greater invisibility are expensive and, once again, take a standard action (that's hardly guaranteed to succeed for most of the Rogue's low-level career). And the Blink spell gives a 20% miss chance. Good points. Blink is still a valuable option, though, especially if you've got a lot of attacks. Don't forget that Uncanny Dodge negates invisibility. Surprise round: forget once per round, the rogue can only do this once per combat. And it's extremely effective. Even more so if you're using rapid shot. Hidden: The sniping action needs gobs of points to be placed into Hide to be effective, and you only get one attack with it, just like Skirmish. Yup. A striking example of one of D&D's little sillinesses. Attacks someone in a grapple: this doesn't work if you're in the grapple, only if you attack someone who is grappling, the rogue is reliant on another character to grapple things so the rogue can attack it. This is not at all a main way for rogues to get SA. It's a nice little bonus that shows up now and then. Interesting note: since a Scout gets Blindsight, Uncanny Dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and free movement, the only way a 20th level scout can be sneak attacked by a Rogue is if the rogue is blinking. The only way a 20th level rogue can't be skirmished by a Scout is to have armor of heavy fortification or be otherwise immune to critical hits. Feinting still works. And, since the scout only gets one attack, that's not as good as it seems. Blindsight is only at 20th level, and rings of blinking are good for rogues anyways. I think that you are severly overestimating the power of skirmish. It's only one attack per round (unless you've got Manyshot or Dual Strike), it requires you to move (not always possible), and it doesn't give as much bonus damage as SA. Not saying you're a fool or that you don't have good points, but skirmish really ain't all that uber.
thndraven 05-11-05, 04:52 AM	It's only one attack per round (unless you've got Manyshot or Dual Strike) actually it would still only be one attack as precision damage is only applied to the first arrow with Manyshot and the primary hand with Dual Strike. ;) i agree the scout class is not over powerful at all, but i still love it. :)
DM Denubis 05-11-05, 07:59 AM	Greater Manyshot, people. Greater Manyshot. It's in the SRD, and it is a godlike feat for any scout. No, seriously. It allows you to make all those attacks with multiple attack rolls. Which means skirmish damage on a bunch of attacks. Whee. Personally, I don't like skirmish as much as sneak attack, however. Sneak attack can deal a lot more damage, and doesn't need so much effort to use it in a full attack.
DuskyFruit 05-11-05, 09:52 AM	The warlock is truly powerful, all it's abilities are at will!!! Dimension door at will, invisibility at will, dispel magic that damages original caster at will, fly at will!!! and along with that he have the most powerful ranged attack in the game :eek:
Navar 05-11-05, 10:09 AM	The warlock is truly powerful,[sic] all it's abilities are at will!!! Dimension door at will, invisibility at will, dispel magic that damages original caster at will, fly at will!!![sic] and[sic] along with that he have[sic] the most powerful ranged attack in the game :eek: I truly hope that you are joking. "the most powerful ranged attack in the game" How is this even close to true? A Sorcerer of the same level can do these things 10+ times per day, how many times do you see a warlock doing them? Maybe 11? Dispel Magic that damages the caster is as a touch attack. Most agree that this is one of the worst invocations a warlock can pick. Lots of things fly. I really hope that you are kidding or trolling because if not . . . WOW
ArochanoX 05-11-05, 10:11 AM	Hospitaler - he gets too much everything Radiant servant of pelor - too much healing Rainbow servant or something - combine this with warmage! Divine metamagic as already said Sublime chord - Spell level for free is too much Warlock - as already said Note that single one class isn't usually broken, class combinations are.
Navar 05-11-05, 10:14 AM	Warlock - as already said Note that single one class isn't usually broken, class combinations are. Please restate why the warlock is overpowered for us. I would love to hear your reasons.
Navar 05-11-05, 11:11 AM	Noone can come up with a reason the warlocks are overpowered? I say cowards you all.
GetitCJC 05-11-05, 11:28 AM	If a scout has Pounce, he can charge, thus moving 10 ft and getting the extra damage with all of his attacks, because you can take a full attack action after charging. So yeah, the scout can make a great deal of extra damage a round, only against one target, or at least a bunch who stand together. More than a rogue, who only gets his extra damage dice in certin circumstances.
Navar 05-11-05, 12:55 PM	If a scout has Pounce, he can charge, thus moving 10 ft and getting the extra damage with all of his attacks, because you can take a full attack action after charging. So yeah, the scout can make a great deal of extra damage a round, only against one target, or at least a bunch who stand together. More than a rogue, who only gets his extra damage dice in certin circumstances. But how many ways can you give a scout Pounce?
Zsasz_Diedne 05-11-05, 03:24 PM	But how many ways can you give a scout Pounce? Wondrous Item of Lion's Pounce or mix in 5 levels of Druid and take the feat, Claws of the Leopard (magic spiked gauntlets in CAdv), the easiest I can come up with off the top of my head, there are more. As was metioned before it's rare when a straight class is in and of itself broken, it's the combinations, as any CO board regular well knows, that makes things crazy. Bear Warrior? *shrug* Barb/BW/Frenzied Zerker/Warshaper? Scary. If your going epic throw in Druid/Daggerspell Shaper to the point where natural weapons retain your dagger's enchantments. Frenzied Berseker? Wow, a melee character who is as frightenining in combat as any straight caster? You don't say? Warlock? Hm, I like the class, but the ability to cast a handful of abilities a unlimited number of time per day isn't quite as broken as you'd think. Taking Supernatural Transformation on your Eldritch Blast for totally unresistable damage is nice though. The Artificer? Next to the Druid one of the scariest straight classes in the game, and one of my favorites. The ability to do 24d6 damage a round by 9th level is just a tad bit busted IMO. For a full breakdown on this and other fun and useful tricks see This (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=287275) thread
Gurthoron 05-11-05, 03:27 PM	To give the scout pounce will require multiclassing or taking racial hit dice, or being epic and getting Dire Charge. Plus, a Rogue with pounce will do the same thing with even more sneak attack dice if he surprises his opponents. A rogue is a far superior damage dealer to a scout. However, a scout is better in a defensive role. (AC bonus from skirmishing, anyone?) Rogues are probably the most powerful class in the PHB when played by powergamers. I have a lvl 32 Rogue (not the one mentioned in sig) which has been dishing out around 400 damage per round, twice as much as the Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker. Rogues slaughter. As for other overpowered classes, there are very few stand alone classes that are too powerful. Its usually the combination that does it. I do have a couple that are a little powerful though: Soul Eater: Drains levels by touch. Good base attack bonus, good saves, decent skill points and hit dice. Gets bonus from levels he drains. BOVD Warshaper: A 5 level class that grants +4 str and Con while wildshaped/shapechanged/whatever (and why wouldn't you be if you had this), immunity to crits, flanks, etc., reach, and some other great abilities. CW Tempest: Reduction of dual-wield penalties, feats applying to both weapons, two-wep spring attack. CA Warhulk: Only in certain campaigns were you often face numerous enemies. However, a warhulk/hulking hurler would be terrifying. Fortunately, such a creature would be epic at least. MHB Thats what I can come up with off the top of my head. Oh, and about warlocks: Eldritch Blast is outpowered by any archery based combatant or by offensive spellcasters 11 abilities at will is not as good as 30 or so sorcs get a lesser number of times per day. I've never seen a sorc run out of spells anyway. Fast healing, DR, misc crap- practicly worthless. Warlocks are dumbed-down sorcs for us fightery types who don't get the whole spellcaster thing. Serious spellcasters should stick to something else.
Koga:The ninja trick 05-11-05, 04:42 PM	And koga, I really do not want to hear about your newly unreasonably nerfed "fixes" for the new class. The-- Oh.. :( *Walks away* :P Actually The Koga has lessend on "fixing" classes and really just threw out all spellcasters exsept for storm druid, fideleh, and magewright who The Koga tweaked to Balor. Paladins/Rangers now get bonus feats at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level and that's it. No-one's complaining. Then again The Koga was never known for implementing character balance as much as plot device. Like how currently strange omens have happend and they're like "You didn't give us any warning and our worlds have turned completely upside down!" I then point them to the screwy numbers I posted on the side of thier character sheets. A numerical code derived from the alphabet which The Koga likes to call "Koga code". Such messages have included "he will change" "he was wrong" and "it's a lie". The group was quite impressed and now dillegently tries to interpet Koga Code. Their not very good at it The Koga should add lol.
Zsasz_Diedne 05-11-05, 05:06 PM	Warshaper: A 5 level class that grants +4 str and Con while wildshaped/shapechanged/whatever (and why wouldn't you be if you had this), immunity to crits, flanks, etc., reach, and some other great abilities. CW Incorrect, they get the +4 no matter what shape they are in:) Tempest: Reduction of dual-wield penalties, feats applying to both weapons, two-wep spring attack. CA Just as the original class, only more concise, all it really did was turn the ambidexterity feat into a class feature. Still, has nothing on the Dervish (though 2 or 3 levels of this plus Dervish is nice). I would hardly call the clas broken though. Warhulk: Only in certain campaigns were you often face numerous enemies. However, a warhulk/hulking hurler would be terrifying. Fortunately, such a creature would be epic at least. MHB And if you've ever read Incubus' Hurler thread on the CO board, you'd know just how terrifying, and to frighten you just a bit more, you can do that combo pre-epic quite easily. To give the scout pounce will require multiclassing or taking racial hit dice, or being epic and getting Dire Charge. Or just get the magic items I suggested, either way a charging scout or rogue is an amusing thought, unless they've multiclassed somewhere or are looking to geek a caster they shouldn't be charging at all.
Azri 05-11-05, 05:57 PM	I have a lvl 32 Rogue (not the one mentioned in sig) which has been dishing out around 400 damage per round, twice as much as the Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker. Rogues slaughter.How is your rogue getting SAs on anything at epic?
Mellowship Slinky 05-11-05, 06:37 PM	You forgot feinting, but that suffers from the one-attack, too. Yeah, I remembered and was going to point it out. Unless you're an Invisible Blade, Feinting is really bad: it takes a full round to improved feint+attack (improved feint takes a move action, and feint can only be done in melee. Oh, and feinting in combat requires a check of your bluff vs. their sense motive + BAB, and a surprising number of monsters have very high sense motive scores for their CR. So bluffing is far from reliable. Yes, the rogue "only" gets his major damage in 8 ways (the ways you mentioned, plus feint and the surprise round, which is different from winning initiative). And the scout "only" skirmishes when they move 10 ft. Your point? My point is that every way the rogue can get sneak attack is situational. They may have 8 different ways of getting sneak attack damage, but they need to be profficient in at least two of those ways, and always have a chance of wasteing a round on a tactic that won't work (most likely risking their neck in the process). Blink gives the attacker a 20% miss chance and (I just remembered) isn't effective against things that can see into the etherial plane (granted that's not many things, but I think a True Seeing spell will do it) On the other hand, a scout only has to fulfill three requirements to get skirmish: he has to be within 30 feet, the target can't be immune to critical hits, and he has to move 10 feet before attacking. That's it, ever. The first two requirements also apply to the Rogue, but the third is the kicker. Replace "Must analyze the situaiton and choose between any of 8 different methods, many of which will be completely inapplicable to the current situation, and may, in fact, result in my certain doom." with "Move ten feet before attacking" it trades half of the sneak attack damage for a complete lack of any danger, tactics, or situational analysis, and that irks me. Feinting still works [against scouts]. And, since the scout only gets one attack, that's not as good as it seems. Blindsight is only at 20th level, and rings of blinking are good for rogues anyways. Feinting doesn't work against a scout, they have uncanny dodge. Feinting is useless against anyone with uncanny dodge. I missed that Scouts only get Uncanny Dodge, not Improved Uncanny Dodge, so the only two ways to get sneak attack damage against a Scout is flanking and a ring of blink. Flanking is incredibly situational (you have to have an ally already engaging the target in melee, and you have to be able to move into flanking position), and blinking requires either multiclassing, or a magic item, a ring of blinking is hardly a class feature. I think that you are severly overestimating the power of skirmish. It's only one attack per round (unless you've got Manyshot or Dual Strike), it requires you to move (not always possible), and it doesn't give as much bonus damage as SA. Not saying you're a fool or that you don't have good points, but skirmish really ain't all that uber. Manyshot doesn't work, Dual strike (CA tempest) or Dervish dance (CW) both work. A common rogue tactic is spring attack into flanking position, attack, move away. Scouts can do this same tactic, only easier, since they get bonus feats and fast movement, and don't have to flank. With a d6 hit die and a fairly low AC (both weaknesses of the Rogue and Scout) any situation in which you can't move is such a bad one that any thoughts of "Oh crap, I can't get my skirmish/sneak attack damage" should be subsumed by "I'm going to die if I don't get my ass out of here right now." Skirmish is hardly uber, but neither is sneak attack. At levels where wizards are able to kill anything with less than 101 hit points, no save allowed, getting 10d6 extra damage in highly situational cases or 5d6 damage if you move 10 feet is hardly "uber". The problem I have with skirmish is that it's an odd mechanic (The act of moving gives scouts bonus damage, so it's some kind of morale thing, but they still can't use it against things immune to critical hits?), and that it's almost impossible to aviod. For the record, I don't like Order of the Bow initiate's ranged precision ability, either. It's like Skirmish in that there's almost nothing that can prevent it, but even worse because the concept (striking at vital points on the body) is exactly the same as sneak attack, so there's no reason a trained rogue shouldn't be able to do something like it. (Okay, now I'm just ranting).
Alchahest 05-11-05, 08:09 PM	People seem to be forgetting that scouts are not primary combatants. 3/4 BAB and d6 HP, not to mention skirmish damage bonus going up every 4 levels, and the lack of heavy armour, or most martial weapons, makes scouts a very feat-dependent class, if you're looking to be the big damage dealer. remember also that skirmish only works within 30 feet, so even if you're using greater manyshot to shoot twice or more in a round, you only get skirmish damage within 30 feet. that's AoO to alot of creatures you'll be fighting when you're high enough level to have more than one attack, AND greater manyshot. also, you're not doing skirmish damage to anything that is normally immune to critical hits. so golems and undead are going to frustrate you and your shortbow. unless you spent a feat on martial prof: longbow, that is. that said, I'm at fifteenth level with a scout right now, and it's a hell of a lot of fun, because I'm not using the guy as a fighter. sure, he can dish out some damage, but not in every situation, and he has to put himself at risk to get that damage in. my two cents, anyways, on why the scout isn't overpowered. just differently-powered.
Fuzzy_Logic 05-11-05, 09:15 PM	Seriously, everyone, not liking a class doesn't make it overpowered. IMHO, NONE of the abovementioned classes are overpowered (with the possible exception of bear warrior, which i haven't looked at builds for. i highly doubt that it's a problem) Warlock: Warlocks get a number of useful abilities. but even if we assume for the sake of the argument that warlocks are more effective attackers than sorcerers, remeber that sorcerers and all other spellcasters get buffs and utility spells, divinations, etc. but without depending on that subtle argument, let me point out that a tenth level warlock can deal 5d6 to one target, and possibly 2d6 to a few others. a 10th level wizard or sorcerer can deal 15d6 damage to an area. Scout: yes, scout is powerful. but being better at some things than rogue does not make them overpowered. in many campaigns i've played in, rogues daringly rush into melee and can set up sneak attacks with relative ease. also, sneak attack works better with a high BAB class like fighter than skirmish does. among the advantages rogue has over socut are disable device, open lock, improved uncanny dodge, high level abilities like improved evasion and opportunist, and TWO TIMES the bonus damage. Warmage: Warmages are sadly limited. they can pull any energy type out of their hat without preparation, but so cna a dedicated blasting sorcerer. however, i'm willing to accept that warmages are the premier blasters; that only makes sense. a warmage can cast exactly the right blow-up spell for the situation. a wizard or sorcerer can use locate object to find the BBEG, then haste the party and fly invisibly over the battlefield, hoping that fireball and magic missile will ge tthem through. Hospitaler overpowered? please. cleric is overpowered. hospitaler is really not much stronger, if any. Radiant Servant: too much healing? hoenstly, healing isn't the most overpowering ability. the party should be able to heal between battles. heal and mass heal make healing easy at high levels anyway, ansd beating the enemies before anyone dies is the main difficulty.
Liquid-Water 05-11-05, 09:42 PM	Ok were do i start... I have been playing warlocks since they first came out. NOT because they were "broken" but because my one friend said they sucked, i wanted to prove him wrong. First-- A warlock is NOT borken, well not all of it. Second-- Feats. There really arn't any feats that work with spell-like abilities Third--Eldritch Damage is CRAP. they should only be using Vitrilic Blasts, which is only good against golems when the Real spell caster forgot to prepare spell that fight a golem. (which you should NEVER count on) Now you may be wondering what is a warlock good at. The answer is ROLE-PLAYING. with the proper pick of invocations you can either lead the party or mess their days up. Every Bard/Rogue should take one level warlock for Beguiling Influnce which gives an awsome +6 to Bluff, Diplomace, and intimidate!!! So if you like role-playing and a wizards isn't your cup of tea try a warlock they are fun.
Liquid-Water 05-11-05, 09:47 PM	PS. You should mix warlock up with stuff. a straight warlock isn't all that good mix it with rogue or bard... also role-playing char. A couple of warlock side noted... Deceive Item lets you take a 10 on use item checks, great for rogues and bards!!!! Imbue Item lets you make item that use both arcane and divine spells!!! You can make ANY item!!! Flee The Scene is a very powerful invocation, D-door at will leaving behing a Major Image. Now tell me that isn't good for role-playing.
RadicalTaoist 05-11-05, 10:33 PM	Warshaper: A 5 level class that grants +4 str and Con while wildshaped/shapechanged/whatever (and why wouldn't you be if you had this), immunity to crits, flanks, etc., reach, and some other great abilities. CW Tempest: Reduction of dual-wield penalties, feats applying to both weapons, two-wep spring attack. CA Again, I notice melee characters are branded as overpowered when they actually get ANY effective power. And just wanted to mention the Sublime Chord is not overpowered. C'mon. Less spells known than a Sorceror and less spells/day than a wizard, and you can't enter before level 10?
Always-Late 05-12-05, 12:48 AM	But of course, just about every insane build contains sublimb chord somewhere.
Todd 05-12-05, 08:13 AM	But of course, just about every insane build contains sublimb chord somewhere. It's worth noting that most of those builds flat out stink in the low to mid levels and that the ones that are really powerful by level 20 usually take only one or two levels of the PrC and then use something like Eldritch Knight to bump it up after that. The simple solution is to limit PrC dipping or to not let PrCs advance the spellcasting of base classes only, not other PrCs. By itself Sublime Chord is not overpowered at all.
q'afuu 05-12-05, 08:44 AM	Feinting doesn't work against a scout, they have uncanny dodge. Feinting is useless against anyone with uncanny dodge.UD doesn't protect you in any way from being feinted. It allows you to keep your Dex to AC when flatfooted or when attacked by an invisible opponent. That's it.
Zsasz_Diedne 05-12-05, 09:40 AM	Yep, max that Sense Motive baby. As for the sublime chord, as was mentioned previously, those builds are great if your game is starting around 15th level or so, but playing them from the starting gate is another matter altogether, pray that your party is willing to carry you every adventure til then. As I and many others have said, very few classes are by themselves busted, it's in combinations things can get scary.
John Q. Mayhem 05-12-05, 12:45 PM	UD doesn't protect you in any way from being feinted. It allows you to keep your Dex to AC when flatfooted or when attacked by an invisible opponent. That's it. Feinting in Combat You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers. If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn. Uncanny Dodge (Ex) At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. Wow, you're right! I'd thought that feinting made the opponent flat-footed. My memory's going...
Gurthoron 05-12-05, 12:56 PM	>Quote: >I have a lvl 32 Rogue (not the one mentioned in sig) which has been dishing >out around 400 damage per round, twice as much as the Barbarian/Frenzied >Berserker. Rogues slaughter. >How is your rogue getting SAs on anything at epic? With a +80 or so modifier to hide, its pretty easy. >Quote: >Warshaper: A 5 level class that grants +4 str and Con while >wildshaped/shapechanged/whatever (and why wouldn't you be if you had >this), immunity to crits, flanks, etc., reach, and some other great abilities. >CW >Tempest: Reduction of dual-wield penalties, feats applying to both >weapons, two-wep spring attack. CA >Again, I notice melee characters are branded as overpowered when they >actually get ANY effective power. The only reason I mentioned mostly melee types is because I don't know spellcasters.
aelryinth 05-12-05, 01:22 PM	Guth, he's wondering why your enemies aren't wearing fortified armor or immune to crits. Not on how you can get into combat. At level 32, every humanoid foe you face should be able to afford +5 heavy fort armor, and then you aren't doing any SA at all. And if they don't have it, they should be looking immune to crits. Note that you can even put Fortification on Bracers of Mage Armor, now. Bracers +1 of Heavy Fortification, anyone? ==Aelryinth
Zsasz_Diedne 05-12-05, 01:23 PM	The only reason I mentioned mostly melee types is because I don't know spellcasters. Well you should get to know them, and the quote tags too ;) Let's start with the Ur-Priest(or Ur-Punk as I like to call it), 10 level PrC that grants 9th level spells, meaning by 14th level you can be the equivalent of a 17th level caster, and with the right feats you don't even have to have been a caster to before entering the class. But go ahead and enter as an arcane caster and round off with Mystic Theurge for 9th level Arcane and Divine spells, or stick the class out for it's nifty Steal SLA ability. Dweomerkeeper (AKA Dweomercheater, Cheater of Mystra): Until a recent rules clarification was thought to be running around casting Limited Wish and Wish with no XP cost. Can still utilize other potent magics as SLA's without needing components. Incantatrix: Full spellcasting progression, doesn't miss out on bonus feats for abandoning wizard (or gains them as a sorc), can apply metamagic feats to spell trigger items or the spells of other caster, can reduce the level boost of metamagic feats by one, and gets the equivalent of an epic caster feat, pre epic. Mix with the Halruaan Elder for Adroit Casting (lower metamagic levels by up to 4, minimum spell's original level+1) for some real fun. I could keep going but I think you see what I am getting at. See also: The Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil The True Necromancer The Fatespinner The Master Transmogrifist to name a few. As for your Rogue, getting SA's off at Epic is not the question, the question is how are you getting around the plethora of critters (amongst other things) immune to crits and SA's? I am aware of methods, just curious as to what yours is:)
RadicalTaoist 05-12-05, 02:30 PM	But of course, just about every insane build contains sublimb chord somewhere. On the contrary, you can usually get better effects out of straight casters. Take the most 'insane' build I can think of not using Green Whisperer or Ur-Priest: Bard7/Rogue2/Druid1/Sublime Chord2/Fochlucan Lyrist8. Consistently weaker at any level than an equivalent Druid or Cleric. All the full casters, meaning Psions, Wizards, Sorcerors, Wilders, and Artificers included, have significantly stronger casting at any level. This guy will, for his whole career, be playing catchup to the straight Bard as far as party support is concerned. And in melee, this is a Rogue with 1d6 sneak attack and druidic weapon restrictions (FL only loosens the armor restrictions). Insane indeed.
~Black Knight~ 05-12-05, 03:39 PM	Just wondering, what's dual strike?
Sith_Phelan 05-12-05, 04:09 PM	IMHO, everything can become broken, if enough effort is applied to it. I am playing a warlock (6th level) and hell yeah I am dealing out more damage than the fighter...in one attack, he is getting 4 now (improved 2 weapon) and hitsmany things at least twice thus evens it out somewhat. If the warlock was allowed ALL, the invocations it would be broken. However the limited number allowed fixes that. It was said that Warlock are great at role-playing and I have to agree...having diplomacy over 20 at 6th level is way cool...but it cost me a invocation/feat and loads of skill points (Skill of 9 points, charisma bonus, skill focus and beguilng influence) as said powerful but limited the chracter in other ways... Nothing is broken if played properly...heck a 1st level gobbersnot could be powerful with the corect feats... :P
aelryinth 05-12-05, 09:25 PM	dual strike allows you to use both weapons as a Standard action, a Two Weapon Fighter feat. There's another, similar feat which lets you use two weapons when making AoO. ==Aelryinth
Ancient Wyrm 05-12-05, 09:46 PM	And in melee, this is a Rogue with 1d6 sneak attack and druidic weapon restrictions (FL only loosens the armor restrictions). Druids don't have weapon restrictions in 3.5. The problem I have with skirmish is that it's an odd mechanic (The act of moving gives scouts bonus damage, so it's some kind of morale thing, but they still can't use it against things immune to critical hits?), and that it's almost impossible to aviod. Morale thing? Hunh? What ever gave you that idea? The scout moves quick enough to place her attacks in an opponent's momentarily-exposed weak spots. Makes as much sense to me as a rogue skewering someone because his buddy's on the other side. For the record, I don't like Order of the Bow initiate's ranged precision ability, either. It's like Skirmish in that there's almost nothing that can prevent it, but even worse because the concept (striking at vital points on the body) is exactly the same as sneak attack, so there's no reason a trained rogue shouldn't be able to do something like it. (Okay, now I'm just ranting). Trained rogue? You know, they have a name for that... what was it again? Oh, yes: Order of the Bow Initiate. PS: Scouts have a d8 hit die.
Liquid-Water 05-13-05, 04:18 AM	It was said that Warlock are great at role-playing and I have to agree...having diplomacy over 20 at 6th level is way cool...but it cost me a invocation/feat and loads of skill points (Skill of 9 points, charisma bonus, skill focus and beguilng influence) as said powerful but limited the chracter in other ways... Lol you really need to see the glory of a warlock a 6th level let me brake it down for you :D Diplomacy equals 18 in charisma--+4 beguiling influence-- +6 Skill focus diplomacy-- +3 negotiator-- +2 Ranks --+9 5 ranks in bluff --+2 5 ranks sense motive--+2 Total -- 28 plus 1d20 roll at 6th level with no items sorry i love power gaming skills!! ;)
Jimmeh42 05-13-05, 10:30 AM	the warlock seems insane to me you all keep complaining about the skirmish and sneak attack abilitys, why can a full spell caster deal out the same damage as a rogue sneak attack at twice the range? or 250ft if you like, and with hideous blow you can attack as well, the target need not be flat footed and can be immune to criticals, and dont say but only once per round the rogue has the same BaB and saves, nither can even make two attacks till 8th level, on top of that by 16th level you can polymorph everybody into the ground, sure they get a save but all you need is a few items and nothing lasts i like the class myself, but i think its servearly broken, and can be very easily abused ps. the warlock can also use spiderslimb at first level for example, this beats the sorcerer by 3 levels and the wizard by 2, then add in the fact that he can make any item, activate any item, gets automatic damage reduction and energy risistance, which both other classes need to give something up to do, not that they can make any item or use any item at all, no matter what they do without multiclassing
Ancient Wyrm 05-13-05, 12:29 PM	the warlock seems insane to me you all keep complaining about the skirmish and sneak attack abilitys, why can a full spell caster deal out the same damage as a rogue sneak attack at twice the range? or 250ft if you like, and with hideous blow you can attack as well, the target need not be flat footed and can be immune to criticals, and dont say but only once per round the rogue has the same BaB and saves, nither can even make two attacks till 8th level, on top of that by 16th level you can polymorph everybody into the ground, sure they get a save but all you need is a few items and nothing lasts i like the class myself, but i think its servearly broken, and can be very easily abused Actually a bit less damage, and short some weapon damage (don't underestimate the importance of the actual weapon damage). A warlock can also only do this once per round, ever (well, there's Quicken SLA...), while a rogue can dual-wield from the get-go. A warlock with hideous blow is unlikely to be finessing, so his attack roll's correspondingly lower. ps. the warlock can also use spiderslimb at first level for example, this beats the sorcerer by 3 levels and the wizard by 2, then add in the fact that he can make any item, activate any item, gets automatic damage reduction and energy risistance, which both other classes need to give something up to do, not that they can make any item or use any item at all, no matter what they do without multiclassing Yes, the warlock gets it sooner, but that's also all he gets. At Wiz3 and Sor4, they get a whole new spell level, not just spider climb. Beyond 10th level or so, a rogue or bard can use items just as easily as a warlock. Automatic DR? A barbarian's is unbypassable. Automatic fast healing? A paladin's lay on hands beats this hands down, not to mention a cleric's healing spells.
Liquid-Water 05-13-05, 02:12 PM	ps. the warlock can also use spiderslimb at first level for example, this beats the sorcerer by 3 levels and the wizard by 2, then add in the fact that he can make any item, activate any item, gets automatic damage reduction and energy risistance, which both other classes need to give something up to do, not that they can make any item or use any item at all, no matter what they do without multiclassing i need to agree they wyrm on this one. look at a 20th level wizard and their spells and compare them to the warlocks best eldritch blast... a wizard is using a twined disintergrate 80d6 points of danage and a warlock is using around 15d6 that is not even.
Votan 05-13-05, 02:21 PM	i need to agree they wyrm on this one. look at a 20th level wizard and their spells and compare them to the warlocks best eldritch blast... a wizard is using a twined disintergrate 80d6 points of danage and a warlock is using around 15d6 that is not even. Of course the warlock will be enhancing that eldritch blast . . . I think the warlock CAN be the most broken of the 27 core classes in the PHB, Complete Series and XPH. That is because you can push on one lever very hard and then do it all darn day. That is really amazing. On the other hand, without a monomanical focus on optimization, the warlock can be so weak as to be embarrassing. Only the Wilder of the 27 classes is more dependent on feat choice for effectiveness. The wilder is the only close comparison for how amazingly cautious you have to be with invocation choice. But if you go with focus, the class can be pushed into some very effective territory to the point where it can potentially dominate through specific tactics. But that is a learning curve issue. It's the first of it's type and I am sure that the designers did not see every possible angle to break the class. Everyone else (even psionic characters) had previous attempts to work from so they were easier to balance.
Zsasz_Diedne 05-13-05, 02:28 PM	On the contrary, you can usually get better effects out of straight casters. Take the most 'insane' build I can think of not using Green Whisperer or Ur-Priest: Bard7/Rogue2/Druid1/Sublime Chord2/Fochlucan Lyrist8. Consistently weaker at any level than an equivalent Druid or Cleric. All the full casters, meaning Psions, Wizards, Sorcerors, Wilders, and Artificers included, have significantly stronger casting at any level. This guy will, for his whole career, be playing catchup to the straight Bard as far as party support is concerned. And in melee, this is a Rogue with 1d6 sneak attack and druidic weapon restrictions (FL only loosens the armor restrictions). Insane indeed. Your not thinking hard enough: Sublime Knight - Bard 9 / Dragonslayer 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / Eldritch Knight 8 Sublime Shadowlord - Shadow-Walker 1 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3 / T. Shadowlord 5 / Sublime Chord 2 / Eldritch Knight 5 (*6 if LA bought off) Sublime Bladesinger - Bard 4 / Half-Elf Paragon 3 / Bladesinger 3 / Sublime Chord 2 / Eldritch Knight 8 Sublime Harper - Ranger 2 / Bard 3 / Harper Agent 5 / Sublime Chord 2 / Harper Paragon 8 Sublime Theurge - Bard 7 / Cleric 3 / Sublime Chord 2 / Mystic Theurge 8 Sublime Ur-Theurge - Bard 7 / Mindbender 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Mystic Theurge 8 Which, to name a few, is the insanity I believe he was referring to. As for the Warlock, again, it's cool but without multiclassing/PrC'ing not so scary, and there are plenty of uber-diplomat builds to be found, so not even that makes it unique, Deceive Item was swiped from the Artificer, which wasn't such a bad idea considering. Yes EB damage is piddly by itself, now imagine combining this class with Rogue, then Daggerspell Mage, take the Supernatural Transformation feat for kicks and let those d6's fly.
Sith_Phelan 05-13-05, 05:41 PM	Look I do not think that the class could not be abused, or broken by powergaiming, however on this site it shows how a 1st level wizad can get an ac of well over 25 and potentialy 31...at first level...everything CAN be broken, however it will clearly leave big gaps elsewhere...it would be up to the player and DM to work through a potential flaw...heck even an orc barbarian in rage and enlarged can be considered broken...
Votan 05-13-05, 06:23 PM	Look I do not think that the class could not be abused, or broken by powergaiming, however on this site it shows how a 1st level wizad can get an ac of well over 25 and potentialy 31...at first level...everything CAN be broken, however it will clearly leave big gaps elsewhere...it would be up to the player and DM to work through a potential flaw...heck even an orc barbarian in rage and enlarged can be considered broken... The major issue with the Warlock is that, if you set up one of the killer combinations, you can do the abusive thing all day. A first level wizard focusing on AC tends to be able to do this for a single encounter for which he is prepared. The enlarged, raging barbarian also has this flaw. The ability to do something continuously really does make a difference. That being said, you are right that you can push on the levers for any class and make it pretty amazing.
RadicalTaoist 05-13-05, 07:17 PM	LOL, the druid doesn't have weapon restrictions in 3.5! Silly me. Well, at least that opens up archery for one form of combat our Sublime Gishes can try. Your not thinking hard enough:Well then, let's run through 'em. Sublime Knight - Bard 9 / Dragonslayer 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / Eldritch Knight 8Hope this guy's an archer, because just like the build I mentioned he's got pretty much bard HP - and weaker spellcasting too. (only 9 levels into SC) Sublime Shadowlord - Shadow-Walker 1 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3 / T. Shadowlord 5 / Sublime Chord 2 / Eldritch Knight 5 (*6 if LA bought off) Nice skills and a flexible build, but with only 6 levels of SC spellcasting, why not go straight through Bard with EK instead? Your UMD is stronger than what you can cast through SC in this build. Sublime Bladesinger - Bard 4 / Half-Elf Paragon 3 / Bladesinger 3 / Sublime Chord 2 / Eldritch Knight 8 MAD, poor HP again, I hope this guy doesn't think he's going into melee. Takes a while to get started too. I like the entry into Bladesinger very much though, good thinking. Sublime Harper - Ranger 2 / Bard 3 / Harper Agent 5 / Sublime Chord 2 / Harper Paragon 8 This guy I like. But overpowered? Not even close. Sublime Theurge - Bard 7 / Cleric 3 / Sublime Chord 2 / Mystic Theurge 8Not any more powerful than the build mentioned, although Divine Power will be useful. Terrible HP. Sublime Ur-Theurge - Bard 7 / Mindbender 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Mystic Theurge 8Sorc10/UP2/MT8 has stronger spellcasting by far, and that's just thrown together. You've got the advantage in class skills, but with 8 levels of MT you'll need insane Int (and likely the Able Learner feat too) to take advantage of it. Which, to name a few, is the insanity I believe he was referring to. And as a CO regular I'm saying they're okay, but not that insane. In fact they're pretty sane builds. Sublime Chord offers flexibility in allowing a bard to sacrifice some bardic music halfway through his career in order to become a second-rate sorceror. But it's just not that uber. At all. Really.
Votan 05-13-05, 09:27 PM	And as a CO regular I'm saying they're okay, but not that insane. In fact they're pretty sane builds. Sublime Chord offers flexibility in allowing a bard to sacrifice some bardic music halfway through his career in order to become a second-rate sorceror. But it's just not that uber. At all. Really. For a while I wanted to do a thread on how a Sorcerer 20 was uniformly inferior to a Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10. The basic arguement was that there are very few full casting prestige classes for sorcerers in the Complete Series plus Core (Archmage, Wildmage, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Alienist, Mage of the Arcane Order, Sacred Exorcist, Divine Oracle -- and all require massive investment in skills, awkward feats and/or tough spell selection). So a sorcerer 20 is still a common endpoint. A Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 appears to be better than a Sorcerer at level 20 (knows more high level spells overall, casts enough to be comeptitive plus music, skills, better hit points, light armor and BAB). It kinda fell apart when I realzied while I could make this argument at level 20, a Bard -> Sublime Chord build plays way different for 80% of the character levels. At levels 1-10 the character is certainly not a primary caster. At level 1 the sorcerer is way ahead in overall spell power. Throw in the (useless) required skills and the SC just doesn't trump the sorcerer the way I expected. If the Sorcerer makes a prestige class work then it isn't even close (wildmage with practiced caster and a couple levels of archmage ends up way stronger). So I agree with you -- strong in theory, weak in practice.
Zsasz_Diedne 05-13-05, 10:33 PM	I also agree, I suppose I should have put "Insane" in quotes. Just putting some clarification on his comment. The Ur-Priest still trumps the chord in every way IMO. And as a CO regular I would have thought you'd recognize those builds from the Sublime Chord compilation:)
feartheinvinceblehamster 05-13-05, 10:40 PM	Oh, so the warlock is balanced? i agree except for the little "incident" involving a 5th level warlock, a death slaad, and 30 summoned rat swarms :twitch:
RadicalTaoist 05-13-05, 10:43 PM	And as a CO regular I would have thought you'd recognize those builds from the Sublime Chord compilation:) A very nice thread I might add. Have you considered any Sublime Exorcists? Sacred Exorcist is a great PrC for SC casting. Certainly beats the hell out of Eldritch Knight in every department but BAB.
Ancient Wyrm 05-14-05, 03:07 AM	Oh, so the warlock is balanced? i agree except for the little "incident" involving a 5th level warlock, a death slaad, and 30 summoned rat swarms :twitch: One: What kind of idiot death slaad is going to stand there and let a warlock cast invocations for three minutes? Two: What kind of idiot warlock is going to waste three minutes of his life summoning swarms, each one of which disappears as fast as the next one comes into existence because the invocation has a duration of concentration?
Kurama Youko 05-14-05, 06:25 AM	I havent seen any broken classes at all. It's just my opinion though but all the classes that have been released have been pretty fair. I dont really agree with the Warlock overpowered crowd. I would like it if people could show more proof as to how its broken? Maybe in your game world where magic is rare and very low powered it might seem that way, once a warlock gets to 14th lv and can use some of the more interesting invoccations while your other casters are searching the globe for spell components to cast a simple fireball but no i dont see it being broken. Actually I see it being extremly limited. Just about every warlock will have more than 50% of the same invocations. Feat selection seems to be generic from build to build. Heck I said to hell with PBS and PS feats, if an idiot is stupid enough to stand between a Warlock and his intended target then he is the one who should be worried about getting blasted. :) (This is part of the chaotic spectrum.) and the Warlock doesnt have to target someone who is already in melee, if there is another free enemy they can go after them. And whats the point of Medium BAB with D6 hit dice? EB is only one shot per round, and quicken spell like ability uses the previous BAB if i remember correctly so again whats the point of medium BAB? any Warlock running into melee with d6 hit dice deserves a good reminder about how fragile they are. They have minor energy resistance, laughable Fast healing. To be honest they shouldnt be getting hit in the place. They should be ducking and hiding 120ft away and plucking people with eldritch lance. Warmage isnt broken, its a pure blaster class, the only spells they can learn are attack spells. No mage armor, no shield, no haste, no invisibility, no mirror image, no teleport, no dispel magic, no plane shift, no nothing that doesnt do damage directly. Um, i dont know other peoples ideas about wizards but im generally under the assumption that they are meant to assist in the minor of arcane spells to solve a problem in a given situation, like knocking a locked door that the rogue can't seem to open or teleporting the party off the volcano that is about to erupt and occasionally throwing a fireball onto a enemy so as to soft'em up for the fighters. Now if you play wizards as nukers then yeah the warmage looks like a good sent compared to you, but then again so does a good sorcerer build. I admit, I have seen some Prestige Classes that made me do a double take, (Frenized Berserker, 3.0 Forsaker, 3.0 Shifter, Soul Eater, Celestial Mystic.) But its only when in combination with other classes and certain feat selection that make them so. If a class like Warlock seems broken to you, then you as a DM arent doing your job right.
Zsasz_Diedne 05-14-05, 08:01 AM	A very nice thread I might add. Have you considered any Sublime Exorcists? Sacred Exorcist is a great PrC for SC casting. Certainly beats the hell out of Eldritch Knight in every department but BAB. Yeah, as time goes on the EK has less and less appeal to me, but I prefer my exorcists as clerics, purely an RP things (which many CO builds tend to trample on, but that's another thread altogether).
Votan 05-14-05, 10:46 AM	I dont really agree with the Warlock overpowered crowd. I would like it if people could show more proof as to how its broken? Maybe in your game world where magic is rare and very low powered it might seem that way, once a warlock gets to 14th lv and can use some of the more interesting invoccations while your other casters are searching the globe for spell components to cast a simple fireball but no i dont see it being broken. It's usually by using tactics that are extremely difficult to counter. Invisible, flying warlocks with Devil's sight inside a globe of darkness are very tough for most encounters. An optimized encounter can trash the warlock but a standard array of encounters will have a very hard time delaign with this tactic. The main problem is retreating, delaying or shifting the terms of the encounter is a lot harder because the Warlock can keep it up all day so, in the end, the enemy has to actually flee or deal with this significant tactical disadvantage. On the other hand, spell turning looks like a death sentance to a warlock but how many creatures have it?
Kurama Youko 05-14-05, 03:16 PM	okay, i can some what understand the grievance (sp?) with that. But most creatures have abilities to negate or work around that. Blindsight for example. A creature with spell immunity (mostly every golem.) would be immune to everything a Warlock does. Except for the physical invocations like stony grasp (barring that would even hold golem.) SR is always a great way to put the hold on a magic spewing character. When in doubt throw a bunch of nets. :) If the enemies are on one side of the field and the pc's the otherside then yeah it really isnt all that hard for Pc's to get by an ecounter, cause they know where to direct there attention. However when the PC's are surrounded and being attacked from distance, it becomes an entirely different game. :) I do however agree if you let a spellcaster not just a warlock, throw on those many different kinds of effects is hard to contend with, but so is any other caster. a Cleric with Rightous Might, Divine Power, Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Vigor, Spell Resistance, Aid and Bless is a pretty fearful thing to behold on the battlefield. As is a Mirror Image, Mage Armor, Shield, Fly, with a few maximized magic missiles, or empowered ones. could easily flail most creatures.
Liquid-Water 05-14-05, 07:02 PM	A creature with spell immunity (mostly every golem.) would be immune to everything a Warlock does. Except for the physical invocations like stony grasp (barring that would even hold golem.) SR is always a great way to put the hold on a magic spewing character. that is a trap that most DMs fall into... look up spell immunity for a min and you will see that they are immune to spell that allow spell resistance!!!! not ALL spells. a warlock at level 11 has a nice ability called vitrolic blast that... :eek: ALLOWS NO SR OR SAVE :eek: yea a warlock RAPES :embarrass: a golem sorry and spell turning a warlock don't make me laugh... look up spell turning and look up rays. Spell turning does NOT turn rays back!!!! "The abjusration turns only spells that have you as a target. Effect and area spells are not affected. Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells" PHB "Ray:A beam created by a spell. THe caster must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit with a ray." PHB Have fun using spell turning and ill have fun blasting your spell casting self to kingdom come...
Particle_Man 05-14-05, 07:47 PM	It's usually by using tactics that are extremely difficult to counter. Invisible, flying warlocks with Devil's sight inside a globe of darkness are very tough for most encounters. Remember that 3.5 darkness isn't that dark. It's more like "television" darkness, where you can still see the actors, even though it is "supposed" to be dark. Also, the low level invisibility goes away whenever the warlock uses Eldritch Blast. The high level invisibility is not gained until the warlock is so high level that his opponents will be able to deal with invisibility.
Ancient Wyrm 05-14-05, 10:04 PM	and spell turning a warlock don't make me laugh... look up spell turning and look up rays. Spell turning does NOT turn rays back!!!! "The abjusration turns only spells that have you as a target. Effect and area spells are not affected. Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells" PHB "Ray:A beam created by a spell. THe caster must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit with a ray." PHB Have fun using spell turning and ill have fun blasting your spell casting self to kingdom come... While you're correct about the net effect of spell turning on a warlock, I'd just like to point out, because I'm that kind of person, that eldritch blast is not an actual ray, just a ranged touch attack.
Jimmeh42 05-14-05, 10:47 PM	i still have trouble with the idea that the eldritch blast deals almost the same damage as the rogue sneak attack but can be used when ever you want out to 60ft(or 250ft), yes the rogue CAN do more sneak attack per turn, but sneak attacks just cant be used every encounter but Eblast pretty much can until later levels when you can use vitriolic blast which pretty much works against anybody but celestials, which generaly your not trying to kill. and then look at what happens if you cross the 2, and rogue8/warlock2 is vastly superior to a rogue10. gaining a free ranged attack, detect magic at will, and 2 other invocations, spider climb for example(3 levels before sorcerer and 2 before wizard i might add), i'm not sure why anybody would want to go pure rogue, Bab is pretty much not affected. i'm starting to wonder how broken much more you could make a warlock...but then do i really want to know...i sure didnt want to know about the hulking hurler
Liquid-Water 05-15-05, 03:20 PM	While you're correct about the net effect of spell turning on a warlock, I'd just like to point out, because I'm that kind of person, that eldritch blast is not an actual ray, just a ranged touch attack. "An eldritch blast is a RAY with a range of 60 feet" Complete Arcane. Please look it up, i only point this out because i'm that kind of person :eek:
Kurama Youko 05-15-05, 03:30 PM	that is a trap that most DMs fall into... look up spell immunity for a min and you will see that they are immune to spell that allow spell resistance!!!! not ALL spells. a warlock at level 11 has a nice ability called vitrolic blast that... :eek: ALLOWS NO SR OR SAVE :eek: yea a warlock RAPES :embarrass: a golem sorry and spell turning a warlock don't make me laugh... look up spell turning and look up rays. Spell turning does NOT turn rays back!!!! "The abjusration turns only spells that have you as a target. Effect and area spells are not affected. Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells" PHB "Ray:A beam created by a spell. THe caster must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit with a ray." PHB Have fun using spell turning and ill have fun blasting your spell casting self to kingdom come... 1.) Well first off, I didnt mean Spell Immunity as per the spell I meant "Magic Immunity" as per the effect of Golems. Did you not see where I said every golem? Magic Immunity renders Golems immune to the Warlocks Eldritch Blast and his augmenting other invocations for it, (Thats all of them, including Viritolic Blast). It doesnt matter if the spell allows for SR or not. A Golem can only be affected by certain magic spells which the Warlock without the benefit of a scroll,wand,staff or wand just cant do. 2.) I never said anything about Spell Turning, I said SR,... SR means Spell Resistance.
AbsentMindedProfessor 05-15-05, 03:35 PM	You might want to re-check the rules on Golems and what Magic Immunity means. It means it has unbeatable SR. If the spell or effect is not subject to SR, it works vs. the golem. Archmage Arcane Fire works too, I think.
Kurama Youko 05-15-05, 03:47 PM	Answer me this, why do they mention Spells-like and Supernatural affects if they meant only things that checked against SR dont work on Golems?
Particle_Man 05-15-05, 03:51 PM	i still have trouble with the idea that the eldritch blast deals almost the same damage as the rogue sneak attack but can be used when ever you want out to 60ft(or 250ft), yes the rogue CAN do more sneak attack per turn, but sneak attacks just cant be used every encounter but Eblast pretty much can until later levels when you can use vitriolic blast which pretty much works against anybody but celestials, which generaly your not trying to kill. What about black dragons? What about creatures with acid resistance, either naturally or through magic items or spells? Heck, a rogue with the TWF tree will OWN the warlock. The Warlock in a grapple is screwed! I think that the Warlock is certainly not overpowered.
Kurama Youko 05-15-05, 03:57 PM	Okay i see where i made myself. Yeah each individual golem has a more specific verison of immunity to magic under their description. Yes, particle man I agree. There is always someone out there that can kick your characters butt. The trick is trying to avoid them until you have something else to back you up. A psion could kill a Warlock in a toe to toe blast fest. Wouldnt even have to try to hard, by the time the Warlock gets to the level he can get Victrolic Blast a Psion could have Energy Conversion up and ready or Attack with a 14d6 crystal shard or Sonic Energy Ray or whatever. Maybe create a Astral Construct to plan old rip his head off. theres always something a Warlock is no more over powered than a well made arcane spellcaster of equal caster level.
Teltharis 05-15-05, 06:00 PM	Now, the warmage by itself is not "b0rk3n", but it is very powerful with the feat arcane preparation and the PrC Mage of the Arcane Order. The reason is that the spellpool ability of the class grants sorceror/wizard spells. That makes warmages very good, better than sorceror IMHO. I'm playing one right now, and its one of the best caster variants I've played. Not the raw power of an incantrix or initiate of the sevenfold veil, but nice nonetheless(sp?)