Building a Class Building Engine [Archive] - Wizards Community

Building a Class Building Engine [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Haldrik
01-14-04, 06:19 AM The DMGuide needs a Class Building Engine that lets people design new Player Character Classes, or modify old ones.

ALL SPECIAL ABILITIES (from Rage to Quivering Palm) are Feats. A player purchases each Feat using a point system based on Experience Points.

For example, the currently flexible Fighter Class needs to be MORE FLEXIBLE. By selecting appropriate Feats, the Fighter's abilities can become those of the Paladin's or of the Ranger's.

The Fighter's abilities can even become those of the Barbarian by purchasing more Hitpoints Feats, or even of the Monk by sacrificing Hitpoints to get other Feats!

At first level, the Fighter Class chooses which Saving Throw (Fort, Refl, or Will) is the "Good" one. Thus Dex Fighters (Swashbucklers) may prefer a Good Refl save, while standard Con Fighters may prefer a Good Fort save. A spell casting Fighter may want a Good Will save. Those with more than one "Good" save like the Monk spend more Feat points.

To some degree the Barbarian, the Ranger, and the Monk are all Dex Fighters but are too specialized to function as a Swashbuckler. Ideally, the Fighter can become anything depending on the selection of Feats.

Moreover, the official list of Core Classes sorely lacks both a Swashbuckler and an Arcane Warrior. (The Bard is arcane but not a warrior). The Class Building Machine can generate these with ease. Conversely, some classes may be too specialized to be a Core Class, such as the Monk. (Or even the Ranger because druidry is not obviously relevant to Favored Enemy. Also some people find Favored Enemy morally objectionable bigotry). The Class Building Machine can relax these overly tight Classes to suit the tastes of more people.

Even spell casting can organize into Feats! 1 spell slot/day = 1 Spell Feat. The prerequisites would be something like .. one must have at least one spell slot of the preceding spell level, and cannot have more spell slots in the spell level than the number of spell slots in the preceding spell level. .. Also higher level spells may cost more Feat Points. For example, spell levels 1-3 cost 1 Feat, spell levels 4-6 cost 2 Feats, and spell levels 7-9 cost 3 Feats? .. In any case, Spell Feats.

To some degree even a Wizard and a Sorcerer is just a Fighter who sacrifices Hitpoint Feats and Combat Feats to accumulate Spell Feats.

Not a few Sorcerers and Wizards complaign they do NOT WANT a familiar, making the Class Special Ability a waste. By translating Summon Familiar into a General Feat, the Class Building Machine can easily swap it out for an other Feat that the DM finds more conducive.

Finally tinkering with Classes becomes easy, by altering individual Feats with surgical precision without having to overhaul an entire Class. The dialectical forces of Omni-Classing vs Min/Maxing tends to make most classes balanced and functional.

The Class Building Machine is a lot like playing Magic: The Gathering. Each Feat is a separate card, and a Player Character Class is a personally built deck.

WotC "knights" certain personal decks into official DnD Classes, when they are robust, appeal to a larger audience, and concretize vivid archetypes that are good for role play.
Dunelord
01-14-04, 06:46 AM I am sure for a point buy it's alright but I just don't see a point to playing D and D if your not going to use levels. I like new classes but going to point buy would just kind of kill the flavor for me. Although the idea of more guidunce on how to build a new class is something I can agree with.
Shoes
01-14-04, 08:01 AM I did something similiar, but it was with races based off the AD&D Skills & Powers book. I always love when creating a character to be more "open" and "flexiable" so I can have different options to my liking. I had every intention to do a classes version of the Skills and Powers, but I guess you beat me to it, just in a different way.
Hogre
01-14-04, 09:18 AM There is one reason that this doesn't work.

Synergy.

Some abilities independently are worthless, but when combined together can form something truley over-powered.
Haldrik
01-14-04, 02:54 PM Shoes:
I always love creating a character to be more "open" and "flexiable" so I can have different options to my liking. I had every intention to do a classes version of the Skills and Powers, but I guess you beat me to it, just in a different way.
Add your thoughts here. There's lots to do to make this work.

Dunelord:
I am sure for a point buy it's alright but I just don't see a point to playing D and D if your not going to use levels. I like new classes but going to point buy would just kind of kill the flavor for me. Although the idea of more guidunce on how to build a new class is something I can agree with.
I like levels too, and I want to keep them. They're a good way to measure one Class against an other Class when their abilities have nothing in common. The levels are the measuring cup, while the Feats are what fills up inside them. It's not really different from the way the classes are now. The Class Building Machine just helps give people a sense of how one Class compares with an other.

Hogre:
There is one reason that this doesn't work. Synergy.
This is not the first point based system, and it won't be the last. It's hardly impossible. For example, the card game, Magic: The Gathering, is nothing but synergy. A Class Building Machine can and will work.

Also, a Class Building Machine helps make Classes "healthier". For example, some classes are more "front end" where all the powers appear at the beginning in the low levels, but then becomes boringly underpowered in the long run. Or some classes are more "back end", like the Wizard IMO. The low levels are pathetically weak but the high levels are disruptively overpowered. A Class Building Machine ranks the abilities of a Class to help smooth them out across the levels, so that every single level is balanced and a joy to play.
Haldrik
01-14-04, 03:32 PM I reorganized the official Feat List, just for the sake of my own sanity.

Feats:

[COMBAT] [ATTACK OF OPPORTUNITY] [#ATTACKS] Combat Reflexes
[COMBAT] [ATTACK OF OPPORTUNITY] [DODGE] Mobility
[COMBAT] [DODGE] Combat Expertise
[COMBAT] [DODGE] Dodge
[COMBAT] [MELEE] Blind-Fight
[COMBAT] [MELEE] Shield Bash
[COMBAT] [MELEE] [#ATTACKS] Cleave
[COMBAT] [MELEE] [#ATTACKS] Great Cleave
[COMBAT] [MELEE] [#ATTACKS] Whirlwind Attack
[COMBAT] [MELEE] [ACTION] Improved Bull Rush
[COMBAT] [MELEE] [ACTION] Improved Disarm
[COMBAT] [MELEE] [ACTION] Improved Feint
[COMBAT] [MELEE] [ACTION] Improved Overrun
[COMBAT] [MELEE] [ACTION] Improved Sunder
[COMBAT] [MELEE] [ACTION] Improved Trip
[COMBAT] [MELEE] [AMBIDEX] [#ATTACKS] Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
[COMBAT] [MELEE] [AMBIDEX] [#ATTACKS] Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
[COMBAT] [MELEE] [AMBIDEX] [#ATTACKS] Two-Weapon Fighting
[COMBAT] [MELEE] [AMBIDEX] [DODGE] Two-Weapon Defense
[COMBAT] [MELEE] [ATTACK] Weapon Finesse
[COMBAT] [MELEE] [DAMAGE] Power Attack
[COMBAT] [MELEE] [MOVE] Spring Attack
[COMBAT] [MOUNT] [RANGE] Mounted Archery
[COMBAT] [MOUNT] [MELEE] Mounted Combat
[COMBAT] [MOUNT] [MOVE] Ride-By Attack
[COMBAT] [MOUNT] [DAMAGE] Spirited Charge
[COMBAT] [MOUNT] [MELEE] Trample
[COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] Armor Proficiency (Heavy)
[COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] Armor Proficiency (Light)
[COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] Armor Proficiency (Medium)
[COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] Shield Proficiency
[COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] Shield Proficiency (Tower)
[COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] [WEAPON] Exotic Weapon Proficiency
[COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] [WEAPON] Martial Weapon Proficiency
[COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] [WEAPON] Simple Weapon Proficiency
[COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] [WEAPON] [ACTION] Quick Draw
[COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] [WEAPON] [ATTACK] Greater Weapon Focus
[COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] [WEAPON] [ATTACK] Weapon Focus
[COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] [WEAPON] [DAMAGE] Improved Critical
[COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] [WEAPON] [DAMAGE] Greater Weapon Specialization
[COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] [WEAPON] [DAMAGE] Weapon Specialization
[COMBAT] [RANGE] Deflect Arrows
[COMBAT] [RANGE] Snatch Arrows
[COMBAT] [RANGE] [#ATTACKS] Many Shot
[COMBAT] [RANGE] [#ATTACKS] Rapid Shot
[COMBAT] [RANGE] [ACTION] Rapid Reload
[COMBAT] [RANGE] [ACTION] Shot On The Run
[COMBAT] [RANGE] [ATTACK/DAMAGE] Point Blank Shot
[COMBAT] [RANGE] [COVER] Improved Precise Shot
[COMBAT] [RANGE] [MELEE] Precise Shot
[COMBAT] [RANGE] [RANGE] Far Shot
[COMBAT] [UNARMED] Improved Unarmed Strike
[COMBAT] [UNARMED] Stunning Fist
[COMBAT] [UNARMED] Improved Grapple
[INITIATIVE] Improved Initiative
[MAGIC] [CONCENTRATION] Combat Casting
[MAGIC] [DIVINE] Extra Turning
[MAGIC] [DIVINE] Improved Turning
[MAGIC] [ITEM CREATION] Brew Potion
[MAGIC] [ITEM CREATION] Craft Magic Arms And Armor
[MAGIC] [ITEM CREATION] Craft Rod
[MAGIC] [ITEM CREATION] Craft Staff
[MAGIC] [ITEM CREATION] Craft Wand
[MAGIC] [ITEM CREATION] Craft Wondrous Item
[MAGIC] [ITEM CREATION] Forge Ring
[MAGIC] [ITEM CREATION] Scribe Scroll
[MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] Improved Counterspell
[MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [#CREATURES] Augment Summoning
[MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [SAVE] [B]Greater Spell Focus
[MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [SAVE] [B]Spell Focus
[MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [SR] [B]Greater Spell Penetration
[MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [SR] [B]Spell Penetration
[MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [DAMAGE] Empower Spell
[MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [DAMAGE] Maximize Spell
[MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [DURATION] Extend Spell
[MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [CASTING TIME] Quicken Spell
[MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [COMPONENT] Eschew Materials
[MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [COMPONENT] Natural Spell
[MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [COMPONENT] Silent Spell
[MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [COMPONENT] Still Spell
[MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [RANGE] Enlarge Spell
[MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [SPELL LEVEL] Heighten Spell
[MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [SPELLBOOK] Spell Mastery
[MAGIC] [SKILL BONUS] Magical Aptitude
[MOVE] Run
[SKILL BONUS] Acrobatic
[SKILL BONUS] Agile
[SKILL BONUS] Alertness
[SKILL BONUS] Animal Affinity
[SKILL BONUS] Athletic
[SKILL BONUS] Deceitful
[SKILL BONUS] Deft Hands
[SKILL BONUS] Diligent
[SKILL BONUS] Investigator
[SKILL BONUS] Negotiator
[SKILL BONUS] Nimble Fingers
[SKILL BONUS] Persuasive
[SKILL BONUS] Self-Sufficient
[SKILL BONUS] Skill Focus
[SKILL BONUS] Stealthy
[SPECIAL ABILITY] Improved Familiar
[SPECIAL ABILITY] Leadership
[SPECIAL ABILITY] Track
[STATS] [HITPOINTS] Diehard
[STATS] [HITPOINTS] Endurance
[STATS] [HITPOINTS] Toughness
[STATS] [SAVE] Great Fortitude
[STATS] [SAVE] Iron Will
[STATS] [SAVE] Lightning Reflexes

Some of the Feats don't fit their catagory perfectly. Later, I'll put together a list of "Feats" from the Special Abilities of each Class. They'll also organize into roughly the same catagories.
Haldrik
01-14-04, 07:33 PM The Class Building Engine allows a new Class to determine its hitpoints by using Feat Slots to purchase hitdice. 1 Feat Slot = 1 d8 hitdie. A Class that needs many hitpoints purchases many d8 hitdice, a Class that does not need them purchases fewer d8 hitdice. In this new system, all hitpoints are determined by d8.

According to the old system, hitpoints are determined for different Classes according to different sided hitdice. The hitdice fall into five groups.

Very Good hitpoints use d12: Barbarian
Good hitpoints use d10: Fighter, Paladin
Moderate hitpoints use d8: Cleric, Druid, Ranger
Poor hitpoints use d6: Bard, Monk, Rogue
Very Poor hitpoints use d4: Sorcerer, Wizard

For example: in the old system, the Cleric has Moderate hitpoints and so rolls 1 d8 per level to determine the hitpoints. The Barbarian has Very Good hitpoints and so rolls 1 d12 per level to determine hitpoints.

In the Class Building Engine, the Cleric has Moderate hitpoints and so purchases 1 d8 per level to determine the hitpoints. The hitpoints work out the same in both the old and new systems. However the Barbarian has Very Good hitpoints. In the Class Building Engine, the Barbarian purchases 3 d8 every 2 levels. At first level the Barbarian may purchase 2d8 for 2-16 hitpoints, and at second level the Barbarian may purchase 1 d8 for 1-8 more hitpoints. The hitpoints according to the new system are equivalent to the old system.

The advantage of using Feat Slots to purchase more hitdice is having more hitpoints, of course. The advantage of purchasing few hitdice, is the Feat Slots can be used to purchase other abilities for the class. For example, the Wizard sacrifices hitpoints in order to use the Feat Slots to purchase Spell Feats.

Below are five tables. Each one describes a hitpoint group, ranging from Very Good Hitpoints to Very Poor Hitpoints. The table compares the average hitpoints that the Class Building Engine (8) generates and that the old system (d12 to d4) generates.

The point is, the Class Building Engine makes it easy to determine the appropriate number of hitpoints for a new Class in a fair and balanced way.

VERY GOOD HITPOINTS

Level Number of Average hitpoints Average hitpoints
hitdice per using the new using the old
Level: 3/2 d8 system d12 system

1 2d8 9.0 ( 6.5)
2 d8 13.5 (13.0)
3 2d8 22.5 (19.5)
4 d8 27.0 (26.0)
5 2d8 36.0 (32.5)
6 d8 40.5 (39.0)
7 2d8 49.5 (45.5)
8 d8 54.0 (52.0)
9 2d8 63.0 (58.5)
10 d8 67.5 (65.0)
11 2d8 76.5 (71.5)
12 d8 81.0 (78.0)
13 2d8 90.0 (84.5)
14 d8 94.5 (91.0)
15 2d8 103.5 (97.5)
16 d8 108.0 (104.0)
17 2d8 117.0 (110.5)
18 d8 121.5 (117.0)
19 2d8 130.5 (123.5)
20 d8 135.0 (130.0)

GOOD HITPOINTS

Level Number of Average hitpoints Average hitpoints
hitdice per using the new using the old
Level: 5/4 d8 system d10 system

1 2d8 09.0 (05.5)
2 d8 13.5 (11.0)
3 d8 18.0 (16.5)
4 d8 22.5 (22.0)
5 2d8 31.5 (27.5)
6 d8 36.0 (33.0)
7 d8 40.5 (38.5)
8 d8 45.0 (44.0)
9 2d8 54.0 (49.5)
10 d8 58.5 (55.0)
11 d8 63.0 (60.5)
12 d8 67.5 (66.0)
13 2d8 76.5 (71.5)
14 d8 81.0 (77.0)
15 d8 85.5 (82.5)
16 d8 90.0 (88.0)
17 2d8 99.0 (93.5)
18 d8 103.5 (99.0)
19 d8 108.0 (104.5)
20 d8 112.5 (110.0)

MODERATE HITPOINTS

Level Number of Average hitpoints Average hitpoints
hitdice per using the new using the old
Level: 1 d8 system d8 system

1 d8 4.5 (SAME)
2 d8 09.0 (SAME)
3 d8 13.5 (SAME)
4 d8 18.0 (SAME)
5 d8 22.5 (SAME)
6 d8 27.0 (SAME)
7 d8 31.5 (SAME)
8 d8 36.0 (SAME)
9 d8 40.5 (SAME)
10 d8 45.0 (SAME)
11 d8 49.5 (SAME)
12 d8 54.0 (SAME)
13 d8 58.5 (SAME)
14 d8 63.0 (SAME)
15 d8 67.5 (SAME)
16 d8 72.0 (SAME)
17 d8 76.5 (SAME)
18 d8 81.0 (SAME)
19 d8 85.5 (SAME)
20 d8 90.0 (SAME)

POOR HITPOINTS

Level Number of Average hitpoints Average hitpoints
hitdice per using the new using the old
Level: 3/4 d8 system d6 system

1 d8 4.5 ( 3.5)
2 d8 9.0 ( 7.0)
3 d8 13.5 (10.5)
4 - - - - (14.0)
5 d8 18.0 (17.5)
6 d8 22.5 (21.0)
7 d8 27.0 (24.5)
8 - - - - (28.0)
9 d8 31.5 (31.5)
10 d8 36.0 (35.0)
11 d8 40.5 (38.5)
12 - - - - (42.0)
13 d8 45.0 (45.5)
14 d8 49.5 (49.0)
15 d8 54.0 (52.5)
16 - - - - (56.0)
17 d8 58.5 (59.5)
18 d8 63.0 (63.0)
19 d8 67.5 (66.5)
20 - - - - (70.0)

VERY POOR HITPOINTS

Level Number of Average hitpoints Average hitpoints
hitdice per using the new using the old
Level: 1/2 d8 system d4 system

1 d8 4.5 ( 2.5)
2 - - - - ( 5.0)
3 d8 9.0 ( 7.5)
4 - - - - (10.0)
5 d8 13.5 (12.5)
6 - - - - (15.0)
7 d8 18.0 (17.5)
8 - - - - (20.0)
9 d8 22.5 (22.5)
10 - - - - (25.0)
11 d8 27.0 (27.5)
12 - - - - (30.0)
13 d8 31.5 (32.5)
14 - - - - (35.0)
15 d8 36.0 (37.5)
16 - - - - (40.0)
17 d8 40.5 (42.5)
18 - - - - (45.0)
19 d8 45.0 (47.5)
20 - - - - (50.0)

Using the Class Building Machine makes it easy to increase or decrease the number of hitpoints, by using Feat Slots to purchase d8 hitdice.
FireSpark
01-15-04, 02:25 AM Originally posted by Haldrik
Moreover, the official list of Core Classes sorely lacks both a Swashbuckler and an Arcane Warrior. (The Bard is arcane but not a warrior).

That's cause they're in the Complete Warrior.

And yes, I know I'm being a smart-a**.:D
Kaya Kenobi
01-15-04, 07:14 AM There was a site that had excellent rules for creating a balanced class, but it's lost to me now. Once I find it, I'll post the link.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Haldrik 01-14-04, 06:19 AM	The DMGuide needs a Class Building Engine that lets people design new Player Character Classes, or modify old ones. ALL SPECIAL ABILITIES (from Rage to Quivering Palm) are Feats. A player purchases each Feat using a point system based on Experience Points. For example, the currently flexible Fighter Class needs to be MORE FLEXIBLE. By selecting appropriate Feats, the Fighter's abilities can become those of the Paladin's or of the Ranger's. The Fighter's abilities can even become those of the Barbarian by purchasing more Hitpoints Feats, or even of the Monk by sacrificing Hitpoints to get other Feats! At first level, the Fighter Class chooses which Saving Throw (Fort, Refl, or Will) is the "Good" one. Thus Dex Fighters (Swashbucklers) may prefer a Good Refl save, while standard Con Fighters may prefer a Good Fort save. A spell casting Fighter may want a Good Will save. Those with more than one "Good" save like the Monk spend more Feat points. To some degree the Barbarian, the Ranger, and the Monk are all Dex Fighters but are too specialized to function as a Swashbuckler. Ideally, the Fighter can become anything depending on the selection of Feats. Moreover, the official list of Core Classes sorely lacks both a Swashbuckler and an Arcane Warrior. (The Bard is arcane but not a warrior). The Class Building Machine can generate these with ease. Conversely, some classes may be too specialized to be a Core Class, such as the Monk. (Or even the Ranger because druidry is not obviously relevant to Favored Enemy. Also some people find Favored Enemy morally objectionable bigotry). The Class Building Machine can relax these overly tight Classes to suit the tastes of more people. Even spell casting can organize into Feats! 1 spell slot/day = 1 Spell Feat. The prerequisites would be something like .. one must have at least one spell slot of the preceding spell level, and cannot have more spell slots in the spell level than the number of spell slots in the preceding spell level. .. Also higher level spells may cost more Feat Points. For example, spell levels 1-3 cost 1 Feat, spell levels 4-6 cost 2 Feats, and spell levels 7-9 cost 3 Feats? .. In any case, Spell Feats. To some degree even a Wizard and a Sorcerer is just a Fighter who sacrifices Hitpoint Feats and Combat Feats to accumulate Spell Feats. Not a few Sorcerers and Wizards complaign they do NOT WANT a familiar, making the Class Special Ability a waste. By translating Summon Familiar into a General Feat, the Class Building Machine can easily swap it out for an other Feat that the DM finds more conducive. Finally tinkering with Classes becomes easy, by altering individual Feats with surgical precision without having to overhaul an entire Class. The dialectical forces of Omni-Classing vs Min/Maxing tends to make most classes balanced and functional. The Class Building Machine is a lot like playing Magic: The Gathering. Each Feat is a separate card, and a Player Character Class is a personally built deck. WotC "knights" certain personal decks into official DnD Classes, when they are robust, appeal to a larger audience, and concretize vivid archetypes that are good for role play.
Dunelord 01-14-04, 06:46 AM	I am sure for a point buy it's alright but I just don't see a point to playing D and D if your not going to use levels. I like new classes but going to point buy would just kind of kill the flavor for me. Although the idea of more guidunce on how to build a new class is something I can agree with.
Shoes 01-14-04, 08:01 AM	I did something similiar, but it was with races based off the AD&D Skills & Powers book. I always love when creating a character to be more "open" and "flexiable" so I can have different options to my liking. I had every intention to do a classes version of the Skills and Powers, but I guess you beat me to it, just in a different way.
Hogre 01-14-04, 09:18 AM	There is one reason that this doesn't work. Synergy. Some abilities independently are worthless, but when combined together can form something truley over-powered.
Haldrik 01-14-04, 02:54 PM	Shoes: I always love creating a character to be more "open" and "flexiable" so I can have different options to my liking. I had every intention to do a classes version of the Skills and Powers, but I guess you beat me to it, just in a different way. Add your thoughts here. There's lots to do to make this work. Dunelord: I am sure for a point buy it's alright but I just don't see a point to playing D and D if your not going to use levels. I like new classes but going to point buy would just kind of kill the flavor for me. Although the idea of more guidunce on how to build a new class is something I can agree with. I like levels too, and I want to keep them. They're a good way to measure one Class against an other Class when their abilities have nothing in common. The levels are the measuring cup, while the Feats are what fills up inside them. It's not really different from the way the classes are now. The Class Building Machine just helps give people a sense of how one Class compares with an other. Hogre: There is one reason that this doesn't work. Synergy. This is not the first point based system, and it won't be the last. It's hardly impossible. For example, the card game, Magic: The Gathering, is nothing but synergy. A Class Building Machine can and will work. Also, a Class Building Machine helps make Classes "healthier". For example, some classes are more "front end" where all the powers appear at the beginning in the low levels, but then becomes boringly underpowered in the long run. Or some classes are more "back end", like the Wizard IMO. The low levels are pathetically weak but the high levels are disruptively overpowered. A Class Building Machine ranks the abilities of a Class to help smooth them out across the levels, so that every single level is balanced and a joy to play.
Haldrik 01-14-04, 03:32 PM	I reorganized the official Feat List, just for the sake of my own sanity. Feats: [COMBAT] [ATTACK OF OPPORTUNITY] [#ATTACKS] Combat Reflexes [COMBAT] [ATTACK OF OPPORTUNITY] [DODGE] Mobility [COMBAT] [DODGE] Combat Expertise [COMBAT] [DODGE] Dodge [COMBAT] [MELEE] Blind-Fight [COMBAT] [MELEE] Shield Bash [COMBAT] [MELEE] [#ATTACKS] Cleave [COMBAT] [MELEE] [#ATTACKS] Great Cleave [COMBAT] [MELEE] [#ATTACKS] Whirlwind Attack [COMBAT] [MELEE] [ACTION] Improved Bull Rush [COMBAT] [MELEE] [ACTION] Improved Disarm [COMBAT] [MELEE] [ACTION] Improved Feint [COMBAT] [MELEE] [ACTION] Improved Overrun [COMBAT] [MELEE] [ACTION] Improved Sunder [COMBAT] [MELEE] [ACTION] Improved Trip [COMBAT] [MELEE] [AMBIDEX] [#ATTACKS] Greater Two-Weapon Fighting [COMBAT] [MELEE] [AMBIDEX] [#ATTACKS] Improved Two-Weapon Fighting [COMBAT] [MELEE] [AMBIDEX] [#ATTACKS] Two-Weapon Fighting [COMBAT] [MELEE] [AMBIDEX] [DODGE] Two-Weapon Defense [COMBAT] [MELEE] [ATTACK] Weapon Finesse [COMBAT] [MELEE] [DAMAGE] Power Attack [COMBAT] [MELEE] [MOVE] Spring Attack [COMBAT] [MOUNT] [RANGE] Mounted Archery [COMBAT] [MOUNT] [MELEE] Mounted Combat [COMBAT] [MOUNT] [MOVE] Ride-By Attack [COMBAT] [MOUNT] [DAMAGE] Spirited Charge [COMBAT] [MOUNT] [MELEE] Trample [COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] Armor Proficiency (Heavy) [COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] Armor Proficiency (Light) [COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] Armor Proficiency (Medium) [COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] Shield Proficiency [COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] Shield Proficiency (Tower) [COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] [WEAPON] Exotic Weapon Proficiency [COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] [WEAPON] Martial Weapon Proficiency [COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] [WEAPON] Simple Weapon Proficiency [COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] [WEAPON] [ACTION] Quick Draw [COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] [WEAPON] [ATTACK] Greater Weapon Focus [COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] [WEAPON] [ATTACK] Weapon Focus [COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] [WEAPON] [DAMAGE] Improved Critical [COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] [WEAPON] [DAMAGE] Greater Weapon Specialization [COMBAT] [PROFICIENCY] [WEAPON] [DAMAGE] Weapon Specialization [COMBAT] [RANGE] Deflect Arrows [COMBAT] [RANGE] Snatch Arrows [COMBAT] [RANGE] [#ATTACKS] Many Shot [COMBAT] [RANGE] [#ATTACKS] Rapid Shot [COMBAT] [RANGE] [ACTION] Rapid Reload [COMBAT] [RANGE] [ACTION] Shot On The Run [COMBAT] [RANGE] [ATTACK/DAMAGE] Point Blank Shot [COMBAT] [RANGE] [COVER] Improved Precise Shot [COMBAT] [RANGE] [MELEE] Precise Shot [COMBAT] [RANGE] [RANGE] Far Shot [COMBAT] [UNARMED] Improved Unarmed Strike [COMBAT] [UNARMED] Stunning Fist [COMBAT] [UNARMED] Improved Grapple [INITIATIVE] Improved Initiative [MAGIC] [CONCENTRATION] Combat Casting [MAGIC] [DIVINE] Extra Turning [MAGIC] [DIVINE] Improved Turning [MAGIC] [ITEM CREATION] Brew Potion [MAGIC] [ITEM CREATION] Craft Magic Arms And Armor [MAGIC] [ITEM CREATION] Craft Rod [MAGIC] [ITEM CREATION] Craft Staff [MAGIC] [ITEM CREATION] Craft Wand [MAGIC] [ITEM CREATION] Craft Wondrous Item [MAGIC] [ITEM CREATION] Forge Ring [MAGIC] [ITEM CREATION] Scribe Scroll [MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] Improved Counterspell [MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [#CREATURES] Augment Summoning [MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [SAVE] [B]Greater Spell Focus [MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [SAVE] [B]Spell Focus [MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [SR] [B]Greater Spell Penetration [MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [SR] [B]Spell Penetration [MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [DAMAGE] Empower Spell [MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [DAMAGE] Maximize Spell [MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [DURATION] Extend Spell [MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [CASTING TIME] Quicken Spell [MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [COMPONENT] Eschew Materials [MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [COMPONENT] Natural Spell [MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [COMPONENT] Silent Spell [MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [COMPONENT] Still Spell [MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [RANGE] Enlarge Spell [MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [SPELL LEVEL] Heighten Spell [MAGIC] [METAMAGIC] [SPELLBOOK] Spell Mastery [MAGIC] [SKILL BONUS] Magical Aptitude [MOVE] Run [SKILL BONUS] Acrobatic [SKILL BONUS] Agile [SKILL BONUS] Alertness [SKILL BONUS] Animal Affinity [SKILL BONUS] Athletic [SKILL BONUS] Deceitful [SKILL BONUS] Deft Hands [SKILL BONUS] Diligent [SKILL BONUS] Investigator [SKILL BONUS] Negotiator [SKILL BONUS] Nimble Fingers [SKILL BONUS] Persuasive [SKILL BONUS] Self-Sufficient [SKILL BONUS] Skill Focus [SKILL BONUS] Stealthy [SPECIAL ABILITY] Improved Familiar [SPECIAL ABILITY] Leadership [SPECIAL ABILITY] Track [STATS] [HITPOINTS] Diehard [STATS] [HITPOINTS] Endurance [STATS] [HITPOINTS] Toughness [STATS] [SAVE] Great Fortitude [STATS] [SAVE] Iron Will [STATS] [SAVE] Lightning Reflexes Some of the Feats don't fit their catagory perfectly. Later, I'll put together a list of "Feats" from the Special Abilities of each Class. They'll also organize into roughly the same catagories.
Haldrik 01-14-04, 07:33 PM	The Class Building Engine allows a new Class to determine its hitpoints by using Feat Slots to purchase hitdice. 1 Feat Slot = 1 d8 hitdie. A Class that needs many hitpoints purchases many d8 hitdice, a Class that does not need them purchases fewer d8 hitdice. In this new system, all hitpoints are determined by d8. According to the old system, hitpoints are determined for different Classes according to different sided hitdice. The hitdice fall into five groups. Very Good hitpoints use d12: Barbarian Good hitpoints use d10: Fighter, Paladin Moderate hitpoints use d8: Cleric, Druid, Ranger Poor hitpoints use d6: Bard, Monk, Rogue Very Poor hitpoints use d4: Sorcerer, Wizard For example: in the old system, the Cleric has Moderate hitpoints and so rolls 1 d8 per level to determine the hitpoints. The Barbarian has Very Good hitpoints and so rolls 1 d12 per level to determine hitpoints. In the Class Building Engine, the Cleric has Moderate hitpoints and so purchases 1 d8 per level to determine the hitpoints. The hitpoints work out the same in both the old and new systems. However the Barbarian has Very Good hitpoints. In the Class Building Engine, the Barbarian purchases 3 d8 every 2 levels. At first level the Barbarian may purchase 2d8 for 2-16 hitpoints, and at second level the Barbarian may purchase 1 d8 for 1-8 more hitpoints. The hitpoints according to the new system are equivalent to the old system. The advantage of using Feat Slots to purchase more hitdice is having more hitpoints, of course. The advantage of purchasing few hitdice, is the Feat Slots can be used to purchase other abilities for the class. For example, the Wizard sacrifices hitpoints in order to use the Feat Slots to purchase Spell Feats. Below are five tables. Each one describes a hitpoint group, ranging from Very Good Hitpoints to Very Poor Hitpoints. The table compares the average hitpoints that the Class Building Engine (8) generates and that the old system (d12 to d4) generates. The point is, the Class Building Engine makes it easy to determine the appropriate number of hitpoints for a new Class in a fair and balanced way. VERY GOOD HITPOINTS Level Number of Average hitpoints Average hitpoints hitdice per using the new using the old Level: 3/2 d8 system d12 system 1 2d8 9.0 ( 6.5) 2 d8 13.5 (13.0) 3 2d8 22.5 (19.5) 4 d8 27.0 (26.0) 5 2d8 36.0 (32.5) 6 d8 40.5 (39.0) 7 2d8 49.5 (45.5) 8 d8 54.0 (52.0) 9 2d8 63.0 (58.5) 10 d8 67.5 (65.0) 11 2d8 76.5 (71.5) 12 d8 81.0 (78.0) 13 2d8 90.0 (84.5) 14 d8 94.5 (91.0) 15 2d8 103.5 (97.5) 16 d8 108.0 (104.0) 17 2d8 117.0 (110.5) 18 d8 121.5 (117.0) 19 2d8 130.5 (123.5) 20 d8 135.0 (130.0) GOOD HITPOINTS Level Number of Average hitpoints Average hitpoints hitdice per using the new using the old Level: 5/4 d8 system d10 system 1 2d8 09.0 (05.5) 2 d8 13.5 (11.0) 3 d8 18.0 (16.5) 4 d8 22.5 (22.0) 5 2d8 31.5 (27.5) 6 d8 36.0 (33.0) 7 d8 40.5 (38.5) 8 d8 45.0 (44.0) 9 2d8 54.0 (49.5) 10 d8 58.5 (55.0) 11 d8 63.0 (60.5) 12 d8 67.5 (66.0) 13 2d8 76.5 (71.5) 14 d8 81.0 (77.0) 15 d8 85.5 (82.5) 16 d8 90.0 (88.0) 17 2d8 99.0 (93.5) 18 d8 103.5 (99.0) 19 d8 108.0 (104.5) 20 d8 112.5 (110.0) MODERATE HITPOINTS Level Number of Average hitpoints Average hitpoints hitdice per using the new using the old Level: 1 d8 system d8 system 1 d8 4.5 (SAME) 2 d8 09.0 (SAME) 3 d8 13.5 (SAME) 4 d8 18.0 (SAME) 5 d8 22.5 (SAME) 6 d8 27.0 (SAME) 7 d8 31.5 (SAME) 8 d8 36.0 (SAME) 9 d8 40.5 (SAME) 10 d8 45.0 (SAME) 11 d8 49.5 (SAME) 12 d8 54.0 (SAME) 13 d8 58.5 (SAME) 14 d8 63.0 (SAME) 15 d8 67.5 (SAME) 16 d8 72.0 (SAME) 17 d8 76.5 (SAME) 18 d8 81.0 (SAME) 19 d8 85.5 (SAME) 20 d8 90.0 (SAME) POOR HITPOINTS Level Number of Average hitpoints Average hitpoints hitdice per using the new using the old Level: 3/4 d8 system d6 system 1 d8 4.5 ( 3.5) 2 d8 9.0 ( 7.0) 3 d8 13.5 (10.5) 4 - - - - (14.0) 5 d8 18.0 (17.5) 6 d8 22.5 (21.0) 7 d8 27.0 (24.5) 8 - - - - (28.0) 9 d8 31.5 (31.5) 10 d8 36.0 (35.0) 11 d8 40.5 (38.5) 12 - - - - (42.0) 13 d8 45.0 (45.5) 14 d8 49.5 (49.0) 15 d8 54.0 (52.5) 16 - - - - (56.0) 17 d8 58.5 (59.5) 18 d8 63.0 (63.0) 19 d8 67.5 (66.5) 20 - - - - (70.0) VERY POOR HITPOINTS Level Number of Average hitpoints Average hitpoints hitdice per using the new using the old Level: 1/2 d8 system d4 system 1 d8 4.5 ( 2.5) 2 - - - - ( 5.0) 3 d8 9.0 ( 7.5) 4 - - - - (10.0) 5 d8 13.5 (12.5) 6 - - - - (15.0) 7 d8 18.0 (17.5) 8 - - - - (20.0) 9 d8 22.5 (22.5) 10 - - - - (25.0) 11 d8 27.0 (27.5) 12 - - - - (30.0) 13 d8 31.5 (32.5) 14 - - - - (35.0) 15 d8 36.0 (37.5) 16 - - - - (40.0) 17 d8 40.5 (42.5) 18 - - - - (45.0) 19 d8 45.0 (47.5) 20 - - - - (50.0) Using the Class Building Machine makes it easy to increase or decrease the number of hitpoints, by using Feat Slots to purchase d8 hitdice.
FireSpark 01-15-04, 02:25 AM	Originally posted by Haldrik Moreover, the official list of Core Classes sorely lacks both a Swashbuckler and an Arcane Warrior. (The Bard is arcane but not a warrior). That's cause they're in the Complete Warrior. And yes, I know I'm being a smart-a**.:D
Kaya Kenobi 01-15-04, 07:14 AM	There was a site that had excellent rules for creating a balanced class, but it's lost to me now. Once I find it, I'll post the link.